FEARS of crime have forced Housing to hire a private security firm to patrol the Grand Bouet estate.
Residents say there has been a rise in vandalism, arson and antisocial behaviour as tenants move out.
The young families and elderly people remaining there are now living between vacant, boarded up houses on the three-quarters empty estate that is scheduled for demolition next year.
Vacant properties have become a target for troublemakers, prompting Housing to hire Maximum Security.
The company started on a one-week trial on 30 October and its contract will now continue until at least the end of the year.
A Housing spokesman said it had appointed the firm in response to a number of break-ins at boarded up properties and in anticipation of increased antisocial behaviour on Halloween and Guy Fawkes Night, which had both passed without significant incident.
Housing minister Dave Jones said employing the company was the best way to monitor the situation.
‘We have a fair number of properties that are boarded up and with bonfire night we thought the residents needed special looking after,’ said Deputy Jones.
Article posted on 10th November, 2009 - 2.30pm
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75 Article Comments
I’m staggered by this. How much is all this costing us? What happened to the ‘vandalism initiative’that was instigated by Deputy Barry Brehaut I think it was? It’s about time we forgot all about this ‘touchy feely’ nonsense and trying to understand these scum and came down hard on them. The tail is wagging the dog, it should be these low lives that should be afraid of being caught and given proper deterrent sentences, not the long suffering residents living in fear where ever they reside. Get the police down there with vans and dogs if necessary, and anyone unable to give a good account of themselves or caught breaking the law make them pay for any damage done or failing that make their parents responsible. It’s long over due that Guernsey stamps down hard on this sort of thing once and for all. Guernsey residents have given the Deputies the mandate to act on this after that ‘vandal initiative’ let’s see some action for once.
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Beaufort – a tad harsh dont you think? Are you telling me that in your youth, you never hung around, or perhaps committed any misdemeanour? If you have not then from now on we shall all call you Saint Beaufort. So lets use words that are abit more appropriate. Scum=bad. Is it any wonder that some youth feel isolated, misunderstood and completely useless when they see themselves being labelled in such a manner. Cost – is cost an issue? If there is a possibility of tenants being in danger, then surely the cost to reduce that risk is worth every penny? How do you propose we fund all the salaries and pension etc etc of the 150 or so extra police you intend to draft in to sort this out? Perhaps we should bring back the Gallows? As for seeing action, i think you will find Housing just took some.
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Security Guards check now and then, a waste of money and no results…
Police check sometimes, already on the payroll but no results…
CCTV operates 24 x 7, value for money and yobs caught in the act…
Wake up Housing…
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I agree entirely with Beaufort. To have to rely on a private security company for protection shows that there is something wrong with the policing methods. This,on top of the police stating that there was nothing they could do about troublemakers in the sunken garden, proves that the police are not given enough powers to deal with them.
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I don’t remember reading anything about the application of the birch being outlawed in Guernsey. The (not empty) threat of the birch keeps the people of Singapore happy safe and virtually crime free. This doesn’t mean that the birch is used on a daily basis, despite what those with an interest in the proliferation of crime have to say on the subject.
Bring back the birch and get rid of everything in that hotel-like prison of yours that contributes to the comfort of prisoners. Replace with the bare necessities of life and a regimen of strict discipline exerted with corporal punishment when necessary.
I guarantee you that Guernsey would soon be the safe happy place it used to be – just like Singapore.
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Well said Beaufort.
These people have been able to get away with their actions for far too long and believe themselves to be untouchable. By splitting them up and moving them to other States Housing estates all that will happen is the creation of “mini Bouets” and before long all States Housing residents will be living in fear.
The parents should be held accountable instead of not caring what their offspring are up to.
Send the offenders to some sort of bootcamp. Teach them what life really is all about.
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The area is always going to be a magnet for vandalism in its current state, and if the
police are unwilling or unable to patrol the
area then residents must be either moved out or protected. It is worrying that we can no longer rely on the police for protection, what is going on there? If it is a funding issue then would it
not be better to pay overtime to police officers
rather than third party security firms?
Isn’t vandalism down to boredom, wouldn’t
it be a good idea to give the kids a skate/bmx park in the area to keep them out of trouble.
If after that vandalism still occurs then let
the law deal with them. The best punishment
would be to make them clean up the area they
have vandalised in front of their peers!
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Auntie GP,
No, I can’t ever recall setting fire to empty properties or vandalising anything or making people afraid to live in their own homes. All that equates to bad in my book, so I stand by my original statement. I don’t know where you get this figure of 150 police from to sort this out. If the correct deterrents and these scum were brought up properly the police wouldn’t be required to sort this mess out on a daily basis. As to some of the youth being labelled and feeling misunderstood the ball is firmly in their court, when some of those whose behaviour falls below certain standards one expects in civilised society the labelling will stop.
I thought the ‘boredom’ card would raise its head, I can’t count the amount of sports,clubs and societies over here, no doubt cost will be mentioned, well can I suggest these youngsters perhaps get part time jobs to pay for any activity, again why should others have to subsidise their existence, although I see we do in regards to Beau Sejour which manages to lose £700,000 a year.
