Bailiff Sir Geoffrey Rowland, left, and Chief Minister Lyndon Trott.
GUERNSEY’S Bailiff has rejected claims that he instigated the Policy Council row over Remembrance Sunday.
As the fallout about a challenge to the order in which wreaths were laid escalated substantially yesterday, Sir Geoffrey Rowland denied that discussions were based on a letter he had sent the council.
Chief Minister Lyndon Trott earlier said that the issue was put on the Policy Council’s agenda at the request of the Bailiff, who sent a note 72 hours before the service laying out the traditional order. Deputy Trott said the matter would not have been discussed otherwise.
But the Bailiff’s Chambers released a statement yesterday saying that the Bailiff wrote the letter because he had been told that Deputy Trott planned to discuss the wreath-laying issues with the Policy Council.
‘The Bailiff’s Chambers was advised at staff level by the Policy Council that the chief minister intended to raise the matter of wreath laying with the Policy Council at a meeting it was to hold in the week prior to Remembrance Day,’ a spokeswoman said.
‘The Bailiff was advised accordingly. Therefore, the Bailiff’s Chambers assembled the facts about wreath laying to assist any discussion that may be held.
‘The subsequent note sent to the Policy Council set out the traditional order of wreath laying, the order of wreath laying since 2004 and when chief ministers or senior acting presiding officers had laid the wreath for the States of Guernsey.
‘It was intended to be a purely neutral and factual note and was viewed here as such, both before it was sent and now.’
But Deputy Trott was puzzled by the Bailiff’s remarks. ‘This is very odd. The note from the Bailiff sought the Policy Council’s early views and I adhered to that request. It now appears it would have been better to have simply ignored the approach at that time.
‘Our records show that I raised the issue in late January this year. There appears therefore to be some confusion over dates.’
Several deputies expressed outrage that the Policy Council thought it appropriate to discuss the order in which wreaths were laid.
However, Deputy Trott was amazed by the backlash from his fellow States members.
Speaking before the release of the Bailiff’s statement yesterday, he said: ‘What I have found so surprising about this issue is that some States members believe that I, as chairman of the Policy Council, should have refused for this matter to be debated because of the lateness of the Bailiff’s request,’ he said. ‘I can certainly understand why members would express surprise at the timing of the Bailiff’s letter, but I think it would have been wholly unreasonable for the Policy Council to refuse his request.’
Article posted on 17th November, 2009 - 2.30pm
82 Article Comments
The words “Laughing Stock ” come to mind.
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Its good to see these people looking after the interests of our Island and not wasting time and taxpayers money on silly arguments… I’m sure that the Islanders who have given their lives would be proud to see this farce unwind.
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Muzeek
To my mind comes one also
DISGUSTING
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I have included a link to the sock and awe game.
Any web developers out there willing to build a similar game with the CM in the states chambers?
This would be the ideal platform for the veterans and the surviving family members to vent their anger and frustrations.
It would also be good for the majority of the taxpayers to see what score they could achieve for the ever increasing catalogue of mistakes he continues to make.
http://www.sockandawe.com/
Shoe the CM
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Reading these articles, it would appear we are left to conclude that we either have:
- a Chief Minister who is lying;
- a Bailiff who is lying;
- a situation where communication between the States and Crown Officers is so poor that neither understands the other’s correspondence
- a situation where they have become so tied up in their own spin they don’t know what the facts are anymore
- there is more to this than the public is presently aware.
Proposed Solution: Release all documents pertaining to this issue into the public domain without delay and put an end to this fiasco.
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Why on earth is the Press making such a meal of a NON-EVENT? What is the Editor’s hidden agenda? Is it simply more Trott bashing or is there something else?
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I think right now that the Press are equally as guilty of distracting attention away from the true significance of Rememberance Sunday/Day. I don’t give a flying monkey’s about the petty backbiting going on behind the scenes- bring it back to the real issue here.
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Pathetic.
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Paul Le Page
It would be highly unlikely that the bailiff is ‘mistaken’ and also highly unlikely that the bailiff wouldn’t understand coherant correspondance.
However it wouldn’t necessarily follow that Trott is ‘mistaken’ either. Equaly it could be that another in the policy council is trying to discredit Trott.
According to Matt Fallaize this matter occupied the minds of certain members of our senior committee this time last year.
Matt Fallaizes’ disclosure is at odds with Trott saying that the issue was put on the Policy Council’s agenda at the request of the Bailiff, saying the matter would not have been discussed otherwise.
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Deputy Trott made it clear last year when he stated that visiting VIP’s should be directed first to ‘Frossard House’ that he sees his office as the highest in the land. He is more in love with his own image than he is with the welfare of this island.
He is not the right person to lead the States in these turbulent times, as he constantly shows by picking fights with all and sundry. Please, please can we not recognise the common denominator in most of our problems and get rid of him now.
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Looks like a worrying case of megalomania.
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Paul Le Page Nov. 17
I agree with you, someone is not telling the truth.
We need to have some trust, in those people who govern us.
It might be better for Ex. Deputies Laurie Morgan,Mike Torode and Dan Le Cheminant to have a look and give their opinion.
These were states members, who most people had respect for.
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Steven – it would be remiss of me to state that the “options” I posted are the only possibilities: your suggestion that someone in the Policy Council is trying to discredit the CM is also viable.
It all points to the inevitable conclusion that to end this sorry affair requires public disclosure of all relevant documentation.
