POLICE are investigating after a baby was attacked in his buggy in Creasey’s coffee shop.
The seven-month-old boy sustained a suspected broken nose and needed hospital treatment after being kicked in the face.
The horrifying assault happened after the youngster, who was with his parents, brothers and sisters on a pre-school late breakfast treat, started whimpering to be fed.
The noise appeared to have provoked an 18-year-old local, who approached the baby, lifted a foot and stamped a heel into his face.
The force of the blow overturned the buggy as well as damaging the cartilage in the little boy’s nose and cutting the inside of his mouth.
Medical personnel told the family the child was fortunate to have been strapped into his buggy and wearing thick clothes, which absorbed some of the impact. Lacerations inside his mouth were also minimised because he has only one tooth.
He is making a good recovery, but his nose cannot be treated because he is so young.
Police are not prosecuting the attacker because the person is profoundly autistic and was apparently back in Guernsey for Christmas with family.
The parents of the injured baby were reluctant to discuss the matter when approached by the Guernsey Press.
However, as word about the attack spread, it appeared that a similar but not so serious incident had occurred the day before at Le Friquet Plant Centre’s cafe when an 18-month-old made a similar noise.
The family of the seven-month-old have questioned whether supervision levels were adequate.
The parents of the assailant, who have not been identified, had reportedly offered to pay the medical costs associated with the little boy’s treatment but his family say that is not the case.
They understand it is a delicate issue but finally agreed to go public because the version of events circulating had become distorted.
They have not been approached, or apologised to, by the parents of the 18-year-old since the incident earlier this week.
The police confirmed they had attended the scene at Creasey’s.
A statement of complaint, which could have led to a prosecution, was never made by the parents of the seven-month-old and no charges have been brought.
‘They understand it was a difficult situation and that the person had difficulties,’ said a spokesman.
He said that while incidents such as these were particularly rare, action was immediately taken and a Social Services inter-agency strategy meeting was held.
‘Where there is a safety concern, actions can be put in place to reduce any danger to the public in the future. Actions have been taken and they were the best, given the circumstances,’ he said.
Article posted on 10th January, 2009 - 9.30am
160 Article Comments
This story is awful and my thoughts go out to the family involved.
I think it is disgusting that the attacker isnt being prosecuted just because he is autistic. If thats the case then his parents or guardian should be prosecuted on his behalf.
If he is “profoundly” autistic, why wasnt he being supervised by an adult. He shouldnt have been in a situation that he could have caused damage if he was so ill. People that have psychlogical problems still get prosecuted in court and this should be the same no matter what the illness is. If an offence has been committed then someone has to be held responsible.
How do I know that he wont strike again when I am out with any of my children. His parents or guardian should be with him at all times if he is so vulnerable and the fact that they weren’t shows neglect.
As i said before an offence is an offence.
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I can’t believe the police aren’t prosecutng over this! What will he do next then?
He must be punished or the message he will get is that he will be able to do what ever he chooses due to the fact that he is autistic.
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I would say thats very inhuman to treat a little baby like this.
Agree that the 18 year old boy is autistic but that doesnt mean he can break the law.
Autism is a condition rather than a disorder.
This guy is a danger to the society and should be taken to some special care.
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Would the police prosecute my boyfriend if he kicked the autistic 18 year old MAN in his face? Because that’s what would happen if he dared to kick our 5 month old baby girl in the face.
He’s 18 years of age, which doesn’t make him a boy. He shouldn’t be allowed out in public if this is what happens or he should be accompanied at all times.
Have his parents or guardians apologised to the family involved? What about the baby who would have been obviously traumatised mentally not to mention the pain he felt physically, does his family not deserve an apology?
I think it’s disgusting that the police aren’t taking any action, but that’s to be expected from Guernsey police, they do what suits when it suits them!
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If the attacker is too ill to be held responsible for his actions he should be in secure accommodation where he can do no harm. Is there no provision for preventative detention in the mental health law?
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If that was my baby after i got over the initial shock i think i would have hit him back.
Allegedly this wasnt the first time. if he was unsupervised then why? and if small children make him react like that then keep him away. this is absolutely disgraceful.
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i was shocked to read this,that poor little baby.as u guys have said an offence is an offence.being a parent myself i would have thrown the little s*** out the window,if it had been my child.what is this island comeing to.thats disgusting and i cant belive theres going to be no further action!what sort of message is that sending out?about 10 years ago i got arrested for smokeing a joint,and being in possesion of a small amount.had i hurt anyone?no was i a danger to the public?no yet i was arrested and put in prison over the weekend!i hope the little baby is doing well,and the family after this horrific attack.
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this is bad, just because the 18 yr old has sommit wrong does nt mean he can get away with wat he has done, if that was my child i would most certainly of been hapy to have him takin to court he still nds to ko right from wrong
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I think it’s absolutely disgusting that the police will not be prosecuting this boy. Whilst I do have sympathy for his condition, what he has done to that poor little boy is inexcuseable, if his condition was that bad, then I agree with James, he should be in care and as he is quite clearly a threat.
Despite his condition, I am ashamed to admit I wish a something to happen to him so he feels the pain that poor baby must be feeling.
I have a great deal of respect for this baby’s parents who did not attack this vicious nasty boy for what he did to their son, and I feel absolutely disgusted and ashamed in our island that they will not get justice for their innocent son’s attack.
To the parents of the little boy – I hope your son is ok dispite no doubt being in a lot of pain and I hope your other children have not been too badly affected by the attack, I wish your son a quick recovery.
To the police – shame on you. If this creature is too mentally ill to prosecute, then you should ensure he is in special care not let his actions go unpunished in some way
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I’m a mother of 3 children,and i don’t believe that parents are always to blame for what there children do,but in this case they should of made sure this lad was supervised at all times,and should be prosocuted on his behalf,as they should take a portion of the blame, if not all of it the lad can’t take the punishment himself.
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If the parents had had paid more attention to their screaming child I doubt this would have happened. How many coffee shop visits have been ruined by unruly children?
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this is sick how could a 18yr old do this to a baby who is only 7 months old an get away with it thats out of order. i have a 15 months old an if that happen to her well i wouldnt like to say. guernsey is gettin worse no one is safe not even our children
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Does that mean that if you have a diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder you are immune to the law? There are so many kids these days with ASD or ADHD god help us!
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No excuses,this autistic ADULT should be put away for life ,never to get near the public again especially children .He should be prosecuted and made to pay for his inhuman treatment of a tiny child who cannot defend itself!!!!!!
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Same old story. If you break the law and have a ‘condition’ in Guernsey then nine times out of ten a judge will feel sorry for you in court. The police, however, have gone the extra mile. Unbelievable. The individual concerned should be prosecuted. Little s***bag should be put in the stocks and taught a lesson.
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any chance of his photo please or a name because the last thing i want is to go to town or whereever and my daugher starts crying for this little sxxt to come over and do that to her. I would like to know who he is so that i can ensure my children are kept well away.
He is 18 therefore an adult so the law should treat him as such. So he has a condition, so what. It still does not excuse what he has done. He should not be out in public if this is what he does. Can we assume that it was him that kicked the 18 month old at old butterfly center!!! Not the first time he has done this we are told WTF why is he even allowed out on his own or without a warning sign. He should be punished for what he did.
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This is absolutely disgusting and horrifying. He should be locked up before he does any more harm. I’d have knocked him sideways if he touched my child.
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i think the guernsey police need to pull their fingers out an do the job properly. If one of the babys parents had retaliated and kick him back in the face they would have been takin to court but its ok for him to get away with just because he is autistic that is so wrong. My heart goes out to the babys family. If anyone else reads this i say we start a petition an get that 18yr old man bought to justice cos next time he chooses to attack someone they might not pull through.
I also want to say the guernsey police make me sick to busy aressting people for swearing an silly things like that and when something serious like this happens they turn a blind eye they are ment to be there to help not to turn their backs on a serious case like this…..
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Would the Police have brought charges if this very dangerous young man had been smoking a joint at the time he was putting the boot into this poor baby ? ,or if this child belonged to say er…..a policeman ? This case should be looked at again. He could KILL next time.
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….and what will the police do then ?????????
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………..oh and has the baby had to pay the cost of the treatment at the hospital ??
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To the commenting mob, perhaps you could put your flaming torches down for a minute and read the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism
Nothing is black and white, not saying what happened can be written off, but I am just as disturbed by the comments here as I am by the incident itself.
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If he has a condition making it “normal” for him to be provoked he shouldnt be outside in public. there is no excuse for this. The 18 year old should have to pay for what he did.
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ah, so sad for the baby. thankfully it seems that he will be ok. the 18 year old autistic that stomped him seems to have an adversion to noise. It is very painful and he was possibly trying to push the ‘button’ that would turn it off. I have a student that will stomp on another when he starts to cry. Im going to see if he will wear earphones to muffle the sounds. I think he even hears the buzz of the florescents and towards the end of the morning he has just had enough
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Having two kids myself I completely understand the reaction of all parents here, but also what about the parent or gaurdian of the young 18 year old, he is 18 and by law legally repsonsible, however he obviously has not got appropriate care or supervision, is this because parents, who may be elderly now and had perhaps more of a challenge than average, cant afford somebody to look after their man child? Autism is not a disease. These events are the results of lots of little things going wrong all at the same time. Unfortunately it sounds like a horrendous experience for the family of the poor little baby, and if the parent of the young man was there not great for them. Lets hope the little one heals and remember little of it and the older one gets the supervision and perhaps some level of punishment according to his awareness. This is not an easy one for the police to judge.