The tail is definitely wagging the dog here and needs to be sorted out once and for all. I see Singapore has been mentioned and I agree it is one of the most pleasant places where the general populace can go about their business and the perceived threat of crime is virtually non existent perhaps we could take a leaf out of their book.
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Excellent idea, although i think the Bouet should be turned into a concentration style camp experience theme park for the vandals that terrorise the estate, marshalled by x war vets to demonstrate just how inconsiderate they are being and how demeaning their behaviour is to the rest of the community of an island that fought and lost so much for thier freedom, i am not an avid war campaigner but i spent a good 12 yrs living on Guernsey and there is a very small minority who do not realise how lucky they are to live on such an amazing and prosperous island.
Chris
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On a lighter note, the photo used by the GP to highlight the ‘intimitating hoodie’ carries the Nike logo above it. The Ultimate product endorsement by heavenly bodies?
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Well Beaufort – im sure theres room in singapore for people like you. You make it sound like there are fires etc there all day every day. These events are not always as painted by the people that go in the paper. Remember – they are all despereate to get out of there and rightly or wrongly will do anything they can to speed the process up. If you are so concerned about it the cost – why dont you go and patrol the area, then you will get a feel of what it is actually like there. But you wont as it is easier to sit up on high and pass judgement. I do not agree with what goes on in the young community, and agree there are lessons to be learnt, but I do not believe that using words like scum and demograting “hoodies” in that way achieves anything.
Its interesting, I have a respectable job with a reasonable amount of responsibilty for people and their lives, i wear a shirt and tie to work – if im stood at a cash point behind someone – im not even noticed. At the weekends I like to wear jeans and a hoodie, stand in the same queue and all of a suddern I am noticed and people are a lot more protective of what they are doing on the ATM and you can see the cogs turning thinking “hmmm – am i about to get mugged” – its pathetic and its narrow minded indiduals like you that antagonise these situations.
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PS I personally agree with Michael Caines suggestion that National Service would be a good thing. Teach some self worth and respect for authority and discipline.
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I am slightly alarmed at the idea of the tax-payer having to fork out for this. Since when has ‘criminal behaviour’ not been a police issue? (Guernsey Press yesterday). Does anyone know what they do on the far more seriously crime ridden sink estates in places like South London? Do you reckon that the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham Housing Department hire off-duty private bouncers to keep their native gun-toting gangsters from intimidating the local council householders of a Sunday afternoon? At the expense of the tax-payer? I think not?
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Oh to live in Singapore – the highest per capita rate of execution in the world, ranked 141 out of 167 in the world for freedom of the press, restricted freedom of speech, compulsory military service (conscientious objectors are jailed), censorship of political writing etc etc, I hope Beaufort, Brian Harper et al will be very happy there.
Still, on the plus side, at least there’s no chewing gum on the streets, which kind of makes up for all the downsides, don’t you think?
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Auntie GP
What do you mean by ‘people like me?’ If by that you mean ordinary taxpayers who are fed up with seeing their island smashed up,set fire to and generally abused I guess the cap fits. BTW what happened to those scum who kicked that cat to death and the same scum who set all those shed fires we had about a year ago? I would imagine every day there is some mindless act of vandalism judging by what I see as I travel around the island. Why should I patrol the area, that is what the Police are for. If we all went to Singapore I guess there wouldn’t be anybody left to pay to clear up the mess. I notice you haven’t addressed any of the points/questions I made in my previous post?
In regard to National Service, what makes you think a professional army wants scum like that? Todays army is very different from the 1940/50’s.
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Bridge
Maximum Security will work out far cheaper than the police. The per hour cost of a police officer is astronomical, what with their pension, holidays, sick pay etc on top of their salaries.
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Beaufort,
Could’nt agree more with your sentiment,but who has the guts to tackle the problem?.And as an ex serviceman we certainly would not want such creatures in our ranks.Catch then,show them that their behaviour will not be tolerated,and if they are under age then take the parents to task!There is no problem that can’t be resolved with resolute leadership!
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Why not just get our very own vigilantes the “Guernsey Boys” to do it? Just dump some cars around the estate and they’ll appear in double quick time and do the job for free!
;-)
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By people like you I mean people who show no compassion or understanding for others less fortunate. Those that think Guernsey belongs in Desperate housewives Wysteria Lane, white picket fences and book clubs with afternoon tea. The reality is we are a welfare state and it is the duty of the community to support everyone and try and encourage those that find themselves in difficult circumstances to break what is likely to be a cycle. Many of the children are born into relative poverty, not 3rd world poverty by any stretch of the imagination, just relative to others in our affluent society. They are not encouraged to achieve at school, and are often parented by the out of sight out of mind philosophy, left to their own devices-it is natural that they will hang around and form “gangs” for want of a better word. Often the ring leader of these gangs tend to be the stronger personalities, and they set poor examples. before you know it you are stuck in the rut of mindless vandalism and wanton destruction, often in a keeping up with the joneses type attitude. Then this image is compounded by those on the outside who pass judgement without any real understanding, if you set someone up to fail, inevitably they will not disappoint.