Nobody in their right mind demands perfection in our public officials (everyone is allowed to make a mistake or a few faux pas) however I think we do have the right to insist on integrity.
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Ridiculous. The Island is not interested in another pi**ing contest between Mr Trott and others, but just wish that they would get on with serving their community as they should be. Hopefully we can look forward to some sort of tribunal to sort look into the situation and waste some more money, there appears to be plenty of it for these sort of things!
Frosty- well said! As ever bickering overshadows the most important factor.
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Hear hear Paul.
NOW!
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Absolutely disgusting behaviour by Trottsky.
Just lay the effing wreaths and be glad you are not doing so at your son’s or daughter’s graves.
Mr Trott should stop believing his own press; he is a very small fish in a very big ocean. Get over it.
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I thought I was back in the kindergarten, all those people who gave their lives to keep us free and the “trotabout” is bickering with the Bailiff as to who lays the wreath first, in memory of those brave people – honestly get a life and sort out the problems in our island instead of wasting time!
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Frosty & Cher Eugene
Its called freedom of speech and journalism. In my opinion it has prompted a reaction and is at the heart of the matter showing how arrogant and egotistical some leaders of this island are.
Shame on them.
Shoe the CM!
hehe
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Just who made this topic available/reported to public media?
They are the guilty party!
I am all for freedom of information utoh! a clash with privacy here – bet the guilty party never owns up. But thanks (cough cough) adding to the credibility of our wonderful States system. Stop being Micky Mouse and get on with Real Important Issues – The End
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Children, children. Lest we forget.
It strikes me that we have a nasty recurrence of the old Sark swine flu, (circa 10 December 2008).
One suggested antidote is a family-sized packet of Paxo to be applied liberally by the Guernsey taxpayer.
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Why is this complicated?
At the Cenotaph the queen lays her wreath before the politicians….so if Deputy Trott was PM, he’d want to lay his wreath before the queen?
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I must agree with Paul, Mr. Trott has lost his grip on reality and for the good of the island he should go. Only trouble with that is what do you replace him with.
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Both need to go
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Paul,
Deputy Trott is the elected captain of the Guernsey Government team. The Bailiff is the referee and head of the legal authorities of the Island. It is appropriate for some VIP’s to meet Deputy Trott first, others the Baliff. Where is the problem?
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What I find strange is that Carol Steere,Mark Dorey,Charles Parkinson,Geoff Mahy and Carla McNutty were not present at this Policy Council meeting.
Aren’t they paid quite handsomely to attend Policy Council meetings ?
Haven’t they just hoodwinked all the ‘minor’ States members into giving them more power to wield via these meetings?
Time for Mary Lowe to demand another 250K enquiry
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The Bailiff, however worthy, does not represent me; the Lieutenant Governor, however illustrious, does not represent me. I am represented by the holder of the office of Chief Minister in the States of Deliberation. However much it pains me that the holder of that office is a man for whom I have little respect, his office as senior elected deputy of the people should take precedence over any non elected person.
It is, of course, distressing that this spat should have taken place at a particularly emotive time for all of us. It’s a pity the protagonists could not have sorted this out in private at a less significant moment and, further, I don’t feel that the Press have gained much credit by giving it so much prominence .
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Although I agree that this has been blown a little out of proportion, I think you have to look at the history of confrontations relating to the Chief Minister. I know who i would rather trust if i had to choose between a Manipulative politician with a past history and paid spin doctors and our Bailiff who has no axe to grind. There is no contest.
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My understanding is that wreaths are laid in order of Milatary Rank. The Queen always lays the first wreath.
Therefore NO ONE should have needed to ask anyone in what order they were to be laid. The Bailiff would lay their wreath first.
This whole debate is so sad. Where was the respect in the event that was being attended.
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This is a shameful episode for all involved, not least the Guernsey Press. Is it really in the public interest to devote the Front page, second page and opinion column to this ‘he said/she said’ nonsense. It seems odd to want to ‘respect Guernsey’s war dead’ and ‘bring this matter to a close’ by simultaneously whipping up the frenzy. Disappointing.
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Remembrance Day is about the brave people that fought for the rights and freedoms we enjoy, its not about two kids who are fighting over “he said it first …”. I can’t believe either of these two grown men participated in something so childish!!!
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I’m surprised that this hasn’t been labelled ‘wreathgate’ yet…
Mountains, molehills and sensationalism spring to mind.
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Adey,
These are exactly the kind of things the GP should be bringing to the public’s attention. I for one wish to be made aware of the idiotic, arrogant and disrespectful goings on of those that ‘lead’ us. Mr Trott with his ‘massive’ parish vote has some how managed to become one of the most powerful people in Guernsey. Taking into account his appalling behaviour since the start of his tenure (Barry Brehaut, backing Flouquet etc etc) and the huge change in his role as CM, it is not an unreasonable request to demand that the Policy Council should all step down and stand for re-election. Just what sort of ‘democracy’ do we live under and just what sort of people are in charge? This story gives us an insight into the latter and clearly highlights the need for the former to be addressed.
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While we are still a Crown Dependency, it seems to me that the order of precedence is determined by that fact.
In these times it may be debatable as it becomes increasingly clear that the Crown means the UK government of the day. However, I don’t think it appropriate that the order of precedence be changed by surreptitious notes and discussions.
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I say we spend £250,000 and see if we can get to the bottom of this.
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Strangely really, when reading history how some words from a hated tyrant could mean a lot to Guernsey People-
Those words were
“Who will rid me of this troublesome person#
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I agree with Bryn’s comments. It is in the public interest to be informed of the shoddy and pathethic behaviour displayed by some with monstrous egos.
