Threatened schools saved
Friday 30th January 2009, 2:30PM GMT.
States members voted by the narrowest of margins to keep St Sampson’s Infants School open, as well as St Andrew’s Primary.
BOTH St Sampson’s Infants School and St Andrew’s Primary will remain open, the States decided this morning.
In a close vote, the House decided to reject the recommendation to close St Sampson’s Infants by 24 votes to 23.
And they followed this by approving the Education Department’s recommendation to keep St Andrew’s open by 29 votes to 18.
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Common sense has prevailed. Why close a perfectly good school and send children to sub-standard overcrowded classrooms.
Why can’t the old St Sampsons secondary be utilised as a Primary School now?
Grandma
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Hopefully those who voted against the closures have long memories.
So in two years time when education comes along asking for a large rise in their budget they’ll remember why they need the money, and not complain about it …….
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Yet again the states bow do the vocal minority and ignore common sense and reason.
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A contrary view is that some deputies have come to understand what money is for.
I don’t want to demonize the pro-closure faction, but is it not underhand to describe the concerned parents and others as a minority?
I was present in the gallery for the whole of the debate. It was striking how the pro-closure faction argued for cost efficiency and were perfectly happy if it led to a diminution of the quality of life for hundreds of people but are too lazy to make real savings in, for example, their profligate IT spending.
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Frances
Can you please explain what you mean by sub-standard over crowded class rooms.
Are you saying that the children at the St Sampson school have a better level of education compared to a child at the Capelles or Vale schools? If so, is that really fair?
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David Cranch
To “too lazy to make real savings^ I would add too incompetent.
The whole nasty and unpleasant episode has shown how easy it is for the States to make mistakes.
Thankfully, they (or at least 24) realised what a distinctly shabby set of proposals they were being asked to approve.
Even more incredible is that 19 members voted for closing St Andrew’s when there was no case set out in the Billet for the closure of St Andrews.
At least the 23 who wanted to be rid of St Sampson’s, did have a case of sorts, set out before them in the Billet.
“The blind leading the blind” springs to mind!!!!!
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David Cranch has it right. Faux savings by Education because it’s a visible and easy hit. Close a school and close a dentist. Deal with chronic wastage within the system; no chance that’s far too difficult. Self scrutinisation – perish the thought.
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Toby
If Education, as you say, were to come along in two years time for as you aslo put it “a large rise in their budget” it will not be because St Sampson’s school has remained open.
We know from the Billet the costs. And they certainly don’t suggest the need for a “large rise in their budget”
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Lets hope theyleave all primary schools alone now.
With the overcrowding at some primary schools, maybe it time that the Education department looked at the catchment areas and changed them.
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Time for Duputy Steere to go
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I believe that what Frances meant by sub standard is the level of education each child would receive in larger class sizes.
I certainly do not think that the Vale or Capelles offer a poor level of education and I have a child at St Sampsons who is only in reception so would have been affected in the closure.
When you look at the total savings of educations budget it wasnt even 1% so surely there are numerous other areas they could look at.
For one I am relieved that the whole ordeal is over. For some to comment that the States has backdowned to the minority is harsh several people put alot of time and effort into trying to save the school and they wouldnt have done so if they didnt think that Education had floored arguments for the closure.
I now hope that our children can enjoy their education in peace.
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Lets just see what education will have to cut back on now, it is inevitable they will have to, lets see the sparks fly then!!!!As Carole Steere has just said on CTV, cutbacks elsewhere will have to be made.
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Let’s hope the short-sighted drum-bangers realise the consequence of their actions.
Although, their fellow band wagon politicians will suddenly be disgusted that another service is withdrawn and jump on that bandwagon blaming others when they are the real cause.
There is only so much money in the pot, and if it goes on these schools it won’t go elsewhere.
Let them not complain about having to pay extra money for things at this time of economic downturn.
I hear that the music service is likely to be in the firing line, but hey choices have consequences and of course these people won’t complain about such opportunities being no longer available or having to pay more money in other ways to fill the shortfall.
Let’s hope those St Andrew’s parents won’t complain if the funding is not there for a new Beaucamp.
This was a test for the States of whether it was serious about making savings to make zero-ten workable and whether those deputies that had promised in their manifesto to make savings and services more efficient were serious or would go back to the old ways of little planning and prioritisation.
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Many thanks to the deputies who supported the parents’ and teachers’ case. Deputy Maindonald: shame on you!
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Absolutely right valeite. This was the first test of the States mettle and resolve to stop wasting money like water and they failed. Emotive claptrap and misplaced sentiment won the day over clear, rational, strategic thinking and it’s all very depressing.
