Andrew Moffat with some inclusive literature. (Picture by Steve Sarre, 0934335)
COMMENTS made by a Guernsey doctor linking homosexuality to paedophilia could have a ‘catastrophic’ effect on young people who are confused about their sexuality, according to a UK diversity expert.
Andrew Moffat is an assistant head teacher from Birmingham who visited Guernsey yesterday to give primary school teachers and nurses a workshop on how to teach children about different types of relationships and in tackling homophobia.
A complaint has been lodged with the General Medical Council after GP Paul Williams said lowering the gay age of consent would promote paedophilia.
Mr Moffat said he was appalled by the comments.
‘It’s disgraceful that he can be allowed to say that. Children struggling with their sexuality need to know that it’s okay to be gay.’
Mr Moffat has written a series of lesson plans and books for teachers as part of a project called ‘no outsiders’ to teach primary age children about diversity, which will now be used in Guernsey’s schools. He said his aim was to encourage children to be open-minded from a young age.
‘It’s about teaching children that all families are valid whether they have a mum and a dad, one mum or two dads. All children need to feel that their family is a proper family.’
He said his course for older children did focus on different types of relationships but wanted to reassure parents that the books were not about sex.
He said it was very important for children to learn about homosexuality because they would encounter it from a young age.
‘Gay people are everywhere, on TV programmes like EastEnders and Hollyoaks and some children might have gay uncles or aunts, but it is not mentioned in primary schools and it needs to be.’
Mr Moffat said his methods were used by 30 local authorities in the UK and so far all teachers had reported the lessons were successful.
The trip was organised by States PSHE advisory teacher Ann Battye, who saw Mr Moffat speak at a conference in the UK.
She hoped the lesson plans and books would also help to tackle bullying in schools.
‘By the time they talk about relationships the children have already taken the idea that you do not exclude people.
Year 1 teacher Natalie Lihou, 28, said this was the first time she had had any training about how to deal with relationships and homosexuality and said it would be helpful.
‘There were many ideas and useful resources about how to talk to kids about it and challenge stereotypes and prejudice.’
Article posted on 18th March, 2010 - 11.30am
102 Article Comments
Dr Williams is entitled to his view, and I am pleased to remind anyone that is on his books that islanders are entitled to choose their own GP.
I truly emplore anyone that has Dr Williams as their GP call the surgery and ask for your medical records which they will provide you with.
You can then register with another doctor, and I think it would be in your best interests to register at another surgery.
Dr Williams is not fit to practise and it does not need the GMC to strike him off here in Guernsey where reputation can mean everything.
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“which will now be used in Guernsey’s schools.”
I don’t want my child being taught about two-mummies and two daddies. IT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!
This is nothing more than English PC brigade lessons half-hinched from a failed country. The UK is at the bottom of the European table on practically every level bar teenage pregnancies, alcohol abuse and pot smoking.
I’m outraged that my children might have this utter job creation drivel. Education should be obliged to inform the parents about this without us finding out from the Press or them trying to sneak it in through the back door.
Social engineering at its most insideous and Carol Steere will be receiving a very strong letter.
Let kids be kids
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@Jane F – so homophobic bullying is ok?
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Who was it in education that thought teaching primary school children about sexual deviance was a good idea. Get this Moffat and his books well away from such innocent minds.
He says his aim was to encourage children to be open-minded from a young age. Some expert he is. Children are quite naturally open minded. Married with children is he? I’d bet not.
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Golden Brown is entitled to his opinion and I would emplore you all to disregard John Lee’s comments. Religous views on homosexuality and the ability to be a top physician are very different and very SEPERATE things. Anyone who can not see this and decipher between the two are blinkered and ignorant.
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Well said jane f, i,m not sure why the states have’nt yet advocated handing out pamphlets to children concerning rape and bestiality, and get all of the serious psycological disorders out the the way in one go ,have we got any plans for that mrs steere ??
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Why don’t you want your children taught about it Jane, do you hope if you ignore it it will go away?
I agree that education should inform you about what your kids are being taught, and that kids should be kids, however, this is a part of today’s society, if your children aren’t aware of it they will grow up uneducated about today’s world. If they grow up eneducated this breeds prejudice.
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Dr Williams’ comments are deplorable and absolutely unacceptable from a professional person practising in a position of authority and influence. He has used his ‘doctor’ status as a vehicle for trying to prove ‘higher understanding’ of the subject and this is disgraceful. For a professional person, who enjoys the privilege of intimate and fragile relationships with often vulnerable people, to come out as a committed homophobe is truly shocking. Doctors are supposed to reserve moral judgment in the course of their work – otherwise how could medicine function effectively.
Homosexual individuals have no more control over their sexuality than Dr Williams has over the colour of his skin and to claim that homosexuality is an aberration is a slur against common humanity.
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Ok Jane F;
- Don’t teach them that it is ok to come from a single parent family
- Don’t teach them that it is ok to have 2 families
- Don’t teach them that if someone loves another member of the opposite sex that is ok as well
- Don’t teach them that it is ok to have different colour skin to others
“Let kids be kids” and allow them to abuse, bully & carry out the stereo-typical views of their parents/peers regarding race, religion & sexuality without giving them informed views that it is ok to be different.
What do you want your children to be taught??
As for Dr Williams, he is entitled to his views on these subjects the way we all are. But hopefully he will soon see that the world he lives in is very very different to the world the majority of us live in. Gone are the days when you are persecuted for your skin colour, sexuality & religion.
By the way I’m a white, heterosexual male, with a wife and children & I am agnostic so have no grudge to bear on any of these subjects.
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Jane this comment is for you.
I am intrigued to know why you feel that teaching children about life is unacceptable. I can understand that this may not be the life that you lead however, it is the life of others.
Please tell me how you would cope with the situation where your child comes to you and tells you that they are gay. Would you treat them differently because the life that they have is not one that you would have chosen for them? I would like to think that you would be able to look at your child and understand that they are still the same person that you have loved and raised their whole life. The fact that a person is gay or straight is not a choice.
I personally feel that it is better a child understands who they are rather than worries to the point of suicide, because the people with small minds decided its better for them not to be taught about all lifestyles.
Is it not important that we remove the hate that exists in this society from the lack of knowledge and understanding, and replace it with acceptance and equality? A child sees and understands a lot more that you are prepared to give them credit for. A child is not born filled with hate, that is something as a parent that you are responsible for.
