Comments on: eBorders will ruin boating

Comments on: eBorders will ruin boating http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/ Island News, Sport, Community & Lifestyle Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:04:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: JohnnyB http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42316 JohnnyB Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:59:08 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42316 I watched the Govt select committee discuss the boating issue a coupe of weeks ago. Their concern was a terrorist attack (yes, that tired old ruse). One Labour MP wanted every leisure craft (all 1 million of them) inserted with tracking and ID chips. The Harbourmasters Chief rather cheerily pointed out fitting them would be open to abuse of pirates 'defitting them and refitting them" onto other craft. The possible abuses of such a system outweighed any benefit and of course you can always expect the rogues to run the system to the letter to beat it. At some point we need a vote to decide if we the people support a system that monitors each other or we treat people, each other, with respect and privacy they deserve and the benefit of the doubt (99.99% of us are law abiding 99.99% of the time). Like the onerous mindnumbing checks at airport do we want to screen 100% of the people 100% of the time or as in the old days hook out the odd 1% for a check over? The latter system works far better to my mind rather than treating everyone like a criminal as we do now. Is it our fault the State treats everyone as a potential threat because it's too ignorant to better? Far better we are all treated as innocent unless the State suspects something otherwise. I watched the Govt select committee discuss the boating issue a coupe of weeks ago. Their concern was a terrorist attack (yes, that tired old ruse). One Labour MP wanted every leisure craft (all 1 million of them) inserted with tracking and ID chips.

The Harbourmasters Chief rather cheerily pointed out fitting them would be open to abuse of pirates ‘defitting them and refitting them” onto other craft. The possible abuses of such a system outweighed any benefit and of course you can always expect the rogues to run the system to the letter to beat it.

At some point we need a vote to decide if we the people support a system that monitors each other or we treat people, each other, with respect and privacy they deserve and the benefit of the doubt (99.99% of us are law abiding 99.99% of the time). Like the onerous mindnumbing checks at airport do we want to screen 100% of the people 100% of the time or as in the old days hook out the odd 1% for a check over?

The latter system works far better to my mind rather than treating everyone like a criminal as we do now. Is it our fault the State treats everyone as a potential threat because it’s too ignorant to better? Far better we are all treated as innocent unless the State suspects something otherwise.

]]> By: Jackie http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42290 Jackie Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:13:08 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42290 >>People in positions of ‘alleged’ respect such as Commodores<< I've always found that strange people carrying their service titles through to their twilight years. From now on you can call me "Ho Jackie". I did a spell in service. >>People in positions of ‘alleged’ respect such as Commodores<<

I’ve always found that strange people carrying their service titles through to their twilight years.

From now on you can call me “Ho Jackie”. I did a spell in service.

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]]> By: Michael R http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42289 Michael R Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:10:20 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42289 The Royal Yachting Association view the e-Borders proposals with some concern and have set their legal team on the case:- http://www.rya.org.uk/AboutRYA/lobbyact/Pages/e-Borders.aspx The Royal Yachting Association view the e-Borders proposals with some concern and have set their legal team on the case:-

http://www.rya.org.uk/AboutRYA/lobbyact/Pages/e-Borders.aspx

]]> By: Bob http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42274 Bob Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:12:35 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42274 Darren - I have no chip on my shoulder, but the government will probably want to install one, to keep a track of my movements. Mind, it would be a second-class Guernsey chip, with limited EC rights. The best time to sink these proposals IS at the proposal stage. Once the detail has been worked up, they are practically unstoppable. Mr Prow, Sam Maindonald et al know that full well. Darren – I have no chip on my shoulder, but the government will probably want to install one, to keep a track of my movements.
Mind, it would be a second-class Guernsey chip, with limited EC rights.
The best time to sink these proposals IS at the proposal stage. Once the detail has been worked up, they are practically unstoppable.
Mr Prow, Sam Maindonald et al know that full well.

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]]> By: On the Beach http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42255 On the Beach Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:21:15 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42255 Am I going to be asked to complete the e-borders form when I want to take my canoe to Herm?...Where did i put my pen, oh yes, right next to the handbrake! Am I going to be asked to complete the e-borders form when I want to take my canoe to Herm?…Where did i put my pen, oh yes, right next to the handbrake!

]]> By: JohnnyB http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42186 JohnnyB Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:38:57 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42186 What a farce. £5,000 fine for not submitting your travel details? You ARE joking? This isn't 'e' anything. It's oppressive tripe from Britain, now the most spied on nation in the world, Totalitarian states included. This is the Big Brother trend line doomed to decline and fail in any self-respecting country calling itself a democracy. Guernsey, tell Blighty and the Queen, to mind their own business What a farce. £5,000 fine for not submitting your travel details? You ARE joking?

