Opinions mixed on method and fairness of Town paid-parking
Wednesday 7th January 2009, 2:29PM GMT.
Former States Traffic Committee President John Laine, along with other motorists parking at the North Beach yesterday, was asked about his view on paid parking: ‘I think we should have it. Where else are you going to get the money to pay for major traffic initiatives and services such as the buses? You have to pay somehow. I was on the Traffic Committee when paid parking first came around.’ (Picture by Steve Sarre, 0698055)
THE chairman of the Chamber of Commerce retail sub-committee fears that paid parking in Town could be unfair on workers.
Tony Creasey’s comments were made after the Chamber’s president, Paul Luxon, said he agreed with the concept of paid parking and would favour whichever method of payment – lump sums or hourly charges – would be most cost effective.
‘What we are worried about is that the costs of the island’s transport system would be passed on to people who work in Town rather than elsewhere and perhaps be a bit discriminatory,’ said Mr Creasey.
It could also target lower earners, he said.
‘The burden could fall on the less well paid or those in less senior jobs who do not have parking provided for them by their employers,’ he said, but added that he had not had a chance to analyse the latest news about payment methods so could not comment further at present.
Mr Luxton said that paid parking should be intended to encourage islanders to use public transport, not to deter them from parking.
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Beginning of the end here come the wheelclampers!
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The fairest way forwards is to drop the whole pathetic idea altogether and get the Guernsey Bus company to charge a rate that reflects the true cost of running their company so that it can wash its own face.
I’m sick of being penalised for loss makers.
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There are TOO MANY CARS on the island! What’s wrong with using public transport whenever possible, far less stress? It must be bedlam on the roads there these days.
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No Paul, the fairest way forwards is to charge private vehicle owners the true cost of maintaining the infrastructure they rely on. I’m sick of subsidising a society that believes that the world revolves around the needs of individuals and not the community.
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On another stream Fast Robert scoffs at the idea that people need to use cars rather than the bus because they have schoolchildren to drop off / pick up.
I invite all commuters to make a mental note of the traffic volume on their way to work on Friday morning against traffic on the same route next Monday when I believe the schools go back.
Something definitely happens to traffic on school days !
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Fast Robert is right that road users should pay for the road infrastructure. Far more could be raised from extra “road tax” built into petrol duty at the pumps. Very simple – the user pays. Likewise money to be raised from paid parking.
The extra revenue raised could be be used to keep subsidising the bus service to make it even more popular, which in due course gets people out of their cars onto the buses.
Before anybody whinges about tax on petrol, our prices here are still much cheaper than in the UK due to lower taxes. Its a perfect tax generator for Guernsey, as a is tax on alcohol and cigarettes. If people are happy to pay it then the Treasury coffers increase. If they reduce usage or consumption then there are health and environmental benefits. A real win-win situation.
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Fast Robert if you care to look at the States website in the facts and figure booklet you will see that in 2007 Automobile tax contributed £4.385 million to the Treasury. It would appear we are already paying for the infrastructure.
Margaret I am sure more people would use public transport if it was pratical. It would take me, according to the bus company’s route planner 2 hours and 3 minutes to get to work and 56 minutes to get home (excluding time taken walking to bus stops). Total round journey approximately 10 miles, total time approximately 3 hours and I would arrive over an hour late for work.
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I’m not sure that “fairness” should be the sole criterion for charging for use of the publicly owned roads and parking places.
However, if that’s Paul’s view, he should be advocating full payment of the costs of maintaining the the aforesaid public property (with a proper addition for the capital costs)by those who are using them. If that policy were to be put in place, I think Paul would be squealing even louder about the cost to his pocket.
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Tim it is clear from the facts you give that the bus service to your part of the island is very poor. This is exactly why the revenue stream from paid parking is needed in order to fund vital improvements in the service. It is alas a chicken and egg situation.
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David
I can’t work out which side of the fence you are on.
In your first paragraph you write.. ‘Very simple -the user pays’
You then demolish that statement in the next paragraph by suggesting that ‘The extra revenue raised ( from paid parking )could be used to keep subsidising the bus service.’
So the user pays is OK for car owners but not for bus users ?
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Why not take a different view of the traffic/parking issue altogether. Provide NO long term parking at all and exercise zero tolerance with short term parking.
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Peter I would disagree that the bus service in my part of the island is poor. If I worked in St Peter Port it would be fine, unfortunately I don’t. So its two bus journeys to get to work hence the long journey time as there is a 30 minute wait to change buses. It is probably the same for most of the island, have you tried getting from say the Bella Luce to the airport? As regards to the income stream from paid parking if this was as successful as you would hope then the need for parking would be greatly reduced and as a consequence so would the income stream. An interesting conudrum!
