Comments on: £21m. a year to prop up pensions

Comments on: £21m. a year to prop up pensions http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/ Island News, Sport, Community & Lifestyle Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:55:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Greg http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57350 Greg Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:33:27 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57350 Sorry James, but it really isn't quantifiable on a set basis each year (hence the extra cash that needs to be put in). If investment performance of the fund is poor, the tax payers have to meet the liabilities. This could be far more than 15%. As for UK workers coming here, they would only receive the full benefit of the pension if they retired whilst working here? As we only offer short(ish) licences I would have thought this only applies to a very small amount of people? I appreciate that we need to offer a pension scheme, but it's time we moved away from the final salary scheme because we just don't know how much it's going to cost the tax payer in the future. Sorry James, but it really isn’t quantifiable on a set basis each year (hence the extra cash that needs to be put in). If investment performance of the fund is poor, the tax payers have to meet the liabilities. This could be far more than 15%.

As for UK workers coming here, they would only receive the full benefit of the pension if they retired whilst working here? As we only offer short(ish) licences I would have thought this only applies to a very small amount of people?

I appreciate that we need to offer a pension scheme, but it’s time we moved away from the final salary scheme because we just don’t know how much it’s going to cost the tax payer in the future.

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]]> By: James http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57322 James Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:19:22 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57322 Greg, you're right - it may not be exactly 15%. It is quantifiable though (either by totalling up the input the States is currently putting into the scheme, or by obtaining an actuarial estimate of the value). The pension is of course valuable to people we recruit from the UK, because the States have an obligation to pay that pension wherever the person retires. A nurse from the UK will not leave the NHS and its pension scheme to come and work in Guernsey for no pension, regardless of whether that nurse retires subsequently in the UK or anywhere else. There are plenty of people now living in the UK living on Guernsey civil service pensions, after years of working here. Greg,

you’re right – it may not be exactly 15%. It is quantifiable though (either by totalling up the input the States is currently putting into the scheme, or by obtaining an actuarial estimate of the value).
The pension is of course valuable to people we recruit from the UK, because the States have an obligation to pay that pension wherever the person retires. A nurse from the UK will not leave the NHS and its pension scheme to come and work in Guernsey for no pension, regardless of whether that nurse retires subsequently in the UK or anywhere else.
There are plenty of people now living in the UK living on Guernsey civil service pensions, after years of working here.

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]]> By: Greg http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57291 Greg Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:18:16 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57291 James, unfortunately you're not quite correct. Yes it is part of the remuneration package, but a final salary scheme is not really quantifiable. So your 15% figure could be correct, but could also be wrong. Also, surely the pension doesn't matter to anyone we recruit from the UK because they won't be allowed to retire here? James, unfortunately you’re not quite correct. Yes it is part of the remuneration package, but a final salary scheme is not really quantifiable. So your 15% figure could be correct, but could also be wrong.

Also, surely the pension doesn’t matter to anyone we recruit from the UK because they won’t be allowed to retire here?

]]> By: kevin http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57290 kevin Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:14:30 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57290 will you lot stop saying that people want the pension taken away from public sector employees. the pension payments by the employer (tax payer) are too great that's all most people are saying.This may come as a huge shock to james and truthman but a lot of companies have trouble recruiting so the public sector is not alone in that.The fact is we cannot afford the scheme as it is end of ,move on. will you lot stop saying that people want the pension taken away from public sector employees. the pension payments by the employer (tax payer) are too great that’s all most people are saying.This may come as a huge shock to james and truthman but a lot of companies have trouble recruiting so the public sector is not alone in that.The fact is we cannot afford the scheme as it is end of ,move on.