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Albi you have completely contradicted yourself.
On the one hand you make statements such as “whats the island coming too”, and “what sort of messages does it send out”, “it’s disgusting theres going to be no further action”.
But then you state that when you broke the law, and no doubt you were fully aware what you were doing was against the law, complain that action was taken against you and that your civil liberties were taken away from you for a weekend. You broke a law and action was taken against you, and it sent out a message to both you and the rest of the public.
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As the Mother of an Autistic child I personally would not put my autistic child in a situation that they could not cope with, so where were the carers at this time? When you have an autistic child you have to take responsibility for them at all times, it’s hard but that’s the hand that’s been dealt – i agree with Guernsey Girl that it shows neglect that carers were not present when they should have been.
When someone is autistic they are not abnormal or mental or a retard they are wired up differently to what is classed as “normal”, not an excuse but a fact.
I worry a huge amount about my child when they are older especially as to whether they would be accepted into today’s society – but I would also say that although my child has this condition very severely they know right from wrong and we walk away from a situation that they aren’t comfortable in.
Something obviously went wrong in this situation and the carers were to blame and should take responsibility – not every autistic person would react like this individual towards a small child.
To the family of the baby involved i hope you all recover soon and that justice will be done so as this situation will not be allowed to happen again – Guernsey Police should do something.
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Whilst I acknowledge that the attacks on both of these babies were outrageous and being a parent myself I am shocked and appalled by these assaults. The press has once again turned these incidents into a witch-hunt which lets be honest the press will because that is what it does better and shame on the Editor. However, I am ashamed to say that some of the comments listed here are just wrong.
The parents of the babies concerned have not pressed charges nor did they go to the press because they correctly thought that this action was the best road to go down. The adult/adults who carried out these attacks (if the same adult carried out both assaults that is) does have a serious disability. I suggest that those who know nothing about autism read up on it and then your opinions and judgments will I am sure change. One can assume the parents of these adults must be going out of their mind with worry and desperation they know that their child is not the vicious drooling monster who abuses children, which the press has made them out to be. One would hope this thread, along with the trash the press wrote does not stop the acceptance in our community of all children and adults with any form of disability for I feel the Press in its infinite lousy wisdom has set back the rights of those with a learning disability decades. Perhaps the editor should have used his brain and not ran with this appalling story and instead put the woes of the economy and unemployed stats on the front page instead of bringing out the lynch mobs.
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if they can let him off for doing that then the police might aswell go and let everyone else out of prision i think the law should stand for everyone even if u got a illness. if he cant be trusted out in public then he should have a care worker with him everywhere he goes. if he had done that to my son i would have given him more than a broken nose u can tell that boys dad wasnt around coz that would have happened and im sure i read that tis is the second time he has stamped on a childs head something needs to be done coz if it not then they might aswell flush all the laws dwn the toliet
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My thoughts exactly Ted. Why isn’t this 18 year old kept away from the public.
This is a disgraceful act on a poor defenceless baby and I feel so sorry for the little boy. My thoughts are with the baby and his parents…..get well soon xx
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This is yet another case of the Guernsey law system being a complete & utter joke… THe police wonder why no-one has any respect for them?!?! Dont make me laugh…
If this guy is capeable of this then he should be supervised at all times – his gaurdions are to blame then…. somebody needs to be punished for this disgusting assault.
I risk a backlash by these comments, but if an unsupervised dog attacks a child then the owner is prosecuted…
This vile attacker should consider himself very lucky… I have a 3 month old daughter & I can tell you now – if anyone kicked her in the face in town, then they would not be around to face charges… regardless as to whether they are mentally ill, black, white, male, female, young or old… I would do anything to protect her…
My deepest sympathys go out to the family of the little girl… My heart sank when I read this story & I cannot begin to imagine what they went through..
Words cannot explain how much this attack sickens me & the fact that the guy is going to get away with it really makes me think…
Do I really want to bring up my children in Guernsey?? Which way to the airport please??
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Is David for real (Jan 10 5.29pm). I can’t believe someone could make such a comment.
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OK he should be arrested I agree but then he should be sectioned not fined or put in prison.
Basically he needs forced mental health treatment and not released until he is safe.
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Peter Burtenshaw I just cannot believe your comment,what planet did you say you came from??.Get real for godsake man!! A baby is stompped on his head and you make excuses for his attacker ? SHAME ON YOU ! And shame on this person’s parents too for having no control.If this attack had happened here on the mainland he would be in prison….make no mistake there!
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Roger Curt, I think that David is just pointing out the irritation some of us feel at noisy babies or badly behaved children when we are trying to have a quiet drink. I’d like parents to keep their delightful offspring at home until they can be quiet.
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Dan I think the difference between smoking a joint and stomping on a babys head are worlds apart …dont you ???
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This is disgusting!
Iv dealt with Autistic children, yes limited dealing, but stil have a bit of experience. It is not a mental disorder as such, as Dj says.
The 3 children i dealt with, one of them (apart from no eye contact, which few children have anyway) i couldnt tell there was anythin ‘wrong’ with him.
I blame the parents, they should have known he is sensitive to noise and taken him outside to calm him down.
If i had been the childs parents the 18yr old would have been in hospital aswel. He is an adult and should be treated as such by the Law.
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Is there nobody who understands what profoundly disabled means. I’m sure there’s nobody more shocked by this (after the toddler and his parents) than the autistic lad’s parents. Saying he should be prosecuted, when he will have the mentality of a toddler is rubbish. Most autistic people do have sufficient understanding to know this behaviour is wrong. Autism is a huge range and this lad is at the most severe end of it.If the autistic lad is profoundly affected, as reported he didn’t understand. There needs to be a good look at this lad’s needs to avoid this again-but less histrionics please and some thought for the profoundly disabled, as well as the very unfortunate toddler.
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Nick Torode – a baby will cry because it cannot communicate in any other way. Parents cannot (and should not) leave their babies at home, nor live in fear of their infants being attacked for crying. Some consideration on both sides is necessary – on the parents side, taking the child outside to calm down if the noise becomes excessive, on the public’s side – some patience wouldn’t go amiss…we were all babies once, remember! :-)
Badly behaved children running riot is a different matter altogether – a bit of loving discipline is the answer to that – something I agree is often lacking, partly because some sections of society cannot tell the difference between child abuse and a controlled, proportionate smack by a loving parent.
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Dont see why this should have been kept out of the paper, this 18yr old should be sectioned, please do not tell me the Parents of the Baby are not pressing charges, surely the safety of the Baby comes first and to help ensure this Guy does not do this again, something must be done.
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Many of these responses are perfectly understandable but before criticising the police or the local legal system we should all note that the police cannot prosecute unless a formal complaint is made. The parents of the victim have chosen not to make such a complaint. They were there, they know the facts and we do not. We are not in a position to question the decision of the victim’s parents and we should respect their decision to not take things further.
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Honestly the level of brutality on here amazes me and I’m not talking about the original incident. First we have disturbing comments like “….then they would not be around to face charges… ” and “…i would have thrown the little s*** out the window”
But NOW we have the pro-smacking brigade advocating yet more violence in the misguided view that it would keep young children under control in the first place.
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If this lad was so bad that he doesn’t know what he is doing, where on earth were his parents? Surely, they have a duty of care to others.
Mt Torode
Good points but understandable when a baby is brutalised. An inch so higher and the baby could easily have died.
TL
Are you sure the police can’t prosecute in cases such as this? It was hardly a common assault. If the lad were capable in law, he could have been facing a GBH or even more severe charge.
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Lets face it, if it was a dog that had attacked the baby it would no longer be a threat because it would have been put to sleep. Not only that the owners would have been prosocuted.
This 18 year old has got away scot free, that just leaves me speachless. If the lad is not to blame then prosocute the parents for allowing an uncontrolable dangerous animal to wander around the streets of Guernsey without supervision!!!
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Autistic or not, absolutely no way to behave whatsoever. He knew exactly what he was doing otherwise he wouldn’t have done it??? Disgraceful behaviour & he ought to be punished. I hope the baby, family and other persons present fully recover themselves with no “mental scars”
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@ dan your right dan i may have contradicted myself but i consider it to be an unjust law,what i put in my body is up to me and no one else.and as im sure your a press reader how many people do u see in the paper fighting,swearing etc and blame it because the drunk?and how many do u see because they smoke a bit of cannabis?if u study the stats yourself your see.i used that as an example i was not causeing any harm to any person was the point i was trying to get across.
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im just wondering how many people commenting here have been in contact with an autistic child my guess is from the reaction of alot of you not many ok fair enough something should be done to prevent such things occuring again but the child is obviously attenting a special care school in england if he was only over for christmas and he should have been supervised while out but to say things like he should be sectioned is rediculous and you obviously know nothing about autism and should look a little into it before passing such extream judgement. i do not condone what this boy has done but neither do i think it was totally his fault i think it is more down to improper care and some unfourtunate circumstances
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Poor baby, poor babies parents, poor parents of autistic child.
