HOUSING is considering changing its procedures in light of a critical Royal Court judgement.
The court found that teacher Jane Kinley should be allowed to stay in the island even though her housing licence application, made on compassionate grounds, had been turned down.
It said that Miss Kinley – who had been teaching at Vauvert for almost eight years – had not been given a full account of the reasons why her application had been rejected. The department was criticised for its lack of care.
Housing minister Dave Jones (pictured) said that as the application was still live, it would not be appropriate for him or his department to comment on the case.
‘The department discharges this function to the best of its ability but, inevitably, given the volume of cases that we deal with, there will be occasions when the courts will reach a different conclusion to the department,’ he said.
‘Clearly the department needs time to absorb the court’s findings and to take steps to alter its procedures where, in the court’s opinion, these procedures are lacking.’
He said that making decisions on someone’s future was difficult for all parties involved.
‘However, it is important to keep matters in perspective,’ he said.
‘Of the thousands of cases decided by the department each year, less than a handful proceed to appeal and of those that do, it is by no means a foregone conclusion that the department’s decision will not be upheld.’
Deputy Jones said that the Housing Needs Survey highlighted that, at the time it was conducted, 81% of people wishing to set up a home were single people or couples without dependent children.
Comment Page 20
Article posted on 7th July, 2009 - 2.29pm
36 Article Comments
How many cases do Housing deal with to make it an excuse for a repeated lack of care?
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My only concern is any tweaking of the current Housing laws off the back of this case may open the floodgates for immigration of the likes we have never seen. It will see massive home building on so-called green belt and brown belt areas. The joining of the financial Maginot line from Admiral Park to RBSI with new compulsory purchase laws brought in for such a venture. A loss of local jobs with none locals taken up instead, massive inflation including house/apartment prices, thereby seeing a reduction in locals returning to the island because they can never afford to live in their home island but wealthy english can.An increase in locals leaving their island home. Belgrave Bay filled in with no or little opposition.
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Are you sure, Stalin?
Are we about to be invaded by teachers?
I’ll never get any work done with all the standing up I’ll be doing whenever one walks nearby.
Life will be a constant register.
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Bingo-Jane, please write out 1,000 times
‘I must not disagree with Stalins brilliant comments’
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What a fuss.
If Jane can’t get her licence renewed her replacement will get one and it will cost the States to advertise and in any case how could the occupant of a one-bedroomed hole in the wall possibly affect the housing situation?
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What are our housing policies precisely?
Why are africans, asians and other immigrants for the banking industry doing in local market flats??
This raises the prices and drives out locals. This is a farce and needs addressing immediately
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Johnny B
I think you will find that many of the “Africans, Asians and immigrants for the banking industry” are (a) working for accountancy firms and law firms, rather than banks, (b) holding British or other EU passports, or (c) are from outside the EU but hold necessary work permits to work in the British Isles (which for immigration purposes includes Guernsey) because Guernsey is unable to produce enough home-grown accountants and lawyers to service the finance industry.
To stress the importance of the accountants in particular, most of them are auditors. Financial institutions licensed in Guernsey must submit annual audited accounts in a timely manner. If there are no auditors then there are no audited accounts, and no audited accounts equals no banks, no funds, no captive insurance companies, no trust business etc. Its fair to say that they are essential in order to protect our core industry. Most of them come on 3-year housing licences, not 15-year licences, and most of them occupy 1-bedroom flats or open market houses owned by their employer for that very purpose.
They are most certainly not “driving out locals”.
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David
I agree with your rubbishing of Johnny B.
Shame that auditors and lawyers are complicit in the banking crisis and are still calling for business as usual despite their bread and butter being saved by the tax payer at huge cost.
The Big 4 are entirely discredited. But that’s another issue :)
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David – 100 % agree.
Johnny B – be careful you are very closely bordering on racism.
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Arnald
I don’t think the Guernsey-based auditors and lawyers are too responsible for the world banking crisis !
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David
I’ll wait for an appropriate thread to respond to that!
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Arnald
Auditing and the accountancy profession in general has changed massively which is reflected in the fact that the island is having to draft in from elsewhere purley because there isnt a large enough base of indivuduals with the intelligence locally to become accountans and lawyers, because its not easy.
Its blinkered comments like yours that discredit the profession.
Anyway, so long as we are slinging in one-liners as to who’s the blame for the financial crisis, I’ll throw mine into the hat
The regulators!
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The Man
Auditors discredited? Stop the press…
Accountants wallowing in the gravy trough? Say it ain’t so…
Job creation for making sure folk don’t pay their tax where it’s due.
Ho hum, it pays the bills.
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Roberto
Jane actually has a one bedroom hole in the wall! That must have been an oversight by Housing who informed my husband that because I was sleeping with him in a double bed in one of your island hotel bedrooms I was taking up space that could be used by an islander!
We didn’t get that either but doubtless Stalin can explain it to us. Or maybe Guerns just have different ideas about marriage.
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Arnald
Surely someone clearly as intelligent as yourself should realise that there are more facets to accountants than tax evasion??
Shall we start on Lawyers now??
