Dave Jones. 0579586
JERSEY’S political system ‘is little more than an elected dictatorship’ according to a member of Guernsey’s Policy Council.
Housing minister Dave Jones condemned Jersey’s fledgling executive government system as a failure.
‘Jersey went for a form of executive government that clearly is not working, nor does it have a general election in the true sense of the word. It has a series of elections for officials, deputies and senators.
‘Guernsey has a system which gives the people government from the bottom up, not the top down, and the real control over policy remains firmly on the floor of the assembly, not, as in Jersey, behind closed doors by a handful of ministers.
‘To be blunt, the Jersey system is little more than an elected dictatorship.’
Deputy Jones made his comments in response to statements by a Jersey senator, Stuart Syvret, urging Guernsey voters to embrace a party political system akin to the UK.
People would then know for what they were voting, claimed the senator.
‘I have seldom heard a bigger distortion of the truth,’ said Deputy Jones, an outspoken critic of the UK government.
‘The British people did not vote to go to war in Iraq, nor did they expect to be cheated out of the promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
‘They didn’t even get a say in who is their present prime minister.
‘So the idea that democracy is better served by a party system is inherent nonsense.
‘The whole system is flawed.
‘Because of the first past the post system, a political party can find itself in power with a small percentage of public support.’
Deputy Jones said he would not normally comment on Jersey politics, but felt able to do so to balance Senator Syvret’s views.
Deputy Jones said party politics could not be imposed on a community. He said it could only grow from within and islanders would decide whether they wanted it or not.
‘It was tried in Jersey and the people of Jersey showed overwhelmingly that they wanted no part of it.
‘I don’t think we need to take any lessons from Jersey on this matter.’
He added that Senator Syvret’s comments that neither island was equipped to handle a crisis were also absurd.
‘The islands’ governments managed even being occupied by an invading army, which is something the UK has not had to do, certainly for many hundreds of years.
‘Yes, we need a sewage plant and a waste management system and both of those will be put in place in due course, but to suggest that we have to change the whole way the islands are governed because we take longer to make decisions than other jurisdictions is, quite frankly, barking.’
Article posted on 26th August, 2008 - 1.00pm
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17 Article Comments
Guernsey is far from perfect but I must agree with Deputy Jones in his reluctance to blindly follow the UK. Despite our imperfections, we are a stable and happy community. Do we really want to emulate the UK system? Their government seems to be unloved, ineffective and, to a large extent, controlled by Brussels.
Did I vote for Lyndon Trott to be CM? Or for the mebers of the Policy Council? Or for major issues such as Zero Ten? When is consencus politics democratic when our Chief Minister has admitted that he has to use ‘force of personality’ to get ideas into action?
It is quite clear that Dave Jones has no love of the UK Government, but he obviously doesn’t understand how it works. You vote for a party manifesto, not a Prime Minister. His nitpicking over the referendum just highlights his UKIP allies, the Treaty is not the Constitution it was, and it contains several get out clauses for nation states, but all that is conveniently forgotten in all the tired rhetoric of his kind (my personal favourite being the unaudited accounts - not sure exactly how ensuring rigourous accounting practices is evidence of wrongdoing, after all our accounts are ‘not fit for purpose’).
I don’t think that the party system should be imported wholesale, but I do think that that like minded politicians should form an umbrella of policies in order to help the electorate determine the direction of government.
Where is Dave Jones’ vision? With whom does he consort with? Are we truly to believe that the individuals we are entrusting to make decisions on our behalf don’t have personal motivations and vested interests?
What are our deputies doing to make the process of governance democratic and transparent?
Let us say no to party politics and yes to Island wide voting. Do not forget in the last election in Jersey they tried party politics and Syvret who had sympathies with a group led by Ted Vibert and sixteen other people.The party was called the JDA but when it came to the elections they all bailed out and sat as individuals as they knew there was not the support from the public.
Lawrence your friend Richard Murphy put out what Dave Jones said on his blog and agreed with him by saying “It is very hard to argue with that”.
Just like New Labour and Britain the people in Jersey want the cabinet out as it represents everything Dave Jones has outlined.
Dominic
Criticising other systems whilst ours is mired in similar problems is not constructive. Dave Jones does a lot of criticising. As for the Jersey quote, of course you can’t argue with it, and it is the same as what Sen. Syvret is saying.
At least Syvret is trying to find a solution.