Some people cannot be introduced back in to society, their sickness does not allow them to conform to the norms.
Stomping on a baby’s face? – makes me sick to the stomach.
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I may be completely wrong here but isnt it the Judges role to judge?
I havent gone to police school but it seems fairly obvious that the police are taking it upon themselves to decide if people would be sentenced or not rather than leave it to the court to decide.
So if this is correct then the action taken by the police is either a simple case of overstepping their power OR trying to reduce their own paperwork.
My message to the police would simply be -just do your job, thats all.
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David – how on earth can you say that this would not have happend if the baby was not crying…there is no excuse for this behaviour.
Are you saying that if you were out for a meal and a baby was crying you would get up and stamp on it’s face…I think not!!!
Get a grip seriously, that 18yr old boy should be prosecuted or sectioned if he is that mucked up.
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Stephen John I’m glad you find my points understandable. It’s good to have my opinion re-enforced by others agreeing.
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This story has left me in shock! The Guernsey Press seems to have summarised this particularly horrific story without even begining to explain any of reasoning behind why this animal is not going to be prosecuted. Autistic? Right….is that the full explanation?!
No wonder this has angered the public so much! So, a baby was attacked, and the attacker has got away with it Scot-free. Are you telling me that is all we need to know? I THINK NOT!!!!!
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“erm, erm, your honour, i have a severe case of colour blindness, i mean erm a runny nose”…. “not guilty!”
I had a lot of respect for Police up until now, that is disgusting.
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Sorry – me again!
My rant is not yet over. I just want to specifically request that the Press provide more information on this story to the public. No wonder such an angry debate has been created when it has been summarised in such a frank and simplistic manner.
Where were the boy’s (attacker’s) parents?
Are they being held responsible at all?
Had he ever behaved in a similar fashion before? etc etc etc……..see all the comments above which should clearly provide many more questions that should be answered.
Davey-G
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This autistic teenager has commited 2 assaults. A child was attacked in Le Friquet Garden centre cafe before the horrendous attack featured in the press. The mother of that child did not call the police. So, the mother of the 18 year old autistic already knew that her child was unable to cope in these situations but still went into Creasey’s. If this teenager is not reponsible, then the parents should be as they have a duty of care. If the teenager is this dangerous then they should not be allowed out without support workers. This was an assault and should not go unpunished. Do the police apply these non-prosecuting rules to everyone who has a condition? there are plenty of adults with ADHD, Aspergers and mental health conditions, all of which have ended up in court or prison for commiting crimes. You cannot have one law for one and another for everyone else.
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It’s dreadful for the parents. I have a 2 year old and a 14mth old child. I don’t know anything about autism and I’d be quite happy to read up on the condition (if that’s the correct term for it), and then offer some opinions on that. However, my biggest concern is that the parents felt that prosecution was the wrong road to go down. I don’t understand why? If somebody had done this to either of my children, strapped in his buggy, already upset, I don’t know what I would have done. Surely an example has to be set because a dreadful crime has been commited? I’m not a person to suggest burnings at steaks, lynching etc (as some of the above comments would suggest), but as a parent of 2 toddlers I would expect some sort of prosecution and justice for my child. Doesn’t Guernsey have laws to protect the innocent?
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whilst i am utterly apalled by what happened,i am also disgusted by the attitude of most of the comments on here.autism is a disability ,not a mental illness problem.locking this person up would do no good as they in all probability don’t realise thay have done anything wrong.the parent/carer should be villified for not taking reasonable care of the person they were caring for. i agree with pete burtenshaw that this is turning into a total witch-hunt.the press should be ashamed of the story.this incident has set acceptance of people with learning disabilities back by a lot of years.are you all going to be terrified every time you see someone with downs syndrome or anyother disability that is obvious from looking at the person.you should all be ashamed of what you are saying on here.how do you think parents of people with learning disabilities feel about this.
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david| January 10, 2009 at 5:29 pm
If the parents had had paid more attention to their screaming child I doubt this would have happened. How many coffee shop visits have been ruined by unruly children?
David – Get a grip will you. The baby cried, that’s what babies DO, did you cry when you were a child? Sounds like your parents didn’t bother with you by the way you’ve turned out. Wouldn’t have happened if the baby didn’t cry? What a lame, stupid, senseless comment to make. The baby doesn’t deserve to be kicked in the face for crying.
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Nick Torode – are you really that pathetic? you’d like people to keep their kids at home until they’re quiet? Why don’t you stay out of places where kids are, go to a bingo hall, go knitting with old people, visit old peoples homes and help out, go and sit on the beach in the winter on your own, there’s plenty of things you can do if the sound of a childs voice grates on you that much. Fool. Take a look at yourself, you sound like you’re condoning what this animal has done, he has KICKED A BABY IN THE FACE. Get a life.
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Reply to “angry”
Don’t be so silly, this is not a reflection on all people with a disability and it has not set anyone back any years. Stop being such a drama queen.
I certainly have not changed my opinion of anyone with a disability who is treated in my eyes with the same respect as someone without a disability. Im sure no one on this forum is shallow enough to stereotype everyone with a disability into what ever their opinion maybe of this 18 years old!
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Dolly, you ask why the parents have decided that they would not make a complaint to the police. We can only speculate but they could have any number of reasons: maybe they have had to deal with disability within their own family and empathise with the attacker’s parents; maybe they have strong religious views involving forgiveness; maybe they consider that “blame” and “fault” in these circumstances are complex concepts; maybe the facts of the event are not as sensational and dramatic as they have been made to sound in the press reports; maybe they feel that taking this incident by itself, a prosecution would cause further pain and difficulty without benefitting their child. Whatever their reasons, I applaud their decision and their ability to follow their morality rather than simply seeking to attribute blame and seek retribution. I don’t know if I would be that strong, but none of us are in a position to challenge their decision.
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Carla – spot on. I am simply attempting to ignore some of the incredibly cruel, misguided and downright senseless comments some people have written.
Unbelieveable.
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Carla, David has a point, of course no-one wants a baby to get hurt but then no-one wants to be surrounded by other peoples noisy children when they’re out. So leave them at home.
As unfortunate as this incident is at the moment I’m far more concerned by the bloodthirsty braying pack mentality displayed by the majority of comments than the chance that one of my family is hurt by an autistic child.
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Is it up to the Police in Guernsey to say who is prosecuted ? Here on the Mainland we have the CPS who decide who is charged and with what.The police have the job to investigate and arrest.This offence is very serious , lets be real here the baby could have been killed.
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Some of the comments and general lack of understanding of Autisum demonstrated has left me stunned. As a parent of an Autistic child I am now more fearful of my child growing up in such an environment. This incident is very sad but worse is the general lack of understanding and negative emotion shown towards austisum. Autisum affects each person differently and therefore it is not right to stereo-type someone with autisum.
I can not comment on the event as I was not there but only to say that some extremely austistic children can become extremely distressed with cetain sustained noises. There is the question I believe of whether the individual should have had some level of supervision given the severity of the Autisum. I would expect full apologies from all involved and a review into the individuals social needs.
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I was of the understanding that the police will have got a professional in to speak to the autistic person and decide on whether they were capable or not of understanding why they are being prosecuted. If the person does not have that understanding then how can you prosecute? It’s all very well shouting for the police to do something but if they do not have the powers to do something then it’s not their fault.
I agree with Carl for everything else.
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Austicis or not if it was one of my babies I would have attacked him back and my husband would probably have knocked him out.
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Bethany, so it’s OK to attack the disabled?
What if a paraplegic accidentally injured your child with their wheelchair are you going to throw them out of it or just punch them in the face?
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Nick Torode…..I am not sure if you are aware of the differance between “accidentally” and intentional….
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Nick Torode, thats not what Bethany said.
She said “Austicis or not.” Everyone is entitled to their point of view.
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Neil Lee| January 12, 2009 at 10:16 am.
Sadly, I come from the same planet you do. Were you, I or any of the posters there when the alleged attack took place? I have sincere sympathy for the children in question, their parents, the perpetrator and their parents. Whilst the assaults were shocking, the complication and success of any prosecution is the level of disability of the perpetrator and their mental age. One may have the age and body of an 18year old but the mental age of a 9 year old. The press has in my opinion once again run a story that ensures lynch mob mentality.
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I can’t believe some of the content of these comments. Bethany, I understand your anger but do 2 wrongs make a right? Autism is widely misunderstood and I believe that the person involved was having a hard time listening to the child cry, which for most of us is an everyday occurrence. Here is a quote from the National Autistic Society website.
A person with autism may find certain background sounds,which other people ignore or block out, unbearably loud or distracting. This can cause anxiety or even physical pain.
I really feel for the parents of the young child who was kicked as this must have been a very traumatic experience for them. I also feel for the parents of the autistic person as they must feel as if they are never going to be able to take their child out in the place where they live as once again the ‘witch hunt’ is back on and only 50% of the facts are actually known.