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“@Jane F – so homophobic bullying is ok? ”
Idiocy. What does my 6 year old, know, care or need to be taught about homophobic bullying for goodness sake. The newspaper reads Year One Education. My child will not be taught this ridiculous PC rubbish at that age. If she ever comes home asking why her friend has two mummies, we will deal with that and explain it to her, No one else. As for breeding prejudice. The other side of that coin is the right to remain prejudice.
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BBB
Why would a child not think that it is ok to come from a single parent family?
Why would a child not think that it is ok to have 2 families?
Why would a child not think that if someone loves another member of the same sex that is ok as well?
Why would a child not think that it is ok to have different colour skin to others?
The answers to these questions will lead you to the proper targets of education.
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Jane F
So if you overheard your child calling another a ‘nigger’ or a ‘wog’ what would you do?
Would you do the same if you heard them call someone a ‘gay’ or a ‘queer’?
Or do you wish to remain prejudiced, and to share that prejudice with your 6 year old?
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As a child who grew up wondering why he felt different and wondering why everyone would hate him because of that difference. I hanged myself.
Fortunately my father heard the noise from the garage of the chair falling and my choking.
I was 13.
After this the things that were unspoken became spoken about and all got better.
So Jane, keep your silence, pretend that all kids are born heterosexual and have no need to be told it’s OK if you feel different.
Stay prejudiced Jane, you’re the best mum in the world.
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Don’t teach them that it is ok to come from a single parent family
It is ok but married is better
- Don’t teach them that it is ok to have 2 families
It’s not ideal. But as a 2nd choice its better than one
Married life is far better than single, twin famlies or two men and women. It’s as simple as that. The emphasis on such a small minority of the population who choose an alternative life style does not warrant the confusion of young minds. Neither is it education ITS ENGINEERING. Some people beleive that you can pick a poo up by the clean. My husband and I do not believe that.
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Doug
How I bring up my children is up to me and my husband. Education concentrates of reading, writing and arithmatic and we, as parents, decide how we introduce them into the world. It is our joint decisionand at our pace.
Doug
I assume as a homosexual man you have no children. You advising me on how to bring up my children has as much value As I would have teaching you how to be in homosexual relationship. You know nothing of being a parent and obviosuly nothing as a nurturing mother.
It’s not education, it is promotion.
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@Jane
I really hope you’re children don’t ‘come out’ as gay in the future. Clearly you are prejudice over something you have no idea over.
Children growing up who realise they are gay need a stable supportive family when they come out. I was lucky, and had this. i know many other who didn’t.
The sooner children are taught that not everyone has the ‘perfect-normal’ life the better. Homophobic behaviour needs to stop, and soon!
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More information about the “No Outsiders” project can be found here:
http://www.nooutsiders.sunderland.ac.uk/
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It is the primary responsibility of parents to raise their children, not the state. When our child reaches school age my wife and I will delegate some of that responsibility to the education department – we will not abdicate it though. As long as that is understood then no problem.
I’ve read up about the No Outsiders project. It appears to be for years 5/6 which is probably about right – I wouldn’t want my daughter taught sex education by her school earlier than that – she is entitled to a childhood and we will do everything in our power to protect her and ensure she gets one.
At an appropriate time though I don’t mind our child being taught in school about any and all religions, sexual preferences, lifestyles or whatever. Children need to be informed about the world around them in all it’s diversity – as long as that teaching is objective and done at an appropriate age then fine by me. There’s no point burying your head in the sand and pretending these things don’t exist.
As for respect, we won’t need the school’s help with that. I wouldn’t want our daughter calling a homosexual a ‘fag’ and not inviting them to parties or thinking they are a lower class of humanity because of their sexuality. Our daughter will be taught at home to respect everyone irrespective of their differences; she will also be taught that she is allowed to hold and express different beliefs to others – including her teachers….and at some point perhaps even her parents! Finally, as she grows towards adulthood she will be gradually allowed to make decisions for herself based on her beliefs.
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Jane F:
You said “such a small minority of the population who choose an alternative life style does not warrant the confusion of young minds”.
This comment absolutely, and totally sums up why you have such an old fashioned view on this subject. Perhaps if you had been given education (NOT promotion, as the use of such a word is not appropriate in these circumstances) then you would be in a better position to make a sound judgement, and you would be a better parent for it.
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I have one mum and two dads! Does that make me somehow strange or different Jane?! My best friend is Gay and i love her to bits and wouldnt want her any other way.
There is nothing wrong with having two sets of parents, have a single parent (the other could have passed away) who cares as long as that child is loved and taken care of!
I presonally would much rather my child know about this now than get bullied and beaten up (probably by your children Jane)just bacuase they fancy or are in a relationship with someone of the same sex.
You need to get a grip Jane!
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Jane F
It seems you and I do not have Human Rights–I thought Gurnsey was a nice place–I am now not so sure
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So here we go again. The wonderful PC brigade come out, bleeding hearts at the ready, and start telling us how prejudiced we are if we don’t share their outrage at a doctor, then at a mother, for not sharing their views and then believe its okay to villify both! Bearing in mind these “worthies” spend all their time banging on about “tolerance”, “understanding” and are big supporters of freedom of speech how can they then suggest that actually, a la Animal Farm, some are “more equal than others” i.e only their way is right! Hypocrites!
Education is about ensuring our children can read, write, do basic maths and have some general knowledge such as geography, the sciences, the arts.
If you want your kids to know about “life” then that is down to you to educate, not the teachers (or are we now using the education system as a form of nanny because we are too lazy to spend time explaining these things to our own children)?
How much is this chap getting paid? We have need of school buildings but we spend money on this drivel!
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Da Do:
Explain to me, please, why you do not have Human Rights, and why are you no longer sure that Guernsey is a nice place?
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Paul le Page – Once again, thank you for a considered, balanced post. Would that more ‘Christian’ parents shared your perspective. Or were as well informed, having gone to the trouble of finding and reading the information, rather than simply condemning it out of hand. If that’s not ‘prejudice’ I don’t know what is!
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Thank you PC nonsense and everyone else excuse my anger. But I am perfectly allowed to decide waht I want for my children without interference from Education systems on a box TICKING excercise.