Some time soon we’ll see a TRULY necessary part of Guernsey’s education service begin to suffer because a majority of our elected representatives are posturing populists who are incapable of making bold, hard and necessary decisions. Don’t expect any of that shallow bunch to accept an iota of blame when the inevitable happens.
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Carol Steere now needs to stand down or now face a vote of no confidence.
She is clearly at odds with here own committee and could not support the majority
Decision of her committee.
I number of untrue comments were made by Carol Steere during the debate about both schools.
All education were doing is moving costs from one committee to another.
Thankfully the States saw through what was being proposed and common sense prevailed.
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How about cutting the funding to GuernseyFinance. That would save a million or so. Why is the infants that have to be disrupted?
In principle I agree that merging schools to form an unbroken 4-11 or ideally 4-18 system will work better in the long term. You get to make your own mind up about loyalty, and not rely on parents’ reimagining of what your infant school used to be like (I can’t remember much about being 4-7, especially not school where stuff just happens around you). However, the presentation, the leadership and the complete lack of solidarity in this regard totally doomed it to failure. The lack of foresight to see that there would be a massive outburst of indignation by using language such as ‘rationalisation’ and ‘budgetary constraints’ which would never sit well with parents (or patients in the health sector), defies logic. Where were the promises to upgrade the recipient facilities? The efforts to allay fears about traffic and parking? There was no clear message other than financial.
The community aspect is important and I’m afraid just countering the argument by saying it’s all about emotions is not near enough the mark. When parents put a lot of effort into a school they expect some loyalty. That is what they got and it shows that democracy can belong in the people’s hands.
Whether or not it was the right long term decision…well, until Guernsey builds itself more fit-for-purpose 21st century schools then the ‘my school is more important than yours’ angle will never disappear. Uniformity across the board will set the children up for results based on merit, rather than catchment area, and then the parents efforts can be used more efficiently to benefit everyone. But until the facilities are there to match our standard of living and the aspirations of our children then it’ll need draconian policy to change things. And when that happens it’s a slippery slope.
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I agree money does need to be saved but not by closing two excellant schools!
The closing of one or two of the schools would have just caused new costs for the enviorment dept due to transport costs, so the education dept may have saved money but overall the budget would not improve.
Maybe the states should review the building(s) that aren’t currently used effectivly and sell them off to help fill the black hole.
The deputy I am most disapointed by is Matt Fallaize. He used his convincing manifesto to gain votes only to change his mind when it came to the vote. The is not the way I expect our deputies to behave and will not vote for him in the future.
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Guern
For the benefit of those of us who were unable to hear the debate or read the Press, can you tell us the “untrue comments were made by Carol Steere during the debate about both schools”.
Fast Robert
Absolutely correct about saving money by making the industry and not the taxpayer, pay for the running of Guernsey Finance. Enough tom keep both schools secure and avoid the threat from Deputy Steere to cut services.
John
You refer to the manifesto of Matt Fallaize. Can I respectfully suggest you read the manifesto once again, and note what was actually stated.
Moderator
Is it possible to put the list of those who voted for and against on Your Shout?
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I am pleased that two wonderful schools have been saved from annihilation. If cuts need to be made to education’s budget, then it is right that this should be done across the board in a way that affects the whole island equally, and not just in the parishes with the two smallest schools. As Deputy Ogier said, keeping these well-performing small schools alive is money well spent.
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Why were the first ‘cuts’ to be made aimed at perfectly functioning infants/primary schools? Surely education and health should be the very last places that cuts are made because of the island’s doomed zero-ten policy, and the current global economic crisis. There are so many more places in the public sector that cuts could be made first. Shameful really. Right result in the end though.
As for Carol Steere, well she should be fighting to maintain/increase her department’s budget, not close schools. She is at odds with her own committee and has lost her one-woman crusade. As someone has already said, her position is now untenable as Education Minister. Find her another department where she can prove she is a politician who can ‘make tough decisions’. That’s all it was about with her. She needs to fight the cause of tough right decisions for the people of Guernsey, not blatantly wrong ones (as proved by the eventual vote).
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John, I will put this as politely as possible given my disbelief at what you are saying.
A politician says what he believes given the facts he has at hand.
He then gains more facts by virtue of his new position. He carefully re-evalutes his stance given the new facts he has at hand that have given him a bigger picture….
And you say this is wrong?? Evaluating the facts you have and making a decision is wrong? Being prepared to admit you were wrong, in light of new facts is wrong?
What was it Churchill said about 5 minutes and the average voter!