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]]> By: James http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57285 James Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:02:50 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57285 A pension is part of the overall remuneration package. The employer part of the contribution just means that a civil servant is 15% or so more expensive (to the taxpayer) to employ than their headline salary. If you take the pension away, you'll have three choices: a) face being unable to recruit anyone from the UK, since there is still a public sector pension there. So goodbye nurses, teachers, psychiatrists... b) offer people a higher salary so you can still recruit. Which totally negates the point of getting rid of the pension. c) get all staff locally. Funnily enough, I don't notice a medical school locally, and we do seem to have been unable to train enough staff locally in many areas, but maybe the college of FE could magic something up. A pension is part of the overall remuneration package. The employer part of the contribution just means that a civil servant is 15% or so more expensive (to the taxpayer) to employ than their headline salary.
If you take the pension away, you’ll have three choices:

a) face being unable to recruit anyone from the UK, since there is still a public sector pension there. So goodbye nurses, teachers, psychiatrists…
b) offer people a higher salary so you can still recruit. Which totally negates the point of getting rid of the pension.
c) get all staff locally. Funnily enough, I don’t notice a medical school locally, and we do seem to have been unable to train enough staff locally in many areas, but maybe the college of FE could magic something up.

]]> By: Bob http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57262 Bob Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:03:01 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57262 Auntie GP - I too see hundreds of remuneration packages each year. I know what's out there and that all of these perks are rarely given to everybody. We pay somewhat more than average, so we aren't losing out anywhere. Auntie GP – I too see hundreds of remuneration packages each year. I know what’s out there and that all of these perks are rarely given to everybody. We pay somewhat more than average, so we aren’t losing out anywhere.

]]> By: greg http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57253 greg Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:34:15 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57253 One thing that puzzles me on thsi thread is the number of times Xmas balls/parties are mentioned. They probably come in at less than 200quid per employee, so are not really material in this debate! One thing that puzzles me on thsi thread is the number of times Xmas balls/parties are mentioned. They probably come in at less than 200quid per employee, so are not really material in this debate!

]]> By: Truth Man http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57242 Truth Man Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:39:17 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57242 Equet: I have never said I am a member of any public sector pension scheme, but I am able to see this from both sides. You and I only 'pay into' the public sector pension scheme because some of our tax revenue goes towards the scheme. Public sector employees are members of a pension scheme that relies on employee, and employer contributions the same as many of the rest of us do. If you are a member of a private company that has a pension scheme, which takes contributions from the employer, your customers are paying into your pension. Do we hear your customers complaining about this? No. And for that reason, all this talk about 'us' paying for public sector pensions is nothing but sour grapes and double standards. Get an eye on the broader perspective people. Equet:

I have never said I am a member of any public sector pension scheme, but I am able to see this from both sides.

You and I only ‘pay into’ the public sector pension scheme because some of our tax revenue goes towards the scheme. Public sector employees are members of a pension scheme that relies on employee, and employer contributions the same as many of the rest of us do.

If you are a member of a private company that has a pension scheme, which takes contributions from the employer, your customers are paying into your pension. Do we hear your customers complaining about this? No. And for that reason, all this talk about ‘us’ paying for public sector pensions is nothing but sour grapes and double standards.

Get an eye on the broader perspective people.

]]> By: kevin http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57239 kevin Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:27:03 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57239 truthman Are you for real? truthman

Are you for real?

]]> By: Equet http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57234 Equet Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:23:15 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57234 Having listened to the comments. I agree with with Kevin on his points made. Truthman it is the tax payer who pays 14.5% of your pension and we have not the money to finance it anymore, you will have to like the rest of us pay it yourself. I believe there is a black hole of 250 million in this scheme, over to you get you cheque book out, i do not want to subsidise it anymore. Having listened to the comments.
I agree with with Kevin on his points made.
Truthman it is the tax payer who pays 14.5% of your pension and we have not the money to finance it anymore, you will have to like the rest of us pay it yourself.
I believe there is a black hole of 250 million in this scheme, over to you get you cheque book out, i do not want to subsidise it anymore.

