THE men behind the formal launch of the Guernsey Bus Users’ Group had a simple message to get across: use the service or risk losing it. For thousands of islanders, the response to that could well be: ‘So what if we do?’
Tribal Consulting estimates that savings equivalent to £80 per taxpayer could be made over the next five years. Yet stopping the lavish annual subsidy to Island Coachways in its entirety over the same period would save £11.25m. – more than £250 per taxpayer – without any material harm to the majority of local residents.
Why? The bus service is irrelevant to most people and government has no idea what it is trying to achieve by subsidising it. Just ask the Environment minister whether his transport ’strategy’ is working and how he can tell.
When the Traffic Committee asked the States to support the bus service back in March 2003, it was on the basis of an integrated package of measures, including paid parking, with a view to reducing commuter traffic by 10% in three years plus a 15% reduction in cars in long stay parking.
Because Environment chose to ignore the wishes of the States – and gets away with it – on paid parking, there is no incentive for the key target of the strategy, St Peter Port commuters, to go by bus. So the taxpayer subsidy is now utterly pointless.
But it is symptomatic of the thought process within Environment. Where, for instance, does the taxi service fit into the ’strategy’ mix?
At a time when the States is encouraging competition in the utilities through regulation and is about to set up a competition commission to look elsewhere, Environment busily spends more taxpayer money supporting an anti-competition cartel for the island’s taxi drivers by setting a recommended fare structure.
Wasn’t that exactly what Commerce and Employment stopped the Guernsey Motor Trades Association from doing over petrol prices?
Public funds have significantly improved the buses, the service and its frequency and no one wants to give up those gains.
However, for the subsidy to continue, islanders – and politicians – need to be clear what they are trying to achieve with our money.
Article posted on 18th November, 2009 - 3.26pm
50 Article Comments
Imagine we tax-paying petrolheads stopped subsidising the buses, so that they disappeared. We’d each save £50 a year in tax – yippee. But we’d be driving round in first gear more of the time. How much would our fuel consumption rise by? 10%? £50 a year? How many manhours would we each lose sitting in jams? 20 minutes each working day is 80 hours a year. £1000-worth? More?? And as for to the pleasure of driving – precious? Or tackling the problem of carbon emissions – priceless? So if you want to enjoy the open road, come to http://www.bug.gg and join me.
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On the other side of the coin, how much traffic is held up by these buses carrying one passenger and stopping in inappropriate places. Traffic would flow much easier without these behemoths blocking the roads. Unless they can pay their own way it’s time we got rid.
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Beaufort
How do you suggest myself and other non-drivers travel if the buses were abolished?
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CheesedOff.
The same way you travelled before they were introduced. I’m suggesting user pays, I never use them but I’m expected to subsidise others that do. I say again, it’s about time user pays. How would you feel if you had to subsidise my car costs?
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Beaufort
I lived, and worked, in Town before the introduction of the current bus service. I now live out of Town but still work there.
So you are telling me to walk. Nice.
How many travel in your car with you?
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Beaufort
By the way users DO pay – the buses aren’t free. So you are telling me and all other non-drivers tough, we have to walk.
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Beaufort
Subsidies are given to things which are considered socially useful. Yes the user pays, if something benefits only the user. But services which benefit the whole community, whether directly as individuals (like education and health care) or indirectly (like reducing carbon emissions or promoting the island as a place to do business) deserve a subsidy. Following your “user pays” mentality, nothing should be free – so we do away with the States education, Medical Specialist Group and social housing – and introduce a toll on all roads.
Why have you never used a bus?
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Beaufort.
“User pays” simply means no more bus service. The ticket price would rise steadily to about £5 per ride, losing customers all the while. Shortly after that the bus would go bankrupt, like the last three Guernsey bus companies did.
Every public bus service in the world is subsidised. And on the other side of the coin, many things which drivers benefit from are subsidised by non-drivers, including traffic police and the rescue services.
But let’s say you get “user pays” and the buses disappear. Then for some awful reason you are blinded and can’t drive again. You won’t get back a functioning, disabled-friendly bus network at the click of your fingers.
Is there any room for compromise in your position? Would you accept subsidised buses if they were smaller and full of passengers? That’s the aim of http://www.bug.gg
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Beaufort, I hope your user pays philosophy extends to North Beach, the Salerie and all those other States owned car parks that you and your kind expect to use for free as some sort of god given right. It’s about time we started making the user pay a proper rate for parking and direct the proceeds towards our fine (but could be even better) bus service.