IWV will only work if we end up voting for a manifesto that will be stuck to and debated on. It has already been agreed that there is a general split in the States, let’s get it formalised and get the public debating solutions to issues rather than bickering personalities.
To compare Guernsey politics with the New Labour machine is just scaremongering. Something that Dave Jones does very well.
Lawrence you make an interesting point. You talk about “formalising the general split in the States” but its nowhere near as simple as that. Whilst members of the House may be split on the core zero-10 issue and its implications, it does not mean that they share the same views on many other issues. Guernsey politics is nowhere near as clear-cut as that and it would be impossible to create two distinct political parties based on one core issue.
if the people of jersey were allowed to vote for there chief minister then syvret would come top every time,a pity we have nobody as good as him in guernsey.were just stuck with the likes of jones and trott ,jones is an associate or member of ukip so he already is involved in party politics.i dont understand how jones can be critical of not being allowed to vote for a prime minister or going to war,we cant vote for chief minister or zero ten,or government buisness plan,these things are just forced upon us without any vote,the only time they want us to vote is to put them back in power,and then you dont know what to vote for because they all say similar things.
David
Of course it is not as simple as simply joining a team, but it would inspire some political debate involving the causes and effects of certain policy decisions, over generations rather than the next 18 months budget projections.
If it became an ideological issue then we would see a more passionate to-ing and fro-ing of debate and a chance for the public to really understand what it means to make these major decisions.
It’s hard to really criticise the general performance of this sort of government. They all do the best they can according to their conscience, or wallet, but in this age of technology and education and instant feedback, the public are ready to examine a wider plan, a bigger picture.
We get a taste of an Idea with our CM’s sandwich-board tours and others have broad ideologies that can be easily recognised, but what of the others? What do they do? What do they stand for?
If a pro Zero-10 supporter also supports, say, a population cap, then he needs to come out explain and provide details on how this could work. Maybe there are others like that. The start of Party Politics would no doubt be messy, but the underlying truth is that the public need to know what their vote stands for.
Gone are the days of voting for the vicar’s son or for the outspoken meat-draw organiser or the popular fisherman. Guernsey needs to have a grasp on long term visions.
Let’s have something to vote for, whatever your political passion, but let’s have passion as they do on the Continent. It matters.
Lawrence you seem to miss the point why did Syvret not take his chance at the last elections the reason was that he wanted to be able to do his own thing without following a party line. If Syvret had kept faith with the JDA it would have kept all the sitting politicians together but the minute he decided to stand alone the whole group broke up.
Dave Jones has got to be applauded as unlike so many other Politicians he is a straight and not afraid to speak his mind.
If you look on the Jersey blog he has had support for what he has said apart from comments by Deputy De Lisle trying to get brownie points.
As I understand it, there is nothing to prevent a group of like-minded people from forming a political party in either Bailiwick if they were so minded.
The perception that the current States can be characterised as having a “general split” is interesting but open to manipulation by those who seek to persuade islanders that they would be the beneficiaries of a different model of governance.
I have no doubt that most members would see themselves as ‘centrist’ if forced to admit a stance and so the old fashioned left-right model would probably not apply in Guernsey.
But there is a need to get away from the personal manifesto that says nothing and delivers little.
‘Working for the best of the Island’ is meaningless without clear strategies.
The elctorate need to be able to see what people stand for, and armed with that knowledge, would vote them on or off depending on their performance.
Dep Jones would probably score quite highly because of his profile, and yes Dominic you are right, we all know where we stand with him, but how is he applying thispublic profile to the business of office? The public reduced his vote considerably at the last election and yet he keeps his top job. Worse still with Trott and Flouquet.
Anything would be better than allowing the public’s fourth and fifth choices getting into powerful positions. We didn’t vote them there.
Maybe the personal manifestos should have a portion devoted to “Who out of the eligible members that may get reelected would you vote for the top jobs?” I wonder…
Reference has been made to Dave Jones and UKIP, Dave is somebody that believes in democracy and freedom which is why many people from the Conservative party joined UKIP to fight the never ending dictatorial laws and directives passed by Europe many times not in Britain’s interests. Take the Islands experience in 1997 when they would not confer with the outgoing Conservative Party and Jersey and Guernsey tried to cosy up to New Labour. Jersey even used the Labour biased Consultants Shandwick a very pro EU company headed up at the time by Colin Byrne who was also a leading light with Britain in Europe and look where that useless energy and cost ended. It was even reported in the Sunday Business with photographs
A good example of a small country sticking up for itself and using people like Christopher Booker, Lord Pearson, Nigel Farage, and many Conservative Shadow Ministers was Gibraltar their Chief Minister Peter Caruana won the day hands down to the embarrassment of Jack Straw .Peter Caruana also proved the theory of shouting from the roof tops does pay.