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The Man
Of course, but the companies that employ those accountants are pretty much driven to play the system because that’s where they generate their massive profits from.
Helping the rich and corps avoid paying their fair share. So not only do governments lose tax revenue, but the industry that is supposed to maintain compliance with the rules that they set seeks aggressively to protect this modus operandi. It is tainted.
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Arnald
You dont have to tell me that its tainted, but this is not the fault of accountants, who merely play a flawed system.
Dont hate the player, hate the game!
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Johnny B – they are here because the are cheaper than training locals to do the work. They DO distort the market and lower the salary expectations of locally qualified staff – as would any immigrant labour. We have seen CAs bought in from Eire and Africa at less than I’d pay a experienced though unqualified bookkeeper/ senior administrator.
The Man – the brighter locals can earn a sight more than the salaries the bigger accounting firms will pay the imports – without having to sit any tough exams.
Going by the CVs I have seen, they are available at roughly two-thirds of the equivalent locally qualified staff. This in the short-run is OK, as the licensing system is supposed to enable firms to train locals. In the longer run, I doubt the larger firms are doing that. If there was a genuine shortage of auditors, the big four or five are on short-time working in UK. All could fly in sub-contract auditors from UK associate firms to do the work, without needing to employ any additional staff locally. Again, as I understand it, from “Big Four” contacts, they aren’t all that busy at the moment…
Much better to pay £30k+ than £50k. Then £30k+ becomes the norm… so we no longer train anyone…because it becomes too expensive.
Have their fees gone down? I doubt it!
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Katie, two points here..
1) We need superb teachers, nurses, doctors and other professionals from outside of the island and the housing laws need addressing.
2) Your comment about Guerns marriages, our culture sadly mirrors that of much of the UK so there really is no difference in the way Guernsey people conduct their married life’s compared with that of a UK resident. Hope this clears up your little quandary.
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I have to laugh, and laugh.
Dave Jones can’t wait to get on this forum at every opportunity and shoot people down, but as soon as he comes in for some criticism he hides behind a facade.
Dave – under the laws provided in respect of the privacy act you are required in respect of PII – public interest, to disclose your cock up.
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Darren
Nailed on bud…
If ever an absence was conspicuous……..
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Darren
First of all I have been away for a week if that is OK with you,
Secondly I cannot comment on individual cases as the Board will have this judgment to look at, as it is still a live application.
However I will say this, we have at present several local primary school teachers looking for jobs and we only have one education department so it is important that we do not block local jobs for returning teachers by issuing long term licences.
I will also add if the law needs changing it is a matter for the States; it is not an immigration law and never has been it is about protecting a finite local housing stock for local people or those who are absolutely essential to Guernsey. Also it is not about individual licences, every person or couple who has earned the right to stay permanently in Guernsey is free to bring their entire family with them including extended family. That over a period of time will run into many hundreds of people who will then over a period of time accrue rights of their own and will bring other members of those extended families. So it is your choice to decide what type of island you want to live in the future.
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for once i agree with deputy jones, however i don’t think the problem is all the licence holders over here, it is the people that come over here and don’t need a housing licence because they live in hotel rooms and open market properties and do the jobs that normal locals are more than able to do, they outnumber the licence holders 10 to 1
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Mr Jones
You sound as though you would prefer Guernsey to be self sufficient with its own and not recruit any immigrant workers. This is fine but just do it instead of pontificating ifs and buts. Do it and if you can’t do it immediately, improvise.
If you feel that no immigrant workers are neither a practicable nor a viable alternative and that you must recruit external individuals then you need to consider a policy that is reasonable and workable rather than the inhuman feudal mess it is at present.
Try looking at the Isles of Scilly if you need guidance on how to treat immigrant workers. The Islands are barely a third the size of Guernsey and have an indigenous population of 2000. Scillonians do appear to be more flexible, adaptable and able to multi-task than Guernsey folk. However, Scilly has immigrant workers but they have no immigration policy; they do not split families up, and they do not imprison you if you sleep under the wrong roof or stray over the 90 day limit. Neither are they disappearing under a pile of concrete. Building policy on Scilly is far far more strict than on Guernsey.
If it can work for Scilly why cannot the same principles work for Guernsey?
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Katie
I suppose once all the daffodils in the Scilly Isles have been picked all the immigrant workers go back home ?
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Ray
Shows how little you know of Scilly. Daffodils are a winter commodity and local families run the flower businesses; athough immigrant workers may sometimes help out.
The immigrants work as teachers, vets, police, lawyers, catering & hospitality, the list is endless, because the Scillies, the ‘Fortunate Isles’ as they are known, accept that they need staff both for their own needs and the thousands of visitors who return year after year drawn by the sheer magic of Scilly. Not maybe a comment you could apply to Guernsey….
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Darren
Dave Jones comes on here often to answer the critics, so i think you should speak from facts rather than just use this as an excuse for having a dig.
How many other deputies bother to respond on here?