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This was the second time in two days that this Autistic Adult harmed a child, then why did the parents/carers of this Autistic Adult NOT use their common sense and not take him to places where there were going to be other members of the public, especially children. We all know that children cry when they are hungry and yes sometimes it is annoying when you are having a quiet cup of coffee in a cafe to have a baby crying in the background, but that does not give you any reason to go over and stamp on it Autisic or not. I totally blame the parent(s)/carer()s) for this incident. It stated that he had come to the Island to spend Christmas with his family so he obviously must be at some special school on the mainland. Whilst I totally agree that he SHOULD be prosecuted maybe the next step would be to ban him coming back to Guernsey for three years. If his behaviour is this bad then he should NOT be allowed to mix with members of the public and should be kept in the privacy of his own home.
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The response here is disgusting. My son is autistic and as it is said here, autism is not an Illness. All autistic children should not be judged on this act. I am not defending this, my heart goes out to the baby and the family. But once again people are sterotyping.
Open your eyes people.
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Autistic or not, the 18yr old should be prosecuted!
Just because some one has problems doesn,t mean that the rest of society should be on guard!
When will he do it again?
Does this mean that I should have to be on RED ALERT every time I’m in public with my family?
What kind of society do we live in?
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I am very upset and disturbed by the comments I have read. I am a mother of an autistic child and although my thoughts go out to the family of the child who was injured in this unfortunate incident there is a huge lack of understanding on autism and before any of you make such disturbing comments I suggest you all educate yourselves on the subject of autism. If you had a child with autism would you have made the same disturbing comments? Have a heart for people and families who deal with autism, it is not easy living with the condition, it is very stressful not only for the person with autism but also for the parents/carers. We need to increase awareness on the subject of autism. I would like to think my child who has autism will be accepted in society as he gets older. No autistic person is the same, they are unique like everyone else and their abilities and disabilities are all different, please do not discriminate against all people with autism because of this incident. The autistic boy should have been accompanied with a carer if he was on the severe end of the autistic spectrum.
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Nick Torode
Are you claiming that a baby is able then?
An accident is just that. However, whatever the frame of mind, condition or disability, if some one harmed a harmless baby in my presence then that person would be taught an expensive lesson.
This would be in an instance of whether it was my child or somebodies elses.
Babies can’t fight any battles. If you are suggesting that they should be able to then you are as crazy as the animal in question!
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IHC man does a horse – 3 years
Autistic man kicks baby in face – no prosecution.
Justice eh – cor la
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Before making this comment I have taken advice, I am sorry for the people with Autistic Children, but you must understand they must be supervised, especially at 18 years of age, a baby cries, that is a normal situation, this child was not running amok in a tea shop, it was a young baby in a pram, therefore, where was the Carer of this 18 year old. I cannot believe those of you with Autistic Children condone this behaviour, you obviously have your situation under control, this was not. I can understand how you feel, but this is an unacceptable situation, I know for myself, if it had happened to my family, I would have re-acted in a way he would have been lucky to be walking, as far as his so called Carers or Family, I still would like to know, where were they??? No one is putting down the disabled, people are just so angry this has been allowed to happen and nothing done to eleviate the situation. Disabled, yes have as much right to everything but this is not disabled, this is a situation that can happen again, so would someone please do something about it. A small Island means, yes this can happen again.
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I think this case is particularly sad. I really feel for the parents of the baby as i have a 6 month old myself. How they have kept their cool i will never know i must say that if it was me then i would want something done to ensure this never happens again and i would have probably hit out myself. I don’t know if the 18 year old was out with careers but if he was why did they ever put him in a situation that he could not handle?
I just wish the little boy a speedy recovery and hope this incident has no adverse affects on him or his family.
With regard to Nick’s comments i think this is completely different scenaro. Someone who knows right from wrong would apologise and i’m sure all people who are in wheel chairs or disabled don’t go round kicking babies in the face, do you!!!!
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Carla, insulting my deceased parents and calling me stupid isn’t constructive. I am far from the lame, stupid and senseless person you accuse me of being. Since their death I have chosen to live my life being as quiet an unobtrusive as possible to others, that is one reason why noise in public spaces upsets me too.
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Angry – spot on. There’s too many people on this topic commenting with no comprehension of what autism is or what it is to be profoundly autistic.
i think it telling that the people involved in this tale see fit not to prosecute. I’m heartened that the mother of the injured child has the intelligence and compassion that so many of the posters above do not.
Guernsey has a disgraceful attitude towards mental illness. I’ve seen better in the third world.
Bring on the next witch-hunt so you lot can stop embarrassing yourselves with this one….
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This is a sad situation for all involved, the person who kicked the baby in the face was obvisiougly in a siuation that they couldn’t handle as this was the second incident they had been involved in, i have to ask was the mother right to take this person into a busy coffee shop? I know people with autism and i hope that people will not assume that all autistic people act like this in similar situations, the baby involved hardly ever cries he is an extremly happy little chap so for David to suggest that it was in some way his fault for crying shows an incredible lack of maturity maybe one day when you are a parent you will understand that babies communicate by crying.
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David (10th January)….what a pratt. How on earth can you say this ? You are basically blaming the baby and the parents then are you ?
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Crikey – what an outcry.
I’ve never seen the pages so active.
Fact – The Police are not at fault.
Fact – Who knows what illness the offender had (do you believe everything you read?); there are all forms of autism to varying degrees
Fact – The parents have not laid charges (according the the press report – however do you believe everything in the paper)
Fact – If people press charges and the offender has a reduced mental ability in line with a certain age (usually under 12 years) then the offender will likely be treated as a child and therefore cannot be prosecuted as an adult
Fact – The Police go through rigorous training, education and understanding of mental illness during their early careers and as such understand mental and physical illness well (i.e. they can identify diabetes as opposed to drunkedness, they can identify pathological behaviour as opposed to aggression etc)
Fact – Calling everyone who contributes on this forum names is a waste of time
Fact – As a baby is involved it becomes emotive; not many people care when one adult hits another adult however you can bet your dollar an adult would remember the experience far better than an 18 month old
Fact – The police CAN prosecute without a complaint from a complainant depending on the offence, the nature of the offence, intent and victim (i.e. murder, rape, aggravated offences etc)
Thats me off my pedestal.
Put this into context please (I still think it’s very sad for the baby, the autistic person, the babies parents etc – however they are all ‘OK’). Look at the statistics for Gaza and numbers of babies killed this week if you want to sober up and stop being pompous.
Fact – I am not a police officer, however I do believe everyone gets on the bandwagon to slate them when in fact we could not do without them.
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I am a close family member of the child involved in this incident ! We would just like to clarify that we do not hold the autistic person responsible, however we do have to question their supervison levels ! We would hope to think that you would all think about what you are saying with out having the full facts. I would just like to add that the little boy involved is making a full recovery.
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Morning all.
Anyone else expecting the Guernsey Press to fully cover this topic again? Their hollow effort at trying to summarise this gruesome story was poor, and has simply created confusiona and anger.
Davey G
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David & Nick Torode – you belong in the gutter with your comments.
The only ‘good’ thing about this story is that the child will be none the wiser for this incident since he/she is so young.
This is maybe the type of story that shouldn’t be reported.
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It seems that the David who is being slated on this thread is not the regular contributor of the same name. Different gravitar.
Darren
The age of criminal responsibility is the actual age and not the mental age.
There have been a number of people executed in the past who were of low mental age, but old enough to die. I believe it was 18 before capital punishment was abolished.
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The ignorance on this page is staggering. Witch hunt is a very good term for it. Autism is a serious disability, not a label for difficult children/adults.
I question the supervision of this young man who should not have been put in this situation.
But I question the responsibility of the reporting this incident more.
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While the incident in question is extremely distressing, and my sympathies go to the parents of the baby involved. I am horrified at the lynch mob mentality of many of the comments that have been made.
Fortunately the only people in full possession of the facts appear to be acting with compassion and understanding. If they have accepted that the young person involved should not be held responsible then shouldn’t the rest of us respect their views.
The report states that a Social Services inter-agency strategy meeting was held and action taken to reduce any danger to the public in the future.
This may mean that the young person in question be kept away from public places in the short term, but hopefully in an enlightened and civilized society, adequate supervision will be provided along with strategies to help the young person develop socially acceptable ways of dealing with their aversion to the noise of crying babies. Shutting them away in an institution is not an acceptable way of dealing with a person with learning disability.
Please spare a thought for the parents of this young person. They are probably just as distressed by this incident as are the parents of the baby.
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Emma – It is wonderful to read such a mature response from someone close to the poor baby involved in this tragic incident. It is also good to hear that the young boy is making a full recovery.
I think people should respect the parents decision not to prosecute and let the authorities deal with this appropriately. The 18 year old obviously has an off-island placement which involves a great deal of professional input. It is these ‘experts’ that should be looking at the support they have offered towards this individual and their family.
The 18 year old has been failed by the system. In the UK a disabled person or child and their carers (ability to cope / circumstances) are needs assessed as a whole. This does not happen in Guernsey and now we can see the tragic result.
People fortunate to not have their lives touched by childhood disability are probably like I was niave enough to think that Guernsey meets disabled childrens needs. Think again…. No speech therapy, long waiting times for child & adolescent mental health appointments (if you get an appointment that is), respite services for disabled children shared with learning disabled adults, limited financial support………
If one thing comes from this horrendous incident then I hope it is a close look at the support offered to the learning disabled.