I agree with Phil, it is far cheaper to use Maximum as a preventative measure then it is to use the police as a reactive measure. If you were in need of police, but they were unable to attend as they were focusing on the bouet you would be shouting from the roof tops. Lets show some community spirit and try and break this cycle, not quite hug a hoodie but better that then reinforcing the image of them being scum.
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Do away with Police pensions then they can employ more Bobbies rather than Bouncers.
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Auntie GP
In my younger years i was bought up on a housing estate in a large family, and yes we did get up to a bit of the normal stuff like shouting or kicking a ball into someones garden etc. But do you know none of us or my friends ever set fire to anything or scared people out of their properties. your excuses for these people are pethetic and you can be assured that when there older they`ll be the same ones beating the hell out of ome innocent person who happens to look at them the wrong way. As for the boredem thats also a joke. Next time my daughter is bored shall i not be suprised if she decides to go and set fire to something?
Beaufort
Your spot on.
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Is it just me or does this represent the privatisation of policing and security matters?
Why is this not being handled by the Police?
Why incur private security firm fees when this is the Police’s primary responsibility?
When was this debated in the States and voted on? Clearly, it wasn’t.
I agree with all of the sentiments expressed by Auntie GP. Maybe a little more understanding and a bit less arbitrary condemning would be helpful when considering social problems, including crime, and how they are connected to relative poverty.
The Townsend Report in 2003 said that approx. 15% of the population of Guernsey was living in relative poverty. I wonder what the figure is now, 5 years on? This isn’t a priority for the current Policy Council so we are not likely to find out any time soon…
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Auntie GP
I refer you to my opening post, this trying to understand them patently doesn’t work.It’s this liberal wishy washy attitude that has got us where we are. I don’t want to try and understand people with the mentality who kick cats to death for ‘fun’, and set light to things. We need a return to basics, and these people need to learn by whatever means necessary what is acceptable behaviour. If the law is being broken it is a police matter. I agree with you on one thing, this cycle needs to be broken once and for all.
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Sorry but I too agree with Beaufort and have no desire to understand these people who continually claim boredom.
Like bcb I too grew up on a large housing estate and was raised properly i.e. to respect my elders and their property regardless of who owned it. We also respected the police back in the day.
If these people are born into relative poverty why does it give them the right to act as they do? Answer me that Auntie GP and Moleman. My parents too lived in relative poverty but myself and all my siblings together with friends living in similar circumsatnces would never have dared to behave the way these people do and have been allowed to get away with for far too long now.
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@ Bridge:
You asked “Does anyone know what they do on the far more seriously crime ridden sink estates in places like South London?”
Yes, I do know what they do:
1. Have more CCTV
2. Employ more police officers in problem areas
3. Engage in ‘partnership working’
4. Use legal powers that Guernsey Police do not have available to them
5. Employ private security on occasions
6. Employ PCSOs
And where do you think the money comes from to support all the additional resources they use to police South London Boroughs? That’s right, the tax payers pocket. So I think your last sentence is rather unrealistic, and inaccurate.
The result of all the extra spending in the UK? Far far higher crime levels than we have in Guernsey, and a far worse detection rate. The Police in Guernsey need to be applauded for how they manage to keep any kind of cap on crime here with such phenomenally poor resources and support from ‘partner’ agencies.
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I have to speak up in support of “Auntie GP”. The attitude of the majority of posters to this thread is rotten beyond belief. Rather than castize those who are responsible for the vandalism etc, it is about time people looked to themselves to find out where the finger of blame is pointing.
Our society is completely selfish – but that is what Guernsey has promoted – get rich quick at the expense of everyone else. Relative poverty over here should be sickening for what pertains to be an affluent community. The children of those who have nothing have no aspirations. All they see is the wealthy getting wealthier, and themselves living on what is, relatively, less and less every week.
It is not time for stamping down or bringing back the birch. It is time for the island to reassess its priorities. The answer is not to stamp harder on those at the bottom of the pile, but to give everyone an equal opportunity and the equal desire to succeed. Those people who can afford three meals a day, to run a car and go on holiday are so far removed from the reality of many on this island that your comments are worthless.
You should be very, very ashamed of yourselves.
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Beaufort
You “don’t want to try and understand people with the mentality who kick cats to death for fun and set light to things”?
Personally I don’t want to try and understand people who would like to whip/birch/kill other human beings, and who favour Guernsey becoming a repressive regime.
See how we’re all different?
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A number of posts appear to be saying that all at the Bouet are at fault, they are not, and with other areas of the Island it is a minority of those living there that cause the damage. There are great people and families there, let us not forget that.
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Did Max Security win a tender or something, or is it just good old fashioned Policy Council nepotism ?
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Beaufort.
Your comments are disgusting.
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Phil.
Can you point out where I’ve advocated ‘like to whip/birch/kill other human beings, and who favour Guernsey becoming a repressive regime’ you’ve brought the subject up of the birch not me.You need to read what I’ve actually typed, and not put words in my mouth.I don’t see how you can defened the indefensible, you would actually like to live somewhere where you were afraid to step out of your own house?
My View
I haven’t mentioned the Bouet either. In one of my previous posts I stated that ‘residents living of fear’, that goes for anywhere on the Island, I agree it is a minority spoiling things for the majority.
