‘Why are our children in cold huts if there’s so much room?’
Wednesday 21st January 2009, 11:30AM GMT.
A heated exchange took place last night between the Education Department and those opposing its decision to recommend the closure of St Sampson’s Infants.
PTA chairman Christine Guilbert put forward a case objecting to the school’s closure and members of the public took part in a question and answer session with the Education board, led by Deputy Carol Steere.
‘We strongly believe that the quality of our children’s education will be compromised by the proposed plans,’ said Mrs Guilbert.
She questioned whether the move had been properly thought out.
‘If there are empty spaces to accommodate our children at Vale Infant School we question why our children are possibly being put in huts, or why additional building is being required to remodel and refurbish the Vale School. Surely huts are not the way forward in Guernsey, especially when we have the excellent facilities of this school,’ she said.
Deputy Steere assured the assembly that a great deal of consideration was behind the report her department presented to the States and claimed that she had received no complaints about using huts as classrooms.
This was met by comments from the teachers present, who described the huts as utterly unsuitable.
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Where is the argument for closing this school (other than a purely emotional response from parents of children there)? Surely in the current climate, the island desperately needs to be ruthless in identifying where costs can be saved and this one is a no-brainer.
The school only accommodates children at infant level so all of those children have to be moved on elsewhere and integrate into a new school with new systems and already established peer groups anyway. The so called ‘extra’ traffic volume around Vale school/Cappelles is only what would be diverted to the receiving junior school when the children leave St Sampsons. It is incredibly sad that this may be the final outcome but people really need to realise that the children will receive just as good an education at the other schools (that they would be moving to at junior level anyway)and that rationalisation needs to start somewhere.
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“Deputy Steere assured the assembly that a great deal of consideration was behind the report her department presented to the States and claimed that she had received no complaints about using huts as classrooms”
If this is a correct quote then it is time Mrs Steere resigned.
Perhaps it is time the Guernsey Press asked the Director of Education if the civil servants at Education support this comment of Mrs Steere.
Seems like Bernard Floquet is not the only foot in the mouth merchant in the Policy Council.
The recent gaffes from Policy Coucil members are beginning to make the UK government look prtty respectable.
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Deputy Steere is increasingly looking well out of her depth. Some people I know questioned her capability for this role when she was appointed. They have been proved right. She does not seem to have either the required understanding of Education or the basic political skills to be Education Minister. Or, as per my posting on another thread yesterday, is she being let down by her civil servants ? How many absurd gaffes is is possible to make and get away with ?
If huts are deemed acceptable then its no wonder that the buffoons at Education don’t consider there to be much wrong with the state of Les Beaucamps !
One word keeps cropping up….accountability (or rather the lack of it).
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We have never questioned the fact our children will receive a good education at the Vale school. Our concerns are about them being disrupted, by moving to Vale infants for one year, during their Key Stage 1 education, and then to Vale juniors the following year.
Furthermore, our children currently have the benefit of being educated in purpose built classrooms, and they have access to all the resources required. We do not understand why they may be educated in ‘huts’ at Vale school, when we already have a full range of excellent facilites.
Should this recommendation be passed, the present reception and year one children will also lose out on the responsibility opportunities that come with having a new reception class next year.
The school also has strong links with St Sampson’s church and Jubilee House. The children presently walk to the church, for their end of term carol service, stopping at Rodley Park on the return to sing carols to the residents. The reception children have a christening for their class doll. They also visit Jubilee House with Harvest parcels and to sing the songs from their Nativity play. Who will visit these people if the children are moved.
Yes, the island needs to save money, but the States has massively overspent on projects such as Beau Sejour and the New Jetty. They should concentrate on improving control of their expenditure and not closing community schools.
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If they set maximum class size limits i would have no objection at all to closing any of the schools down. I suggest a Max 15-20 per reception, y1 and 2; 20-25 for above y2.
If they just have as their objective to close the schools down and plan to shove all the kids into huge classes (like the 30+ kids per class at poor St Martins) then there will be serious repercussions for the children which i think the policy council have conveniently overlooked.