Nothing I have said detracts from the utter horror I feel for the young baby and his family but I do entirely feel for the autistic boy and his family too. I hope the general community can let them resolve this situation in the way they have chosen.
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It should not matter to police whether he has a condition or not – that would be taken into condition later in court. If the person is a danger to society then something needs to be done. Protect the people!
How many babies does this person need to stomp on before police would charge him? Exactly how much damage needs to be done? How far through the head does his boot have to go before police would take notice?
Obviously a broken nose and mouth lacerations is not enough.
All of those who take the view that its okay because the baby wont remember it are absolutely beyond moral comprehension. Im sure a lot of child offenders would take the same stance. It is not a defense! i am shocked and appalled that a lot of people have actually stated this!
This baby will need medical bills paid for, may have breathing difficulties for months or even years, eating difficulties and may also need intensive speech therapy due to suffering from injuries to his mouth. Not to mention the sociological damage that may come from all of the above. Even if the baby does not remember the incident it still may suffer from the effects of the incident for years.
I would definitely press charges if it were my baby – whilst i feel sad for the Autistic person and his family, the baby would be my priority.
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Whilst I agree that the attack on this baby is horrifying I have spent a great deal of time with autstic people of all ages. I have been attacked whilst caring for autistic people however if you take the time to try to understand autism (something which can never be fully understood) you would realise that he never meant to hurt anyone.
He was out with his parents who were no doubt supervising him, a parent of an autistic child would never put their child in a situation where they believed they would do harm to themselves or others. What do you expect them to do?? To what extent do you want them to supervise him…phyically restraining their son everytime he moves? People with autism do not tell you how they feel, they see the world differently and react differently, very often not giving warning signals.
The boy is back for Christmas and is presumably in an institution in the UK because Guernsey cannot provide for him, something which is not uncommon but not widely known.
Caring for someone with autism is difficult, you have to remember that the carer has a life too, one which they would rather not live in social isolation.
He is an 18 year old male, he is autistic but still a human being and has human rights, locking him away is no solution and is unfair treatment, he never asked to be autistic in the first place!!! What good would it be to reveal his identity…so people could isolate him from society further yet, attack him his family or worse? Really???
I am not condoning what he has done but I suggest that everyone who has something to say should spend time with an autistic person because it would not even take 2 minutes to realise that this boy did not plan to hurt a baby. I have taken autistic people out in public with me before and people laughed at them and pointed, strange how no one seems to be laughing anymore!
Finally I have the upmost repsect for the family of the baby, it must have been a difficult decision but you made the right one. I wish your family all the best.
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Whilst I agree that legal action against this individual would not be fair nor productive, I do feel that something should be done.
I think the parents of this individual need to make sure that suitable procedures are put in place to stop this happening again.
I also think there should be more available for autistic people and people of a similar nature to do in Guernsey as there is so little available. This could prevent things like this happening in future. I am not saying that they should be kept seperate from the rest of the community as that is ridiculous, they are human beings just as much as the rest of us are and there are so many varieties of autism but better facilities would be highly beneficial for them.
No one is necessarily at fault here, it is just one of those unfortunate things. However, this could have been avoided if the individual involved had of been better supervised.
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Peter Butenshaw you are a man with great compassion,and I admire you for that, and as you say neither of us was there at the time of this incident and dont know the full facts only what the press has printed,but still this child was stamped on and the assailent is not being prosocuted because he has issuses with his mental health.The penal system is full of people with mental health problems and many of these have commited serious violent crimes (including murder)and need to be locked up to prevent them doing it again.I find it hard to see a difference between them and the guy who stamped on this babys head,surley we cant let these people out of jail because they are not capable of disguishing right from wrong ?.
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Wil, are you qualified to assess the short and long term affects of the attack? I am actually currently studying pediatric respiratory physiology and I disagree with your assessment!!
It’s all a lot of assumptions, and understandably!! There is very little evidence in the GP report. It’s more gossip than journalism. I mean, we don’t even know whether the protagonist is male or female!
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Neil Lee is spot on…
Leeroy Le Gallais was sent to prison for his actions with a horse – yet it was widely reported that he had severe learning difficulties – people were happy to see him locked up….
Whilst prosecution may be harsh against someone who apparently doesnt know right from wrong or what he is doing most of the time…
If this is the case – how in gods name is he allowed to roam around freely in public?? He is obviously a danger to the public as had been previously proved on seperate occasions…
Whilst going to prison may not be the correct route, the guernsey courts have a moral duty to protect the public from this guy & possibly others like him…
If he is still around & attacks anyone in my family then I can assure you – I will get justice – not from him… I would personally sue the States of Guernsey for failing to protect their public… & they wouldnt have a leg to stand on…
How can a government turn a blind eye because of an illness – what if the baby had been killed – & he was very lucky not to be… what then?? Oh its ok – he is ill so we wont charge him…
The law system have opened a can of worms here – my next parking ticket wont be paid as I might have a cold…
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I am amazed once more as I was a couple of months ago (re the death of a dog in a young girls care) to see so many vicious messages/thoughts, what ever you want to call them. I am shocked that people have no sympathy and everything is just so black and white for the najority of the above.
The parents of the baby do not wish to prosecute so why is everyone else still out for blood? Heaven forbid any of you people damming this young man ever have a child who isnt anything but perfect. Prosecuting and locking up this young man isnt a solution and god help those of you who really believe it is.
I think perhaps as usual the GP’s reporting on the siutation has been a little on vague side, I read yesterday it was a broken nose and then today a suspected broken nose. Dare I say the GP get ALL the facts before actually printing anything in the paper. Or is this the type of local outrage they are looking to cause secretly?!
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Autism is not an illness, you are showing your ignorance!
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These threads don’t half polarise views and opinions!
I think what has insensed many people here is that a family (or anybody else) should be able to sit in a public place without the risk of someone putting a boot in your face. For whatever reason.
The trouble with care in the community is that, in many instances, the rights of the patient (sufferer of condition X) are put before public safety. The UK is little better than Guernsey in this regard.
If an incident such as this is likely to happen again then I am afraid that the risk has to be removed from society.
Many innocent people would be alive today if that had been done.
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Student Bob
First note the repetitive use of the word “may” by Wil in stating what might or might happen to the unfortunate baby.
As you haven’t examined the child, you also are in no position to provide a diagnosis.
As you are unable to provide a post examination diagnosis you can disagree with the assessment of Wil, but you certainly can’t prove him wrong.
I have to say that after reading, thinking about, and rereading Wil’s post I find myself nodding my head when reading the content of the post. I suspect others will feel likewise.
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W H Bonney?? Seriously??
“…the guernsey courts have a moral duty to protect the public from this guy & possibly others like him…”
“ethnic cleansing
n. The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, 2006.”
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Oh come on Student Bob – you talk some real cobblers at times.
You’ve made me really angry with your posts, and I’ve flipped, so is it ok for me to kick your head in?
No! Quite!
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How on earth can you equate the protection of the public with ethnic cleansing?
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Stephen John – fair comment. Whilst I do have my copy of Grays Anatomy open in front of me and stand by my remark, I’ll spare you the latin tedium. Suffice to say that perhaps those reading Wil’s post will read the following to balance the argument:
This baby will need his parents to make a claim through their private medical insurance, will probably not have breathing difficulties for months or even years, nor eating difficulties and will probably not need intensive speech therapy due to suffering from injuries to his mouth. Not to mention the sociological damage that will probably not come from all of the above. Even if the baby does remember the incident it most likely won’t suffer from the effects of the incident for years.
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W H Bonney January 13, 2009 at 3:22 pm ……………the guernsey courts have a moral duty to protect the public from this guy & possibly OTHERS LIKE HIM.
What’s the definition of ‘ethnic cleansing’ Steven Jon?
” The persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing “
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Grow up Student Bob – ethnic cleansing – no…
Keeping Guernsey streets free from people that kick babies in the face – yes…
If you think I am into ethnic cleansing then yeah – maybe you could say I am… I vote that anyone that puts the publics health in danger should not be allowed to do so – by force if needed – oh wait – that law is already in place – so why wasnt it used in this case??
I want to walk around in public knowing that my 3 month old daughter isnt at risk of having her face kicked in…
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Student Bob
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I hope you are right in your feelings as to the future well being of the child.
Or and by the way I am old enough to have had a basic education that included Latin!!!
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After a long time looking at all the above comments I have come to the conclusion that this is not as black and white as it seems. The baby in question is 7 months old and its only communication to its parents is by crying, also as none of us were there this cry may have been a tiny whimper or high pitched scream? Even so this baby attracted the unwanted attention of a autistic 18 year old who does not like crying babies!
If this is so why on earth would you take your autistic child (which you know does not like crying babies) into town at all???? There must be loads of young children going in and out of town with their parents on a daily basis, I personally think that if I had an autistic child that had certain phobias/fears? I would do anything to minimise the chances of anything happening while we were out.
It is up to the police to make our island safe even if it meant certain limitations were given to the person who has done this. I would like to see something happen as it makes you wonder if this had been a fatal incident would anything have happened at all?