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What’s important here is integrity. I suspect the civil servants have been playing again. It’s about time they were told that they are employed not elected members. It’s about time the deputies realised that their political future is in the hands of the civil servants. They make the decisions and everybody knows it.
Trott force the issue and clear your name. If you are as honest as you say, you will do this. You have started something now prove what happened.
The Bailiff would have had nothing to do with this. He is above all this rubbish, and you know this.
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Get rid of them both.
The Bailiff is being paid a high court judge’s salary (~£170,000) seldom hears a case and Trott walks in his own ego’s shadow.
That he should question the accepted order of laying them shows that Mr. Trott cannot be ‘fit for purpose’ because that same ego over-rides his rationality.
I understood that wreathes were laid as a mark of respect for our fallen, not as a political gimmick.
Why do we suffer this?
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Is this why they call it rememberance ? for all the wrong reasons lets just bang there heads together and tell them to sit in the corner and they still want to run our island?
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Bryn asks what sort of democracy do we live under?
Well clearly one that allows free speech, one where the majority of your elected assembly
Voted to forgive Dep Flouquet, a democracy where the elected members often disagree which is healthy in any democracy. I am not sure why the policy council should step down?
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Thats priceless from Dave Jones, what is democracy and free speech, its something politicians believe in until the Press print something these democraticaly elected representatives dont like to hear. Then all the toys go out the window.
As has happened in the not to distant past. Some people have got very short memories.
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Mr Jones,
The fact that you you see no reason why the policy council should step down in light of recent events just shows that you have not a clue or just do not care a jot about democracy. As for ‘forgiving’ Mr Flouquet, it was your duty to remove him, but you have not a clue or care a jot about that either. The Bailliff’s comments seem at odds to yours posted on another thread. Care to coment on that?
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Agreed Mark:
they’re like kippers; 2 faced and no guts.
each one protects the other as Dave Jones has just done
It’s game they play sitting on the fence; well even Humpty Dumpty eventually fell. and when this lot falls: Guernsey people will have to do the clearing up; as we did in 1945.
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Deputy Jones asks why the policy council should step down, because in its current guise it has lost the confidence of the people to take Guernsey forward. It stumbles from one farce to another while Rome burns. Surely even Deputy Jones sees that Trott and Flouquet particularly are seen as damaged goods as they continue to create problems where ever they go. The Policy council continue to be tarnished by there inclusion and the Guernsey people have had enough, every positive won’t be seen as such because of the distrust the people now have. What do the Policy council members have to fear if they are confident that they are doing a good job. With all the huge problems that Guernsey faces please lets ensure the Policy council has the trust of the people before we go any further.
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Jones is all wrong.
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Mark
I defend rigorously my department and our political system when I believe the press have got it wrong, that is my right in a democracy. The press are free to print whatever they like and we all have the freedom to disagree and to respond. I will say that the press have been fair to me in that regard. But of course in your world it would be just one way traffic with the press free to say whatever it pleases but with those who disagree being accused of throwing toys out of the pram when they put up a robust defence. Brilliant.
Bryn
You seem to think that the PC should step down in light of recent events, what would that be then? a so called public disagreement between the Chief Minister and the Bailiff if that’s what it is?
Good grief what on earth would happen if it was something really serious. This storm in a tea cup is exactly that, the States and the PC deal daily with far more exciting things than this everyday,
The press have little or no news daily, so you should not be surprised that every little morsel of gossip is scooped up and picked clean. I don’t blame them and it is for their readership to decide what they believe. For your information I spoke to the Bailiff on Wednesday night at a book launch I attended and I can tell you he is lot less excited about all this than you seem to be. As For Dep Flouquet the democratic process of the States of deliberation found that it did not agree with you and I don’t need to be told what my duty is, I cast my vote like everyone else on the day and the States decided enough was enough and we moved on.
Paul
Where is your evidence that the PC has lost the confidence of the people, if events of this last year is anything to go by that is not true? The PC collectively has been praised by many members of the public for its handling of the Fuel ships crisis, no panic just a measured well thought out plan to resolve. Its External Relations arm has also been praised by many sections of the community for the huge improvements in relations with several countries and as recently as this week the EU, due to the incredible job done by the Chief Minister and his team. The PC was also credited for ending a very damaging closure of the airport, ending the misery of hundreds of passengers. The PC has also recently been praised by the business community for taking forward the Strategic Government Business plan. It has also received praise for its handling of the recent attacks on our tax strategy; there has been no panic just a measured response looking at all our options. Paul I am not sure which bit of Rome is burning? We have at last seen unemployment falling, for the third month in a row, we have seen our pension fund recover to almost the same levels before the market crashed, we have seen both our fuel ships now on permanent charters now that the global economy has picked up. Our economy remains as buoyant as ever, this latest budget will see increased funding for Health and Education which will improve already first class services. We have had another successful year with the corporate housing programme delivering more modern well constructed housing. Paul I could not improve what Horace posted on this site a little time ago.
If Mr Brown woke up this morning and was told the national debt was at zero, unemployment was almost nil, state pensions were fully funded, there was a rainy day fund, he wasn’t at war with anyone and educational and health facilities were more than adequate then I believe he would be a happy man. For Mr Brown it is a dream for Mr Trott it is real. We achieved our success by consensus they made their mess by executive government. Enough said!
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Deputy Jones – well said on the post of 4.13.