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Tim
It would mean more people on the buses so increased revenue. The hope would be that when there is massive demand for a service then charges could be incremented as the service would be obviously more complicated. By thattime the service would be accepted as a first choice for everyday journeys. No one is suggesting removing private vehicles; there can never be a service that operates at an individuals whim or emergency, it’s just that for frequently taken movements down the same roads at the same time by a large number of people then it makes complete sense to have an efficient, well funded and respected bus service.
Ray
It’s called social responsibility. Something that Guernsey sadly lacks, from the top down.
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Tim,
I really must shut up about this having had my say in the Press. Before I do a brief response to your last posting. Of course you are quite right that travelling across the island is far harder than getting into and out of town. {unless its using the excellent 7/7A service around the coast}. I suspect that is one reason that the paid parking proposal was limited to long stay car parks in town, although ironically in your example[the airport] paid parking has long existed.
As for the loss of revenue if people switch from comuting by car to using the bus you have a point but we need to be realistic. The chances of, say, 50% of town workers making this switch any time soon is remote indeed. If they did it would be a great funding problem to have – a bit like the loss of tobacco duty if no one were to smoke. In reality the trend will be more modest but that is all that is needed to tackle congestion. Roads have a natural capacity. If traffic is at 90% lof that capacity they work well but at 110% of capacity long delays occur. So just a modest switch would help a lot. It could also mean they could release a few long term car parking spaces for short term use by shoppers helping businesses in town. If the charges need to go up by 20% from a modest starting point to compensate for fewer long term parkers then they may have to be considered.
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So im going to have to pay to park my car to get to work, while my managers and directors get a parking space at work for free and a much higher wage then me!
Talk about unfair on the lower earners. I wont be able to afford to go to work!
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The entrenched view in Guernsey that driving should, by rights, be a cheap form of travel is partly as a result of always having had free and abundant parking. Guernsey as a consequence has paid dearly for that policy.
Driving, although sometimes necessary, should be easily seen as the expensive option which would cause us all to try harder to leave the car at home and use the alternatives. Paid parking could be just one of the ways that we achieve that while at the same time raising cash to make sure that the bus service is frequent and accessible enough to be a viable ‘alternative’.
A cheap and effective bus service would enable many of the less well off to reduce their costs by not having to rely on running a car.
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The administration costs involved with running the paid parking scheme and enforcement of people not paying their fines will leave nothing in the pot for any other schemes. It will be a bureaucrat’s dream; just perfect for the States in that case!
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Gsygal – exactly, and not just you, think of the guys on minimum wage in shops! Paid parking alone cannot be an equitable solution. Before turning to the student life, I was one of those managers in finance, and driving into town on a Saturday to go shopping, or even for a friday night out, I’d leave my car in the safety of my private parking space.
I advocate a ‘paid-parking equivalent’ tax on town-based employee parking. If it’s about reducing congestion and saving the environment then surely the private spaces are equally accountable?
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GsyGal and Student Bob – why have I as a taxpayer had to pay to provide you with a free parking space in Town ? How is it any fairer that I have to pay for something you use and i don’t, rather than you paying for it ?
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Oh come on.
In the UK millions of people everyday drive to work and pay to park – and I bet a great deal of them are on a much lower wage than the less paid Guernsey citizens.
You can’t just take take take and expect not to give anything in return.
Don’t like it? Then take the bus… don’t like that? You need a lesson in compromise.
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In england, office parking is a taxable perk…. no reason why it shouldn’t be here too.
We need initiatives to discourage car use. We need funding for the buses to provide cheap and viable travel options for everyone.
Paid parking is just one of the ways we can achieve both aims provided that the charge is based on use and not just as an annual charge.
An annual charge would totally fail to act as a deterrent to driving. Having paid the annual charge, the temptation then would be to get value for your money and drive in as often as possible to use the car space you have paid for. It would positively encourage people to use their cars more.
An annual charge would simply be another tax that every car owner would have to pay irrespective of how much they try to reduce their car use.
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er Rett. I pay my taxes aswel thank you. Therefore if you take that view, im already paying for it. You wouldnt walk into a shop and pay for a loaf of bread twice, why should We have to pay for a parking space twice.
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Rett – I’m a student. Your taxes pay my mortgage. And for my car, food, booze etc….
I welcome the introduction of paid parking. My hope is that it is done equitably so that those with employee parking contribute too. It IS about congestion isn’t it?
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Rosie – you make a good point. If paid parking is an annual charge, the temptation will be to get value for money.
If paid parking were introduced, a company parking space would be a perk, so perhaps taxing that wouldn’t be a bad idea (from someone who has one!).
A point to consider however is that I believe new office developments have to include underground parking in their design…perhaps someone in the know could confirm that?
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N – you also make a good point. In certain areas (parking and the whole motor issue being one) Guernsey has on the whole had things easy in comparison to the UK and other jurisdictions. It would appear the tide has turned….