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I too would like to comment on the complete lack of understanding of autism and too, the disgusting attitude and lynch mob mentality that you have exhibited. I do not blame the press. Though slightly biased in this case, the Guernsey Press is not as “leading” as other international publications. You characters have carried out this judgement all by yourselves and you should be ashamed.
And I’m sorry to say this in response to those parents of autistic children who replied, but yes, autistic people, unfortunately will have to grow up and live in a society full of ignorant people like this. It scares me too.
Thankyou Kaurice ;) for providing a link for those who may wish to educate themselves to the condition of the boy they are condemning.
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i personally feel that it is a great shame this was allowed to happen. surely if it happened in the past the teenager should have been taught that it was a bad thing to do and told not to do it again. I understand that the male involved has autism, but i believe that anyone who commits a crime should be dealt with in the right way, by the law despite their disorders or illnesses.
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I personally think that this 18 year old boy should be prosecuted, if he is to get away with what he did then he will maybe someday do it again but next time with a more serious outcome. I do not wholly blame the lad but I do wholly blame the parent(s)/carer(s) who were with him at the time. Surely the fact that he had harmed a child the day before had alarm bells ringing. Common sense comes to mind on the parent/carer behalf, do they not think that he has done anything wrong, do they let him go around kicking and harming children, do they get pleasure from letting him do these things, it certainly doesn’t seem to bother them as they took him again to another cafe where there was more than likely to be children as it is a cafe in the middle of Town. They say the baby crying got him agitated, well we all get agitated at times when we go for a coffee and you have got children making a noise, running around, you sometimes think they have no parent control, but you don’t see other children/adults going about stamping on babies heads because they are cryiny, crying is what babies do. The parent/carer of this Autistic boy should have known better than to take him to a popular cafe which is frequented by young families. I just hope that the decision is the right one made for him. I would personally like to see that he is not allowed back to the Island for three years and has to stay in a Secure Unit for people with Severe Learning/Behaviour problems. As for the parents not apologising to the babies family, well that just shows what today’s society is all about.
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in respone to david the child wasn’t screaming as you put it he was crying for his feed.
how dare you put the blame on the baby or the family for a hungry baby!!!!!
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After reading most of the comments in this page I am almost reduced to tears at the lack of understanding and ignorance towards autism, and suggesting that parents of autistic condone this behaviour. WE DO NOT! It is awful and my best wishes go to the family and glad the baby is making a full recovery, I would be extreamely upset if my child had got kicked in the face. I have a serverly autistic child and unless you are a parent, carer or teacher you will never understand autism no matter how much you read into it and you should NOT judge it. Punishing the 18 year old wouldn’t do any good I would probably make him worse and would he understand why he is being punished? If the parents are happy with no prosecution then I don’t think this case should have been published it should have been kept under wraps as it’s painting autistic people in bad light when most if not all have a very lovely and caring side and it would suggest that you need to constantly watch your ‘normal’ child incase an autistic child comes along and kicks them. When my autisitc child is with me he is under constant supervision and even when I am holding onto him he will lash out at a stranger and I have to apologise on his behalf because he doesn’t talk and doesn’t understand that what he did was wrong. Perhaps this 18 year old is the same? It is a shame the care workers or the parents couldn’t intervene to save this from happening. Luckily the baby is totally fine and won’t remember this awful incident, however, for the autistic person, you have one life and autism is for life. We are lucky us ‘normal’ people but we should spare a thought for those who don’t have this quality of life.
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I sympathise with the difficulties of the 18 year old with an illness, however assault is assault and assaulting a child is disgusting, it is not acceptable and the 18 year old should be pushed in accordance with the law.
If it was my child I would definitely press charges, I dont understand why the family are not pressing charges???
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Student Bob – where did you get that paragraph from? is it a medical report or did you just pull it from we all know where?
I totally agree that i am no position to make a diagnosis on the baby and unless you have inside knowledge on the incident then neither are you. In the medical world everyone uses “may” or “probably” all the time, nothing is ever certain – everyone knows that. That is “probably” something you “may” learn if you ever graduate.
I am only commenting on what has been stated in the Guernsey press – unless you know the individuals concerned, have the inside scoop somehow or have the medical report then how can anyone here do more?
I thought that most people would know why the baby “may” have ongoing medical expenses but as you dont think so i will just point out a few basics……
Why could the baby have breathing difficulties? – cartilage obstructing the nasal passages.
Why could the baby have difficulty swallowing? internal lacerations to the oral cavity would make it painful to swallow food and at such a critical stage of development would be a setback in development- could be very minor could be longer but it is a setback none the less.
Why could the baby suffer a speech delay? Any delay in ability to eat and swallow food is commonly associated with speech delay. Combined with sub-obtimal nasal breathing makes it more difficult to coordinate breathing and speech which is required for making sentences and articulating different sounds. As speech is very important for communicating with others then it may impact on the childs ability to make friends and socialise with others.
This is so basic and i am sorry for boring everyone with information they already know.
Of course it probably wont come to that and for the baby’s sake i hope that he makes a quick and complete recovery. I also hope that the Autistic person and carers get the help and support that they need so a similar incident does not happen again.
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Stephen John – you need to get your facts in order; if someone is 70 years old and they have the recognised mental age of a 7 year old then you cannot try them in court as an adult; you do talk twaddle sometimes Stephen.
I like your last comment Gilthead and could not agree more – remove the threat.
Unfortunately as happened in the UK in the 1980’s places like Brockhall which was a specialised centre for people requiring monitoring and to keep the public at large safe were closed – the answer, release them, and they went forth into society and caused a lot of problems, hence my knowledge of mental age versus prosecution etc.
Ultimately it is down to the parents of the baby in my view – they have the choice; make a complaint or not. They are condoning his act of violence by not doing anything, however who knows what they have done and said.
If someone kicked my baby in the face I would respond in kind – by law you are allowed to protect yourself from harm with proportionate levels of force (don’t try to correct me on this one either Stephen).
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Bit over the top for E Le Page to speak of a lynch mentality.
Most of the postings seek only the protection of the public qand particulatly of young babies.
Most will know of the varying degrees of autism and are right in asking the questions about the supervision of the 18 year old.
Hardly a lynch mentality.
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I personally don’t care if autism is an disease, illness, condition, syndrome or whatever. Anyone with a propensity for this kind of action needs to be in a controlled environemnt, if that simply means curfewed or understood to be kept away from babies then so be it.
To try and move the discussion from public safety to the semantics of a ‘condition’ is verging on the surreal.
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Hang on everybody. Lets look at this logically.
Autism is, at best, horrible for all involved. Fact.
The prosocution of the person in this case is futile as they would not understand the punishment.
Everybody posting here should at least try to understand the issues surrounding the care of an autistic child.
However using autism as an excuse (not a reason) for a violent assualt is not acceptable. We would not condone a drunk man assualting a police officer would we?
I refer to my previous (and others) posts on this. A balance has to be struck between public safety and the “rights” of those suffering mental health issues (whatever they may be).
If a person is assessed as a serious risk to the general public then they should be removed from society.
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Stephen John- I too mentioned lynch mob mentality and stand by it. Many of the above postings insist that the young autistic person be punished, or locked away in a secure institution, others even suggest that had it been their child they would have resorted to physical violence.
Prosecuting this young person would achieve nothing, if it has been accepted by those in possession of the facts of this case, that the young person did not understand the consequences of their actions, it seems unlikely that they would have any understanding of police or court proceedings. According to the report this person attends an off island placement. I assume that by now they are safely back within that specialist care setting. Thus the immediate risk of this incident being repeated has been removed. The only necessary action is to ensure that strategies are put in place to help this young person cope with their problems with noise and yes of course to ensure that adequate supervision be provided in the future. Hopefully the parents will now receive some help with this.
This was a terrible incident and the baby could have been seriously hurt, but the spokesperson for the National Autistic Society has said that this is an extremely rare incident. The likelihood of this incident being repeated is very remote.
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Gilthead
So OK if a person is assessed as a serious risk to the general public then they should be removed from society. However what evidence is there to suggest that this young person is a serious risk to the general public, This was a specific albeit horrific response to the noise of a crying baby. I don’t disagree that measures should be taken to prevent this from happening again and perhaps if this young person cannot learn to cope with the noise of crying babies then they will have to be kept away from situation where they are likely to encounter babies or be provided with adequate supervision so that they can be removed from the situation . But removing them from society altogether is not an option. This young person needs all the help we can provide to enable them to be part of society removing them from it is a cop out.
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If everyone who injured another in response to the victim’s behaviour was to be “locked away” we would have very few people – adults or children – walking around. Children regularly lash out at each other and can cause injuries. Does this mean that children should be locked away until such time as they can understand how to manage their responses?
A toddler poked my son in the eye (deliberately – it wasn’t an accident) when he was 6 weeks old. His eye was red for weeks and we had to visit the GP.
Following the mentality of the posters on here, that EVIL and WICKED toddler should have been locked up for causing an injury to my defenceless baby – or at the very least sent away from Guernsey until old enough to realise the consequences of its actions. Of course, that toddler is also very lucky that I didn’t retaliate and throw it out of the window after such a disgusting assault.
