Wanted: bright young things
Saturday 17th January 2009, 9:29AM GMT.
GUERNSEY needs to attract more high-earning young people to continue to prosper.
Social Security minister Mark Dorey (pictured) told yesterday’s Institute of Directors lunchtime debate that the island needed an immigration policy so that it could bring in people who were able to contribute.
‘At the moment, Guernsey brings in a lot of people on low wage jobs,’ he said. ‘If instead we brought in young people on higher wage jobs, it would immediately change the island’s situation.
‘It might end up that we need to refuse to let some people come back to the island who were born here but have lived away for many years.’
Deputy Dorey was one of the panel members answering the question: Is Guernsey sitting on a demographic time bomb?
He was joined by former deputy Chris Brock, executive director of benchmarking company Island Analysis, and Paul Cutter, managing director of Nordben Life and Pension Insurance Company.
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Refuse people who were born here; how about IQ testing all politicians before they are allowed to stand.
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Disgusting and unrealistic. If Deputy Dorey is in a position to say that the islands children should be not allowed to return to their island when they can afford it, then he needs a reality check.
I would propose that, most of the time, where the young are forced off the island it is because they cannot afford to live there – on rent or mortgage. For this, they need more pay.
This statement is also unrealistic. Does Deputy Dorey imagine that by issuing a call for employers to create more highly paid jobs that these jobs will just appear. Surely he understands that any outgoings must be matched by appropriate income. Also, for example, how about restrictive policies such as the State’s staff number limitation policy.
How about Deputy Dorey forgoes his wage in order to let one ‘bright young thing’ be classed a ‘high earner’. He could also offer up any land he owns to be used to create inexpensive accomodation for those ‘bright young things’ that are unable to get on that first rung of the property ladder’. Any savings he has can be used as grants to allow ‘bright young things’ to pay the deposit for a mortgage. Isn’t he a philanthropist?
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Regarding the comment by Deputy Dorey that we may have to refuse people born here the right to return, there must be a fundamental issue here with a person’s state. A person is born in a certain place, grows up there and has a natural attachment. There is the overarching idea of belonging. People have to belong somewhere even if they left it years ago. They can’t become stateless. Human Rights Article 13(2) refers.
A lot of young Guernsey people go away because they want a wider career, want to see the world, want to gain experience. We should be proud of the fact that they do that from an Island background. Many return with valuable skills. Even for those that don’t we can’t just cut them off from their birthplace for economic reasons.
I understand the need for a strong economy, the need for skilled workers and the need to import some of these. I know that prosperity provides schools, hospitals etc (but I am becoming rather tired of seeing this, actually simplistic and obvious, argument being rolled out time and time again; it is becoming insulting to the intellect of Islanders).
We have to manage Guernsey as a society of people not just an economy, and perhaps the balance has not been ideal over the last few decades. People are not just workers and taxpayers but actual human beings with a culture. We cannot become simply a marketplace for human resources.
Those involved with the economy need to accept responsibility for the whole picture not just for the pound notes. Some deeper sociological thinking is required, not just the simple economic model of jobs, schools and hospitals. Good luck to those involved!
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is he saying that low wage earners do not contribute,if they lower the maximum tax cap that some deputys are talking about to 100,000 the lower earners will be the only ones left paying tax.r
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I agree with refusing right to return if been contributing a substantial amount of your earnings to a foreign exchequer. There are many people who have left Guernsey in their, say, 20s, lived in England, brought up a family and then decide to come and retire back in their ‘home’.
Just because you name starts with ‘Le’, doesn’t mean you should be allowed back to be a burden on our island in you twilight years.
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If the cost of housing were lower, perhaps us bright young things might think about sticking around rather than moving away to somewhere we can get a toe on the property ladder and not waste our salary on extortionate rent.
If the average house price in Guernsey is indeed 400,000 then maybe with a few years hard saving I might be able to afford a shed. That is if Deputy Dorey actually allows me to return to my place of birth and home for over 24 years.
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Deputy Dorey clearly needs to think his comments through more carefully. Guernsey may well bring in a number of low paid workers, however, unless the authorities are being lax, all of these workers contribute to the island economy by paying taxes, buying food, petrol for their cars etc etc.