If any of you beleive that the follwoing seminars which Mr Moffat took part in entitle Queering the Body, Queerin Primary Education does not expose him as an evangelist tand promotor the gay cause you are seriously deluded
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:myEXywTzmKYJ:www.schools-out.org.uk/conferences/docs2008/Education%2520and%2520the%2520Body%2520blurb%2520for%2520SIG.doc+andrew+moffat+gay+rights+activist&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
Mr Moffat is aligned to a number of BLGT associations and, in my view, is sneaking in uder the diversification banner to promote his associations views.
THIS IS NOT EDUCATION.
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i am relieved and heartened to read the many calm, rational and comprehensive posts exposing the barely controlled bile of Jane F and her few supporters.
i have kids at primary and secondary schools and I welcome all teaching input to help them understand that diversity is to be accepted and never feared. I welcome this input at any age and trust the educators to pitch the learning at the right level for the particular age group. ‘don’t tatoo that person’s back with a stanley blade just because he/she is not the same as you’ seems like progress to me.
children need to understand and will welcome such information if provided at the right level. they will also take in the world from their parents, the media and many other very confusing, conflicting and forceful sources and they will need all the help they can get to pilot their way forward to anything like a balanced worldview. it is i am sure much harder for kids today to do this.
what will not help then is fundamental, narrow minded, hate-filled argument, yelled at them by anyone, especially from within their immediate family. they need freedom and knowledge and time to make up their own minds, and wise counsel to nudge them forward to their own view when they are not sure.
Jane f – you sound desparate to avoid your children thinking independently or differently to your obviously prejudiced beliefs. and you also seem a tad hysterical (kids looking to the ceiling going ‘for goodness sake, chill ma’, that is if they ain’t already hiding from you).
violence against gays, and racial attacks, are actually increasing, despite it being 2010. Jane F exposes how much hatred their remains against diversity. if you think this is worth opposing, add your support for reason and tolerance, now, on this site. in the 1940s, if you were not tram-lined, stiff-saluting heterosexuals, the european fascists exterminated you en masse (and no namby pamby doubts about incinerators then either) because you did not match their ‘normal’. and they did the same if your skin was the wrong shade and did the same if you had mental, physical or learning disabilities and did the the same if you were of a religioius, cultural or racial difference that did not fit their bill). it happened very easily among ordinary pepole and it happened partly because decent rational people did not speak out in time against the dictator and the mob.
come on folks – dis the bigotry now (however 3 or 4 lines may be easier and preferable to me going on and on).
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Nobody’s asking you to share our views, just be a civilised human being. Accept it is part of life, educate our young people about all forms of diversity so they are equipped to go out into the world. Above all, don’t judge or discriminate against ANYONE, whether it be on the grounds of skin colour, age, sex, sexual orientation, class, (I could go on and on…). It really isn’t rocket science.
And as Stonewall say: “Some people are gay. Get over it”.
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I agree with PC Nonsense’s comment (above). Reading through the comments just now it struck me how intolerant the comments were against Jane F. It’s all so ludicrous. She has an opinion; as do others. If people demand tolerance of their opinions then at the very least they should extend the same courtesy in return. Sadly lacking evedentially…
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Great post PC nonsense , yawn, yawn. Typical right wing tripe and insults.
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No Jane, of course I don’t know how to be a mother but equally you, as a heterosexual woman, have no idea what it is like to grow up as a child with a different sexuality.
The worrying thing is that you don’t care either.
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Doug
Your difficulties are not my difficulies and mine are not yours. You may not believe me but I do empathise with you and it is quite clear that you have had struggles.
We will pursue this with the Education Board. And we will investigate what our options are.
I won’t revert to mud slinging as this is very much the first defence of people who disagree on these issues. In your minds I am a homophobe, ‘old fashioned’ or from another era. In our minds we want to decide what is right for our children and will never be pursuaded that this falls within the realm of Education.
This is the last you will hear from me on the subject, but I will watch this discussion with interest.
Well done, you shouted us out of the debate. Have a good weekend.
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Mimi:
The point is, Jane F is wrong, and she is being told as much. She talks of ‘lifestyle choice’, and this alone provides clear evidence that she actually does not understand the issue here at all. Thank god, for the sake of society, her children go to school to be educated by people who do.
This is not right wing tripe Pete, this is about people understanding differences and accepting them. There is nothing right wing about that at all!!
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I largely share Paul’s view on this as a fellow Christian. However the point does go a bit further in my opinion, and that is the general view, of Christians, and then the “world” view (if you permit me to make what I believe is now an accepted distinction) of right and wrong.
Is it right or wrong to be homosexual? Or is homosexuality – the act, what is wrong (or right).
What I believe, and I think Paul does is that while objective teaching of the world’s diversity is necessary and appropriate, I have more of an issue when validity is claimed.
Validity surely must be measured against an agreed understanding of right and wrong. This does not necessarily need to lead to prejudice.
In addition, Paul has said elsewhere it is not Christian to deny homosexuals welcome to church or to God. That is wholly correct and biblical. Jesus taught that and lived it out himself.
However, Jesus was clear about what was “right” behaviour. It’s OK to be a thief, but stop thieving. It’s OK to go out with a few women, but once you marry, that’s that. It’s OK to not believe in Jesus, but once you do, then that’s that as well.
Can you then not see the distinction between accepting and being perfectly happy with your children (and us as adults) being aware of, and accepting and loving all forms of family and individual, while at the same time acknowledging that that, in a certain framework of right and wrong, is not right.
I’m really sorry, I’ve done this fast as I have to go out, and won’t be able to re-read it, so any wierd stuff, don’t judge just yet, ask instead! lol
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I think at the root of this ‘more paedophiles are homosexual’ is a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between adult sexuality and paedophilia.
The logic appears to go something like this. (Gross simplifications).
Paedophiles are men (wrong – see recent court case).
80% of sexual abuse involves girls (best we’ve got, but reporting of sexual abuse is problematic) – therefore these are ‘heterosexual paedophiles’.
20% of sexual abuse involves boys – therefore these are ‘homosexual paedophiles’.
Since the proportion of the population that is homosexual is between 5% & 10%, ‘homosexual paedophiles’ are proportionately twice to four times greater than heterosexual paedophiles.
The problem is ‘homosexual’ and ‘heterosexual’ describe adult sexual orientation.
Paedophilia describes attraction to pre-pubescent children.
They are completely different things.
Its a bit like saying ‘apples are redder than bananas’…..