This isn’t ‘e’ anything. It’s oppressive tripe from Britain, now the most spied on nation in the world, Totalitarian states included. This is the Big Brother trend line doomed to decline and fail in any self-respecting country calling itself a democracy.

Guernsey, tell Blighty and the Queen, to mind their own business

]]> By: GuernseyBob http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42114 GuernseyBob Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:48:14 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42114 I seem to remember an article in the GEP a week or so ago saying this e-borders 'thing' was going to cost the States (ie us taxpayers) somewhere around £400,000. This on top of our £175m black hole. This is money we have not got for something we do not want. Come on States of Guernsey, have some backbone and stand up to the bullies of Westminster and Brussels. I seem to remember an article in the GEP a week or so ago saying this e-borders ‘thing’ was going to cost the States (ie us taxpayers) somewhere around £400,000. This on top of our £175m black hole. This is money we have not got for something we do not want. Come on States of Guernsey, have some backbone and stand up to the bullies of Westminster and Brussels.

]]> By: Russ http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42107 Russ Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:14:25 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42107 It seems to me that the Press are giving only a fraction of the story for us to react to (just for a change). I do not know the full extent of the proposed e-borders system but my thoughts are that it will only affect the small number of local boaters that actually use their craft to travel to another island, the UK or France. Most (like me) just take their boats out for the day and return to base. Surely this is not going to warrant having to register some kind of travel plan each time. In the summer, the Home Dept would have 500 requests to go to Shell Beach each weekend!! To France, the UK mainland and elsewhere I can understand the proposal to a certain extent, as much from a safety perspective as anything else. Locally, this would be daft. It seems to me that the Press are giving only a fraction of the story for us to react to (just for a change).

I do not know the full extent of the proposed e-borders system but my thoughts are that it will only affect the small number of local boaters that actually use their craft to travel to another island, the UK or France.

Most (like me) just take their boats out for the day and return to base. Surely this is not going to warrant having to register some kind of travel plan each time.

In the summer, the Home Dept would have 500 requests to go to Shell Beach each weekend!!

To France, the UK mainland and elsewhere I can understand the proposal to a certain extent, as much from a safety perspective as anything else. Locally, this would be daft.

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]]> By: Scott http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42098 Scott Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:18:57 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42098 Well as a boat owner I was going to give them a notice of my intention to travel everyday, just incase I wanted to go out. At least then im covered and if I dont travel because the wind comes up or I change my mind they have done the work for nothing. I should imagine they wont mind doing this as the States tend to get paid for doing very little now. Maybe they will decide all boats need to be fitted with AIS so they can track exactly where we are at any given time? Well as a boat owner I was going to give them a notice of my intention to travel everyday, just incase I wanted to go out. At least then im covered and if I dont travel because the wind comes up or I change my mind they have done the work for nothing. I should imagine they wont mind doing this as the States tend to get paid for doing very little now.
Maybe they will decide all boats need to be fitted with AIS so they can track exactly where we are at any given time?

]]> By: Andy http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42083 Andy Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:16:22 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42083 ASBOs/Dispersal Orders/Removal of Right to Silence/Internment/Criminalisation of the Right to Protest/Camera Surveillance/Biometric ID cards/Forced Identification when not even driving a vehicle these are some of the rules they have forced on the UK Citizens. Just say NO! ASBOs/Dispersal Orders/Removal of Right to Silence/Internment/Criminalisation of the Right to Protest/Camera Surveillance/Biometric ID cards/Forced Identification when not even driving a vehicle these are some of the rules they have forced on the UK Citizens.

Just say NO!

]]> By: Jackie http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42082 Jackie Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:13:51 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42082 David You will need to ensure that the mackeral is local. Last thing we want is some radicalised islamic pelagic sneaking up Saints hill in your bucket. You need to take far more responsibility for your actions and consider the effect your hobby might have on the wider community. I am outraged - again. David

You will need to ensure that the mackeral is local. Last thing we want is some radicalised islamic pelagic sneaking up Saints hill in your bucket.

You need to take far more responsibility for your actions and consider the effect your hobby might have on the wider community.

I am outraged – again.

]]> By: David http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42013 David Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:35:52 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-42013 When l go fishing, from Saints Harbour, do l tell the Home Department or the mackerel first. When l go fishing, from Saints Harbour, do l tell the Home Department or the mackerel first.