I wonder how many low paid workers were relied upon to ensure the smooth delivery of the IOD lunchtime debate.
Get a grip Mr Dorey, what this island needs is a balanced approach with policies based on the whole picture not just on a polarised view of a small section of the working population. Creating an island full of high earners will not fulfil the islands future economic needs unless of course Mr Dorey intends to propose a higher rate of income tax and social insurance contributions for these high earners.
Mr Doreys’ ideas would sow the seeds for a divided society (if it’s not growing already) and also probably increase house prices and other goods and services costs (greater ability to pay will inflate prices)
Maybe the States should be looking to create and encourage some homegrown high earning professionals wth an attchment to this island who will make a long term contribution to the economy not transient people who will come and go in 5 years.
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Is it not the case that those such as highly paid corporate bankers assisted in getting the world into financial recession?
We know they are self interested but that doesn’t mean that they would have Guernsey’s best interests at heart.
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I agree with Greg R and Colin. The more “high earners” (doing what exactly?) you invite in, with disproportionate taxbreaks and the ability to hide wealth behind opaque finacial instruments, the more low paid ‘servants’ you need to service them. It is a morally defunct argument.
What we need is committed people, they tend to be ‘locals’, that want the island to survive based on age old principals of community spirit. Of course ‘community sprirt’ doesn’t pay for large capital expenditure, but the balance between incentivising foreign businesses and supporting local people needs constant attention.
This sort of statement highlights that Guernsey folk are just not good enough and that we need the type of people that love to earn cash but love little else.
I think Guernsey needs to seriously reassess its ambitions.
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I’m all in favour of controlled and targeted growth of our economy for the short, medium and long term, but there is something inherently wrong about denying genuine Guernsey locals the right to return to their island whether that’s at 21, 40 or even 75. I also cannot see how there is any way the States would succeed in defending such a policy in the European Court of Human Rights.
There are elements of Deputy Dorey’s ideas which potentially have some merit, but that part of it most certainly does not.
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Valdubon:- “We have to manage Guernsey as a society of people not just an economy, and perhaps the balance has not been ideal over the last few decades. People are not just workers and taxpayers but actual human beings with a culture. We cannot become simply a marketplace for human resources.”
I agree with you entirely. Well said!
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I hope that Mark Dorey reads and takes on board some of the excellent points made by previous posters.
You never know, pigs might fly.
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The other major point of Deputy Dorey’s statement is to adjust the immigration law to allow more people into the island.
Is it not blatently clear that if this is done then house prices will go up due to increased demand, the house market will saturate and there will be adverse affects on those who cannot afford these inflated prices?
For certain, those ‘bright young things’ who have been renting at £850/month, (near enough a mortgage), will realise that they are never going to get on the property ladder and leave for somewhere where they can afford.
Will we see people becoming unable to afford they mortgage repayments?
How long before seeing homeless people on the streets of St Peter Port is commonplace?
Yes, I believe bringing in more highly paid people will definately ‘immediately change the island’s situation’.
Also, it is unquestioned that these imported highly paid workers will be bankers. What happens when they make the mistakes made by those instigating the credit crunch? They will get out as quickly as they came in of course.
What Guernsey really needs is diversification of its economy so that all its money is not solely tied to the Finance industry.
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Thats right – lets attract more foreign workers into the island what we cant even look after our own youngsters…
Mr Dorey – I suggest we actually bother to look after our own local youngsters before we even consider inviting all & sundry to come in…
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Yet more foriegner to be imported on to this little rock. Well there are not many Guernsey dokeys left now. let’s just finsh the breed off once and for all.
Doesn’t the cockoo do something simlier ?.
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How about re-considering the current proposition for education funding in 2010, the island lacks ‘young bright things’ due to the fact that not many people can afford the university tuition fee’s that can reach up to £12,000 per annum. The states members are ridiculous for even considering such as thing.
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‘It might end up that we need to refuse to let some people come back to the island who were born here but have lived away for many years.’
Having been born in and spending the first 24 year of my life in Guernsey before moving to the UK, I find it rather disturbing that I may one day find myself barred from returning to the place of my birth.