And a GP should know this, and if he doesn’t he should do his homework before writing to the newspaper in his professional capacity.
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Jane f –
Once upon a time, there was outrage from parents when they learned that their children would be taught sex education at school. They used the same arguments as you; that education should consist of reading, writing and arithmatic, and that more complex and personal issues should be dealt with by the parents. Of course, some parents failed to have “the talk”, or taught the bare minimum and preached abstinence until marriage. They are then surprised at the growing rate of teenage and unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections.
It would be inconceivable in this day and age for children not to be given decent sex ed at school, because sexual relations are a part of life that need to be understood. It is the same with sexuality. Children need to accept from an early age that homosexuality is a normal part of life, or hatred and prejudice will continue.
Incidentally, being gay is not a “lifestyle” that you can “choose”. You are born that way. The only choice is whether to be true to yourself and the way God made you, or to live a lie to escape the prejudices inflicted by a narrow-minded society. That is not a choice any human being should have to make.
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Jane F – Out of curiosity have you read the material in the link posted by Paul le Page at 3.58 yesterday? What did you think?
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I haven`t read anywhere where Jane f is spouting out any hate towards gays or even suggesting she has a problem with them. She just has a different approach towards it regarding her children and that is her right.
I suppose i`m homophobic as well now?.
Then you get silly comments from someone like Vee
Quote.
“I presonally would much rather my child know about this now than get bullied and beaten up (probably by your children Jane)just bacuase they fancy or are in a relationship with someone of the same sex”.
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FlyingScot – a lot of my views stem from the firmly held belief that raising our daughter is the responsibility of her parents, not the state. Rest assured if we ever think the state is encroaching or undermining that, have no doubt they will hear from us! :-)
I will take great interest in what teaching material is used for our daughter throughout her schooling. It appear that contrary to my previous post the “No Outsiders” project includes material for younger children as well. I will certainly do my research when the time comes (my daughter’s not even 1 yet so it could have all changed by then!) as I would take objection if they start talking about sex or sexuality any younger than year 5 as I personally think it is too young. Nevertheless, providing it is done objectively, teaching that not everyone is the same is still part of natural development.
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Jane F:
I think it’s a shame that strong views against you have ’shouted you out of the debate’. If you have a counter argument then please, let us know – that is what debate is all about.
I would be particularly interested to hear your argument for calling homosexuality a ‘life-style choice’. For me, hearing you calling it a ‘life-style choice’ instantly discredited you and your surrounding argument lost it’s basis immediately. You come across as being homophobic at worst, and ill-informed on the subject at best.
Therefore I would urge you to continue in the debate, you might learn something – equally, so might we all if you can present your argument well.
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@ Jane F – “Don’t teach them that it is ok to come from a single parent familY
It is ok but married is better”
I find that a really interesting comment. My mother was married to my abusive and violent step-father for many years. I can tell you for a fact that when she became a single parent, life for me was certainly ‘better’. By simply being married, or in what you would term as a ‘normal’ relationship, does not automatically make your children’s life better.
Love and stability are things that make a happy family life, not marrige.
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My “birds and the bees talk” consisted largely of my mother hovering around the lounge door on my 16th birthday egging my dad on to say something. He sat on his chair turned down the corner of the GP, looked at me and said. “You’re 16 now son – so watch it”. Mum turned on her heels tutting to herself. I have no issues with sex education and have to accept, somewhat grudgingly, that the age bar has dropped for a child’s exposure to all manners of modern issues.
I concur largely with Jane F (no doubt will be flamed now) inasmuch as the promotion of these issues, in terms of same sex partnerships, to 5 and 6 year olds is simply too much, too early and of no relevance to them at that age. 8, 9 or 10, well ok. 6 years old? Definitely not.
The default position for those who disagree with parental views which don’t match current dogma seems to be, disappointingly, to single them out as bad parents.
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There is on place anywhere for the peoples that practice or think it is ok it is not right or natural so sort yourselves out or leave Guernsey
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bcb –
Jane f has not been spouting hate, and I do agree that some of the responses to her comments have been unfair. However, she has demonstrated that she doesn’t fully understand the problem here.
As I said, homosexuality is not a “lifestyle choice” as Jane put it.
I understand how parents might wish to be solely responsible for teaching their children about some aspects of life. I’m sure Jane will be ready and willing to approach the subject of sexuality with her children when the time comes.
However, there are plenty of parents who ARE homophobic, and if left to them their childrens education on the subject will go like this: Either they will say nothing, pretend it doesn’t exist, ignore it and avoid questioning.
Or, their child will grow up in an environment where sneers, insults and jokes directed at gay people are quite normal. They’ll be taught that yes, it happens, but it’s disgusting and wrong.
Total ignorance or open disgust… both breeding a lack of understanding, prejudice and hate. If a child has no other authority figure addressing these issues, it will never change.
I do agree that the parents should at least be informed by the schools, though!
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Neil Inder:
You mention current Dogma. Isn’t that exactly what education is all about in this context? Over time, things that were unacceptable to the human mind have become more acceptable through proper education. Dogma as you call it has been altered through this process. I’m not sure that anyone has called Jane F a bad parent, have they? For me, it does seem apparent that there is a gap in her knowledge, and this affects what knowledge she can impart on her children. The same applies to many parents, hence, schools are a requirement in modern societies. In one way or another we all rely on schools to educate our children because we cannot do it ourselves.
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To Neil Inder –
I’m afraid it absolutely is relevant to children of that age, whether you like it or not. Many of my gay friends said that they knew from day one that they were gay – literally, from their earliest memories. Imagine how scary it must be, as a six year old, not understanding why you don’t feel the same as the other children, why you don’t relate to their fantasies of marrying a prince and why you want to hold the hand of another little girl. These insecurities will only get worse the longer the issue is left in the dark, and frankly, by secondary school the damage may already have been done.
I’m not saying the nitty gritty details and the biology of homosexual relations should be taught at that age – far from it! BUT there needs to be an awareness. I still hear young teenagers using the terms “gay”, “queer” and “faggot” as insults to each other, indicating that the whole concept of homosexuality is still something of a novelty which they don’t fully understand. In 2010, I find that quite unacceptable.
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Tina W
She didn`t say all so dont pick out individual cases.
And she is right to say it is better.