]]> By: feral http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-41926 feral Sat, 21 Mar 2009 22:28:56 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-41926 Darren, i do agree that we are all getting hot under the collar without knowing the full details of this scheme, and that all we have to go on is what has been reported to date - and media do like to sensationalise. However i believe that the strength of opinion being aired is due to the perceived personal restrictions that would appear to be being forced on us by the uk, and frustration at the apparent acquiescence of our elected representatives with over zealous uk rule makers. We all stand to be corrected if e-borders turns out not be an onerous infringement of liberties (or we do not adopt it). I appreciate the guernsey lifestyle, and consider that much of what contributes to this lifestyle is what sets us apart from the uk. I suspect that you're not a guernseyman and would be happy to see the islands follow the same downhill path that the uk has taken in many aspects over recent years? Darren, i do agree that we are all getting hot under the collar without knowing the full details of this scheme, and that all we have to go on is what has been reported to date – and media do like to sensationalise. However i believe that the strength of opinion being aired is due to the perceived personal restrictions that would appear to be being forced on us by the uk, and frustration at the apparent acquiescence of our elected representatives with over zealous uk rule makers. We all stand to be corrected if e-borders turns out not be an onerous infringement of liberties (or we do not adopt it). I appreciate the guernsey lifestyle, and consider that much of what contributes to this lifestyle is what sets us apart from the uk. I suspect that you’re not a guernseyman and would be happy to see the islands follow the same downhill path that the uk has taken in many aspects over recent years?

]]> By: Michael LL http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-41925 Michael LL Sat, 21 Mar 2009 22:26:43 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-41925 This idea is farsicle, typical idiotic ideas from our government. The worst government we have ever had. With the quick changing weather and wave conditions around even Guernsey let alone the rest of the islands, you cannot say someone has to give their journey intentions out 24 hours in advance and hope they come back and say yes to you. We have to keep our boat in one of the bays in the summer because we have no harbour mooring yet and when the weather gets above force 5 I have to move it into the harbour for shelter sometimes at a few hours notice or it will drag it's mooring and be on the rocks. I certainly am not going to let our boat which we have spent a lot of money on get ruined. Then what would the insurance say when I tell them "oh I could not move it to shelter because some idiot from this scheme had not got back to me to allow me to move it". If this ridiculous idea comes in I certainly am not going to bother doing it. If they tried to fine me £5000 I would have to claim benifits from the states to be able to live. Where will the government find the money to employ the extra staff to assess your trip out? Will all the countries of the world have to do this? I could see it ending up like the NHS and there being a massive waiting list, they won't get back to you for 6 months for a trip you wanted to do tomarrow. What will be next? they will want you to tell them every car, bike or bus journey you are doing the next day!!! This idea is farsicle, typical idiotic ideas from our government. The worst government we have ever had. With the quick changing weather and wave conditions around even Guernsey let alone the rest of the islands, you cannot say someone has to give their journey intentions out 24 hours in advance and hope they come back and say yes to you.

We have to keep our boat in one of the bays in the summer because we have no harbour mooring yet and when the weather gets above force 5 I have to move it into the harbour for shelter sometimes at a few hours notice or it will drag it’s mooring and be on the rocks.

I certainly am not going to let our boat which we have spent a lot of money on get ruined. Then what would the insurance say when I tell them “oh I could not move it to shelter because some idiot from this scheme had not got back to me to allow me to move it”.

If this ridiculous idea comes in I certainly am not going to bother doing it. If they tried to fine me £5000 I would have to claim benifits from the states to be able to live.

Where will the government find the money to employ the extra staff to assess your trip out?

Will all the countries of the world have to do this?

I could see it ending up like the NHS and there being a massive waiting list, they won’t get back to you for 6 months for a trip you wanted to do tomarrow. What will be next? they will want you to tell them every car, bike or bus journey you are doing the next day!!!

]]> By: Darren http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-41919 Darren Sat, 21 Mar 2009 21:21:35 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/17/eborders-will-ruin-boating/#comment-41919 Charlie You make a good argument - no quibbles about your points which are obviously well researched. The UK Information Commissioner clearly echoes my views in that it would be dispraportionate to expect people who reside in the UK to issue 48 hours notice of travel. The only caveat I would suggest might be worth them considering to make it more viable is that the data be given over even if it is within 24 hours to they are able to retrospectively check a movement - that way if they still wish to view the history of movement it is feasible. With this is mind it would probably be fair to stipulate that any non UK residents provide 24 hours notice minimum (as they are likely to not have the Bio data to which you refer in the Machine Readable Zone). Good to finally have some intellectual discussion on here for once. Cheers Charlie. Charlie

You make a good argument – no quibbles about your points which are obviously well researched.

The UK Information Commissioner clearly echoes my views in that it would be dispraportionate to expect people who reside in the UK to issue 48 hours notice of travel.

The only caveat I would suggest might be worth them considering to make it more viable is that the data be given over even if it is within 24 hours to they are able to retrospectively check a movement – that way if they still wish to view the history of movement it is feasible. With this is mind it would probably be fair to stipulate that any non UK residents provide 24 hours notice minimum (as they are likely to not have the Bio data to which you refer in the Machine Readable Zone).

Good to finally have some intellectual discussion on here for once. Cheers Charlie.

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