Sir Andrew Turnbull a good friend of Brigadier Cowgill and one time top Civil Servant savaged Brown for Stalinist tactics did never declare a love for New Labour. When new Labour came into power in 1997 most experienced Politicians, Civil Servants advised the Islands through many residents to make a stand. Brigadier Cowgill a frequent vistor to Guernsey and a man with such wonderful high level contacts confronted Dawn Primarolo and with the aid of Lord Pearson and many former Cabinet Ministers often fired shots across New Labour’s bows.
Most Politicians and Journalists of National Newspapers I know would not agree with Mr Parker and what did our Chief Minister have to worry about attending the Conservative Conference? What have New Labour done for our Islands?
Some of the Overseas territories were surprised how the Islands gave in so easily and one Governor of one of the large Islands at a book launch told how many Conservative Shadow Ministers and former Cabinet Ministers they were consulting. So keep the good work up Dave the last eleven years has taught us some valuable lessons.
Dominic
Cowgill is only interested in Big Business. His opinions and those of his organisation mean nothing to the ordinary people of Guernsey. What’s good for the big boys has been proven time and time again to be bad for the majority.
If Jones is subscribing to this lot then we have a lot to worry about.
All attempts at resisting the Corps running the Island for its own interest must be taken.
I presume you are writing from Jersey, that well know home of democracy and good governance. Just because Jones makes the obvious statement that that sort of executive government doesn’t work doesn’t mean that falling on the crutches of the manipulative and highly monied lobbyists of the rabid imperialist megacorps is the right thing to do for the Islands.
The UK is no longer a Democracy and Jersey is following suit - this will result in misery/high crime rate as the greedy will call the tune influenced by big business.
Lawrence for your information Cowgill and some Guernsey residents organised with the help of Lord Pearson people like Lord Waddington and others to challenge the Labour Governments total disrespect for the Channel Islands. As somebody that spends quite an amount of time between Guernsey and Monaco the people you refer as the megacorps are the only people apart from the local Politicians that have the muscle and capability to protect these Islands as opposed to your friend Murphy and the Guardian contributors that would have us all back to days gone bye with the finance industry closed down.
Dominic
It’s not about closing the finance industry down. There is no reason why Guernsey can’t have a thriving finance industry and play a part in some sort of global tax harmony. After all, we are always being told how our finance houses are unrivalled in technical excellence.
No, this is about not letting the people that benefit the most from these rules and these games to have any more say over the political direction of these islands. We can only call ourselves true to the majority if this minority have no say in government short of their electoral right.
Unfortunately they do have a say, maybe not directly, but the more you invite wealthy minorities, the more likely they will end up at the top of the local pile. Pulling the strings in their favour.
Of course party politics would not prevent this scenario, indeed you only have to look at the Tory donor Ashcroft and the fact that his office is bigger than Cameron’s, and is considered the power behind the throne. Yet he has, until recently, been resisting to change his Belizian domicile. What’s he been up to I wonder?
Same goes with all the other greasy rich who buy into politics to change the shape of the world around them.
So the rules have to be changed to prevent this. With party politics, strict rules can be made to bind, along with an ombudsman to independently assess. We’re not talking Westminster.
Resistance to change is damaging the Islands.
What a hypocrite! How can he say “they didn’t even get a say in who is their present prime minister” when he endorses the current selection process for Guernsey’s chief minister? Lyndon Trott barely scraped in at the General Election, he certainly doesn’t have popular support!
We don’t even get any say about who makes up the policy council, we just have to make a stab in the dark by voting for the independent who is more likely to vote our way (though many candidates are vague flip floppers).
In the last Government we had a zero-10 tax strategy implemented (which placed a serious imposition to future public spending plans) without letting us vote for it; they implemented student loans and they intended to give planning permission on Belle Greve without our say so. The only way we can oppose any of this is by fighting against a Government that is meant to work for us; once they’re elected they can do whatever they like without public support for four years.
Democracy in Guernsey? What a joke.