Some might say that we are lucky to have this forum, but it does allow one to be on their own soap box, and perhaps the views of some posters are not as the Island as a whole sees anything in politics……
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Deputy Jones, keep patting yourself on the back and ignore what goes on around you, I for one find it distasteful how you defend racists and bullies. Your posts show how worried we should all be about the current Policy Council.
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My view
I believe that is true, most of the people who contact me recognise what a difficult job Deputies have and a large number of them tell me they wouldn’t want to do the job themselves if it was the last job going in the Island. Of course they moan on occasions about different things and I am not surprised as we don’t live in utopia and when we do really dumb things like vote for a waste plant that is to expensive and is old dinosaur technology they understandably get very upset. I am not saying we always get things right but when you consider the huge number of issues the States have to deal with and the often complex issues deputies have to grapple with everyday then I am not surprised that sometimes we get it wrong. Forums like this give everyone the chance to air their views and that can only be healthy in any democracy, I don’t mind being beaten up by some of our detractors, you would not stand for public office if that is likely to phase you and there will always be armchair pundits who know how to do and run things much better than everyone else, although I have to say you don’t often see them at election time in the glaring lights of some hall or other up on the platform putting their ideas before the public, offering themselves for election. I think what does grate a little is that the most vicious of our critics do not even possess the courage to let us know who they are, preferring to make many of their more outrageous accusations while hiding behind anonymity.
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interesting reading everyones posts, dave jones
i think the elephant in the room might be that a good many people, a majority or otherwise i do not know, do not trust deputies trott and flouquet.it is a common theme on many of these threads.it is what i thinkof them, and others i speak to. so in a row like this wreath affair more people will lean to the bailiff’s side as he comes across as a decent, mild mannered guy. being seen as a decent person is held in high regard but many people. you for instance, i may not agree with what you say always but you are clear about what you do say.
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Paul
I am one member of the Policy Council who supports what it does, now you may not like what I post because it disagrees with your point of view but the evidence shows you are wrong. Dep Trott has been commended on many occasions for his role as Chief Minister, he has like all of us made mistakes along the way, he himself accepts that, however I don’t believe he deserves the constant sniping and ridicule he gets from those who clear could not do his job. Secondly Dep Flouquet is not and never has been a racist or a bully, there you go again completely over the top, and the states accepted that fact and voted accordingly. Now apparently I am a racist for supporting that decision and that presumption makes me angry so here goes, what I find particularly nauseating when I read posts like yours is the self righteous, sanctimonious, indignant; pious out pouring’s of people like you who believe they have acquired the right to be the moral guardians of the rest of us.
I suggest you put your own weaknesses right and get on with your own perfect life and stop trying to drag everyone else to the moral high ground that you seem so desperate to occupy.
I would also like to know why those who are still calling for Deputy Flouquet’s head, even after the States agreed to his punishment in a democratic vote, the politically correct contingent, believe that their opinion is any more valid than anyone else’s. People like you who tell me I had a duty to vote him out of his job, you will tell me of course that the world has moved on and we must all now be purged and sanitised of our human individuality by new social attitudes and the thinking of people like you who wish to force upon the rest of us the ever pervading political correctness that is sending our communities to hell in a hand cart. It doesn’t matter how hard anyone works or what other qualities they might have, PC must rule the day. He told a stupid joke for goodness sake, he didn’t murder anyone or commit any other heinous act that would have seen him ostracised by the island community. Too many people in my view have allowed themselves to be submissively herded into a cul de sac by this self styled, self-righteous woolly headed elite who want to inflict their vision of the world on all those gullible enough to swallow it, well I for one refuse to be corralled or abide by an unwritten code that turns me into some politically correct clone along with of the rest of them. I refuse to be told that if I don’t think and speak in a certain way then I am a racist or an extremist, and that to be politically correct is the only ethos that will any longer be tolerated. According to you anyone who has the temerity to disagree with those who have given up there right to be different in thinking or outlook are accused of being blinded by prejudice against other cultures or decent people. You and your ilk have labelled them as trouble-making bigots, which makes them enemies of the community, if not humanity, and deserving persecution.
I will tell you who the bigots are, they are the ones that have turned PC into a religion backed up by their constant whinging about what is correct and what isn’t. smug, superior beings who have lost any sense of proportion which is often the case when a religion reaches cult status which is what has happened with PC and its followers. I will tell you what it really is, It is an attack upon truth, clear thinking and plain speaking, by pointing out the odious nature of PC is a duty for all of us who are still capable of individual thought and to ram home the importance of plain speaking, freedom of choice and freedom of speech which are any community’s safe-guards against this creeping tyranny from people like you. And finaly It seems that I am not alone in thinking that our freedom of expression is under severe threat, if the liberal elite get their way. I have another quote for you.
“I believe in free speech, whether politically correct or politically incorrect” you might be surprised to learn that, that comment was made by Barack Abama in this book written by him called the Audacity of Hope, so even the man we are told by some has been deeply offended by this silly joke clearly believes in Deputy Flouquet’s right to tell it. I am glad I have got that off my chest once again time for a glass of red I think.
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Yes I know I spelt Obama wrongly I apologise to the president
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just an observation but dave jones says he has made mistakes along the way as a member of the policy council. in all his many long and eloquent posts I havw never seen him admit to making a mistake in any area of his political career. I wish i was that perfect. Care to share any of your mistakes with us voters Dave?