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The difference is Katie the Scilly Isles are part of the United Kingdom we are not, that is why they have no immigration policy, any UK resident is free to move to the Scilly Isles if they choose. Fortunately we have our own laws on who can come and live and work in Guernsey and they have been introduced for the benefit of islanders. We also have a lot of training programmes that are designed to help firms employ more and more local people, it is true we will never grow enough local labour to fill every post but that doesn’t mean to say that we should not try other ways of attracting local people back to Guernsey to work in our public services and other industries.
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Sorry, Dave, but I must correct you. Any UK resident is NOT free to just move to the Isles of Scilly. They must first undergo a vetting process, firstly by the Duchy of Cornwall, and then the Isles of Scilly Council also have an input. Most properties have no freehold and you must be prepared to accept Duchy regulations in full.
If you are accepted you may stay as long as you wish and you may have your immediate family with you.
If you are rejected, however, they do not limit the amount of time you may spend there as a holidaymaker; with or without your family.
At no time does the question of imprisonment over an accommodation issue arise unless you commit violence on someone.
It might be painful for you to admit to this but maybe a more enlightened and less harsh regime might work for Guernsey as well.
Why can you not just look at how other islands approach their problems (of work; population; rubbish; sewage on the beaches; whatever} and see if there are any positive ideas that Guernsey might adopt.
Or are Guerns called donkeys for a very good reason?
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Katie
Are you quite sure that those restrictions are correct as you describe? I an sceptical for two reasons. Firstly, the Scilly Isles are constitutionally part or the UK. As such, not just any UK national but indeed any EU national has the freedom to reside there. Secondly, it would seem more likely that it is a restriction on who can lease one of the Duchy of Cornwall’s leasehold properties. Many head landlords retain such a right. However they cannot lawfully discriminate in favour or against any one or more groups.
Guernsey’s housing laws do not allow us to prevent anybody from acquiring a property here but because we are not part of the EU we are permitted to control who occupies Guernsey property. I cannot see how the Scilly Isles, as part of the UK and the EU, could operate the same control, so it seems likely that this is just a landlord’s control over who can be a tenant of the Duchy’s property and so would be inappropriate for Guernsey.
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Dave
Maybe this is the legal technicality but in practice the Scillies want people who will love the islands and want to be there for the sake of living in such a magical and beautiful place; and not for commercial reasons.
I know because I lived there. I know of people who were rejected. I know people who were accepted.
Whatever Guernsey decides I still believe your policy of splitting families and of imprisonment for sleeping ‘illegally’ or transgressing the 90 day rule to be wrong.
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Katie – I am not sure I like the sound of your idea of “we accept the ones the like and reject the ones we don’t”. Sounds pretty subjective to me.
I also agree with Dave Jones that it sounds like a landlord determining who may rent his land, rather than a self-determining country setting out objective laws.
I don’t think that making all land in Guernsey leasehold, so that no-one actually owns their own land but so that the States can pick and choose who stays is a particularly good idea.
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TL
In this respect Scilly’s method is only a variation of the Guernsey theme. In Scilly’s case they don’t want to sell their souls for money.
I never said that you should make Guernsey leasehold. I said that Guernsey should have a less inhuman feudal way of doing things. Whatever the case, Scilly does not split familes or imprison people who stay in ‘illegal’ premises. Scilly doesn’t have ‘illegal’ premises!
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Katie – but it is a completely futile comparison as the differences are too great. Scilly is a glorified private estate owned by the Duchy of Cornwall, where very few people own their own land. The Duchy ultimately decides whether you stay or go based on the terms of the leases that it grants. People cannot acquire land and try to build on it, because there is very little land in private ownership. Scilly does not have “illegal” premises because land ownership is not free, unlike in Guernsey where anyone is free to buy land.
As well as the land situation being completely different, the demand to live there is different because the vast majority of the income of Scilly comes from tourism. There are only so many people that can live there and run a tourism business.
In Guernsey, we have tourism but we also have commerce, as well as other industries. The demand for people to set up financial services businesses here far exceeds the ability of the island to supply housing to those people. Without restructions, Guernsey would be overrun, to the detriment of people to whom this is truly home.
Scilly simply does not have the pressures that Guernsey experiences.
And as for splitting families, well if you accept that there is a need for the law, that unfortunately means that there is a need to enforce the law. If people choose to try to bend the rules, they run the risk of enforcement proceedings.
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TL
Being told [by the Housing Dept] that it is ‘illegal’ for me to sleep with my own husband in a room in one of your hotels doesn’t, to me, seem to take account of the legalities or leasehold/ freehold of the land on which the hotel stands. The point I am making is that in Scilly one can sleep in such public establishments without fear of arrest.
Fear of arrest in Guernsey is very real since your country does not have Habeas Corpus and therefore one could be held without limit. There is a precedent for this [Luwee Harris 1900] and Guernsey, like the UK, loves legal precedents.
Scilly may be bound to the Duchy of Cornwall but at least it has a heart and compassion.
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Katie – you obviously have an axe to grind but you must have broken the law in some way in order for it to get to that point. If your husband was on a short term licence then it would not extend to you, and so your ability to stay is limited by law regardless of the fact that your husband can stay for longer. These rules are there to prevent abuse of the system. Longer term licences, which do extend to families, are granted for essential workers.
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