I see the yobs who claimed they were willing to help Parks & Gardens reinstate the sunken garden that was smashed up didn’t bother turning up or have the courtesy to let anybody know they had no intention of attending.Before anyone starts on about it being during school time, the original damage was caused during school time and it didn’t seem to make any difference then.Ask any of the office workers in the area, they were there at all hours.
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Beaufort, really, you may not have mentioned the Bouet in any posts, but are we not all posting thoughts and comments on a Guernsey Press story, which is about a private security firm at………….the Bouet!
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As I said before, I agree with Beaufort’s comments having lived through such situations myself.
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Bring back the birch!
Flog em til they repent!
Sinners!
To the stocks with em!
Never did me any harm!
I blame the Fourth Reich!
For shame, for shame.
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I’m not too sure where Beaufort gets his information about ‘wishy-washy’ and the rest. Laws have got tighter, punishments harsher and bigoted and polarised media organisations have created a climate of fear.
A few drunk kids behaving like idiots is a symptom of the disrespect we show the less fortunate. Auntie GP highlights some of the pressures, and recent UK reports confirm that the economic proclivities of the elite are exacerbating social degradation.
Unfortunately for some who follow the rantings of unaccountable media moguls and treat them as gospel, thinking about things from start to finish is an unlearned skill.
I don’t think that people are suggesting that perps ‘get away with it’ or ‘treat them with kid gloves’ but rather more effort should be taken to understand the causes of this alienation that allows sociopathic tendencies, from the involved to the onlooker.
Society is guilty, turning inwards on ourselves is like hiding from the truth.
The fact is that Guernsey has never given a damn for people that struggle to fit in. In these days of ‘entitlement’ this manifests itself as resentment, whereas before they had an ignorant deference to ‘higher social classes’. Social awareness needs channeling. Who cares about improving Guernsey for the majority and not just for the ‘plc’?
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Beaufort
I am sure I recall you advocating the use of the birch, either on this site or maybe a different one. You say that we could take a leaf out of Singapore’s book. How exactly do you think they administer justice? How progressive a society do you think Singapore is?
The fact that Singapore is virtually crime-free may well be true, but the cost of that is corporal and capital punishment, together with limited freedom of speech, a restricted press etc.
You may consider that a price worth paying. I suggest that many more would not.
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My View.
Fair enough, I was trying to widen the issue as the Bouet doesn’t have a monopoly on this sort of behaviour it’s an Island wide issue.
Belinda
There is no such word as ‘castize’, but I fail to see why I should look to myself for other peoples misdemeanors. That is the problem in a nutshell, nobody will take responsibility for their or their own offspring but expect ’society’ to pick up the pieces. Well this part of society is fed up having to subsidise these low lifes. I suggest that if these people want to get out from the bottom of the pile they might try working for it the way the rest of us do. We all had an equal opportunity to avail ourselves of the excellent education system on this Island, jobs are plentiful,page and a half in the Press today. The ‘poverty’ card doesn’t wash with me. I fail to see how being poor equates with anti-social behaviour. You don’t see this sort of thing in third world countries where genuine poverty exists, not having the latest mobile phone,trainers or satellite TV doesn’t equate to being poor.
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Arnauld.
It was reported that the police themselves said they ‘couldn’t do anything’ in regard to the sunken garden. That is what is meant by ‘wishy washy’. If the police claim they can’t do anything how does that square with the rest of your opening paragraph?
How have punishments got tighter? Try comparing punishment now in 2009 to 1809, there is no comparison. I suggest you re read the thread from the top, this ‘understanding’ business has already been covered.
Phil.
So you can’t show where I’ve advocated bringing back the birch then? Or ‘like to whip/birch/kill other human beings, and who favour Guernsey becoming a repressive regime’ can you show me and everyone else where I said that? You still haven’t addressed the third point I made either.
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Cheesed Off
Firstly, I wasn’t saying that being relatively poor gives individuals a right to commit anti-social behaviour; but it does provide the context of such behaviour. More and more inequality leads to greater crime. If you allow the earnings of the so called top sections of society to rocket away from everyone else, that growing disparity will not help ease social problems, including crime and disorder.
Beaufort
You are assuming that we have equality of opportunity in Guernsey. We don’t. Look at the secondary education system if you have any doubts about that.
It should also be conceded I think that the biggest victims of crime in Guernsey are those from the lowest income groups. It is those who don’t vote and don’t come on internet boards like this to raise their views who suffer day in day out from low level anti-social behaviour and worse.
The other point is: if you are brought up as a child on an estate (and I’m not specifically thinking of the Bouet here) where crime is virtually accepted; where witnesses will rarely make themsleves known to Police; where alcohol abuse and drugs are rife; where domestic violence is almost viewed as natural; where children are rarely shown the love and warmth by their own family / parents that other families enjoy; how exactly does that child have the same start in life as the child of rich middle class parents? They don’t and it’s not their fault.
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Moleman
I repeat I was brought up on such an estate and under some of the circumstances you mention. However this did not stop my parents showing all of us love and warmth nor did it stop them teaching us right from wrong. We were, and still are, far from rich or middle class. Just hard working true Guerns.
The main problem here is that nowadays parents do not take responsibilty for their offsprings’ actions and yes they are getting away with far too much.