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Wow! Preacher Jones has spoken and we all bow to his superior wisdom…………..yeah right. The really scary thing is that you actually believe the people are behind you and your decisions. Please remind us of your own educational and business experience which puts you in such a position to preach to the rest of us.
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Despite Dave Jones’s preaching the simple facts are, do I, my family, friends and colleagues think the current Policy council are doing a good job..NO. Do we think Deputy Trott is the right man for Chief Minister NO. Do we think Bernard Flouquet should be representing us to the outside world NO. Are the majority of the Policy Council suitably qualified to make decisions on the future of Guernsey PLC absolutely not! I could go on but suffice to say Deputy Jones I firmly believe that the majority of islanders would agree with me but obviously it is not in your interest to believe that…. and that is the really scary thing for normal islanders to see. What damage will be done before we have a chance to change things?
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Kevin
I have never said I was perfect far from it, I have the same human weaknesses as all of us, I do my best in a very stressful and highly charged environment, doing the job I have been given by my peers to the best of my ability, in the interests of the people of Guernsey, a job which has little reward given that some of the public ridicule us for it and want us to do the job and take all the flack for nothing. I suppose you could say the biggest mistake I made was standing for public office in the first place, that mistake was then compounded by taking on the housing portfolio one of the most difficult posts in the States. As for the job I suppose one of my faults is that I do loose patience very quickly when the initiatives I have had a hand in creating don’t move quickly enough, sometimes that is reflected in sharp comments I make to other Ministers or Civil servants but as I said I am not perfect. As for other mistakes it is difficult to think of individual incidents, suffice to say that I have done nothing in my short political career I am ashamed of.
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Dave Jones
Very well put indeed. I don’t think many would get very far if everything they said was scrutinised by their critics in the desperate hope that something could be found to make a meal of.
You deserve a hell of a lot of respect and credit for being open enough to come here and provide explanations. Very few deputies are willing to get this close and personal and place themselves potentially in the cross hares of their biggest critics who thrive on their missions seeking the perfect sniper shot.
Kevin
You don’t honestly expect to be handed mud on a silver platter just to sling back do you?
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It was interesting reading all your self righteous, sanctimonious, indignant and pious out pourings. It is also good to know that, we have a moral guardian standing on the high ground, looking down on us.
Deputy Flouquet may have been kept in office by a democratic states vote, but would the people have voted for him.
At the end of the day we are the taxpayers and have the right to say that, we believe you were wrong.
Who can have respect in the judgment, of a man who tells a joke like that, in front of the media.
What ever he does now, will always be tainted by this and if you think, that people will for get. No is the answer.
As for the tankers which cost 17.5 million Dave, one was in dry dock with crew, has now been chartered out for three months.
The other tanker l believe only delivers fuel to us, and then moors in the little Russel, with crew awaiting its next order from us.
How much is the holding company getting from us,how much are we receiving for the chartered one and how much does our fuel tanker cost for a year to run?
This is just another one of the incompetent decisions that, has brought this Island to its knees. All the overspending on these projects are now costing a fortune in on going maintenance bills.
On the subject of our CM and his trips around the world, awaste of tax payers money.
As for China, they only want one thing from us, and that is to learn all about our finance regulations and how we have run it, for the last 40 years. Remember your history, the tomatoes and the Dutch.
In return they will show us how to grow rice, in our ‘mariais,s’.
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paul
all I expected was an honest answer what’s wrong with that.
also Dave jones and the other states members are not the only people who do difficult,stressful, thankless jobs plenty of people out there do. i also support the payment of deputies. so no deputy Jones I don’t want you to do the job for nothing my point is that in all your posts you appear to believe all of your political decisions are correct everyone makes mistakes sometimes even states deputies.there is nothing weak about admitting an occasional mistake indeed politicians would ,in my view, gain respect from voters who are clearly not satisfied with the way things are being run if errors were admitted rather than paying consultants with tax payers money to point out errors made by the states.Hows this for starters, the states voted for deputy Trott to be chief minister might i humbly suggest that this was a mistake.
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Paul
I am not preaching to anybody, I think your post deserved an answer and that was it. I am also not stupid enough to believe that everyone agrees with me clearly that would be foolish. As for my education, well it was pretty basic really, junior school and then an Essex secondary modern I didn’t really learn very much as I had a pretty wretched childhood which made it difficult to concentrate without the benefit of family or parents which are the things you really need when starting out in life and which help mould us into what we are. I was sent to an agricultural college in East Grinstead in the late 60’s for a short while, but I was expelled for fighting, not unusual for schoolboys in those days as they were much less tolerant of bad behaviour than they are now. In any event I didn’t really fit in with the wealthy farmers sons and as a scruffy little orphan they were not slow to let me know it.
I was out on the streets at 16 and had to make my own way in life, it was a very lonely existence I can tell you, I am self taught in almost everything else. I have a steely determination when I pursue something I think is worthwhile, I don’t ask anything from anyone nor do I want pity or understanding I am just me, a bloke who used to drive diggers who offered himself for election with some clear goals in mind and the determination to see them though. I was born with one great asset and that is a complete absence of fear, I will take on any battle or any argument in any arena regardless of the odds stacked against me, that is coupled with the scary ability to speak to large audiences without any fear or nerves I don’t know where it comes from but clearly it is a help in my political life. Paul when the public have had enough of me they will throw me out of office and I will get my normal life back and I have absolutely no elusions about any of it at all. What else? Well I spent nearly all of my working life in the heavy plant industry. I suppose I know pretty much the same things about life as most people and like most people I do the very best I can.
