Comments on: Calling time on ‘gold-plated’ States pensions is long overdue

Comments on: Calling time on ‘gold-plated’ States pensions is long overdue http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/ Island News, Sport, Community & Lifestyle Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:42:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: CD http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57365 CD Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:01:45 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57365 Final salary pension schemes have been around for many decades and they come from an era when people did not expect to live much beyond 75. These days life expectancy is much longer which means the pension fund has to carry on paying out very large sums for a far longer period than was ever anticipated. It is a very real problem and is the reason why big private companies like British Airways and Royal Mail are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. The same problem applies to the States pension scheme and the black hole can only get worse as life expectancy increases. Times have changed and we need to decide now whether the taxpayer is prepared to carry on with these huge commitments. Final salary pension schemes have been around for many decades and they come from an era when people did not expect to live much beyond 75. These days life expectancy is much longer which means the pension fund has to carry on paying out very large sums for a far longer period than was ever anticipated. It is a very real problem and is the reason why big private companies like British Airways and Royal Mail are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.

The same problem applies to the States pension scheme and the black hole can only get worse as life expectancy increases. Times have changed and we need to decide now whether the taxpayer is prepared to carry on with these huge commitments.

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]]> By: Edquet http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57339 Edquet Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:52:52 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57339 Cliff. I must have hit a raw nerve with my, comments but you did not say where l was wrong. It is alright to say rubbish, but please point out where it is wrong. If caring about your Island is having a chip on my shoulder, l will continue, in fact l was used to carrying bags of potatoes. At least Sean McManus answered my questions and i admire a Deputy who does. It is not often you get a straight answer, and my thanks go to him for being honest. One question Cliff. Was it the sensible people who got us into this mess, overspending, structual budget problems and now more black holes appearing like pot holes in the road? Cliff.
I must have hit a raw nerve with my, comments but you did not say where l was wrong. It is alright to say rubbish, but please point out where it is wrong.
If caring about your Island is having a chip on my shoulder, l will continue, in fact l was used to carrying bags of potatoes.
At least Sean McManus answered my questions and i admire a Deputy who does.
It is not often you get a straight answer, and my thanks go to him for being honest.
One question Cliff.
Was it the sensible people who got us into this mess, overspending, structual budget problems and now more black holes appearing like pot holes in the road?

]]> By: Sean McManus http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57267 Sean McManus Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:01:37 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57267 Edquet, thanks for your detailed response. I think your penultimate post asked me to respond to three separate points. In reverse order the answers are :- * I have never run my own business. * I don't recall advocating paying "loads of money", although I did suggest considering the service delivery implications of failing to offer an attractive remuneration package. (Pensions are simply regarded as deferred pay.) * My perceived conflict of interest could be a fair point. I have consistently distanced myself from direct involvement with PSRC for that very sound reason. I do hope this clarification helps and that we can each contribute to a more informed consideration of this very important issue. Edquet, thanks for your detailed response.

I think your penultimate post asked me to respond to three separate points.

In reverse order the answers are :-
* I have never run my own business.
* I don’t recall advocating paying “loads of money”, although I did suggest considering the service delivery implications of failing to offer an attractive remuneration package. (Pensions are simply regarded as deferred pay.)
* My perceived conflict of interest could be a fair point. I have consistently distanced myself from direct involvement with PSRC for that very sound reason.

I do hope this clarification helps and that we can each contribute to a more informed consideration of this very important issue.

]]> By: Cliff http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57259 Cliff Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:19:19 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57259 Edquet - Perhaps you would have managed to get the last paragraph, sorry "phase", across more succinctly if you could manage to control your excitement whilst spouting rubbish. Fortunately it will be sensible people that sort this problem out not those with a chip on their shoulder. Edquet – Perhaps you would have managed to get the last paragraph, sorry “phase”, across more succinctly if you could manage to control your excitement whilst spouting rubbish.
Fortunately it will be sensible people that sort this problem out not those with a chip on their shoulder.

]]> By: Edquet http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57233 Edquet Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:05:38 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57233 The last phase should read. I have some friends retired from the civil service, and now say that 25% cuts are quite possible and feasible and would save 75 million per year. The last phase should read. I have some friends retired from the civil service, and now say that 25% cuts are quite possible and feasible and would save 75 million per year.