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Beaufourt
Kids have always broken into empty houses, especially if they’re boarded up or behind “do not cross” ribbon.
Charlie did say not to play with matches because kids play with matches.
Broken windows invite further breaking.
Was it criminal damage at the sunken gardens or was it a lack of respect?
Where does this respect come from?
The adults in society, all adults, are the example for the children to follow. If you have one set, usually close – neighbours or extended family – that are resenting their lives and have lost motivation, and the other set – media led commentators, mainly – saying how bad they are etc etc then what do you think the default position is for someone growing up around all that?
Do we know who’s causing the problems? It can only be the same bunch, surely. I imagine one of them is the guy I passed urinating all over the side of the GFSC or the other building next to Moore’s and giving lip to a lady that was asking him about his manners.
Of course it’s totally uncalled for, totally reprehensible and needs addressing. But it isn’t due to a lack of Law & Order, but rather a perversion of personal entitlement trumping responsibility.
Attention seeking and greed. That’s where we live.
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Moleman.
I’m not assuming anything of the sort, I typed ‘equal opportunity to avail ourselves of the excellent education system’ provided by the State. The opportunity is there, it is down to the individual whether he or she grasps it. There are activities available to every child on this Island undreamt of elsewhere. Where else would sailing be part of the curriculum for example?
Arnauld.
It was reported that plants were uprooted and trees snapped in the sunken garden, that is criminal damage surely?
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Beaufort
This is easily solved. Two questions for you; in what way could Guernsey take a leaf out of Singapore’s book? and do you or do you not agree with corporal and/or capital punishment?
As for living somewhere where I’d be afraid to step out of my own front door, about 12 years ago I stayed with a mate for about a year on one of the roughest council estates in South London (which has since been demolished, it was that bad). I currently live in the Bouet (although not in the States houses admittedly). At no point in my life have I felt scared to step out of my own front door, and to be honest I can’t ever imagine that being the case.
I hope that answers your question, perhaps you would now be so kind as to answer mine in a similarly forthright manner.
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Phil.
You have still not answered my three questions. You keep sidestepping them.
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PHIL,
what are you talking about?
It seems you get what you pay for.
So you think the security firm is the answer. I think it shows a clear sign of failure by the authorities and the courts to clear up this ongoing, unfolding and growing mess.
So a security guard pops down the Bouet and sees a group of several young people damaging some property or threatening a resident. What will they do, call the over paid police, who in turn will rush down there and then what. Find the young people have run away. So, if the young people start to run away before the police get there, what it the security guard going to do. Chase them? Grab them? I think not, that could be an assault Phil; that is unless, they make a citizens arrest! And that Phil may be a whole other ball game?
And what about the safety of the security guard. Are they trained to deal with violent people? Do they have the equipment to carry out the policing of this area? Probably not I would say.
Your attitude appears to indicate that we already have to pay too much to keep our streets clear of the few troublesome feral youths.
So we can pay them less and probably get less. We can go down the road of the UK and get cheaper policing (perhaps this is the first step).
Beware though! The example set by the UK has its pitfalls. Just look how it has deteriorated over there over the last few years. Pay less, you will get less. So unless you wish us to slide into the trap the UK has fallen into, don’t be to quick to suggest you want to drop the standards set locally.
The do gooders and PC brigade have brought the UK to its knees. Guernsey has a chance not to follow the UK, but my guess is it will?
So here’s one for you Phil, seeing as you think its all about the pay, and you do not like the feral youth culture, why don’t you join the Special Police Force in Guernsey. You could do your bit, for free as well, in the rain, in the night, at weekends or Bank holidays, go on Phil get in there!
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Just think
These 14 and 15 year olds will be having kids of their own in a couple of years !
What’s the next generation going to be like ?
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Beaufort
I believe that I have answered your questions, however you have not answered mine. You are the one that is trying to sidestep the issues, not me.
So, once again, how can we take a leaf out of Singapore’s book, and do you or do you not believe in corporal and/or capital punishment?
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Phil.
I suggest you read back up the thread, you haven’t answered my questions at all and have put words in my mouth.
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Beaufort
This is geting tedious – list them again and I’ll answer them, I’ve got nothing to hide.
Unlike yourself by the look of it………
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Lou
Quite some rant you had there considering that all I had said was that Maximum Security will be less costly than the police, in answer to a previous poster’s concerns over costs.
As for the chances of getting me in a Police Uniform, for various reasons there’s more chance of hell freezing over!!
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Phil.
I agree with you that it is getting tedious, trying to have a rational debate with someone who puts words in my mouth and ignores any valid question I put then goes off at a tangent is hardly worth the effort. Still, as requested as you can’t be bothered to read what I’ve previously typed or addressed here are the points again.
1.Show me where I’ve advocated bringing back the birch, as you’ve stated.
2.Also where have I said ‘like to whip/birch/kill other human beings, and who favour Guernsey becoming a repressive regime’ can you show me and everyone else where I’ve said that?
3. You never addressed the following either,
‘I don’t see how you can defend the indefensible, you would actually like to live somewhere where you were afraid to step out of your own house?’
Over to you.