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it seems to me as a straight, liberal atheist with no children that teaching inclusion to kids is good, we are the same regardless of who we choose to have intimate relationships with.parents are not the only ones to bring up their children, i was raised by my experiences in society aswell as my parents, with life played out through the lens as it is these days kids need to be taught as much as poss about the variety of life so it isn’t a surprise whien they encounter it away from parents as older kids or grown ups.i would have liked to have been more educated regards society when i was young.having been to an all boys school until 18 and being rasied on guernsey i was behind others in terms of being adjusted to the mix in society, being sheltered did me no favours.
also, i see some of you are christians, well i think your beliefs are ridiculous and absurd like all religions and to me it’s religion that should be removed from the classroom and left for kids to discover if they want to, no prayers etc in school,this may help in removing some of the bigotry.at least gay/lesbian people are real.
roll on the rapture.
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bcb –
There have been studies conducted as to whether traditional married couples make better parents than gay or lesbian couples. Thus far, there has been no evidence whatsoever to indicate that they do.
Jane F made a gross generalisation when she stated that single parent families are ok, but married is better. However, I do agree that, if we lived in a world where we could pick and choose the perfect family environment, two committed, loving parents would be the ideal way to bring up a child.
What a shame then that civil partnership is still illegal in Guernsey.
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billythefish – I agree with you entirely. Opposing beliefs do not necessarily lead to prejudice. To put that more clearly – opposing beliefs should never lead to prejudice.
As an evangelical Christian that believes the Bible I (and will teach my daughter to) accept and respect people of all races, cultures, sexual preferences, beliefs (religious or otherwise) and behaviour as fellow human beings – equal in value and worth to myself. To attach a lesser value to an individual because of any difference is contrary to the Biblical teaching that we are made in the image of God.
I will also seek to model inclusivity by actively encouraging diversity in relationships. The Bible teaches that we have all equally fallen short of God’s standard and we all need Jesus to save us – I wrote a while back in an attempt to explain this further: (http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2010/03/05/gay-age-of-consent-comes-back-to-states/#comment-63671).
What I will not do however is “celebrate” anything that contradicts my faith. Neither will I teach my daughter to do so, although if she chooses to as she grows that is her prerogative, there comes a time when people make their own minds up. This includes homosexuality as I believe the Bible clearly teaches it is contrary to God’s natural design for sexuality. I totally accept that isn’t a view shared by all, indeed I don’t expect anyone who isn’t a Bible-believing Christians to either understand or agree. However in the words of Martin Luther: “my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe.”
I know this often leads to accusations however I am confident intelligent people can discern the difference between hateful prejudice against people and strong differences of belief – if they can’t there’s nothing I can do about it really. To illustrate this point, I have a friendship with a homosexual who is also an atheist. We couldn’t have more different beliefs if we tried, yet our friendship is based on the fundamental truth that we are both equally human and of equal value, despite our many differences.
How does this apply to education? I stand by what I wrote above which is it is entirely appropriate for our schools to teach about diversity, inclusion and equality at an appropriate age; it is also entirely right to have a system of education that respects differences. I want an education system that demonstrates, teaches and encourages acceptance of everyone by virtue of our common humanity, yet respects the individual right to deeply held convictions.
PS nikkers – your attempt to provoke an outraged reaction didn’t work….heard it all before mate, water off a duck’s back – sorry! :)
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Paul you write your view well and clearly put thought into them. Whilst I don’t agree with all you say I do respect the way in which you word your thoughts.
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i know! gutted! i just can’t help knocking you god squad!nevermind, as for “heard it all before ” right back at you.
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TM
It depends largely on whether one agrees with the dogma. I’m naturally sceptical of any political ativism fed through the system of education. And its undeniable that for political dogma education has been the weapon of choice for the last 20 years or so.
But we can argue that one all week………
Kc
I largely agree with your response to my post. We just part company with our views on the age start.
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The Barron – you say “There is on place anywhere for the peoples that practice or think it is ok it is not right or natural so sort yourselves out or leave Guernsey”
I hope you’re a wind up artist and that isn’t your real opinion. Who are you talking about? I assume you’re talking about homosexuals given the context; still it doesn’t really matter who you’re talking about, it’s rubbish nonetheless.
Why should anyone leave Guernsey?
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hehe no worries nikkers….nothing wrong with a sense of humour. Better luck next time, you might bump into someone a little more sensitive! ;-)
Thanks Doug – appreciate it mate :-)
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Neil Inder:
Thank you for your considered reply, I agree, we could go around in circles, and I also agree that political agendas should not necessarily have a place in our schools.
BUT (a big but!), can you honestly call inclusive practices, and eduction to promote inclusion, political activism? I don’t think we can, especially when the core of this issue is about teaching children that being gay is normal. What is political about that?
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nikkers
The god squad ? lol
Is it any more absured then the primordial soup squad?. Bit off topic i know.
I`m not religious by the way.
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@ bcb
Please don’t tell me what to say, this is an open forum.
She’s not right to say it’s better though is she, as I proved with my case. And she totally contradicts hersef – ‘don’t teach them it’s ok….it is ok’.
What she’s saying is, sit 2 children in front of you, one from a single parent family and one with married parents and tell the one with the single parent, ‘you’re ok, but this child is better’. That’s inequality in it’s very essence, which is essentially what this whole debate is about, treating everyone equally regardless of race, sexuality, parentage, disability etc. etc.
2 loving parents is the ideal situation for a child to be brought up in, I agree. However stating that marriage is the key is inaccurate.
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bcb – the Primordial Soup Squad whether they are right or wrong don’t usually suggest that The Soup sits in judgment on mankind and seek to be the anointed mouthpiece of the afformentioned Soup (of whatever flavour)
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Tina W
Sorry about telling you what to say but actually i said, what not to say.
You said
What she’s saying is, sit 2 children in front of you, one from a single parent family and one with married parents and tell the one with the single parent, ‘you’re ok, but this child is better’
Now your doing a similar thing by saying something she never said. Where did she say the children were better?.
I think she was just pointing out that it was on the whole a better enviroment for the children?.
I just read what she said and tried to understand her view where as you just twisted it to mean something else.
You also proved her point as well as your own because she did say it was ok, which i`m sure you are.
I think the issue is a bit clouded as i dont relly fully understand exactly what they are being told (the children) and in what context.
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The reaction to Jane F’s posts is laughable.
Not once have I read into any of her posts any hint of homophobia and anything else the PC brigade are accusing her of.