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Being smaller and less damaging to other road users (wing mirrors etc..) and property owners would help yes. This carbon emissions is a red herring, but that is a debate for another thread. Have a read of this link from a BBC correspondent, food for thought. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ethicalman/2009/11/why_cars_are_greener_than_buses.html
Belinda asks why I never use a bus, well that is easy, they don’t run when I either start or finish work. For anything else they don’t run to where I need to get to and I can’t take dogs on them. So in my case they are demonstrably useless but I’m still expected to subsidise them. As to regards the other things you mention I appear to be subsidising those as well. C’est la vie.
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Squak!
Beaufort’s buffoonery spreads like Torrey Canyon bilge. Sliming up Guernsey with Daily Mailisms and bigotry.
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Guernsey is in a real quandary over its Transport Strategy.
The pros and for roughly along the lines of the following:
– Paid parking raises revenue for the strategy
– Paid parking forces people on to buses
– Paid parking unfairly penalises commuters
– Buses are too expensive
– Buses should lose their subsidies
– If the buses lose their subsidies, the bus service disappears
– Buses provide a social need
– There are too many cars on Guernsey’s roads
– Everyone needs a car
The difficulty I have with this Transport Strategy debate is that, strangely, I actually agree with both sides of the debate on every point.
Yes they are expensive, but we’d be a worse island without them. Yes I know I drive too much, but no bus service on earth could provide for the random short journeys that most Guernsey families conduct in their normal week.
So on balance, unless someone comes up with a better idea, I’ll take the bus service and the tax hit.
And before the bike lobby wade in with ‘everyone can ride a bike’. Don’t bother. Guernsey cannot function in the utopian world of walking, bikes and buses.
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Well Beaufort, how many passengers travel with you in your car?
I carried out a little survey this morning just for you. In the 12 minutes from leaving my front door, getting to the bus stop and waiting for my bus a total of 57 vehicles passed me. 6 were vans with just the driver, 6 spare seats. The other 51 were cars only 2 of which had 1 passenger which left 49 cars carrying only the driver and no passengers. If my sums are correct this totals 216 seats between the 57 vehicles assuming each car is capable of carrying 4 people. These 216 seats transported 59 people which leaves 157 spare seats.
This was at 7.30 this morning so just imagine how many more such vehicles would be around and about an hour later.
In contrast there may have only been 15 people on my bus which leaves 18 spare seats, a little over half. Not the solitary bus passenger of your imagination. I believe the answer to bus travel is smaller, more frequent buses especially at peak times.
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JL Seagull.
That adds a lot to the debate!!
Martino.
The North Beach,Salerie etc.. belongs to everybody, all taxpayers pay towards these facilities. No tax from any one group is ‘ring fenced’ unfortunately, otherwise we could see how much tax on fuel is being spent on the upkeep of roads,car parks,etc.
Cheesed Off
I looked at the buses again this morning, as usual the one route near where I live had the one passenger on it, I genuinely think the most I’ve ever seen on that route is four passengers, more often it is totally empty. You could provide that service using a moped. Think how many cars could utilise the bus terminus for parking, I wonder who owns that land and whether that is factored into the subsidy?
Barry the Bug.
Where do you get the figure of £5 from? I didn’t think it would be as much as that tbh. I thought the subsidy per passenger per journey was around the £1.30 mark.
Neil Inder.
I agree, the idea of using smaller buses is attractive, unfortunately there are problems with staffing and maintenance costs, although the fleet of vehicles that ‘Intransit’ use seem more suitable for Island roads.
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Beaufort
You are, as usual, choosing to ignore questions put to you.
For the third time, how many people travel with you in your car to/from work? Why are you hellbent on providing more parking?
As already stated I cannot drive. I am not alone but am in the minority. There are far too many cars on our roads. It’s high time the numbers of cars per household was restricted. Also the introduction of congestion fees/fines/taxes (call them what you will) wouldn’t go amiss if paid parking doesn’t happen.
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Beaufort
I didn’t suggest smaller buses in my response; I’ve never had an issue with their size.
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Correct Neil. That was me Beaufort!
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Chessed off – does it matter how many people are in a car? Nope.