Oh and another thing, congratulations to Parks and Gardens and the Environment Dept. on a job well done in the sunken garden, looks very good.
Now who would like to run a sweepstake on when the ’sunken gardens’ get smashed up again?
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Beaufort
1. If you are not the Beaufort that posts on another sight, advocating the effectiveness of the birch, then I apologise.
2. These are examples of what happens in Singapore (apart from the birching – see 1 above). You have said that Singapore is a “most pleasant place to live” and that Guernsey could do with “taking a leaf out of their book”. Please explain what you mean by that if you are not suggesting that we follow their line of criminal punishment, which is after all the thrust of this thread.
3. See my post yesterday at 4.13pm. Is that not clear enough?
Perhaps you could now see your way clear to answer my question on whether or not you agree with corporal and/or capital punishment?
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I am sorry I missed this topic as I have been away for 3 days.
Let me say this, we at Housing have a duty of care for the remaining tenants left at the Bouet and we will not shirk that responsibility, after discussion with me before I left on Monday I instructed the staff to get some extra security cover for this site over the Bonfire night period, this initiative was very successful and we decided to extend it until the end of the year. The costs of this security is very small when compared to carpenters having to constantly return to the site to re-board up properties that have been regularly broken into, with the real possibility of a fire being started or someone getting hurt in the buildings. These boarded up estates do unfortunately attract youngsters and it is often very difficult for the police to catch them in the act. We have since had contact from some of the remaining residents thanking the Housing department for making them feel more secure. The calls to the department have also dropped enabaling our staff to get on with other things more worthwhile. The police do have constant patrols in the area but they cannot be everywhere.
I too have my own ideas about how some of the worst offenders ought to be dealt with but I will keep my opinions to myself as I don’t want to offend anybody.
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Phil.
You still haven’t answered point 2. but gone off at a tangent, demonstrate where I’ve said that?
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I agree with most of the points put by Dave, however as I am a believer in CCTV and the power of actions vs cost, consider this:
Using security firms or the Police, most probably has a detection rate for catching those “in the act” of less than 10%, mainly due to patrols being to visible and infrequent. When compared to CCTV caching those “in the act” is far more probable, CCTV systems operate 24 x 7 and the detection rate is most probably higher than 90%.
I’m sure a good job is being done by all “including the yobs” but sometimes maybe we should look beyond the logical and use lateral thinking instead.
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Give it 2 years and your streets will be as unsafe as they are in England. You have to stop the yobs Now before it all gets out of hand. All this gently gently approach does not work. If you need proof of this, anyone of you can walk down an English housing estate road at night. Good Luck!
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Beaufort
I don’t know how many more times I have to answer your questions before you finally get around to answering mine, but her goes (again); you have said that Guernsey could do with taking a leaf out of Singapore’s (a most pleasant place to live, in your words) book. Singapore has restricted freedom of speech/press, the highest per capita rate of execution, corporal punishment etc. You cannot seriously expect anyone to believe that their crime rate has nothing to do with this repressive regime.
Kindly reveal your true colours and stop avoiding the questions that I have repeatedly asked you. In fairness, the answers are obvious, however you seem unwilling to provide them through embarrassment, shame, or some other reason.
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Mr Bee
If someone could invent a CCTV unit which could produce pictures which don’t look like they’ve been taken on a foggy night in a snowstorm then it may well be worth the investment
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Phil.
You have still failed to show me or anybody else where I’ve advocated the statement in point 2. You have still not answered my original question, when you have I’ll then go on to explain about Singapore. I will not have people put words in my mouth or try and twist what I’ve said. Something you seem to achieve with every post.
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Presence is often a deterrent. If the police can’t be present then it’s reasonable for the landlord to employ a private firm to protect their asset and provide some feeling of security for the remaining tenants.
As for Singapore there are significant cultural differences between Asia and the West. They are generally far more deferential to authority than us and their police are generally quasi paramilitiary and often armed.
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so the houses are having windows broken and other such things? these houses that are to be demolished anyway……
just put some signs up saying its private property and those who enter do so at their own risk. that way no lawsuits if anyone hurts themselves.
then let the kids/youths do what they want. if they want to burn the whole lot down, let them, its getting demolished anyway. if they hurt themselves in the process then so be it. lesson learned!
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Rob, in theory a smashing idea, but really, can a supposedly advanced, welfare state adopt such an attitude? It is disgraceful how many people use terms such as scum and pond life. I too grew up on a social housing estate, and I remember the stigma attached to us “scroungers” at school. Fortunatly for me I wanted more and had the parents (note parents not parent)to support me. A major factor here has to be the lack of good role models. Which is something that can effect every family no matter how affluent or poverty stricken. Children from broken homes as a general rule react to thier situation some self harm, some rebel against the parent (s) some abuse alcohol or drugs etc – this is not just limited to social housing. I am only summising, but I think that the people that damaged the sunken garden were more then likely from private housing sector rather then social. Why? Well why would they go and trash the sunken garden when they have their own “turf” to do with as they see fit. That is key here too, these youngsters creat “gangs” for want of a better word. Why do they creat something that they can belong too? So that they can feel wanted, and that they do belong to something, which demonstrates that they otherwise feel alienated by society. I put this to any of you that use terms like scum and feral, take a stroll down to any housing estate and talk to these people, engage with them. You will find that alot of them are bright and engaging charachters who would like nothing more then to drive round in Beamers and have a nice house, but they feel that it is impossible as people wont give them a chance. I challenge any white collar workers here to hand on heart say that if they were advertising for an office junior type role and sifting through the applicants you would NOT pre-judge ab applicant from for example, the Bouet. Of course you would – they are scum, feral, pond life. Then, once you have made that judgement they are already fighting an up hill battle, if they are fortunate enough to get to interview. And that my friends is where society fails. The white picket fence BMW brigade are happy to earn their big bucks, but if they had their way they would rid this island of any “feral” and live in a Wysteria Lane styled land of perfection. Well guess what, it doesnt work like that – you want to live in a welfare state, then you deal with the problem area’s too.