I didn’t go into politics for over 30 years (I have lived in Guernsey for 41 years) because I believe you need to live somewhere for a long time before you have any real understanding of its sense of place its people, its history and its culture, you have to live amongst it and get a real passion for it if you are ever to have a hope of representing anyone.
As for your other post the PC don’t make any real decisions that is done by the States of Deliberation as a whole, the people you presumably voted for. I am interested to know from you what damage you think myself and my colleagues have done? We have done a difficult job through a difficult period in our history very well in my view, you and your family may not think so but I don’t get the phone calls or e-mails or people in the street telling me that we are all useless and should go. They have worries and concerns for the future of coarse they do but they also understand how difficult some of the challenges we face and have overcome are. It is clear from your posts that this has more to do with individual personalities than anything else, which is a shame.
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Eduet
Of course you have a right to say that you believe we are wrong and that equally applies to you and by the way I know that Dep Flouquet also had a lot of support, it is true that most people thought he was foolish to tell such a joke but not everyone was looking for his head on a pike. As for his judgment it would be difficult to argue that it let him down on that occasion but it was one tiny incident in his life that was blown out of all proportion by a hysterical media and the PC brigade marching to their banner of self righteous indignation. Your point on the Tankers I believe is wrong and we had an update just recently from our Treasury Minister who told us that both were working as we had first planned and the bare boat charter for the Sarnia Liberty is working very well. It also delivers to Jersey I am told. How you can say the decision to buy these ships was incompetent I am at a loss to understand, what would have been grossly incompetent, would to have let the island run out of fuel with all the horrendous consequences that would have had on our community. The tankers were bought in order to protect our vital fuel supplies as the world is now, we have to be far more proactive and protect ourselves by controlling our own future not being reliant on the un-predictable changes in fortune of the shipping industry. I was unaware that the island has been brought to its knees and that is certainly not the view of our Treasury minister who with respect I would suggest knows a little more about it than you. Which overspends are costing a fortune in maintenance? we have not had an overspend since the policy council was formed. The CM ‘s External Relation visits are vital to keeping Guernsey’s finance business as diverse as possible, we cannot sit on our laurels as the world moves on, we have to be proactive and find new business where ever we can. Those in this island who provide nearly 70% of its income disagree with you and are thankful that we have a CM who is prepared to give up a lot of his time for the benefit of this island.
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Dave Jones
You constantly preach. Get real.
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And as for Trott.
That page in the Press was blatant misinformation and unremitting tripe.
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Dave. You have not given me the cost of running the tankers, and we can not continue to spend money recklessly.
Is the tanker delivering to Jersey, is that an emphatic yes or a may be.
High maintenance on overspends, that we can not investigate because of legal matters.
This is very convenient, to stop us finding out how badly our money was incompetently used and abused.
Lets look at La Rondin School, teams from R.g. Falla, Island electrics and Rihoys are a few who have been called in to try to keep a sub standard building open.
The Airport, where the roof still leaks in several places and only the other day the area where you wait in arrivals had to be fixed when water poured in. The air conditioning has still not been done and when windows are opened in summer, you have to seal them again each time you close them.
The floor area in security, has got large cracks in it and the arrival and departure doors have to be left open in summer, so as to leave it cooler. The front pillars of the Airport are pitting with rust and the cleaning firm has to wax it regularly.
We have in my opinion, been brought to our knees, by all this incompetent overspending.
Did you not read Tribal Helm or the Wales reports, do you not look at our finances.
Have we got more overspends coming in the new Clinical Block and is the roof space where all the equipment kept, high enough for future access for mentanence?
Has the repairs on the States Social Security roof, been done properly or will it have to done again, because of leaks?
I will be watching this space for updates.
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Deputy Jones,
Well done for writing on this forum and defending your corner.
A friendly question – when you write:
“PC must rule the day”
“The bigots are…the ones that have turned PC into a religion backed up by their constant whinging”
“The PC brigade march[ing] to their banner of self righteous indignation”
Are you referring to the Policy Council?
If so, I see little disagreement.
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Dave Jones states, “The CM ‘s External Relation visits are vital to keeping Guernsey’s finance business as diverse as possible, we cannot sit on our laurels as the world moves on, we have to be proactive and find new business where ever we can.” But where is the proof of this? I would like to know why it is that the CM’s visits are so “vital”?
The Guernsey Finance industry has more than sufficient resources to paddle its own canoes in Chinese waters and the GFSC, if it wants to try to teach China how to regulate itself can waste the licence fees it receives from the finance industry if it likes.
What I remain to be convinced about is the need for politicians to travel to assist the finance industry out of the tax payers pocket.
It’s interesting to note that the online version of The Royal Gazette in Bermuda announced just last week that XL Capital “has won approval from regulators to establish a property and casualty subsidiary in China.
In line with China Insurance Regulatory Commission’s licence approval process and under the leadership of Andrew Vigar, regional manager Asia for XL’s Insurance Operations, XL now has a year to prepare to establish its operations in China.”
I can find no trace of the Bermudian government going to China so it seems that the competition does not need their government to waste tax payer’s money in order to succeed.
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Dave Jones
It is interesting that you consider the States to be doing such a good job. I would suggest that the public disagrees, as indeed do outside bodies (WAO, Tribal Helm), and one of the biggest complaints that I hear from friends and colleagues is the absolute arrogance of certain politicians.