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I WOULD NOT MIND PAYING TO PARK, BUT AS LONG AS THEY CHARGE OUR POOR DEPUTIES TO PAY FOR LUKIS HOUSE, ALSO THE HOSPITAL, AND FROSSARD HOUSE, AND ANY OTHER FREE PARKING CIVIL SERVANTS GET..
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GsyGal – I see your point, so I’ll put it to you another way …
At the moment you pay for part of YOUR parking space and I am forced to pay for part of YOUR parking space as well, even though I do not need or use it. You however do not pay a penny towards my parking space at work.
If paid parking were introduced, only those who used the car parks would have to pay for them.
Besides, driving your car to town and parking it is NOT ESSENTIAL. Convenient yes, but not essential. Last year my car was off the road for 3 weeks being repaired, and yet I and my wife still managed to get to work and back every day, the kids still got to school and back every day, I still managed to go to the shops and buy food. I managed this by walking and using the bus. I will freely admit that it is a lot easier to just jump into the car when I want to go somewhere, but it is not essential, it never has been, and it never will be.
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It was fortunate for car users in Guernsey that the increase in car ownership followed the falling into disuse for their original purpose of the town piers and quays. It was easy for, the relatively few, drivers in the 1950s and 1960s to find publicly owned spaces around town to leave their cars. Further, since the owners were mostly those with the strongest political voices there was little effective objection at that time.
As a result, we have come to assume that, in spite of the huge increase in car ownership and use, we are somehow entitled to a free place to store our cars. For the individual it is almost always going to be preferable to use his/her car but life would be much more pleasant for the community at large if car use was reduced.
Charging the economic rate for car storage in public places and using the income produced to fund a really good 21st century public transport system seems like a good idea to me. (The economic rate for parking, by the way, is more likely to be 150p per hour than 15p.)
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I recently got the bus from Vazon into town (for the first time ages). This involved a fifteen minute walk in the rain to the nearest bus stop and then standing on the coast road for nearly an hour in a howling gale.
I had to make special arrangements for a friend to drive the kids to school (because, ironically, it is too dangerous for them to cycle because of all stressed out Mums racing around in Porche Cayennes).
The bus driver was polite and helpul and the journey was comfortable enough (although not for the people on the latter part of the journey who had to stand). It still seemed to take a lot longer than a car journey though.
Basically, I think that most of us value the convenience and comfort of our own cars and we are all pretty lazy when it comes down to it. There is no way we are ever going to be coaxed onto public transport – even if we are penalised through parking charges.
I don’t like the idea of paid parking but unless the States learns to control it’s spending (and pigs learn to fly) then they are going to need to raise money somehow. Paid parking is about as fair a means of raising revenue as any – certainly better than GST.
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As CD says most of us value the comfort and convenience of having our own transport. Paid parking may encourage a few people on to public transport in the short term but I suspect many will continue to use their cars. School runs are a catch 22 on Guernsey. It is in many cases too dangerous to allow young children to cycle or walk because of the volume of traffic, so one adds to the problem by driving ones children to school to keep them safe. Paid parking is hardly likely to tempt someone on to the bus if they have to drop off young children with assorted bags, lunch boxes and a variety of other kit at school, before work, pick them up again after work and drive home via the supermarket to collect a weeks shopping.
OK so my mother had to use the bus when I was a child, but she didn’t have a car. I do, paid parking is unlikely to encourage me to leave it in the drive.
As a means of generating income paid parking is likely to be of limited value. Has anyone actually presented the figures as to what income would be left over after administration costs on any of the proposed charges?
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Interesting first sentence from Catherine: “..most of us value the comfort and convenience..”
No, what we enjoy is the relative cheapness of running private vehicles in Guernsey. If we were to put a ‘value’ on comfort and convenience then it would be a lot higher than what we have to pay now.
What we are wanting is a free pass to do what we like with no thought to the wider consequences.
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Lets face it the bus service is rubbish unless you are either unemployed or a pensioner and have all day to hang about waiting for them not to mention an understanding boss who doesn’t mind you being late everyday. Times have changed people have to perform multiple tasks before /after work its just not practical for most people to travel by bus. As for paid parking we all know that the lowest paid will end up paying for it as the big earners all have parking provided by their company. As for the eco warriors -the planet has been heating up and cooling down since time began and we little insects will play only a small part in the changes.
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“paid parking is unlikely to encourage me to leave it in the drive.”
“As a means of generating income paid parking is likely to be of limited value”
These statements are a little contradictory.
Like most people the parking charge would have to be pretty swinging before it made me leave my car at home. However if paid parking were to result in an a frequent, comprehensive and comfortable bus service it would certainly sugar the pill for me.
To make this strategy work, the charges must be high enough to fund the sort of public transport people will be happy to use – no standing around in howling gales, for example. Nevertheless, one concession is going to be essential for the strategy to be accepted; the first hour’s parking will have to be free if the shopkeepers are to come on board.