I think if you go looking for something then you find your damndest to find it, and you went looking for homophobic bile and you found it where none exists.
They are her children, she should have the final say as to what they are fed at such a tender age.
Perhaps if you all climbed down off your high horses for long enough you would read the views of a concerned parent who has different views to your own.
Just because the views are different to your own does not make them any less right or wrong as they are her OPINIONS!
The fact that on issues such as homosexuality, religion, race etc, the race for everyone to appear “accepting of all” by lambasting anyone who even slightly questions things just only goes to prove you as the opposite.
And before you start accusing me of something I havent done, I actually went to a civil partnership ceremony last month for one of my closest friends, he’s been reading through this rubbish and he is as dismayed as I am to the reaction to Janes’s post just as I imagine the bulk of rational homosexual people who read this would be.
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Yes, Tina W, that’s what she’s saying (slaps forehead in amazement).
She’s saying to actually wander about telling single parent children they are not as good as others. Of course, I believe from what she is saying that we should follow that up by poking them with a stick.
Honestly!
How about saying to the child in your example,”hey, your upbringing has not been as ideal as this other child, but you’re just as “good” as each other. Oh, and actually kudos to you for thriving in a less than perfect environment.”
Eeerrrrr….No, I like your negative view better… now where did I put my poking stick…
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arapaho…so being gay is a psycological disorder, we better bring in the eletric shock treatment for a Saturday morning down in the church square then! Jane F a small minority……really only in Guernsey cos its seems so homphobicly-oppressive. The rest of the world…i dont think so. For the record your choices on education. I think youll find it falls under RE and citizenship and the teaching of it, is law! Steven gay being sexual deviance….really? I am pleased to see some support in the comments. Id love to know what school Janes kids go to, just so i can narrow the bullying down if mine go there and her kids realise theres kids ith same sex parents! GET INTO THIS CENTURY.
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dear flying scot,i have not commented about dr williams as we all have our own private thoughts about that ,BUT I WILL COMMENT ON WHAT YOU SAID about calling a black person a wog or nigger as you said ,as a mother of a black child ,what the hell does that have to do with what the subject of dr williams story do with some being called these vile names about there skin colour ,everybody in this world is entilted to there oppionion but with people like you saying these names what chance is there on the next generation of black children got with the comments thats already being made ,and if that comment was heard in the streets you do know that is racist abuse ???????
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gys overseas
So you have made up your mind that Jane`s kids are bully`s and you want tolerence ? i think you need to get a brain then maybe you can enter the 21st century.
Accuseing her kids of being homophobic when you know nothing about them or her,,,, in a word pathetic.
Dave Haslam
Well said.
note to Jane F.
Sorry but it seems you have know right (or one that will be tolerated)to bring up your children in the way you see fit, even though you have stated you would deal with the subject yourself. And i cant read where you said in a negative way.
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Well said Doug. And at least the Primordial Soup Squad don’t set up oppressive religious institutions that provide an environment for predatory paedophile priests to abuse the vulnerable young people under their care for decades on end before being called to account.
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Doug
Although i take your point i was merely pointing out one belief is no more or less absurd than the other, because we really dont know 100%?.
There are actually horrible people past and present that see some humans and esp some races as sub-human and a lot of that comes from the miss quoted or taken out of context, survival-of-the-fittest text.
Anyway i think this is well off topic now
sorry.
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Dave Haslam:
Hello Dave, long time no argue!!
I think Jane F showed a lack of education at best, and blatant homophobia at worst, when she referred to homosexuality as being a lifestyle choice.
I agree, the main thrust of her point seems to be her desire to make her own choices concerning her children’s education, but the expression she used does seem to indicate there might be an underlying issue behind her motivation.
It’s a shame she left the forum, as it might be that she just used a bit of sloppy phraseology – and indeed she may not be homophobic at all. Come back Jane F!!!
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Gys Overseas
Not wanting to argue semantics here, but if you want to be pendantic, the definition of deviance is as follows
“Differing from a norm”
Now, unless something has changed and hetrosexuality is not the norm anymore, I think Stevens point stands.
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I am a minority apparently…. I have been married to the same man for 25 years. Shock horror – he has never taken drink or drugs and has never beaten me or my children up. This to ME and MY family IS the norm. I believe it should be the norm to have two parents because kids need mothers, and fathers who stay around longer than for simply the insemination bit of the relationship, but somewhere along the line these guidelines were moved too….
I don’t want my son to be taught about homosexual relations, anymore than I would be happy for him to be shown a film on auto-asphyxiation for recreational purposes or for S&M parephernalia to be handed around in class. Similarly, I have no interest in him learning to read from the Koran.
I dont think I am racist or homophobic to have these views – but it seems to me that merely to have an opinion these days is wrong.
I hope my child grows up to have what I think is a normal relationship (sorry if that offends) but if he turns out to be gay, then I shall embrace his partner, and hope that he is as happy as Larry…. and hope that he is as happy in 25 years with whomever he loves as I have been in my little bubble with my husband.
Incidently, I think it was wrong to attack Jane F for her views – shame on you, you should be more inclusive of individuals views.
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bcb I find it absurd that you believe that scientific theories about the cosmos and its origins, based on observable data and empirical evidence, are as absurd as god theories based on superstitious mumbo jumbo written a couple of millennia ago when the mainstream beliefs about our planet were that it was flat and based at the centre of the universe.
Yes, you’re right that this is a little off topic, but in one way it is very relevant to this debate because most of the opposition to the lowering of the gay age of consent comes from people who still believe in all this nonsense.
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Sarnia
Careful, they will be accusing you of all kinds of bile shortly, just because you are trying advocate family values.
Your last point is excellent by the way.
The PC brigade love to tell you where you are so wrong and they are soo right, shame they dont uphold these values themselves.
Truth Man
Yes, nail on the head, what is probably at worst sloppy phraseology and a difficulty expressing views on the internet has resulted in a bunch of self-righteous “look how much more accepting I am than you” no-marks broadsiding a concerned parent just because her views are different.
Yes, a shame she left the forum, but that just seems to be the way of things now.
Right, I’m off to advocate the wearing of the Kirpan in pubic schools to show how religiously tolerant I am.