Smaller classes are necessary to give individual attention and to identify any potential problems which would otherwise escalate into major social and learning problems in adolescence and adulthood. The younger the child is when a problem or “potential” learning or social problem is identified the more money that the department will save in the long run.
On another note, “huts” should only be used temporarily and never without planning for the extra classrooms etc which are obviously necessary at any school which has these.
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How much does it cost the tax payer to keep the anachronistic charitable status to our independent schools?
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I completely agree with Wil.
Libby, whilst children might receive ‘just as good an education’ elsewhere, the simple fact is that research repeatedly proves that as class size increases, the quality of education decreases. The optimum class size is 18 and above 25 pupils there is a marked decline in performance.
The UK has legislation limiting infant class size. It’s time Guernsey had the same, then perhaps we can rationalise our education infrastructure and not at the cost of the children.
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Libby, there is absolutely no doubt that the island can save money by closing down community primary schools. The trouble is that it is the logic of the mindless who have forgotten what our real objectives are.
Have we not risen above the other apes? I think even they would put their community on a slightly higher priority.
It is worth repeating that during the zero-10 consultations the people made it clear that they wanted the States to make savings without cutting services. Since then cold water has been poured upon these aspirations, not least by the otherwise admirable Charles Parkinson.
However, my information is that huge savings are beginning to be found and have not yet hit the headlines.
So, for goodness sake, let us stay ahead ahead of the other apes and not needlessly destroy our communities.
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Rachel: All children have to move from infants to juniors. And also the Grammar school still has huts, Which I Learnt in, yes theyre a bit cold and one of them leaked, but if we managed while we were doing our actually importnant GCSE’s not just key stage 1, which correct me if im wrong, but do employers look at your grades for this? Er NO THEY DONT! Why dont the states just close the smallest school and be done with it. Still dont see why St sampons high couldnt be 2 floors, now it takes up way to much land space, its ridiculous!
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Carol Steere last night commented that other schools are using huts and they havent received any complaints well they should have!!! We live in an affluent island or though we seem to becoming more and more of a benefit state these days, our children should not be put in huts at any school on the Island.
I have no doubt that the Vale has extremely high educational standards I was schooled there having done the St Sampsons Infants to Vale transger process, what I do have a problem with is the school at this stage isnt ready to cope with the extra children. They should get the school ready first.
The other issue is if you put reception children in huts out of the main building and they need the toilet they are going to have to get coats on to walk across in the wind and rain to get to the toilet by THEMSELVES as the teacher wont be able to leave them and then come back again. In a purpose built school they only have to walk a few paces accross the hall.
If there are traffic issues at all schools then they need to get it sorted and if they hadnt of closed the local parish schools there wouldnt be so many cars on the roads as people could walk its only because they have closed them all people have to use their cars as its too far for the children to walk!!!
The other point I would like to make is what responsible parent would put their 4-7 year old on a bus with no supervision in place and no saftey restraints because we all use them in our cars but apparently this is exceptable as well!!!
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GsyGal did you really go to Grammar school? I ask because your concept of capitalisation, punctuation, sentence structure and spelling are charmingly unique!
Anyway more seriously, children being educated in huts is not ideal. I did my stint in a drafty, leaky hut a couple of decades ago and was under the impression that they were temporary then. It seems ridiculous to close St. Sampson’s if they are going to be absorbed into this situation.
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Dear GsyGal,
Re: Huts
Little children are very sensitive to their environment, especially if it is cold, unwelcoming and uncomfortable. If they dont like their environment then it will put them off learning (perhaps even for life) and they will resist going there. The foundations for learning (ie Key stage 1) are extremely important for success in later education (ie GCSEs) how can you say that they are not?
Hut usage in primary school also has a much greator impact on students than high school in respect to time spent in the huts. If you have a couple of classes in a hut per day as a high school student it is not ideal but completely bearable, now compare that to having to spend the whole day every day of the week in there. High school age students also have stronger immune systems and can tolerate a cold wet environment, wherby little children would be much more susceptable to becoming ill.
As i stated earlier i have no objection to the schools closing down, however, if a great number of children are to be moved into adjacent schools then surely the policy council would plan for it by building appropriate permanent accommodation and capping class sizes to maintain the quality of education that our children need and deserve. Quite simple really; am i asking too much?