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TQ
I took the bus for years from the west coast before I moved nearer town. I was never late. Blown about by gales and soaked to the skin, maybe, but not late. A few shelters along the coast would not go amiss. A perfect first investment from paid parking revenue. Instant impact to show the public what can be done.
“As for the eco warriors -the planet has been heating up and cooling down since time began and we little insects will play only a small part in the changes.”
I’m not sure what part of the basic science that releasing millenia upon millenia of fixed carbon into the atmosphere is going to have an adverse effect on the natural cycles that people fail to understand.
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Rett: i assume that involved a bus? having checked my local bus routes, first id have to walk atleast 10 mins to a bus stop, then get there to find, from the 3 bus stops near me, the earliest i could get to town would be 10am. I start work at 9am. I hate having to use my car for work, the stress of finding somewhere to park is bad enough. But i have no choice, unless i walk the 2 hours into town.
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Fast Robert
I was actually trying to make the point that I would be willing to pay for the comfort and convenience of my own transport. I used to live in England and readily paid the much higher cost of running a car.
Ted
Why is it contradictory that paid parking as a means of generating income has limited value. If the aim of paid parking is to discourage us from using our cars then the more successful it is the less income it generates. If the aim is to generate income then it has to make a profit. Do paid parking schemes make a profit?
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paid-parking works everywhere i have been in europe, why should guernsey be different? and the amount per hour being suggested is not exactly a lot of money. £5-£10 per week for the convenience of a parking space to work in town is not going to break anyones bank. Guerns just don;t like change or having to put their hands in their pockets.
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Nik
You say paid parking works wherever you have been in Europe. When you say ‘works’ do you just mean it is a fact of life,in terms of it being the accepted norm,or do you mean that it has been successful in getting people out of their cars and onto the bus?
Roffey lowered the proposed charge to 15p per hour in a last minute back of a fag packet amendment in order to get it through ,having seen previous higher value attempts thrown out after proper debate( That’s the danger of off the hoof legislation )
How long do you think the 15p per hour charge would last before it would need to be doubled or trebled in order to pay the dozen extra wardens needed to Police paid parking?
Still, if it saves half a Polar Bear it will have all been worth it !
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No comments on paid parking for the last six days !
Has it finally gone away for good ??????
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Is it actually stated anywhere, what the specific objective of introducing paid parking is ?
I can not think of any reason to introduce paid parking that an increase in fuel duty wouldn’t be a better option for.
or …
just remove the parking spaces.
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Jamie
The specific objective is obviously to introduce yet another stealth tax to help fill our darkening grey hole.
Paid parking in Jersey has not stopped their morning and evening traffic congestion despite the current charge of 56p per unit ( That puts our dishonest 15p proposal into context )
Using the Jersey system as an example 56p would buy you one hour on the Crown Pier or 30 minutes in Church Square.If you need to park in the long term areas you just display as many 56p units on the dashboard as required, which suits the rich people nicely thank you.
Any profits made in Jersey after paying the wages of a mini army of parking controllers is used to maintain their multi storey car parks.
For goodness sake will somebody from Guernsey Environment nip down to Jersey on a fact finding mission or come out in the open and finally admit that paid parking is indeed just a handy cash cow to bash the evil motorist with.
If so then your ‘add it to the fuel tax’ suggestion would fit the bill perfectly.
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Whining motorists are a scourge on intelligence. Sorry guys, pay your way. Too long have private vehicle owners been mollycoddled by vested interests in power. Your time has gone and now you need to cough up.
Adressing the valid argument in the letters pages today, make private and States workers’ parking a taxable perk. If they don’t want a reduction in their salary, don’t drive.
It ain’t rocket science.
Otherwise why aren’t you moaning that the elctricity to power your computer isn’t free? Or the water from your taps?
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Fast Robert
I had a little chat with my Doctor about you the other day ( No names given of course )
He reckoned a three week course of the Daily Mail,with repeat doses as and when required,would bring you back from the abyss.
By the way, when you were on the West coast bus in your youth did you get to meet Cobo Alice ?
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Ray
Mock not.
If Landsbanki depositors had read the Daily Mail in March / April 2008 they would have removed their deposits and saved themselves the current problems.
Perhaps your doctor is an LG client and this is his twisted way of getting at the Mail because he didn’t heed their warnings. (LOL)
By the way did he charge you for two consultations. One for you and one for FR(LOL)
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all a load of balloney. most of the people who are for paid parking dont drive or are taken off the roads…….they have to suffer so why shouldnt we..(according to them)….we’ll we shouldnt suffer because we havent been disqualified and if as has been mentioend we dont mind paying more for the comfort and convenience of our own cars then why shouldn;t we….????.
i doubt if fast robert met cobo alice he woulda been friendly as he hates the island lolo
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