]]> By: alan http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57228 alan Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:50:08 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57228 So a large number of people think the pension plan should be stopped, think on , the finance industry,immediatly before the crash, were crying out for 1000 more staff, and ,contrary to comments here, most do still pay very generous remuneration packages.Pensions at 1X60th of final salary per year,generally non contributery,health care schemes covering the whole family,travel allowance and sick pay not to mention bonuses.better than the states scheme, Oh and the wages have the potential to be far and away better.So tamper with the pension scheme at your peril. When the finance industry recovers those 1000 or so staff needed will haemorage from the civil service. towards the better pay and conditions offered, and it will be the better of the civil servants in varying positions that get the jobs.The civil servants pension scheme provides a pension at 1/80th per year worked for those in the scheme before the recent changes(yes its only just been reviewed) with the WORKER NOW contributing 6.5% so it is already inferior to many schemes.The states as employers had only been contributing about 7.5% of an employees salary, The headline figure is quite frightening to many but because of the acumalated fund is actually quite reasonable.the need for an additional 6.9 million was to be expected. In the 1990s the scheme was explained to employees as the employee paying 6% with the department employing paying typically between two and three times as much,(12-18%) and further added the States make up any shortfall. with the states departments putting less than promised into the kitty a black hole was inevitable, the states have failed to save in the good years and wheras they could now be cutting back they are now needing to revert back somewhere close to their original payment. So a large number of people think the pension plan should be stopped, think on , the finance industry,immediatly before the crash, were crying out for 1000 more staff, and ,contrary to comments here, most do still pay very generous remuneration packages.Pensions at 1X60th of final salary per year,generally non contributery,health care schemes covering the whole family,travel allowance and sick pay not to mention bonuses.better than the states scheme, Oh and the wages have the potential to be far and away better.So tamper with the pension scheme at your peril. When the finance industry recovers those 1000 or so staff needed will haemorage from the civil service. towards the better pay and conditions offered, and it will be the better of the civil servants in varying positions that get the jobs.The civil servants pension scheme provides a pension at 1/80th per year worked for those in the scheme before the recent changes(yes its only just been reviewed) with the WORKER NOW contributing 6.5% so it is already inferior to many schemes.The states as employers had only been contributing about 7.5% of an employees salary, The headline figure is quite frightening to many but because of the acumalated fund is actually quite reasonable.the need for an additional 6.9 million was to be expected. In the 1990s the scheme was explained to employees as the employee paying 6% with the department employing paying typically between two and three times as much,(12-18%) and further added the States make up any shortfall. with the states departments putting less than promised into the kitty a black hole was inevitable, the states have failed to save in the good years and wheras they could now be cutting back they are now needing to revert back somewhere close to their original payment.

]]> By: Truth Man http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57206 Truth Man Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:16:05 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57206 Kevin: Here's my suggestion. You should pay more tax to fund the public sector pension. Kevin:

Here’s my suggestion. You should pay more tax to fund the public sector pension.

]]> By: Auntie GP http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57079 Auntie GP Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:27:22 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57079 Thanks for your reply bob - some interesting stuff there. At the end of the day this is all just hear say and conjecture. All I have to go in is what I know from people around me, friends and family etc. When I worked in the private sector, I had no pension, I had a nice annual bonus, free medical cover for me and my partner and child if I had them (which I didnt) and also a nice Xmas ball and every other year a nice Summer ball too. I worked in an area of finance that allowed me to gain an insight into other peoples renumeration packages. During my time I saw hundreds, if not thousands of peoples packages from pretty much every work place in the island, most if not all finance houses, trust comps, Private Equity, Private banks, high street banks etc as well as different ranking civil cervants, posties, fire, police, the occasional dep, builder, shop worker - you get the picture. I did not meet one finance related worker who did not have medical cover or bonuses, admittedly I couldnt tell you about the Xmas ball as that wasnt a part of the discussion with these individuals, but if you look in the Guernsey Now you see pictures from different corps do's, and like I say I have friends that work for Investec, Deutsche, Northern trust, HSBC's Barclays, Lloyds, Credit Suisse etc and they tend to have xmas balls. The one thing most do not have is pensions, that I will concede Unfortunatly Bob, if you work in finance and you dont get any of these, you have picked quite possibly the worst renumerating finance institute in the island. but if your salary is good and you get by on it and arent bothered about the trimmings then that is well and good. And if you have job satisfaction then it is all the better. This seems to of somewhat slipped away from the orignal thread about CS pensions. I dont know how to solve the problem of affording it - im sure there are ways, decrease the employers contribution, reduce spending etc - but can you tell me that by closing the scheme to new entrants, that the CS would not stutter and fail to get new entrants in? I think I said in a previous thread - think back to being 16, 18, 22 leaving education - bright lights and trimmings of the finance? or the CS whose only glowing light is a good pension? Lets not forget as well - Civil Servants are despised by huge groups of people and put up with a lot of abuse, I dont think Mr Investor walks into your office with a rounders bat, or calls you names and threatens to "get you" down the phone? Thanks for your reply bob – some interesting stuff there. At the end of the day this is all just hear say and conjecture. All I have to go in is what I know from people around me, friends and family etc. When I worked in the private sector, I had no pension, I had a nice annual bonus, free medical cover for me and my partner and child if I had them (which I didnt) and also a nice Xmas ball and every other year a nice Summer ball too. I worked in an area of finance that allowed me to gain an insight into other peoples renumeration packages. During my time I saw hundreds, if not thousands of peoples packages from pretty much every work place in the island, most if not all finance houses, trust comps, Private Equity, Private banks, high street banks etc as well as different ranking civil cervants, posties, fire, police, the occasional dep, builder, shop worker – you get the picture. I did not meet one finance related worker who did not have medical cover or bonuses, admittedly I couldnt tell you about the Xmas ball as that wasnt a part of the discussion with these individuals, but if you look in the Guernsey Now you see pictures from different corps do’s, and like I say I have friends that work for Investec, Deutsche, Northern trust, HSBC’s Barclays, Lloyds, Credit Suisse etc and they tend to have xmas balls. The one thing most do not have is pensions, that I will concede