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David: Yes i did thanks, and i left with 11 GCSE passes.Also im so very sorry, i had a few typos. (important not importnant)
Wil: I assume you aren’t from over here as it is Secondary school, not High School. But seriously, While Hautes Cappelles was being rebuilt the children had to work in huts, i dont see what the big deal is? So if the poor little angels are so sensitive i assume they arent aloud to do pe/Games outside in fear they may get cold or bump their knee.
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I actually was taught in different countries so use “high” school and “secondary” school interchangeably -sorry for the confusion Gsygal.
If the huts are temporary while building is taking place then that is excellent, i hope that that is the case for all schools with them.
I feel that this is important because i hold great value in early education. It is not necessary to get emotional and make ridiculously derogatory comments about children like “poor little angels” might bump their knee etc -also typing errors (like aloud instead of allowed) is also not important; just the facts of the matter.
I do agree with you that they should not drag this out, make the decision to close the school, let the money saved by holding endless meetings go towards building better facilities and planning for appropriate class sizes.
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Well arent all the huts temporary (apart from the Grammar school ones)? Or that was my impression anyway, hence the strong stand point of the kids wont die if they’re in a hut for a month. If they are not temporary, (as i was led to believe they were)they the kids should not leave the school until other schools can accomodate them. Apologises for any confusion in my posts, but like i said, i thought the huts were temporary.
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Pay attention at the back!
GsyGal I would think that the new ‘St Sampson’s High’ is a high school.
Or did the Great Guernsey School Naming Committee get the name wrong?
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Have Education released any numbers that demonstrate that by closing a single form entry school and merging them into a slightly larger one, that the cost per child will significantly reduce? Surely, as is being implied in this thread, some infrastructure is going to have to be invested in else the quality of the education will deteriorate.
It’s quite plain that the standard of all round education in Guernsey is at odds with its supposed wealth. This rationalisation may make sense when attempting to match unrealistic budget proposals made after a botched realisation of future receipts (who’s watch was that on?) but it makes no sense if we are to be perceived as a jurisdiction of high standards of living.
Infants in huts this year, larger class sizes as the teachers are rationalised the next, text book purchasing reduced, music/sport/social activities forgotten about – this is all the same strategies as the ‘economic miracle’ of eighties England. The result is that no-one wanted to teach, the kids grew up hating their schools and politicians became hate objects..
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Marmalade: yes it is St Sampsons High, as it is St Sampsons Secondary school, St Peter Port Secondary and soon the be Beaucamps Secondary all mixed together. So having two St Sampsons Secondary schools just wouldnt work, Would it?
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The huts at Vale school arent temporary they have been there for at least 18 years if not longer as they were there when I went.
No Education havent released figures on the cost per head if schools are merged so we cant see what the cost per pupil would be to see if the savings are significant.
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GsyGal – Who said anything about two St Sampson’s secondary schools?
Is Beaucamps really closing?
When was this announced?
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Well that was the idea of St sampsons high, to merge most the secondary schools that are falling apart into one big school. I think there considering rebuilding les Beucamps, but the first plans were for them to go to StSH aswel i believe.
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Cut the government pension schemes before childrens education!
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Having listened to Deputy Steere yesterday on the phone in what was clear is the lady didn’t know her subject and was seriously flailing. My prediction is St Andrew’s is safe.
On the broder issue of budgets I wonder how many years each school could have stayed open had Education not wated millions on the ‘Underperforming Arts Centre’
Shameful wastes of money year after year. Most of the wastage being Guernsey propping up its friends in the building industry
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Right on all counts Jackie.
I even felt sorry for Mrs Steere (well for about 10 second at least) She seemed out of her depth.
We hear that a number of deputies want to close St Andrew’s School. We are also told in the Press that a suggestion has been made to close both or keep open both schools.
If any alternative is proposed it will be without any case for or against. Deputies will be voting in the dark, as the case is put in the Billet one purpose only – closing one school and retaining the other.
Can deputies rely on the mass of data in the Billet? After all the distance pupils will have to travel is given as the crow flies and not according to the shortest route.