The bus service is pretty good. But not for the majority. The only other option is your own transport.
The question is do we want to subsidise the bus service? I’ve said on posts before that if we do then it should come from general revenue and not the crucifixion of other road users as the bus service will never be (in the majority of cases) a viable alternative.
And we do not have major congestion on our roads.
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CheesedOff.
In response to your questions,nobody but there again nobody is starting or finishing work within two or three hours of my start or finish times in my household.In answer to your second question, because there is a need. Will you answer my question I posed and you ignored earlier, how would you feel if you had to subsidise my transport needs?
Sorry Neil. ;)
Congestion is only an issue around the start and finish of the working day and around school times.We must be fairly close to the maximum number of cars that need to park, there is after all a finite number of people looking to park their cars.
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Beaufort.
Car sharing doesn’t have to be restricted to members of your household. No I wouldn’t particularly want to contribute to your transport ‘needs’ unless you were to take part in some sort of car share scheme then I may reconsider my opinion. Anyway what’s wrong with you using a moped as you stated they are a suitable replacement for our buses?
But aside from that, as Belinda said earlier, I (and the rest of the island) am subsidising your healthcare amongst other things.
The fact remains that too many cars take up too much space and do cause congestion.
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CheesedOff.
I’m not driving a moped as how would I carry around items I need for work?
Explain to me how you are subsidising my healthcare? Especially as I have private health insurance?
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There are not too many cars on the Guernsey roads, and there is not too much congestion. Sure, journeys in peak times take a little longer but what do people expect? The same journey time no matter what time of the day? It’s about time people became a bit realistic about traffic in Guernsey.
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There’s a States bus debate coming in 4 days time (Billet XXXI Vol 1 pages 2594-2622).
If anyone is interested, the draft Bus Users Group press statement on it was posted this morning for discussion on the http://www.bug.gg website.
Interested members should comment by 15:00 on Sunday. Sorry for the short notice. Hope the Press clear this comment quickly enough. All BUG members were emailed separately at the time.
BUG only launched 5 days ago, but now the wheels are in motion, and we won’t miss the bus.
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I have often seen a bus with only two passengers on board, with fumes pouring out of the exhaust.
You have to realise that these buses, were not designed for Guernsey roads and after 6 months need a lot of maintenance.
They become very damaging to our environment with these polutants, so do bear this in mind.
It is best not to view, the buses with rose tinted glasses at the expense of all unsubsidised others.
I will also add with high unemployment, why are nearly all the drivers non local.
Why are they often going the long way around the Island, and on the wrong side of the road to pick up passengers?
I do use the bus, but also l am realistic and am environmental.
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I’m sorry Beaufort. I was under the mistaken impression that we all subsidise the grant applicable in all doctors surgeries and that we also all contribute to the Medical Specialist Group.
You initially brought up the suggestion that mopeds could be used instead of buses. Not so practical after all are they then?
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CheesedOff.
You’ve misread what I posted about mopeds. I was saying that due to the lack of people that use the bus in my vicinity, they could offer the same service using a moped as opposed to buses. In regard to subsidising healthcare, I don’t see how you are subsidising my healthcare as we all pay for it, you still haven’t answered that.
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Ok so we should use the buses more to cut down on polution. When I lived in Zurich I relied on the transport system to get me to work on time and not deal with a traffic unfriendly city.
So why don’t I use the bus service here.
I need to be sat at my desk by 7:45 latest. There is no bus service that can get me into St Peter Port from L’Eree in time, and yes I have checked and the 07:00am bus would not arrive at bus terminus until 08:08 so would be 30 minutes late!
As I looked out of my windows this morning at the bus stop if was blowing a gale and with absolutely no shelter available I would of had to take a change of clothes with me!
Excuses maybe but at present the service doesn’t offer the flexibility and schedule that I require.
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Beaufort
Have a word with yourself. I’ve said we ALL subsidise healthcare. There. Answered.
Are you solely subsidising the buses then? No -again we ALL conribute.
David
I had to wait to wait for a bus this morning in the same weather believe it or not. I do agree the flexibilty/schedules do need revising though.