That said, periodically monitoring this website has enabled me to keep up with some of the more hilarious/frightening (delete as appropriate) events occurring on our idyllic isle over the past 3 years. These news stories, coupled with some of the more illiberal readers’ comments, have convinced me that leaving was one of the best decisions I ever made, and that being barred from returning to my place of birth will be of little consequence to me anyway.
That said, it would be nice to be left with the choice – the seafood is second to none.
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Mark Dorey’s comments are strongly reminiscent of Stuart Falla’s, made during the zero-10 public meetings. Deputy Falla made no bones about it: local people on low wages or salaries should leave the island to make way for more worthwhile high-earners.
That is the kind of nonsense politics that easily emerges if you start taking seriously people who talk about ‘Guernsey plc’.
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So by bright young things, he doesnt mean guernsey kids then? Well to be honest, by the time most people have done A levels, and Uni they are about 25, no that young. Then have to think about, *SHOCK HORROR* actually working! just because you have a PHD doesnt mean your garenteed a job, Guernsey should focus on giving young people at work more training to progress rather then import people. Who most the time, send the money back to there countries anyway instead of contributing to our local economy.
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I am not quite sure what Mark Dorey is getting at when he says that:
‘At the moment, Guernsey brings in a lot of people on low wage jobs,’ … ‘If instead we brought in young people on higher wage jobs, it would immediately change the island’s situation.
‘It might end up that we need to refuse to let some people come back to the island who were born here but have lived away for many years.’
Surely it makes no difference whether immigrant workers are low paid or highly skilled – they can only live here as long as their licence permits at which point they must leave – so any rise in the population caused by immigrant workers is only temporary…
… or is Mr Dorey suggesting that the licensing system be changed to allow higher skilled workers to settle here permanently? That, in my opinion, would be a big mistake.
We live on a 25 square mile rock with an antiquated infrastructure and we have no choice but to impose limits on the number of people who live here – otherwise our roads would be log-jammed, our sewers overflowing and our house prices even higher than they are now.
I agree that we do need immigrant workers to sustain our economy and I also agree that those individuals can provide valuable skills. However, one should remember that the contribution that immigrant workers make to the island economy is only temporary – it ceases the moment they eventually leave the island (as does their impact on population numbers). If we don’t mess with the licensing system that will remain the case.
I think the States needs to make a distinction between the debate on the economy and the debate on future demographics. The two are obviously related but – regardless of the success or otherwise of our economy, for us Guerns this island is our home and we need to protect it and ensure we leave a decent place to live for our children and grandchildren.
As for locals returning to the island after living elsewhere – if we expect immigrant workers to be able to return ‘home’ when they leave Guernsey then surely we must allow expat Guerns to return here.
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There are many countries where there is a demographic timebomb and Guernsey is no different.
People are living longer and are not having as many children as was the case in previous generations.
I was born in Guernsey and as it happens have spent all of my 39 years in the island. But that is irrelevant, I consider Guernsey to be my home irrespective of whether I had lived away for many years and if I could afford to return then I have the right under the Human Rights Act to do so.
I would also consider Guernsey to be the home of my children whether they were educated here until 10 or spent a certain number of years here.
I think it’s against my children’s Human Rights to put any form of test on whether they should be considered local. They are my children and unless they choose otherwise they will be local.
Should they consider the mainland as their home if they spent time in other parts of the world….No!
As for Mr Dorey, claiming that the island needs young high earners. Any strong economy needs a workforce that includes those willing to do lower paid jobs, jobs in the trades and service industries.
With such low employment, Guernsey needs workers from outside to fulfil all types of positions. What it doesn’t need especially now, is more office workers unless these people are going to start new business and the skills required can be meet by the existing workforce, otherwise we will need more outsiders.
One thing for sure is that when the job market changes in the coming months, which it will, priority is given to employing the local workforce (and that doesn’t mean a true Guernsey person).
The bottom line these comments are merely made to make people think how we are going to pay for an aging populations pension.
Well Mr Dorey, as for as I an concerned my social security contributions are just another tax. So keep your money, what will the pension payments pay when I retire irrespective of how much we pay in.
I’ll look after myself and if that means living somewhere cheaper then that what I will do….but I won’t complain about it and expect others to pay to keep me.
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I always thought that if the elected didn’t suit the electorate that the electorate could change the elected at the next election. That’s called democracy.