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to sarnia expat -
your family bubble is just that – step forth and breathe the fresh air of the real world. your bubble is the norm to you, but it is not a god-given or any other-given norm. just what you you feel safe in. and that’s fine. but there are no guidelines or moral norms set in stone – all societies are constantly changing and that includes their values and behaviour – there are just lots of shades of grey within the limits of a society’s formal (and changing) consensus – i.e. the law of the land.
your son will probably know (in an inadequately child or teenage way) all about some of the variations in sexual behaviour from peers and his mobile phone. you could help him be independent, and less ignorant, and make informed choices about what he believes and how he behaves, by letting him be given a wide a range of information as possible – and probably the most objective and factual info will come from his schooling.
you have no interest in him learning to read from the Koran? i doubt reading loads (if any)of it will be compulsory, but how about asking him, if /when he is old enough, what HE wants to do – is it not his choice to understand, and thereby potentially better tolerate, other people? my kids learn at school about other races and cultures and religions and that includes respect for those differences and I cannot think of anything more worthy. if my kids understand, they will be less likely to fear. and if they are less likely to fear, they will be less likely to choose to hate.
i hope fate calls your bluff and your son does have a gay partner (and i don’t envy the chilly embrace he gets from you) – together they may get all this through to you.
do not be afraid – there are no Koran-reading homosexuals, crouched behind your hedge, sharpening their pins, hell bent on on your family’s moral melt-down.
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The more I look into this story, the more I’m uncomfortable with this. TM, this related directly to ‘activism’ I responded to Friday of last week; amongst a couple of other concerns laid out below.
So here goes………..
Mr Moffat represents a group called ‘No Outsiders” which, from their website is a group that ‘researches’ approaches to sexual equality within primary schools. They seem to be linked to a loose federation of associations that promote LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender) issues.
At a recent event ‘No Outsiders’ had a seminar entitled “Queering the Body: Queering Primary Education”, his involvement was a 45 minute speech on “Bodies and minds: essentialism, activism and strategic disruptions in the primary school”.
The only piece I can find that is authored by Mr Moffat is
http://www.limbrickwood.co.uk/no_outsiders.htm
In the GP story he states that his literature has been accepted at 35 UK local authorities. There are, according to Wikipedia, 434 local authorities. Doesn’t look to me like national acceptance.
Mr Moffat was invited to Guernsey by a PSHE teacher. It looks like this teacher decided/persuaded her Primary school colleagues to introduce this topic as part of the Year 1 (5 year olds) curriculum.
So the questions I have on the subject are:
………………
How much research was conducted into Mr Moffat’s background and politics?
What is the Education Department’s policy/view on diversity as part of the curriculum?
Is Year 1 the appropriate age for introducing sexual equality lessons?
The most intriguing question for me, which came out of the piece was my surprise as to how a solitary teacher decides what should be in the Year 1 agenda.
What control does the Education Department have over the curriculum?
………………
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Martino
I find it absurd you replied with something i never even mentioned. I was talking only about how life began and nothing else, and NO ONE knows how it started FACT. Unless you know something we dont?.
Its not absurd it`s just being open minded.
As for your last statement, How do you know?
do you remember Hitler?.
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Did I say ever claim that anyone KNOWS how life started bcb?
No, what I said and what I repeat now is that theories based on science to best explain how life/the universe started are far less absurd than god based theories. Obviously you didn’t read my post properly either.
PS To invoke the memory of Hitler really does show the paucity of your argument
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Martino
I never even mentioned the theories of how the univesre started and in fact are well aware of them and the evidence for it, But there is none for how life started, just theories.
In any case i cant see whats absurd about haveing an open mind and thinking both sides are rather hard to swallow till i get the hard evdence for either case.
You call it mumbo jumbo, and nonsense?
to me that sounds like your convinced that life started from nothing(much) but just don`t know how?.
Francis collins doesen`t think its absurd either, but then who is he eh.
I cant be bothered to argue this point with you because you have your view and i have mine.
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Has anyone here had a child which has turned out to be gay??
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There seems to be some confusion in this thread as to the age range being targeted by the teaching materials mentioned.
If they are indeed intended for Year 5 or Year 6 pupils that corresponds to ages 9-11 (not 5 or 6 year olds as some seem to mistakenly believe).
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L’Eree lad – apologies, I may be partially responsible for that. I read a little about the ‘No Outsiders’ programme and found material for years 5/6. Upon further investigation I also found material for years 3/4. Neil Inder’s post rightly points out that a year one teacher was present – however I’m uncertain whether that means there is also material for year 1?
Once again my apologies if I have caused some confusion. This partially stems from my inability to read (!!) but also because I have not been able to find any objective analysis of the material on the web. Not only is the website I posted above very disjointed to say the least, but the majority of information on the web is in the form of media articles which are either extremely biased (pro and anti) or don’t say very much at all.
To respond to Neil Inder: There is clearly a lot of confusion about the programme and its implementation in our schools. Much of this I’m sure you agree is down to a lack of information. Unfortunately, a lack of information spawns speculation (something I am guilty of at times) and misinformation.
I therefore think it is time the Education Department gave a public statement providing:
- detailed information about the No Outsiders programme.
- if/when it will be implemented in our schools
- who made that decision
Until we get clear information, it’s probably best to cease speculating.
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L’Eree lad. The full GP article states Year 1. That’s 5/6 year olds.
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Okay bcb I still don’t think you’ve got my central point (religion = absurd, science = not absurd) but I can’t be bothered any more either.
To get back to the matter in hand, I can understand why even some liberal leaning parents like Neil are uncomfortable with “diversity experts” who talk about the “queering” of primary education.
I’m not even a parent and I’m uncomfortable with this myself but perhaps the best way to look on it is as an understandable, if a little extreme, reaction to hundreds of years of extremist religious based teaching against sexual diversity.
At the weekend I was privy to some of the letters being circulated to States members by certain island congregations. On one level I was amused and on another I was shocked. Totally wacko, weirdo fire and brimstone beliefs that I didn’t really appreciate were still active in a cosmopolitan, 21st century community like Guernsey. In fact it reminded me of the fictional god fearing folk in the remote Scottish community from Von Trier’s excellent film Breaking the Waves.
To sum up, perhaps Mr Moffat is too much for Guernsey but at the very least can we have instead the complete removal of all religious education/indoctrination (apart from comparative education) from our local schools?
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@ Paul Le Page
That’s fine by me. Cheers.