]]> By: Edquet http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57231 Edquet Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:46:56 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57231 Kevin it was the final salary part ( Gold Plated ) that l meant, not the pension it self. The simple fact is that this Island can not afford it, and nearly all firms have stopped it. Can the finance afford it, i was under the impression, that banks have been baled out with tax payers money. We can debate the reasons, how badly the financial industry has used our money and it still seems too. Deputy McManus you appear to have a conflict of interest yourself, and you are only the employer on behalf of the people of Guernsey. That is to say it is our money that you spend, and spend in the best interests of the community. There is also the wider community that you should represent as well. Other local firms here and abroad have this problem of recruiting, but your answer appears to just pay loads of money. I do not know if you have run a business, but if you have done you will realize throwing money at problems only create more. On old Guern told me once, when a man goes up the road for better pay, another man with drive comes from down the road and does it cheaper and better. It will be very difficult for the States in the future, with less income and rising expenditure, that they in my opinion, have not the wiil to control. The main concern is wages and expenditure in States Dept. If you where to cut by 1% that would save 3 million pounds per year and increased to 20% it would be 60 million. I have some friends who are now retired from the civil service, and say that 25 cuts are quite possible and feasible Kevin it was the final salary part ( Gold Plated ) that l meant, not the pension it self.
The simple fact is that this Island can not afford it, and nearly all firms have stopped it.
Can the finance afford it, i was under the impression, that banks have been baled out with tax payers money.
We can debate the reasons, how badly the financial industry has used our money and it still seems too.
Deputy McManus you appear to have a conflict of interest yourself, and you are only the employer on behalf of the people of Guernsey. That is to say it is our money that you spend, and spend in the best interests of the community. There is also the wider community that you should represent as well.
Other local firms here and abroad have this problem of recruiting, but your answer appears to just pay loads of money.
I do not know if you have run a business, but if you have done you will realize throwing money at problems only create more.
On old Guern told me once, when a man goes up the road for better pay, another man with drive comes from down the road and does it cheaper and better.
It will be very difficult for the States in the future, with less income and rising expenditure, that they in my opinion, have not the wiil to control.
The main concern is wages and expenditure in States Dept.
If you where to cut by 1% that would save 3 million pounds per year and increased to 20% it would be 60 million.
I have some friends who are now retired from the civil service, and say that 25 cuts are quite possible and feasible

]]> By: kevin http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57219 kevin Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:39:08 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57219 Edquet, I'm assuming (rightly or wrongly) that you are referring to companies in the finance sector, if this is the case I can't believe that they cannot afford pension schemes for their employees, they could always use some of the millions of pounds that zero-ten is saving them. If it wasn't for the ill fated zero ten scheme I'm sure Guernsey wouldn't be in anywhere near as bad financial shape as it is now. Edquet,
I’m assuming (rightly or wrongly) that you are referring to companies in the finance sector, if this is the case I can’t believe that they cannot afford pension schemes for their employees, they could always use some of the millions of pounds that zero-ten is saving them.
If it wasn’t for the ill fated zero ten scheme I’m sure Guernsey wouldn’t be in anywhere near as bad financial shape as it is now.

]]> By: Sean McManus http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57184 Sean McManus Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:48:09 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57184 Edquet Your opening remarks are irrefutable. Your "Why should....?" query is entirely fair and appropriate. Regarding my role : it might be suggested that raising an important component in the wider consideration of pension provision contributes to the "get real" imperative. I would be interested to read your response to the potential professional skills deficit in the event of less favourable local pension arrangements for such employee groups. In my view, the States as a "responsible employer" cannot afford to overlook such considerations prior to reaching an informed decision. Edquet

Your opening remarks are irrefutable.

Your “Why should….?” query is entirely fair and appropriate.

Regarding my role : it might be suggested that raising an important component in the wider consideration of pension provision contributes to the “get real” imperative.

I would be interested to read your response to the potential professional skills deficit in the event of less favourable local pension arrangements for such employee groups. In my view, the States as a “responsible employer” cannot afford to overlook such considerations prior to reaching an informed decision.

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]]> By: Edquet http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57162 Edquet Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:31:43 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57162 Deputy Sean McManus. That appears come from an ex civil servant on final salary pension. Get real, Guernsey is a good place to live or work, why should the tax payer, pay for this when businesses, have had to get rid of it because simply they can not afford it. You are paid to represent the people of Guernseys interest, look at the bigger picture, not just a small minority. The people of this Island needs the states to cut back its expenditure, not just to talk the talk, but to walk the walk. Time is running out, and you have not started to even walk yet. Deputy Sean McManus.
That appears come from an ex civil servant on final salary pension.
Get real, Guernsey is a good place to live or work, why should the tax payer, pay for this when businesses, have had to get rid of it because simply they can not afford it.
You are paid to represent the people of Guernseys interest, look at the bigger picture, not just a small minority.
The people of this Island needs the states to cut back its expenditure, not just to talk the talk, but to walk the walk.
Time is running out, and you have not started to even walk yet.