And as for that toddler’s parents – well shame on them. How dare they allow their toddler out in public KNOWING that there were likely to be babies about!!! (it was family service at church so not at all unexpected). My baby boy wasn’t crying before this assault – just lying in his car seat. An unprovoked attack!
I concur with Catherine’s sensible and reasoned responses. Removing this young person from society is not an option: providing that person and their family/carers with support and strategies is what is needed.
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In Simon Cowell fashion, I think it is useful to approach this in a question and answer fashion.
Q Has there been harm caused to someone?
A Yes to a 7 month old baby
Q Should the person who committed the harm be dealt with just like any other 18 year old
A Obviously not as the kid who kicked the baby was autistic
Q Even though the kid is autistic, should the kid know the difference between harmless and harmful
A Having looked at various websites, being autistic should not prevent the kid knowing what is right or wrong
So overall it is clear that the autistic kid should be punished but not like a normal unautistic 18 year old as the autism is a factor behind the kicking and should be considered. So the punishment should not be on the same scale as a normal unautistic 18 year old
I do personally think the Police not doing anything is cowardly and they should take a stand. Has Creaseys introduced any type of policy to prevent this happening again i.e should kids who have certain difficulties be allowed into Creaseys only if supervised? I wont go to Creaseys again until such policy is established.
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Catherine, that is a very well reasoned post. I completely agree with you.
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Darren
Kindly juatify your statement “if someone is 70 years old and they have the recognised mental age of a 7 year old then you cannot try them in court as an adult”
As someone who you stated in a posting some months ago as having an IQ of 40, I really want to learn from you. Not what you might think but actual verifiable facts to support your offensive commments to anyone who fails to agree with you.
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I think everyone should get there facts right about the incident before hurling abuse across to one another – there is NO mention that the 18 year old local was MALE – I know this is irrelivant but it clearly shows the twisting and assumptions that are going on in this conversation!
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Is it possible that the lynch mob that used to inhabit WhyGuernsey have migrated here? It is no defence of them to state that they only have the safety of others in mind: that is a rationalisation of the motivation of any lynch mob.
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I quote my teachers as Oakvale School
Being autistic is a reason…. It is NOT and excuse
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Wil – Where did I pull that paragraph from?? I thought you’d recognise it! I cut and pasted YOUR paragraph and replaced the ‘may’’s with ‘probably not’’s. I think its important to have a balanced view on this. Would you not agree?
I agree that I cannot comment on the individual’s assessment, but as a medical student with knowledge of pediatric physiology and anatomy I do feel equipped to assess it as a case study.
In fairness, I am impressed by the research you have done and the assessment you present. I still disagree, but this isn’t the place for an argument over medical semantics.
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Catherine – I’m not suggesting for a moment that this person is “removed” from society.
I neither know the true facts of the case or am I qualified to make such a decision.
The point I am making is a general one. Namely that, for whatever reason, the general public have a right to be protected from persons who are likely to launch unprovoked attacks. And I say again that the human rights of a sufferer of a mental condition need to be taken into account but weighed against the risk that the person may pose to others (and themselves).
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Gilthead- sorry for misinterpreting you. I agree entirely with your point about the need to weigh the rights of an individual against the rights of others to whom that individual might pose a risk.
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I think you will find that the carers or parents who were with this youth, were on a different floor in Creaseys, which after the incident the day before, was a very foolish thing to do.
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Student Bob – if you want bring in Education then i outrank you – but that is irrelevant. You dont see other bloggers trying to shove their degrees etc in everyones faces. By the way, I didnt do any research, just used my commonsense.
Everybody knows that “may” means might or might not, dont need much of an education to understand that. Stop boring everyone.
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Wil, if you are the most educated here could I ask why you didn’t capitalise the nominative singular pronoun in your comment?
I don’t have a degree but am considered an expert in the field of Mandelbrotian chaotic complexity. So I know how to address you in the future I’d like to know where I am on your ranking scale.
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Wil – My humble apologies. I was always taught that a cogent argument must consider both sides. I was simply trying to address the bias I detected in your statement.
I also fail to understand how education is irrelevant? Surely if I have studied pediatric physiology and we’re discussing pediatric physiology then that IS relevant?
You make a lot of presumptions and fail to back them up. You’re boring me.
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It doesnt matter what your education level is, its irrelevant, i should not have bought it up. There are so many extremely intelligent and thoughtful comments here and i by no means would ever state that i am the most intelligent! I only meant it as a direct comparison to Stu Bobs studies (he kept on going on and on and on about how qualified he was above all others and i found it very irritating). So if anyone was offended i apologise. Hey, i dont even know what Mandelbrotian Chaotic complexity is! (Im tempted to google it though)
The only thing that matters here is the poor baby and the Autistic person. I stand by my comment that if i were the parents of the baby then whilst i would feel sad for the Autistic person, the baby would be my priority. I would press charges to cover the initial care and any future care which is needed as a result of the incident (which is hopefully very minimal). It may even protect others and direct the Autistic person to the care and treatment that they obviously need.
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at the end of the day both families are suffering here….however that said the parents of the youth didn’t even notice that she had wondered off to a different floor and therefore the responsibility lies here.
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Rosie, and others,
I have it on good authority that the autistic person involved was on holiday here and was separated, intentionally or otherwise, from the people looking after them, at that time.
I agree that this person should have been more closely attended to because,again on good authority, a similar incident occured only the day before this one in which this person was involved also.
I think this person is probably not responsible for their actions due to their condition, but I believe the people looking after them should be charged with neglect, or whatever is the appropriate charge for this kind of incident.
I agree this is highly unlikely to happen again , but that this person should be more supervised because this could be the start of something more serious, and would Guernsey per se, like to be reminded that they may have been able to step in and prevent this?
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Mandelbrotian chaotic complexity “WOW” zzzzzzz can we get on with the comments now….please .
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As a parent myself, i must admit that if this had happened to my baby my first reaction would have been to hit out at the person who had done that to my baby! Because thats what parents do, they protect their children no matter what!
I am a friend to the family of this poor baby, i know that the parents/carers of the autistic 18yr old were not present at the time this happened. They were indeed on another floor!
I do not know much about autism, but after reading some of the comments explaining it, i do however feel that someone should be prosecuted for this, and that person should be the carer who was meant to be doing their job at the time!
I am shocked by whoever it was that said “babies/children should not be taken into coffee shops”… why on earth not! If you want a quiet coffee then sit at home! And for the person who said “if the baby hadnt been left crying then the attack might never had happened” Well you obviously have no children yourself, as you should know (because its common sense) that babies communicate by crying! And i would also like to add that the parents wouldnt have left the baby crying, they are not like that.. he would have been whimpering for his feed.
So, yes the carer at the time should be held responsible! As a similar event happened before this one, they should have been more alert than to let the attacker wander off alone, especially where children are most likely going to be!
I can see most points of view here, and yes everyone will have an opinion, but will anything more come of this? I dont know…
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The incident involving an autistic teenager and a baby was reported under the headline “Autistic teenager kicked baby in the face” and included phrases “attacked in his buggy,” “horrifying assault” and “stamped a heel into his face.”
It could equally have been reported thus “A distressed autistic teenager unwittingly injured a baby in Creasey’s coffee shop. The seven-month-old boy sustained a suspected broken nose and needed hospital treatment.”
Is one version any more accurate than the other? If anything, the published version is a little confusing, as we’re not quite sure whether it was a kick or a stamp that was used, or even both. It also uses colourful language – language that does not necessarily describe precisely what happened, but may even hide the real course of events, and certainly encourages the reader to believe things that did not occur.
The second version is neutral. The word “unwittingly” may be slightly controversial, but anybody who knows what “profoundly autistic” means will appreciate that the individual in all probability really did not understand what he or she was doing.
So why did the Guernsey Press go with the published version, and not an alternative. I assume that the choice of words was not accidental, and I assume too that employees of the Guernsey Press are aware of the power of language.
I am drawn to the conclusion that either Zoe Ash has let her own views, whatever they may be, colour her report, or that editorial staff have, for whatever reason, added their own slant.
In either case, the Guernsey Press has failed to uphold the journalistic principle of separating news from opinion.
The result is a report written in language that is not designed to inform or educate, but to excite and elicit a response from the readers. There was no attempt to put the incident into perspective. We and our children are at absolutely minimal risk of being physically assaulted by autistic people. Children are far more likely to be assaulted by members of their own families. According to the NSPCC a child in England and Wales is killed every ten days by its parents. How often do you hear about children being killed by random autistic people?
Let’s look at the response that the report provoked?
These are some of the things that the readers have said about a severely disabled individual:
“He must be punished”
“i would have hit him back.”
“i would have thrown the little s*** out the window”
“this creature”
“should be put away for life”
“Little s***bag should be put in the stocks”
“any chance of his photo please or a name”
“He should be locked up”
“should have to pay for what he did”
“i would have given him more than a broken nose”
“he needs forced mental health treatment”
“If i had been the childs parents the 18yr old would have been in hospital aswel”
“this animal”
“my husband would probably have knocked him out”
Would such a response have followed a neutral and factual report?
Is anybody surprised at the views expressed, following the way the incident was reported?