What sort of credibility does this give for other dats??
Best throw the whole thing out. Sorry, Education but you ahve failed the test.
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I wonder, are the costs per pupil, based on all schools with huts not having to account for higher costs of providing permanent buildings.
Surely, the correct procedure would be to ensure that all huts are replaced with permanent buildings before increasing the overall pupil numbers.
Incidentally, does anyone know what is to become of the land at St Sampsons? I hope this is not earmarked for some private developer!! Some great views from up there on the hill.
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I started out in a ‘hut’ at Capelles and at the time I couldn’t care less at 4 years old.
Suggesting that children could be mentally affected by being in such accommodation (Wil) seems a bit daft to me.
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Exactly Russ. Unfortunately nowadays people try to add weight to their various arguments by using either children, old people or front line services as modern day ‘human shields’.
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Russ
As far as I’m concerned this issue is about the dichotomy between the ‘success’ of Guernsey plc and the ‘failure’ of the public sector. It is increasingly apparent that ‘Guernsey’ is a metaphor for the finance industry – with its aims and aspirations, not wrongly to provide a living for those involved, and that anything else has to be ‘rationalised’ alongside it. This creates tension in certain areas, not least the future for children.
I was taught in a ‘hut’. As you say, at a young age you take it as normal day-to-day living, which of course it is, but the reality is that is shows a distinct lack of support for children that would benefit even more if there were more funds available for those that look after, that educate, and that progress our children into a respecting adulthood.
Children’s education should be an over-riding priority. If we are to solve social problems such as vandalism and petty criminiality, the kids need to have outlets for any possible frustrations. Education allows them to be more involved in a greater variety of situations, the more likely for them to find a ‘niche’ they can operate within without being anti-social. All this talk about closures for infant schools, for lowering tax burdens on the rich and of errant political leaders does nothing for the impressionable teenagers that are longing to feel part of a system that means something to them.
It is not a simple case of rationalisation, it paves the way for the young to think that they are not worth it and that the only people that matter are so far removed from their everyday lives that ‘what’s the point?’.
The huts in themselves are not the wider issue, but rather the symptom of a lack of investment in childrens’ future.
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Fast Robert
I’m in a state of shock. I think I agree with more than 50% of one of your postings (7.27pm on 27th January), which is a first ! I think I must go and see a doctor asap.
Seriously, several of our schools have been neglected in the physical environment sense for years, while others have become of the highest possible standard. Perhaps it was the general intention that, money permitting, they would all be of that same high standard in due course, but unfortunately the investment in the new ones has been shown to be at the expense of the crumbling ones and now there is no money left for the latter.
But I don’t see it as a problem caused by this current House or even the previous one. It harks back to decisions (or non-decisions) made in the 1980s and 1990s, and in my view linked firmly to the aspirations of senior civil servants in Education to unsuccessfully try to abolish the 11-plus. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the 11-plus system (and personally I see the pros and cons of it, as well as the fact that it seems to have worked for Guernsey), it was entirely wrong to stop spending money on maintaining Les Beaucamps and La Mare in the belief that we were going to scrap the ultra-successful Grammar School and have all gold-plated high schools instead. I think that’s why we are where we are today.
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David
One of the things that shocked me when reading the Education report in the Billet was the percentage of students on the Special Education Needs Register. The figure is 16.38% of students.
That is 1133 out of 6919. And these are in the main stream and not the special schools
Seems there will be a need for another special school before much longer.
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Whilst the huts at the Vale Infants’ School are perfectly comfortable for the purpose of teaching they do not have sufficient room to allow for balanced classes if the roll numbers increase due to pupils being transferred from St Sampson’s Infants.
Specifically, the huts can accommodate a maximum of 20 pupils which would leave in excess of 27 children being taught in a class room in the main building. Thus two classes would be advantaged by relatively low class numbers but one class would have the distinct disadvantage of too many pupils. This is an unbalance which should be avoided.
There is no way of rearranging the classes to allow for a balanced situation to be achieved. It would be interesting to learn what provisions the Education Department have made to address this problem.