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I used the bus as my daily means of travelling to and from work for 5 years, up until April this year. In that time I was late for work probably something like three days out of every five, usually due to the bus turning up late. For the last 18 months that I was using the service, the morning bus was an average 20 minutes overdue, and numerous telephone calls to Island Coachways got me little more than excuses. I eventually realised that my bus had to do the school run before picking me up and the little kiddies obviously couldn’t be inconvenienced by a bus turning up too early to take them to school, even if it meant commuters being late for work. I could have taken an earlier bus but why should I waste even more of my morning standing at an unsheltered bus stop or sitting on a bus in traffic when I can use my car and save at least 45 minutes a day? It may not be as environmentally sound but I think that being late for work every other day for the better part of 5 years would be enough to put anyone off.
In its current form the bus service simply doesn’t provide the kind of service commuters need. I gave up on it 7 months ago and won’t be going back in a hurry.
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Beaufort – why should I as a taxpayer who never used them have funded all these long stay car parks in Town? My employer provides me with a parking space out of Town, ultimately at my expense. I too have private medical insurance, yet I have to needlessly pay towards the MSG and the hospital. Do you park in a free taxpayer-subsidused car park ?
Edquet, why is it that most of our hotel staff are foreign ? Waiters and waitresses? Supermarket cashiers? Hell, even doctors and nurses ? Because the locals either can’t or won’t do the job. Bus drivers are no different.
And to everybody and anybody …. there are what, 30 or so buses on this island that are “too big” …. what about the numerous delivery vans, removal vans, skip lorries, scaffold lorries – just as big, should we get rid of all of them too ….
And the ” that bus/car only had 1 / 2 people in it …. ” argument. Unless you follow it from start to finish all you can say for sure is that it only had one or two people in it WHEN YOU SAW IT. By the time I get to work in the morning my car only has 1 person in it ( me ). When it left home it had 5 people in it. The important thing surely is the maximum people in a vehicle during a trip, not the minimum …..
I agree that at the moment we are throwing a lot of money at the buses and don’t seem to be getting a lot out of it- I like most can think of better ways of spending £2 million a year – but a lot of the blame for that can be aimed at the States and their total lack of joined up government – if they vote in money for the buses and then vote out proposals to raise revenue, reduce car use and increase passengers, you can hardly blame the buses …
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Tony.
No I don’t.
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Tony.
The answer to your question” why are there so many foreign staff”?
It is not the only reason, but if you employ forign staff you can pay low wages and put them 6 to a room in your owm accomodation.
You would have great differculty to do that, to the average person and get away with it.
Like any place in the world we have, people that will not work, but as i repeat that is no different elsewhere.
The question is do the states who own the buses want to employ local people. My experience is that they do not.
As for supermarkets, employing non locals, because they can not find locals, does not Forest Stores employ locals.
Does not G4S have many locals employed, and is it just some try and some give no effort at all.
A good question for you to answer, since you have a down on locals.
Why are 75% of the prisoners in Les Nichols non local, costing £40,000 per year each.
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Beaufort
Do you refund the States the cost of their subsidy for every GP appointment? Even with private health insurance, that is still paid for by the States, and therefore, unless you are paying the States back, I am subsidising your health care.
Do you drive on tax-payer funded roads to get to your private car park?
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Belinda.
I pay tax for fuel for my car, which should go on roads and public car parks but which as I’ve already stated isn’t ring fenced so goes into the central pot. I also pay additional tax on the fuel for my car to subsidise people who use the bus service, a service which I don’t use, so I’m subsidising it. All motorists are subsidising this bus service, along with others out of general revenue. In regards to health I pay income tax which again goes into a central pot to pay for health, that is why I question how CheesedOff and yourself are subsidising me? By just endlessly repeating this mantra doesn’t explain how you think you are subsidising me??
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Beaufort – why should fuel tax be ringfenced for roads?? No-one is pretending it is and so why do you assume that it should? Duty on booze and fags is not ringfenced to fund hospitals. Import duties do not pay the wages of the customs service. We all pay tax and yet we don’t all use all of the services that are provided by the State – so what? To an extent we are all subsidising those activities that we do not make full use of and we are all being subsidised for those services of which we make a greater than average use. It’s called society.
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Edquet I’m not down on locals. Its just that I have a great deal of respect for the non local workforce. They are here, away from home, doing jobs many of us wouldn’t like to do, being paid a pittance in some cases to do it. This island would fall apart if it weren’t for them and I for one salute them.