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Beaufort
You really do have a problem revealing your true colours don’t you?
For the umpteenth time, you have advocated Guernsey following Singapore, Singapore has corporal and capital punishment, together with a restricted press and limited freedom of speech. The implication is that you are therefore in favour of Guernsey adopting similar methods of punishment and repression. If this is incorrect please advise the way in which you think Guernsey can follow Singapore to improve our way of life.
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Phil.
You are doing it yet again. I haven’t said ‘Guernsey should follow Singapore’. I also want you to retract the allegation you aimed at me saying I advocated ‘ ‘like to whip/birch/kill other human beings, and who favour Guernsey becoming a repressive regime’, unless you can demonstrate where I’ve said that. It’s quite simple. You have made a giant leap, from me saying we should take a leaf out of Singapores book,(and I’m willing to expand on that after you retract these ridiculous statements) you’ve equated that to Guernsey having State sponsored murder. There is little point in trying to have a calm rational debate if people don’t read what the other side are saying, then put words in their mouth.
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Beaufort
In your post on November 11 at 10.15am you said, “I see Singapore has been mentioned and I agree it is one of the most pleasant places where the general populace can go about their business and the perceived threat of crime is virtually non existent perhaps we could take a leaf out of their book.”
The only previous post that mentioned Singapore was made by Brian Harper on the same day at 12.44am, this post specifically mentioned corporal punishment, “Bring back the birch and get rid of everything in that hotel-like prison of yours that contributes to the comfort of prisoners. Replace with the bare necessities of life and a regimen of strict discipline exerted with corporal punishment when necessary.
I guarantee you that Guernsey would soon be the safe happy place it used to be – just like Singapore.”
I think the conclusion that you therefore agree with Singapore’s policy of corporal punishment is an easy one to make. It would be naive to think that their policy of capital punishment, together with forced military service, restricted freedom of speech, and a restricted press (amongst other things) go a long way towards creating a society that is virtually crime free.
However, in the interest of actually hearing what you have to say, I am willing to retract my comment of you being in favour of Guernsey taking a leaf out of Singapore’s book regarding corporal and capital punishment, and also the bit about the repressive regime. Perhaps now you could expand on how we could learn from Singapore, without adopting any of the aforementioned methods of punishment and maintaining all of the freedoms that we currently enjoy.
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Right, Phil, Beaufort. The way I read it is as follows. Beaufort commented that Singapore had been mentioned and that they have a low crime rate and so we could perhaps take a leaf from there book. This in itself is not stating that he/she feels that corporal punishment etc is right. However I can see why phil has drawn this conclusion as it is fairly rational as Brian Harper when mentioning Singapore also mentions corporl punishment etc. Either way does it really matter? Lets face it, this is never going to happen. In this western civilisation it was outlawed and I think there is very little chance of it making a comeback, although as an aside if anyone watched the drama The Execution of Gary Glitter, you would of seen the statistic that 54% of the adult population would like to see the death penalty re-introduced, it is fair to assume of that 54% a large portion if not all would also like to see the birch back too! This is one time when the Human Rights Brigade are a good thing and they will stop anything like this happening. Violence is never the solution and will only breed more violence.
Lets get back to the actual thread here. Do the Boeuet Residents feel safer knowing that there are patrols? Yes. Did 2 potentially troublesome nights ie Haloween and Bonfire night pass off with little to no comotion? Yes. Has this represented value for money? We will never know as the details are unlikely to get published. But if the security patrols are acting as a deterrent then they are assisting the police whose role largely is to show up and the kids scarper and thats the end of the problem that night. Now it is the security patrol that show, the kids scarper and the police can get on with other matters that they can do something about.
The sooner that the placed is bulldozed the better and then the redelopment can be carried out and we can see if you really can build crime out of an area.
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Phil.
In view of your last post I suggest you engage with Brian Harper then, and stop putting words in my mouth.
Good post Auntie GP.