Unfortunatly Bob, if you work in finance and you dont get any of these, you have picked quite possibly the worst renumerating finance institute in the island. but if your salary is good and you get by on it and arent bothered about the trimmings then that is well and good. And if you have job satisfaction then it is all the better.

This seems to of somewhat slipped away from the orignal thread about CS pensions.
I dont know how to solve the problem of affording it – im sure there are ways, decrease the employers contribution, reduce spending etc – but can you tell me that by closing the scheme to new entrants, that the CS would not stutter and fail to get new entrants in? I think I said in a previous thread – think back to being 16, 18, 22 leaving education – bright lights and trimmings of the finance? or the CS whose only glowing light is a good pension? Lets not forget as well – Civil Servants are despised by huge groups of people and put up with a lot of abuse, I dont think Mr Investor walks into your office with a rounders bat, or calls you names and threatens to “get you” down the phone?

]]> By: Eric http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57073 Eric Fri, 27 Nov 2009 08:10:41 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57073 Now I wonder why a person would make a statement, that in the latter years has been trod on and mis-used by those who THINK they are the cat's whiskers, Those words I speak of are-- ALL MEN ARE BORN EQUAL; Get it? So why do so many boisterous types think they are better, and therefore should have preference over all others. It's time a sensible practice came into being; more justice for the lower ranks. not only the officers of state; They are the culprits, the world laughs at the silly and daft conception of Class Deference. Now I wonder why a person would make a statement, that in the latter years has been trod on and mis-used by those who THINK they are the cat’s whiskers,

Those words I speak of are–

ALL MEN ARE BORN EQUAL;
Get it?
So why do so many boisterous types think they are better, and therefore should have preference over all others.

It’s time a sensible practice came into being; more justice for the lower ranks. not only the officers of state; They are the culprits,
the world laughs at the silly and daft conception of Class Deference.

]]> By: Eric http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/23/21m-a-year-to-prop-up-pensions/#comment-57067 Eric Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:37:17 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39638#comment-57067 If all that is written here is true; May I show my ignorance and ask: Why is the private or any one else for that matter so eager to keep the Banking system in the Island. All seem to be losers, one way or another; don't you realise by now that it's the *BIG BOYS' who benefit. the rest of you are just Skivvies. If all that is written here is true;

May I show my ignorance and ask:

Why is the private or any one else for that matter so eager to keep the Banking system in the Island.

All seem to be losers, one way or another; don’t you realise by now that it’s the *BIG BOYS’ who benefit. the rest of you are just
Skivvies.

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