I doubt very much there is an employer on the island who would refuse to employ a suitably able and qualified “local” over a “non local” – nor would the Housing Authority let them …..
Also I note “in my experience” … does that mean you know of a ‘local’, with a license to drive a bus, who, for no reason, lost out on a job to an equally qualified ‘non local’ ? If so I and I’m sure many others would be shocked and demand something be done about it ….
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TL
I didn’t say ‘fuel should be ring fenced’, does nobody read carefully what other posters say? It would be a useful exercise to see how much motorists in general pay in tax on fuel, then compare how much is actually spent on roads and public car parking and other motoring costs.I suspect a lot is left over and this is going towards general revenue.
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Yes TL – but what Beaufort is saying (I think) is that the original intention of the tax on road fuel was to replace the road fund licence (i.e. car tax). Which is fine.
What it was not intended to do was subsidise the bus service. And that what has got a lot of peoples backs up.
Like I’ve said before on these boards is that the buses should be funded from general revenue.
Yes I know its semantics – a tax here is the same as a tax there. But the principle is at stake – why should motorists, arborists, gardeners, boaters (marine petrol) etc subsidse a bus service? Put simply – they shouldn’t. Its another cop out. Again.
If our esteemed representatives have an environmental agenda – Fine. But target the real polluters by treating the cause and not symptom.
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“I didn’t say ‘fuel should be ring fenced’”
Not exactly, but you did say:
“I pay tax for fuel for my car, which should go on roads and public car parks but which as I’ve already stated isn’t ring fenced so goes into the central pot”
To me, that sounds like you are saying that fuel duty should be ring fenced (for roads and public car parks).
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Gilthead – but the road fund licence wasn’t ringfenced either.
I do agree that it seems a bit odd to raise fuel duty for the stated reason of funding the bus subsidy, rather than simply in order to raise revenue. The two are separate issues. But they are only linked because the States has justified the fuel duty increase in that way, not because the amount of fuel duty goes directly to the buses. The amount of subsidy is not dependent on the amount of fuel sold. If the increased duty raises more money than the subsidy, then the coffers benefit.
I also agree that transport policy needs to be transparent and integrated. If the States wishes to run an efficient subsidised bus service for the good of the island, and raise fuel duty at the same time, then I support that – but it should be clear that this is being done in an attempt to change habits and it should be shown that the transport system is being run in a way that encourages that in practice by making it viable for people to change their habits, rather than the States just using the blunt tool of economics.
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Tony.
I have respect for non locals in the work force.
As for the island falling apart with out them, that is another phase l take offence with.
Since it is obvious by what you say, i can assume you are not Guernsey born.
If you look though are history, we were very innovative and changed and adapted with the new industries.
Of course people came from other counties and places and where welcomed into this Island, but a big part was played by the indigenous Islanders.
I will not have my fore fathers, insulted for all the hard work that they did, so people coming to this Island can now benefit from it.
You are naive if you think that qualified locals are given preference.
If you think the Housing are capable of stopping people from coming to this Island to work, again i say you are naive.
Look at all the non local work vans here, and the amount of workmen arriving at the Airport and Harbour.
I suggest that you ask taxi drivers about this and all the local accommodation that they are taking too.
Just go up Havilland St.,St. John St, Union St. Allez St., to name a few and shout fire.
If you ask them who have got Housing LIcense, i bet you not many have.
I live in the real world do you?
What l said about the buses is correct.
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The survival of the bus network in Guernsey is clearly in Tourism’s interests.
ICW hold the trump card, the Tramsheds, until 2016. So, it’s a racing certainty they would win any pre-2012 competitive tender process. In other words, all Environment’s time and cash spent on competitive tendering will have been wasted.
That in itself will be embarrassing. But worse still, there’s a good use to which the cash and civil servants’ time should be put instead: boosting passenger numbers in 2010. Getting bums-on-bus-seats is as much a marketing job as anything, so Chris Elliott, C&E’s Director of Marketing and Tourism, would no doubt have some quiet suggestions.
Without significantly increasing Island-based bus passengers in 2010 and 2011, C&E will be unable to justify the necessary push in 2012 to look beyond 2016. When the key Depot leases expire, spending capital to re-secure them (or alternatives) in a belt-tightening era will be impossible if the Guernsey public are still shunning the buses.
Therefore, as we speak, Environment is letting Tourism sleep-walk to a painful fall in 2016.