That starts with the globetrotting CM (remember his row with Barry Brehaut?), the joke that is the Deputy CM (Gollygate, the fiascos re the incinerator, Belle Greve Bay, the oil filled quarry etc), Carly McNulty-Bauer (how on earth she occupies the position she does is beyond me, perhaps it’s a case of who you know, not what you know) and now you yourself appear to be going down that road, which is a great shame.
Instead of blindly defending all of these individuals (and the States as a whole) may I suggest that you take a step back and look objectively at what is happening, and maybe even be proactive in finding out what the public thinks (I for one wouldn’t bother phoning a deputy, particularly as several emails that I have written in the past have gone unanswered, showing a complete lack of courtesy). One only has to listen to the Sunday phone-in on Radio Guernsey to gauge what the public thinks of the States and their decisions, do you really not consider that there is a real problem with the current position over here?
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Equet
The cost of running the tankers is what it is, this is about local fuel security not necessarily costs, what price for instance would you put on the island running out of fuel? And don’t forget these tankers bring fuel in that goes on to supply Sark and Herm they also make a special run up to Alderney to supply them. Our Treasury Minister is more than happy that the deal stacks up for the benefit of Guernsey and I am happy to support that view. As for the rest, you might have along wait; you are free to write to Public services, Education, Health and Social Security to get the answers you want on building maintenance. Most of the overspends go back to before 2004. It is true that had the old Board of Administration not overspent on several projects then their would have undoubtedly be more money for other things but you can’t keep blaming every other States since that period for incompetence for things that the majority of the present States members had no part in and I repeat the island is far from being on its knees you must be thinking of some other place.
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How did we get from “Wreath Row – Trott did start it” to Dave Jones defending previous decisions made by the Policy Council (like the purchase of the tankers).
With respect Dave Jones, I do think you are out of touch with the average Guernseyman’s thinking on the performance of the Policy Council.
Arrogance is a word that springs to mind….
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Dave Jones
The cost and running of the tankers is very important. If the taxpayers are funding very expensive vehicles so that the exceptionally wealthy fuel companies can generate even more profits then I feel we need to be in the picture.
It would appear as though zero 10 is working in mysterious ways across many sectors. Companies that see themselves as life lines can request and expect pretty much what ever they can get away with.
If it is the case that we are losing huge sums of money for outsiders to reap the benefits then questions and answers is the best way forwards.
This island has wasted far too much on outsiders filling their greedy pockets because we are so naive and cant formulate our own solutions.
It is the perfect time for the public to be included so that the full picture is out there for all to see.
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Going back to the beginning I would like the Govenor and the Bailiff lay their wreaths
at the same moment followed by the British Legion and the service reps.
I would prefer the deputies to attend as members of the public or stay away altogether. I rather suspect that some of them are there only to get a vote or two.
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And Trott still intends debating the wreath business:this is cringemaking beyond belief.
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Was one of the mistakes not getting the deep-water tanker berth built years ago?
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Peter
I give my point of view, there is nothing arrogant about it, people on this blog make statements and ask questions to which I respond I don’t accuse them of being arrogant for putting their point of view, so I am at a loss to understand why you believe that of me for defending my point of view. The Policy Council is not there as some performing seal it is a forum where all the ministers meet to discuss departmental and corporate states business. The states as a whole decide what policy to adopt and vote accordingly we don’t have cabinet government and the PC is not an executive.
Paul
The States are funding the tankers for the protection and security of our fuel supplies, the fuel companies pay us for that fuel to be delivered, if you want the answers pick up the phone to Charles our Treasury Minister and I am sure he will give you the information you require. As for Zero 10 if you mean the main engine drivers of our economy have some input into our fiscal and tax strategy then of course they do, how can we not be influenced by the people who generate the lions share of this islands income. Much of the business that has come here (the outsiders as you put it ) are responsible for giving us the significant income we need to run our vital services. What are “our own solutions” that you have in mind. We have little option other than to continue to support those who drive this economy and if we had a blank sheet of paper, none of us would start from here but unless any of you know of a group of secret growers who are about to revive tomato exports to the levels of the 70’s and 80’s, or perhaps a cunning plan that will bring back the huge numbers of tourists we also enjoyed in those years generating millions of pounds. Then I suggest we all take a reality check.
Paul this is not a game; it’s about a fight for survival, in an increasingly hostile world where we were fortunate enough to find a lucrative industry to replace those that for whatever reasons have gone into serious decline. I am not denying it has cost us dearly in terms of the quality of island life but no one can deny either that the standard of living for our people has risen massively since this journey began and will continue to improve if we can maintain our income and cut government waste.
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Pete says; “How did we get from “Wreath Row – Trott did start it” to Dave Jones defending previous decisions made by the Policy Council (like the purchase of the tankers). With respect Dave Jones, I do think you are out of touch with the average Guernsey man’s thinking on the performance of the Policy Council. Arrogance is a word that springs to mind…. “
I ask, Pete, what’s your point? Tankers, Dave Jones or your own opinions about people?
So far as this blog goes, it goes where it goes; that’s the fun of these things as they exercise the thought processes into areas that nobody can guess, which is worthwhile;
So far as Dave Jones is concerned it is not right, in my view, for you to mix your views about tankers with personal and insulting comments about someone exercising his right to free speech.
You ask, Pete, “How did we get from “Wreath Row – Trott did start it” to Dave Jones defending previous decisions made by the Policy Council” and then go off on a tangent yourself. You must do as you wish but please, may be you might wish to think about what you submit before sending it and insulting an individual.
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Dave Jones
I notice that you haven’t commented on my post (today at 8.12am) but that you have replied to posts made after it.