Most educationalists are agreed that children, particularly infants, benefit most from small class sizes and the Education Department seem poised to embark on cost cutting by using the demographic downturn in numbers of pupils to reduce teacher numbers instead of improving pupil performance by encouraging smaller class sizes.
Within existing budget constraints (not future savings) one thing alone should inform debate –what is in the best interests of the child?
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Jackie (& Russ), I dont see a problem with addressing the needs of the children in an argument concerning standards of child education. Are you saying that the children are irrelevant? (i dont see how they could be) or are you saying that anyone who advocates on behalf of them is a terrorist?
If leaky, cold, mouldy huts are up to your standards for your children (if you have any) then your standards must be very low.
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I was taught in huts for some of my Primary school years and this had no adverse effect on education. They were never cold in winter and admittedly got a bit toasty in summer, but opening doors/windows always did the trick and made it almost feel like having lessons outside! Huts are not ideal, but some of the comments above are a complete overreation (children becoming ill because of them etc.)
I really hope the States has the guts to make the decision to close both schools, as if there are 400 fewer Primary School aged pupils now than in 2000 (as stated by Education I believe), then I don’t see how it is viable to keep all schools open.
Also, if I hear the phrase “it’ll rip the heart out of the parish” one more time… GRRRRRRR
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Well said Mr Quest. I was taught in a hut at the old Boys Grammar School in Brock Rd in the 70s and the best room there was the ‘chemistry’ hut. The rooms inside the actual school buildings were depressing, cold and austere.
Buildings like the Boys Grammar and St Andrew’s would never be considered fit for purpose as education centres in this day and age, in the same way that the Castel Hospital is not a fit base for mental health services.
I say sell off both the Castel Hospital and St Andrew’s School and use the proceeds to provide proper, decent services fit for our 21st century needs.
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Yes well said Mr Q and Martyn, I was also taught in huts when I went to school and it has done me no harm at all, I can understand the feeling running high from parents, no parent want’s their child/children upset but I do feel that some of the arguments coming from the parents is way off the mark, and at the end of the day they are thinking of themselves rather than the good of the child. What about the children that find it difficult to integrate into the Vale Junior school at 7years old and I know of many, I myself actually appealed to education to let my son go to Vale at 5years old for that very reason. To which they grated permission. What about the Lewis Hamilton impressions at 3pm racing from St.Sampsons Infants to go and pick up little Johnnie at the Vale Juniors,what about trying to fit in two sports days, two carol services two parents nights, I could go on.We have heard many parents against the closures but is it a case of who shouts the loudest? Please think of the good of all children in the island and not just a few.
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Does anyone understand the concept of Community? This subject is very emotive but it just goes to show that everything Guernsey used to stand for is being chucked down the bin. Education will save a certain amount of money each year if these schools are closed but St Sampsons community and St Andrews community will suffer. Children will have to be driven to school instead of walked and I think its terrible that budgets are put before the welfare of children. At the debate held recently, Mrs Steere suggested that the children from St Sampsons could be put on a bus to go to Vale Infants but as a Mother I would not be happy putting my 4 year old on a bus each morning and waving them off. My son starts school this year and I’m just glad that he’s going to a Catholic school that receives only a certain amount of funding each year from Education and the rest is paid by the parents.
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What about the fact that all other Island schoolchildren are effectively being penalised by keeping schools such as St. Sampson’s Infant going? Maybe small “community” schools are nice, but don’t forget that all of these pupils are likely to end up in a 500+ high school or 1000+ Grammar School!
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Let’s get back to the whole point behind these actions, which appears to be another example of the States penny-pinching disproportionately again. I believe they are looking at saving something like just £250,000 a year, at the expense of all the disruption and effect on the children. Put this in perspective against the millions spent on tankers, rushed through without consultation!
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Wil, FR, my point was that as a child you do not appreciate what is right or wrong about the environment you are in.
I am a parent and, of course, will want the best for my children when they reach schooling age.
My own view is that education is the last area that the States should be looking to cut costs and my simplistic outlook is that
a) there shouldn’t be any school closures happening or even in discussion;
b) continual investment should be going into all of our island schools, whatever the cost.
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RUSS:
hear hear!
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