That is why the Bus Users Group (www.bug.gg) is campaigning to doubling in the number of bus passengers in 2010.
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Something I’ve often wondered about because the various transport systems throughout the Islands are very fragmented is if there would be any mileage (excuse the pun : ))in having a combined transport system for all the Channel Islands, by that I mean to include aviation and marine. In regard to buses it might work out cheaper if you are able to buy a fleet for the three islands, i.e. Alderney,Guernsey and Jersey. Same for aviation, and also marine. I’m basically saying that Channel Island Transport for example would cover all public transport and be run by the Islands for the Islands under one company. It should be more joined up and I’m sure significant savings could be made.
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@ Tony
“Also I note “in my experience” … does that mean you know of a ‘local’, with a license to drive a bus, who, for no reason, lost out on a job to an equally qualified ‘non local’ ? If so I and I’m sure many others would be shocked and demand something be done about it”
I am a local with a license to drive a bus.
The problem is that the hours are tailored to suit single people as the majority of bus drivers are non-local single men. This makes it very difficult for me as I have a family and as I am in the minority there is no incentive for ICW to accomodate me it is easier for them just to employ yet another non-local.
Also I would like to point out (and anyone who uses our bus service will know that I am right) The non-locals are not equally qualified as they do not know their way around our roads, whenever there are road closures you see buses getting lost all over the place as the foriegn drivers only learn thier routes and when these are altered they have no idea where to go relying on their local passengers to give directions.
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Can anyone tell me how much profits did ICW make in 2008 and what is the forecast for this year?
After all ICW IS a private company which needs to make profits for the share holders.
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What a suprise that the States don’t want the bus service looked into.
A little too close to home maybe.
Half a dozen directors paying themselves huge six figure salaries of taxpayers money, irrispective of performance.
I might suggest that a good look at the (mis)management of ICW would identify huge possible savings.
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Tony have you read T-L nov 25.
The Environment Dept., Scrutiny and P.A.C. are aware of this happening and turn a blind eye to it.
T-L is one among many, that are treated like this, even the Local Transport Manager has left.
It is not good to have drivers that do not know our Island roads, being set lose without the experience of them.
Some of the tax payers subsidy should be spent on training local drivers, whether or not they wish to work for Island Coachways,
We must remember that it is tax payers money and there are other bus companies who serve the public.
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D-T … 2 things
First of all I know plenty of locals who don’t know their way around the island either. I have lived here for 38 of my 40 years on this Earth, and I still get lost around diversions !!!!
I thought there was some sort of test to go with a license, a local “knowledge”, which had to be passed? If not, that would be an area worthy of investigation.
Second – look at your situation the other way around – you aren’t available to work when the bus company needs you. You understandably seem to want to work 9 – 5 and spend as much as your morning and evening with t he kids. Admirable. A quick look through the timetable will show that the buses start at 6 in the morning, run through till 9 or 10 at night, and are busiest up to 9 am and after 5 pm. Plus the company also runs the islands schools buses. You are saying you don’t want to work at their busiest times – is it really surprising if they employ someone else who does ? Should the schedules be structured around when local drivers want to work, or when buses are actually needed ( and God knows they barely manage that now !!!! ) – and staffed by whoever is willing and able to work those hours ?
Steve – half a dozen directors paying themselves huge six figure salaries . hhmmmm
Back of an envelope calculation …. 6 directors, 6 figure salary, so £100,000 each … no wait HUGE six figure salary .. lets say £500,000 each … so that’s between £600,000 and £3,000,000 in directors salaries alone .. every year …. and its still profitable !!!! That company is a goldmine, where can I buy shares !?!?!?!?!?!?No wait, its a family owned and run business isn’t it ?( and foreigners to boot !! ) With the money its obviously making I assume they’re all driving Porsches and Bentleys to their millionaires mansions on Fort George …
Edquet – I can’t see a post from TL on 25th, so no.
I have, nor would never seek to, insult your forefathers. Guernsey is only what it is today due to the Guernseyman, and I would not seek to take that away from them. I have no doubt that the island could and would have coped without the interference of us pesky foreigners.
But facts are facts – if every worker on this island who is not permenantly resident ( ie on a restricted period license ) were to leave tomorrow the island would be in serious trouble. I’m not saying locals aren’t able to do the jobs, but that there aren’t enough of them to go around!!! Unemployment stands at what, 450 ? Surely that isn’t enough to fill the gaps that would be left ?