Now it seems that some of the elected want to change to a new system whereby if the elected don’t like the electorate they can drive them off and change the electorate.
Yes indeed Guernsey could be a frontrunner in a new style of politics, we could have a competition to find a name for it, the winner receiving lifetime citizenship on the island of their birth. May I suggest the name of ‘Stupocracy’.
As a footnote I would remind todays politicians that need it that they have been elected to do a job which is in the main to work for the best interests of the people of Guernsey today. (And that was people not buisinesses). And not to try to build a utopia for people that did not elect them.
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Bright young things are savvy enough to assess where to put their money, maybe there’s another Landsbanki-Guernsey around to encourage investment in Guernsey.
Dream on.
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Well said! Dan Lobster. A weeks holiday on the island for sentimental reasons made me realise exactly where I belonged. AUSTRALIA. We also have excellent seafood and a lifestyle second to none.
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This won’t happen in my lifetime. Guernsey is a nation-state and the Human Rights Act is very clear on this; a person has a right to residence in their nation-state and exile is illegal.
Effectively kicking out the children of our island to make room for English immigrant ‘high fliers’ sounds more like nineteenth century imperialism and colonisation.
It is also a classic example of a politician putting the finance industry before the people of this island. Unless the people of Guernsey benefit from the finance industry, it has no purpose being here and perhaps we should already be watching our backs to ensure the job creation continues to be for our benefit and that it won’t become an industry increasingly exclusive to immigrants. If we are not vigilant against this, there could come a time when they outnumber local people and vote for their interests rather than the people of the nation-state of Guernsey.
Should we ever find ourselves in such a situation that our people are not allowed home, it will lead first to the European court. If unsuccessful, it might even lead to conflict.
A stable finance industry could not last without a stable political system and if fellow Guernseymen are denied their birthright, I am sure we will deny the finance industry its stability.
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I am slightly concerned that the States of Deliberation will try and pass any bad immigration laws that include Dorey’s proposal prior to the next election. It will be important at any by-elections to ensure only those opposed to these ideas wins and it’s vital that we all vote.
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Steven – great post.
Seems we didn’t get a bright young thing to head up Social Security then.
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I’d have thought that shipping in a load of ‘bright young high-earners’ would only perpetuate the cycle that has lead to them being required in the first place. I dread to thing where this will end up….!! Can’t we have a back-to-basics immigration policy that returns Guernsey to the Guerns? Surely the local demographic can support the diversity of industry on the island?
I fear that Mr Dorey is referring to stocking up on accountants and fund managers and I’m not convinced that we need to be putting more eggs into the finance industry basket.
This reminds me of a Douglas Adam’s tale of a society that removed its working classes, the hair-dressers and telephone sanitisers, only to succumb several months later to a disease contracted from a dirty telephone.
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More good posts from StudentBob, Steven and Andrew in particular.
If Student Bob is right about accountants and fund managers perhaps Mark Dorey and his pals should take a hard look at why Guernsey is ot generating these people itself.
The Training Agency or whatever it is called these days, always boosts of producing what is needed. They have had well over a decade of offering high level, what they refer to as specific to the needs of Guernsey financial courses.
Seems they are not as competent as they would like their taxpayer benefactors to believe.
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A few posts about Human Rights. Surprisingly enough I can’t see Article 13(2) about right of return to own country on the Guernsey version. Have I missed something or should we be asking embarrassing questions of our government?
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Well said, deputy Dorey. It’s about time jobs were allocated on merit rather than place of birth!
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I applaud you Deputy Dorey! It is a very logical idea and a good move for the economy.
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While on the topic…..how about bringing in some bright entrepreneurs to generate jobs in other areas- especially in the area of reusable energies.
Incentive schemes for companies to take on more on-island graduates for trainee and apprentice positions wouldnt be a bad idea either.
Incentive schemes for a company to take on and train long-term unemployed persons.
Sponsoring high achieving graduates to attend university on the proviso that they will use their acquired skills/knowledge by working in Guernsey post-grad for a specified time.
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GUERNSEY needs to encourage young people to create new enterprises, supporting those with demonstrated ability to ‘lead’ (not just manage) and build sustainable business’s, not reliant on the finance industry.
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