]]> By: David http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57153 David Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:42:35 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57153 Auntie GP I think you will find that Nordben manage international pension schemes for Nordic personnel working all around the world for Nordic multinational companies, and for Nordic expatriates living all over the world. Guernsey is one of the top locations in the world for running international pension schemes because of their flexibility. Individuals who move around every 2 or 3 years with employment postings prefer to be a member of a portable international scheme than to have pension rights accruing in 10-15 different countries over a 30-40 year career abroad. And before anybody asks, pension schemes are themselves tax-exempt in virtually every country of the world, so tax is not the driver here, its the excellent legislation which caters for internationally-mobile employees. Auntie GP
I think you will find that Nordben manage international pension schemes for Nordic personnel working all around the world for Nordic multinational companies, and for Nordic expatriates living all over the world.
Guernsey is one of the top locations in the world for running international pension schemes because of their flexibility. Individuals who move around every 2 or 3 years with employment postings prefer to be a member of a portable international scheme than to have pension rights accruing in 10-15 different countries over a 30-40 year career abroad.
And before anybody asks, pension schemes are themselves tax-exempt in virtually every country of the world, so tax is not the driver here, its the excellent legislation which caters for internationally-mobile employees.

]]> By: Auntie GP http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57126 Auntie GP Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:26:38 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57126 Kevin, Nordben are quite possibly the most specific business in the world. The service they provide is purely for the Nordic nations. Why do they have an office in Guernsey, hmmmm? I wonder! Kevin, Nordben are quite possibly the most specific business in the world. The service they provide is purely for the Nordic nations. Why do they have an office in Guernsey, hmmmm? I wonder!

]]> By: Sean McManus http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57123 Sean McManus Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:20:45 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57123 Unfortunately, Guernsey has been unable to find enough professionally qualified local people to fill all the positions required to deliver the level and volume of services expected by our population. Consequently, we need to attract and to retain a range of professional staff from elsewhwere. The majority of potentaial applicants are UK-based and able to benefit from a salary and pensions package which Guernsey must match or better if we are to secure their services. Should Guernsey remove final salary pension provision from such occupational groups, we would potentially face a significant skills deficit. I feel confident that there is no need for me to elaborate upon the possible consequences for our health, education, care and policing provision. Unfortunately, Guernsey has been unable to find enough professionally qualified local people to fill all the positions required to deliver the level and volume of services expected by our population.

Consequently, we need to attract and to retain a range of professional staff from elsewhwere.

The majority of potentaial applicants are UK-based and able to benefit from a salary and pensions package which Guernsey must match or better if we are to secure their services.

Should Guernsey remove final salary pension provision from such occupational groups, we would potentially face a significant skills deficit. I feel confident that there is no need for me to elaborate upon the possible consequences for our health, education, care and policing provision.

]]> By: kevin http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57115 kevin Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:50:06 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57115 Whilst reading this headline - has anyone stopped to consider that Mr Cutter might have something of a vested interest or a slightly biased opinion? He is the director of a major life/pension insurance company after all! Whilst reading this headline – has anyone stopped to consider that Mr Cutter might have something of a vested interest or a slightly biased opinion?

He is the director of a major life/pension insurance company after all!

]]> By: Lou http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57107 Lou Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:56:36 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57107 George, Ouch! You being grumpy or are you always like that! Perhaps everyone else should stop posting on here as you appear to be the only one entitled to an opinion. Not the best example, but that what is was supposed to be, I just did not realise working people earned that much! I did say ‘IF a high earner of say 60k’. Going back to the original topic, Aunty GP you make a good point; I find it hard for people to miss it. Guernsey can’t afford it? Guernsey can’t afford no to afford it! Nuff said from me, George you have the floor. George,

Ouch! You being grumpy or are you always like that!

Perhaps everyone else should stop posting on here as you appear to be the only one entitled to an opinion.

Not the best example, but that what is was supposed to be, I just did not realise working people earned that much! I did say ‘IF a high earner of say 60k’.

Going back to the original topic, Aunty GP you make a good point; I find it hard for people to miss it.

Guernsey can’t afford it? Guernsey can’t afford no to afford it!

Nuff said from me, George you have the floor.

]]> By: Auntie GP http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/11/24/calling-time-on-gold-plated-states-pensions-is-long-overdue/#comment-57081 Auntie GP Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:33:30 +0000 http://www.thisisguernsey.com/?p=39673#comment-57081 Andy, I agree everyone should have a state pensionat 65 that is good enough to get by comfortably. However, if that were to be the case and the CS pension was scrapped, what would perspective employees do? Go to the Private sector and get paid £27k pa+say private health care and a possibility of an annual profit share bonus for an admind job or CS and get paid £20k? Of course everyone would want to go to the Private sector - where would the CS be then? Services would disintergrate as staff numbers dwindled. The only way round that is to privatise all services carried out by CS. A dangerous route to take? Andy, I agree everyone should have a state pensionat 65 that is good enough to get by comfortably. However, if that were to be the case and the CS pension was scrapped, what would perspective employees do? Go to the Private sector and get paid £27k pa+say private health care and a possibility of an annual profit share bonus for an admind job or CS and get paid £20k? Of course everyone would want to go to the Private sector – where would the CS be then? Services would disintergrate as staff numbers dwindled. The only way round that is to privatise all services carried out by CS. A dangerous route to take?

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