Did the Guernsey Press intend to elicit such a response?
Is this not the deliberate orchestration of public opinion against a vulnerable group in society on the pretext of public safety?
Doesn’t this make the Guernsey Press little better than the newspapers that helped pave the way for the acceptance of the Aktion T4 programme in Nazi Germany?
Having said all that, I don’t want to leave it here – I’d like to consider what could be done to learn from the issue and improve the overall situation. Perhaps the Guernsey Press could set the ball rolling with a couple of features – one on child abuse in Guernsey, so that we learn what the real issues are, and the other on what it’s like to be severely autistic, or what it’s like to care for somebody who is severely autistic.
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I think the responsibilty is with the parents to watch the 18 year old more closely instead of letting him wonder off ok he`s got a problem but if he can`t stand noise and stuff then they should of taken him somewhere more quiet. obvously it`s going to be a bit noisy in a cafe. i feel sorry for both parents but at the end of the day if he done it once then they should not have taken him out to a place like town where it is more noisy than a cafe.
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Ok Heini – is it therefore acceptable, that because a person is autistic, that they can assault members of the general public?
I agree with you on the “flowery” reporting of the issue and on some of the more extreme reactions posted here. However to suggest that the Press is paving the way for a ressurection of the horrors of Nazi Germany is going a bit too far!
Many people here have empathised with the carers of the autistic but it is not an excuse for physical assualt.
Full stop.
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I agree with Wil. You are spot on. In regards to the babys injuries, it is best to er on the side of caution. It is not good enough to say hey it probably wont happen so dont worry about it (truely unprofessional Student Bob). That is so condescending and patronising to the parents of both the baby and the Autistic person.
Press charges. It will cover the baby, lead the Autistic person to getting more support/care and hopefully prevent any further incidences from occuring in the future.
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I am disgusted that the police haven’t done anything about this!! That poor baby and the parents.. I don’t have children but if anyone kicked my nephews in the face i’d make them pay for it whether they are Autistic or not!!
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I agree with Kaurice Mirk
, it is a terrible thing to happen but surely punishing the mentally ill isn’t the answer.
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If the attacker is not punished isn’t it likely they will do it again, because they have not understood that it is wrong? If this person cannot be trusted not to attack babies, they should be properly supervised/restrained in public places.
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So then what is the answer ?… I know ,we could let all the mentally ill out of the prisons and intergrate them back into society and then try to stop them attacking,maiming and killing again.
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My sympathy goes to family of the autistic person if they have to put up with such draconian views in Guernsey. Yes the attack was horrific but anyone with any understanding of autism would not write such ill-informed and idiotic comments, so don’t. If the perpetrator was locked up or “hidden” away then all would be achieved is you do not have to deal with what hundreds of families with autistics have to on a daily basis. This sounds a bit backward and Victorian to me and as a regular visitor to Guernsey am concerned that actually it is not such a tolerant and friendly place for me to bring my family.
Autism is a profound social, communication and imagination disorder; it is not a mental disease, or illness or indeed controllable. It is a learning disorder and things taken for granted by even most dim-witted on this page will be totally unfathomable to the autistic person in question. Punishment is not a concept that is understood by the autistic and would not stop him doing it again. Hiding him away or locking him up is not a way to treat this condition; exposing him to normal day-to-day life is the only hope.
I have four year old severely autistic boy with severe learning difficulties whom I am very proud of and wouldn’t change for the world. The only thing I would like to change is people’s perception as going out in public with him can be a real strain when everything has to be explained to people who clearly don’t have any idea that simply telling my child not do something is going to stop him. Having an autistic son has really made me tolerant of other people’s kids and I make more allowances. Perhaps some of the parents on here should consider how lucky they are to have “normal” children and remember that we are all parents who have some difficult job sometimes.
If you have read this far, well done.
Jamie, England
ps – national autistic society have a great website about this condition which might help
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im a mother of two children, i have friends with autistic children, i never understood it till i spent time with theses children. all i can say is what good do you think it would do to lock up an autistic child that has the age of as little as a 5/9 yr old ? what lesson would be lernt ? the idear that the autistic children are mainly off island in care homes would be no different to prision, only the fact that whilst away in there care homes they are being tought how to behave with people, some cant even say there own names without being prompted.
whilst i have every sypathy with the babys mum and dad, and would never wish this to happen ever again i think we must agree what use would it be locking a 5/9 yrs old in adults prision.
i hope the baby is doing well and the mum and dad too god bless .
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Jamie
With the greatest respect, if your son is a danger to the public and is likely to stick his shoe into the face of a baby in a pram, then I’d prefer he didn’t come here.
It’s not about our ‘draconian’ or ‘victorian ways; it’s simply a matter of your responsibility and public safety.
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Jackie,
I’m sure most parents like myself do not go out of their way to put the public in danger or push their children’s disability under people’s noses.
In fact most parents in this position are isolated and housebound as they face great difficulty trying to have a normal life and and fight for rights for their child.
I will however not be hiding my son away from the world and it is not for others without any medical understanding of this condition to judge if he is a danger to the public or not.
Ignorance and prejudice is a “sickness”, not this disability. Autism covers a wide spectrum and some are able to make a valuable contrition to society. I have heard Ros Blackburn speak who is more sincere and articulate than many so called normal people yet has this dreadfully debilitating condition.
You are assuming all with this disorder are likely to be violent to others. How is it therefore possible to consider because of the act of one individual, banning an entire section of society from being a part of it?
Locking people away because of a lack of understanding, is I am afraid from an era of the past and frankly a rather distasteful concept given the dreadful stories about how vulnerable people are mistreated by those ‘caring’ for them.
By no means a comparison but civil rights groups successfully removed oppressive regimes such as Segregation and Apartheid which certain groups, by virtue of birth, fear and hatred, became excluded from equal and humane treatment.
It appears that Guernsey has no Discrimination and Disability Act like the UK and the rest of Europe, which would make it unlawful for anyone to be excluded or treated differently because of their disability.
I used the word Draconian because by definition it would be “unusually severe, cruel, harsh and punitive” to enact some of the suggestions on this forum just because someone has a different understanding of the world.
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many developmentally disabled “adults” are legally perpetual children in that they have had a guardian and power of attorney assigned them because they are mentally incompetent.the “poa” or guardian is then responsible to a large extent for this person`s actions.unfortunately, some actions may never have before been expresssed and that first time can be devestating.prison would probably not affect this individual(as far as punishment or rehabilitation)but certainly an unpredictably violent person should not be exposed to the public.also, his supervision must include constant psychiatric evaluation and drug therapy that would ensure that anyone who comes in contact with him is safe.when this is not provided it should be considered criminally negligent.
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I used to work with children with autism, its a complex condition, which for alot of people have little patience or understanding, however in most cases the child or adult with autism knows between right and wrong but find it much more difficult to express themselves. Although i believe that this particular incident should of been prevented, even with autism this 18 year old would still have the strengh of a “normal” adult male and could of inflicted serious damage, the parents or carer of this young man should be held responsible for his behaviour and ensure that this incident will not happen again to any other child or family, but also for the protection of the young man himself from people who may not be tolerant of is actions and retaliate against him.
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The parents of the Autistic adult should not take him in areas that can cause a meltdown. It’s the parents fault, not the person with Autism. They are sinless. They don’t do things intentionally like NTs, PERIOD.
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I cannot believe most of the comments here. You obviously no absolutley nothing about autism and what effect it has. I myself have a profoundly autistic son who is 5 yrs old. He suffers so many problems that i could type all night and not even scratch the surface! But the worst if sensory overload. Certain noises, lights, textures…. anything can be too much for him take. To him a baby crying is like someone scratching their nails down a blackboard! It is physically painfully for him to hear it. His reaction is to make it stop in the only way he knows how, to lash out. I have to younger children, one who is only 10months old and I have had to make sure that my son is never left alone with them. He doesnt understand that by lashing out he can actually do some physical harm.
Why should this lad miss out on life by being locked away beacause he suffers from such a complicated mental disability? If anyone is to blame it is not him, but the people who are responsible for him. They should be making sure he is not in a situation where he will react in such a manner. Or if that is not possible, then someone should be present who can difuse the situation before it gets to such a stage.
I find life with my son extremely hard. But he is not evil. He is a very sweet and caring boy who just cannot control his emotions or reactions. And i love him very much, I wouldnt be without him.
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Just to clarify… I do not in any way condone the actions of this lad. It is sooo sad that this poor baby was hurt in such a manner. What i am saying is that the incident does not make him an animal. If He had knowingly set out to harm this child it would be a different story. But being profoundly autistic means he had no control over his actions/response, and no understanding of what the outcome would be.
How many of you have thrown your alarm clocks and broke them to stop the noise? I bet you did’nt mean to break it, and wished after that you had reacted differently. At the time all you wanted to do was make the noise stop NOT break the alarm. That is exactly what has happened here! The only difference is you would understand that you broke the clock, The lad in question would have had no idea that he had hurt the child. Please try to have alittle more understand for him. If it was a 2 or 3 year old hurt the child, would you still react in the same way?
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everyone on here who has no idea about autism should go and work with someone who has autism and im sure your comments will be very different. why do you all presume that its a “he”….
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