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The role of the Policy Council in the fiasco of the education debate has been almost ignored.
The document received by the Policy Council received a less than fulsome welcome. It become clear that as with the Education Department, the Policy Council was itself split on what should happen.
Reading the Education report and its mishmash of ideas and general lack of any real direction, should have resulted in the Policy Council throwing the report back to Education with the advice to start again and re present in a couple of months.
Instead the Policy Council added to the chaos with some members recommending a course of action based on personal prejudices.
Before any Policy Council member or apologist puts pen to paper to defend themselves think of the lack of any case in the documentation concerning the closing of St Andrew’s or both schools. There was no real evidence, just lashings of “I think” rather than “I Know”.
Is that the sort of information States members are expected to make such critical decisions on?
Whilst Education didn’t have to heed the advice of the Policy Council the very fact that the PC had rejected the report, might have persuaded some enterprising deputy to urge the immediate rejection of the report, which would have saved hours of wasted time, in discussing the substandard fare put on the table by the Education Department.
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How they voted on proposal to approve the closure of St Sampson’s Infants School
For: Deputies Barry Brehaut, Carla McNulty Bauer, Jenny Tasker, Roger Domaille, Allister Langlois, Jan Kuttelwascher, Carol Steere, Jack Honeybill, Sam Maindonald, Matt Fallaize, Geoff Mahy, Tony Spruce, Graham Guille, Andrew Le Lievre, Mark Dorey, Hunter Adam, Tom Le Pelley, Bernard Flouquet, Al Brouard, Marc Laine, Shane Langlois, Peter Sirett, Charles Parkinson. Total: 23.
Against: Deputies John Gollop, Rhoderick Matthews, Martin Storey, Leon Gallienne, Mike Collins, Peter Gillson, Scott Ogier, Ivan Rihoy, Lyndon Trott, Jane Stephens, Mary Lowe, Dave Jones, Sean McManus, Barry Paint, Michael Garrett, David De Lisle, Gloria Dudley-Owen, Francis Quin, Mike O’Hara, Robert Sillars, Janine Le Sauvage and Michael Hadley and Alderney representatives Richard Willmott and Bill Walden (Alderney). Total: 24.
How they voted on the proposal to keep St Andrew’s Primary School open
For: Allister Langlois, John Gollop, Rhoderick Matthews, Martin Storey, Leon Gallienne, Mike Collins, Peter Gillson, Scott Ogier, Ivan Rihoy, Lyndon Trott, Jane Stephens, Mary Lowe, Dave Jones, Tom Le Pelley, Sean McManus, Barry Paint, Michael Garrett, Al Brouard, David De Lisle, Marc Laine, Gloria Dudley-Owen, Charles Parkinson, Francis Quin, Mike O’Hara, Robert Sillars, Janine Le Sauvage and Michael Hadley and Alderney representatives Richard Willmott and Bill Walden. Total: 29.
Against: Deputies Barry Brehaut, Carla McNulty Bauer, Jenny Tasker, Roger Domaille, Jan Kuttelwascher, Carol Steere, Jack Honeybill, Sam Maindonald, Matt Fallaize, Geoff Mahy, Tony Spruce, Graham Guille, Andrew Le Lievre, Mark Dorey, Hunter Adam, Bernard Flouquet, Shane Langlois and Peter Sirett. Total: 18.
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The most amazing thing to come out of this is how fast Matt Fallaize has turned and started to run with the pack. Must be an all time States record!
Like somebody else mentioned, he was voted in on the strength of his manifesto only to do the opposite.
Take note young man, islanders have very long memories and 4 years is not a very long time. Why don’t you start trying to do some good in the time you have left.
As for Deputy Steere, she’s not fit to lead her department. She should be fighting tooth and nail for it, not cutting services.
As for saving money:- Let Guernsey Finance fund itself and stop paying our these idiots who are coming with these ideas. Nett saving roughly £2M.
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I’m wondering when the deputies who promised to ‘tweak’ zero 10 are going to start?
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I agree with Jackie (now there’s a first)! Deputy Parkinson is now head of Treasury and was one the zero ten’s critics – but he seems to be embracing it now!
There is nowt so fickle as a politician who is settled in a comfort zone!
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The trouble with Zero-10 is that it’s based on a healthy and ‘growing economy’. It seems no-one thought about a possible down turn. The proposed tweaks should be interesting.
Re – my earlier comment on saving money.
We should stop paying our politicians. If money needs to be saved they should put their money where their mouths are and start with themselves.
The decision making has got worse since it became a paid job. If your that passionate about Guernsey then you should do it for opportunity of being elected to that position.
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