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DAVE…….I was referring to just that……different from “Normal”! the term is not great! In regard to your comments you are right people including myself do have the opinion that jane is “coming across” as a homophobe. But theres nothing to worry about i very much doubt that the school system will allow such unacceptable teaching to go on!
bcb…..i was mearly saying if Jane F is so easliy voicing what she percives as unacceptable, your kids tend to follow parental views. I never said her children were bullys.
I was merely think that there seems very little tolorence or support in GYS for gay people. Support being that in life some children do have 1 mummy-1 daddy and very many have 2 mummies and 2 daddies. Kids will just taught that this is normal in todays world.
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To quote the article, …”to give primary school teachers and nurses a workshop…”. So primary is 5 and 6 year olds and nurseries take in children from aged approximately 2 1/2 years. Too young to be taught about sexual deviance.
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Gys overseas
You said you`d like to know which school her kids go to so you can narrow the bullying down.
If your not suggesting they are or will be bully`s why do you want to know which school they go to?
Kids follow parentel views !
What are janes then? i havent read anywhere that she suggests her kids should bully anyone.
She said she finds very young kids being tought this at school “unacceptable” and would deal with it herself.
But you read that as being homophobic and raiseing her kids in a way that they will bully others who are different.
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I am not a windup artist i ment what i said lets not mess with our childrens heads and teach them proper natural couples o yes Mr Moffat i think its time you left our island
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Sarnia Expat:
From what you say of your family life was like mine when I was growing up. your home seems full of love and from the sound of it you are open to what the future may hold for your son.
Blah:
*i hope fate calls your bluff and your son does have a gay partner (and i don’t envy the chilly embrace he gets from you)*
You and I don’t even know Sarnia Expat. We both have read her post to mean differnet things. So who is right? Me or you?
I am not homophobic but am not sure at what age I want my son to learn about same sex relationships/parents.
What I want to know though is where will it end? Are they going to explain about Bisexual relations as well? “Your dad is married to your mum but he likes Mr so and so on the side?”
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gys overseas
Can you even remember what you are angry about anymore through your fog of indignation.
Your arguments are rapidly losing their coherence.
Blah, stop trying to force what you beleive are the right morals onto everyone, yet again we see another parent with valid concerns broadsided by mindnumbing rubbish.
If you and your ilk are the mouthpieces of the “brave new world” then have you stopped to think why some are wary of it??
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Since no one has replied to my questions baout, I’m guessing that no one here has had a child come out as gay. Then, maybe you’re not the right people to discuss it!
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Jon:
? So, only people who have had direct contact with a particular issue are authorised to discuss the issue? What rubbish! This is a perfectly valid debate, by people quite permitted to have an opinion.
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The Barron:
Your childhood was clearly taken up with far too much time learning about ‘proper natural couples’, as your English is appalling!!
I would be quite happy for my child to learn about how to be inclusive as well as how to use correct grammar, as opposed to how to be discriminatory with no command of English grammar whatsoever!
p.s. Guernsey is not ‘our’ island. Every occupant has equal rights – you therefore have no legitimate right to suggest someone leaves ‘our’ island just because they don’t fit your stereotypical mindset.
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The idea of teaching kids about diversity misses the point that children are exposed to the reality of diversity every day. There are plenty of unmarried and divorced parents in the Channel islands, kids learn by osmosis that not everyone has a mummy and a daddy who are married.
As far as gay couples with young kids are concerned, I don’t know any. I know of a few men with older children who decide in their 50s that they are gay and have been living a lie, but I have never met a gay or lesbian couple with a child at primary school.
So I do wonder what the value is in teaching primary school children about “same sex” parents is, if this has no bearing on their day to day lives. Could it not be lumped with masturbation, car maintenance and how to complete a tax return as something that you don’t really need school to prepare you for?
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@truth man – Sometimes the opinions of people how AREN’T directly effected (ie family) can make people feel like 2nd class citizens! This is an open forum. People all over the world can read about how small minded the people of Guernsey are coming across (yes, people reading this WILL think that this is what Gsy is like).
Being Gay myself, I’m so fed up with all the negative press all the time. So I am in a relationship with another man? So what! We’ve been together for 4 years now. Why can’t people just get used to the fact that gay people live on Guernsey. We’re not going away. Why should we?
But I guess I’m living in a dream world. Even if the age of consent is lowered to ‘normal’ people (this comment is the nicest for gay people), then us ‘freaks’ will still have prejudice from the community
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Jon
You aren’t doing yourself any favours here. What you are advocating is segregation. What happened to no outsiders? You know, acceptance and all that!
There are a lot of comments on here regarding the education of children being as that was a major part of the original article. And as children are (mainly) the result of heterosexual relationships, your comment was probably more appertaining to yourself.
However unlike yourself I welcome the input of all the contributions as they give a broad view of publics feelings and thereby a greater understanding.
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Jon:
Your previous comment wasn’t about homophobia, you said that people who have not had a son who has come out are not the right people to be discussing the issue!!
I have not had a son who has come out, but that does not alter the fact that I have an opinion.
As it happens, I favour inclusive practices – and as such I favour anything that does away with misconceptions and pre-conceived prejudices that exclude any group of people. In essence, I support you and your minority group. And, I will ensure my daughter grows up accepting people’s differences. I hope her school does the same.
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I think teaching children about sexual diversity before they get into the second or third year of secondry school is teaching them at to early an age. When they get to that stage in their education it is when their sexual interest are starting.
As for homosexuality not being normal I totaly disagree, homosexuality has been documented ever since humans started recording their history, thousands of years ago. Long before man made god in his image.
I’ve seen homosexuals all my life but I’ve never seen god, so which which one is un-natural?.
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@Sharon, the flying scot wasn’t actually calling anyone a nigger or a wog (lol) but was actually saying what would you do if you heard your children etc etc.
He’s saying that it’s just as bad as calling a gay person a faggot.
Btw, you need to calm down a bit and read stuff before only seeing the naughty words, although it is funny.
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Guess what – it passed – unanimously – and an attempt to maintain discrimination on ‘more than two at once’, or a separate offence of sex in lavatories (already illegal under public order law) lost by 3 to 42…..
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Well said Jane F, all these gay people are just angry ’cause they can’t preach on 16 y/olds.
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GG:
What do you mean? I’m not sure your post makes sense.
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There was a piece in today’s press about school children learning about India; eating Indian food, wearing traditional dress and learning a traditional dance.
Did anyone have a problem with that?
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