As an aside to my remarks, in the past I have had relatives who have lived in Singapore, and close family who have visited in the last couple of years, they have all stated they felt safer walking the streets of Singapore at night than the streets of St.Peter Port. Singapore since it gained independence in the 1960’s did in fact adopt British and Indian criminal/common law, and enjoys Westminster style government. I think that Singaporeans would admit that yes perhaps some liberties are missing in their present set up but that it is more preferable than being surrounded by crime and the subsequences of crime. There are still aspects that I would adopt or take a ‘leaf’ singular (for the benefit of Phil). I was reading an article (which I now can’t find) that described offenders convicted of low class crimes i.e littering, are fined from S$1000 and being made to wear orange jumpsuits and made to do community work. That would be a good starting point locally. This could be adopted here properly, by that I don’t mean planting trees or bulbs, that seems like an activities holiday to me. At the moment there is no real deterrent and the mind set needs changing.
I see in Saturdays Press I think it was, that some youngsters had been caught and some police spokesman said they will be dealt with severely. My immediate reaction to that was yes, no doubt they will be given a two month suspended sentence instead of one month pending social worker reports or similar.
I would really like to see the island be collectively proactive in dealing with this. Vandalism and anti-social behaviour is costing this Island hundreds of thousands of pounds in taxpayers money, as I’ve stated earlier people caught causing damage should be made to literally pay and put right any damage caused and make the parents responsible for their little darlings actions.
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Yes Beaufort, this is what you have been saying all along if only others had read properly!
These people/kids/parents surely must be held accountable for their actions and as such must pay. I too doubt that the four youngsters recently caught will receive fair punishment. Once again no lessons are learned and the behaviour continues…..
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Beaufort
The introduction of orange jumpsuits for community service, coupled with a modest increase in fines, is hardly likely to make too much of a difference in my opinion. If Guernsey’s crime rate is to be reduced to that of Singapore I would humbly suggest that corporal (and maybe even capital) punishment would have to be introduced. Some people would obviously be in favour of that happening. I wouldn’t.
I also think your point about Singapore adopting British law is a little misleading. Firstly, Britain obviously did away with capital (and corporal) punishment many years ago, and as far as I’m aware trial by jury is still a feature of British courts. That isn’t the case in Singapore however, where jury trials were abolished in 1969 and a SINGLE JUDGE can hear trials involving capital offences.
Personally I would prefer to live in a community with a slightly higher crime rate (but with freedom of speech and a free press) than a society that has neither freedom of speech nor a free press, and where corporal and capital punishment are still frequently used.
I guess that’s where we differ.
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Just as an observation, whilst posting in this thread I’ve come across some quite interesting things about Singapore. I personally can’t make up my mind about corporal punishment and it depends on which side of the divide as to whether it works or not.I’m still firmly sat on the fence.
I had another idea which might work locally and would need the co-operation of the Press and some political leadership.It would be worth a try in my opinion and how about once a week the names and good quality photographs are published showing who these individuals are once convicted of vandalism and other crimes which are costing us all dear. A short piece explainiing what they did and how much their particular crime has cost us, then compare what the island could have spent that money on for the general benefit of all but this has now been wasted instead on putting right what the individual had smashed up or damaged. I would then encourage local business to refuse to have these people on their premises, if it was done collectively they would be made into social pariahs and it would take all of their time getting members of their own families to feed,clothe and generally look after them. This might make people stop and think of the consequences of their selfish actions and might be a way forward to making Guernsey safer and instilling a sense of pride in the place and at the same time extend some consideration to the other people who live on it.
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What a fantastic idea – completely isolate petty criminals from society.
That’ll make them want to take some responsibility for their actions and become a contributing member of society.
Errrrr, won’t it?
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What is quite interesting in this debate about how to punish, is that no one has mentioned the fact that just a short time ago, the GP reportd on how the Community Service scheme was under threat due to funding. I think that an increase in fines, to make them truely hard hitting needs to be introduced, remove the option to do the time in prison (which then means we lose money from the fine not being paid, and they are costing the tax payer for their time incareated). Proceeds from the fine’s should be diverted into the community service scheme, to ensure it continues to run. And why not make these offenders wear something like an orange jump suit that clearly indicates that they are doing what they are doing as a form of punishment, let the embarassment factor take an effect too. The service that one faces can first be to rectify the misdemeanour that they were convicted for where appropriate ie cleaning up the vandalism etc then they can carry out charitable odd jobs like painting the cheshire homes etc. They could also be put to work as manual labour on states projects – how much money could it of saved if the builders of the new schools etc could of used some free labour?
Just a thought.
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Phil.
Instead of being sarcastic, how about you suggest something? More Hotel Les Nicolles I suppose, and liberal wishy washy touchy feely we must try and understand them claptrap which has got us where we are now.
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Ray
The system both you and Mr Bee maybe refering to, is avialble now.
I quote “If someone could invent a CCTV unit which could produce pictures which don’t look like they’ve been taken on a foggy night in a snowstorm then it may well be worth the investment”
Just go to http://www.cctvwatch.co.uk and click CCTV comparisons.
Say no more.
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Congratulations to you all. A glorious waste of time and invective, arguing semantics over who exactly said what to whom.
Any of you actually going to get off your backsides and try and DO anything? Any of you give up your time to actually go and help anybody else? If you are one of those trying to make a difference, then thank you. If you’re not, then please stop this ridiculous armchair posturing and go out and find out for YOURSELF what is and isn’t being done.
Don’t rely on a petty, sensationalist local paper which is more concerned with printing its own opinions than in printing anything which actually matters.
Have a nice day.
:o)
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