Is that because you missed it or because it isn’t worthy of comment?
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Dave Jones
A good start would be to exploit the market and make it very worth while for super yachts and the cruise liners to fill their fuel tanks in local waters. I am sure this would bring in many tens of millions possibly hundreds.
These tankers could turn into the geese that lay golden eggs. I hope this is being considered.
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Phil
First of all, I don’t follow anybody, I am my own person and I am not pursuing anyone down particular road I sincerely hope I don’t come across as arrogant for defending what I believe is right and if I do it is certainly not my intention and I am quite happy to leave this forum if that is how it appears. I support the work of the External Relations Group and the off island visits and meetings that take place. I wasn’t present when the alleged altercation between Deputy Trott and Deputy Brehaut took place and with great respect I don’t think you were either, so neither of us can give an accurate account of what happened on that day. As for the so called joke, the Deputy CM faced a vote of confidence from his peers which he survived and we all moved on. As I understand it the issue of the Tory Canyon oil is being addressed, the Incinerator was voted through by the vast majority of States members, my attempt to get a partial rethink was heavily defeated unfortunately. I still think that it is a bad decision for Guernsey but I accept I lost the argument and I am not sure what point you are making about Belgrave Bay.
On to Tribal Helm and the WAO reports. Tribal Helm says very clearly that the States as a whole provides very good services and at many levels at reasonable costs. However there is room for improvement but only if you want to close all the coastal toilets, remove the subsidy from the farmers and the bus company and sell off Beau Sejour amongst other things. The whole TH report was made up from submissions given to it from the ten departments showing in the main what was already being done and what was under active consideration. many of the savings had already been identified and implemented so Tribal Helm cannot claim credit for several of them as they were in place or active work streams long before T.H. came on the scene. One example is my own department and Housing charging for services, that policy was agreed over a year ago and discussions started back when Zero 10 came in, Charging for services is now in place and was active before TH was even published. Another one of there recommendations was the scrapping of the Homes Loan scheme, again that had already been agreed by the housing board and implemented before TH was published, moving the rent rebate scheme to social security, again discussions on this were started 2 years ago long before TH were on the scene in fact Dep Le Lierve who was then a senior civil servant at Housing drew up the initial draft for this policy about 2 years ago again long before TH came on the scene Andy’s draft paper on behalf of Housing will form part of the overall review of the benefit system, Social Security envisage the new benefit scheme will be in place by 2012.
The net savings identified exclusively from Housing amount to £85,000 – £154,000 over 5 years. We are not big players in this! This is not surprising as we have been running a very tight ship for many years and saving the States money for several years! Through the use of housing associations, we have “saved” the States millions of pounds of capital expenditure which as a direct result has enabled other States’ capital projects to be funded. I am pleased with the report as it has recognised the corporate way housing has behaved certainly for the last ten years. So not everything you read in these reports is doom and gloom. As for the WAO report this is a report compiled from a small number of people who were canvassed in a poll on corporate governance, I will reserve my remarks on this particular report until it is debated in the States but needless to say I don’t agree with you and I hope that will not be taken as arrogance.
Aeschylus & Peter
I can only repeat what I have said before; I see it from the inside so my opinion is bound to be different on occasions from those looking in. How can that be arrogant? and what performance are you referring too? we are not I repeat not a cabinet, that is not what was decided back in 2004 the press and others want us to act as if we are because it suits the government model they want. We are a discussion forum where all the Ministers come together to discuss interdepartmental policy and the work of the PC sub groups, together with looking at each departments policy reports before they go to the States. That it really, the decisions on policy and all legislative matters are made by the 47 members of the States NOT the Policy Council.
Aeschylus I thank you however for your support on other issues, However as a deputy I am used to being insulted personally it now goes sadly with the job and I think this forum is useful, if only as an opportunity to put forward alternative points of view and show that we have a human face outside politics, I can tell you it is not much fun at the moment being a deputy and although those on the phone in and blogs such as these attack us for anything and everything I don’t except that their view is the majority view of islanders. If it is then Deputies will find out at the next election ,I am unlikely to be one of them.
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If any of you believe all that tear jerking rant from the housing minister then you are truly in a bad way.
By the sound of this blog and and the people in general; Trott is a loser, and must go.
Yet Jones decides he is a good man and we’re lucky to have him.
I always knew that fish swim in the same water. Time we were rid of both; then we can begin to sort out the mess that got us into the mess in first place-
Don’t care if he’s been there a 100 years, he isn’t Guernsey, and therefore knows nothing of our fight through the ages.
Let Guernsey people decide.
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Phil I replied when I got home this evening about 5.30 pm
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Phil,
I had the same lack of response from Dave Jones before your post – I wanted to know how he could think that the CM’s visits to China were, in his words, “vital”.
So far, no response.
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Ted
In can understand your posting about who represents who.
as you say that’s your opinion.
For my part; I wish to see the end of the Colonial Idea of A Governor (to keep the natives quiet) A Bailiff chosen by the UK, and many other position held by any except Guernsey people.
I do not (In my opinion) owe allegiance to any one other than Guernsey people; I therefore feel it just to deny them any vote at any time,
Do we Guernsey people have a vote in the UK Government? do we have any say at all anywhere?
I want to see a Guernsey for Guernsey men run by exclusively Guernsey people.
The rest should be told that there are boats and planes, use them.
Of course this does not apply to those who are non-Guernsey; they are welcome; but no outsider to have any place in our way of ruling.
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