Although I realise as a foreigner, who has only spent most of my life living here, been educated here, paid my taxes here all my working life, my opinion doesn’t count as much as that of a true local …..
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Hi Mr Barry the bug,
Reading your post it seems to me you have a big financial interest on ICW and if not you must be writing this for someone else, I believe you should be a comedian, I like your jokes. Literally you say no buses no tourism, wake up and realise there is NO tourism in Guernsey. The second joke you are trying to confuse the issue by adding the tourism dept into the debate, thats very cheep, third, in your second paragraph you mentioned ICW holding the key to the tram sheds that’s pure blackmail can the http://www.bug.gg tell the whole island who is financing this group, Barry the bottom line is the ICW is robbing the tax payers with inflated passenger numbers I know you are going to say this is obsurd OK this is simple sums, hypathetically around 2000,01 a fare from town to Vazon eg £1.80 passenger pays 50p States subsidy £1.30 so if you invest 50p 1 hour later you’re getting £1.30 minus 50p you invested equals 80p profit, now lets go and look at expenditure of this business, driver x amount machanics x amount other staff and of course the MD lets say £1200,000 to 1.5m and I’m being generous. I think the latest subsidy is £1.8m plus the numbers of passengers in 2008 x 60p take away the out goings the rest is clear profit because there is no way in any world it costs over 2m to run a bus company so the Treasurer of the States should demand urgently to see the books for the last few years of the ICW, and get a junior accountant who doesn’t know how to add up and he or she will be saving the tax payer over 1m a year. Barry what I’m trying to say is you cannot have a private company on this mega subsidy where the States cannot get their hands on the books, this has been a recipt for disaster, yesterday I put 3 questions on this forum I was hoping that the MD of ICW would get back to me with some answers, that was a big hope! I think Steve and Adquet are right the States are turning a blind eye, I’m hoping in the next few days to put the same questions to my parish deputies and see what the outcome is. I know we do need a bus service, I have no issued with that but it has to be run by the States.
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Iceman
Coachways blackmailing us ? Its a very long term blackmail plot then …
they have been in the Tramsheds (their bit of which can barely fit their own coach fleet, the actual bus fleet being parked on land leased direct to the States) for as long as I can remember, at least 20 years or so. Back before they even ran any buses. And they never owned the purpose built bus garage round the corner, with all the space and facilities you could wish for. That’s long term, and highly inept, scheming on a grand scale that is ….
As for your “simple” maths, have you actually bothered to check your facts and figures? Or any of the documents available that are relevant to the current contract?
Coachways “profit” from the buses is linked entirely to costs and fares taken ( currently both fixed at 10% , but the profit on operating costs is reducing to between 5 and 7.5% )
Working with the figures in the November Billet ( you have actually read that haven’t you ) in 2007 the net subsidy was roughly 1.8 million pounds. This would include a 10% profit to Coachways. Which by my maths means it actually cost between £2million and £2.4 million to run the service ( depends on what you call the average fare paid per passenger – but it has to be less than 60p … )
As for costs … here are my fag packet workings …
30 buses on the road say average 10 hours a day, perhaps less on Sundays/Bank Holidays ..
so say 110,000 bus hours a year. I’ve no idea how much bus drivers get, but even assuming a modest £10 an hour, that’s a driver salary bill of £1.17million a year ( inc SI contributions )
Other staff … well theres mechanics, say 4 of them ? The girl in the kiosk, ticket inspectors, admin staff. Shall we say 10 people in all, working a 40 hour week, that’;s another £220,000 ish.
Rent – commercial property, cant be cheap, shall we say £100,000 a year?
So thats about £1.5million so far. What about fuel ? Based on my guess above, at an average consumption of 4 litres an hour ( whihc is in line witht the fuel consumption figures i can find for buses around the world )that would cost about £450,000 a year.
Now I have made a ridiculous number of assumptions with no access to the actual figures, but i can quite see how the buses could cost as much as they do.
Whether we get value for money, and whether we the taxpayer should be paying out the amount we do .. that’s another matter. As many have said, there never seems to be a bus where and when you want it. And if you put the fares up to a reasonable £1 could slash half a million off the subsidy ….
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