Thatcher ban ‘sends the right message’
Wednesday 4th February 2009, 2:29PM GMT.
A DECISION by the BBC to drop Carol Thatcher from The One Show after she used the term golliwog has been welcomed by the man who tried to sack Bernard Flouquet for using the same word.
Leon Gallienne (pictured) today applauded the move by the corporation and said it was sending out the right message.
‘They are saying they will not tolerate racism in any shape or form,’ he said. ‘This shows the BBC is taking it seriously and maybe our government should have taken it a bit more seriously as well.’
Deputy Flouquet declined to comment. He made a number of apologies for his remark and was reprimanded by the members’ conduct panel, a recommendation which was endorsed unanimously by the States.
Ms Thatcher has refused to make the unconditional apology the BBC demanded.
The daughter of the former Prime Minister allegedly made the comment off-air about a tennis player at the Australian Open during a conversation with fellow presenters after Thursday’s filming of The One Show.
- To read Guernsey Press stories in full click here for subscription details. Individual editions are now available online.
Island Life
All about Guernsey
Ambassador of the Year 2011
History & Heritage
Visitor Information
Guernsey's government
Campaigns
Voice For Victims
Voice for Victims is a campaign aimed at promoting the rights of those affected by child sexual abuse.
This is Guernsey
Guernsey Press
Useful Links
Wow… a little OTT perhaps?? This joke was made in PRIVATE and Miss Thatcher lost her job. If I made a joke to my family that COULD possibly (to the over-sensitive) be construed as racist in any way (and I would like to point out at this point that I am not racist at all, and do not condone discriminatory behaviour of any kind) would someone report me? Would I be called in to the manager’s office of a Monday morning and be told I was being let go because of my racist ways?! I think not…
Report abuse
Wasnt someone from Guernsey working at the BBC who told on her was it…??
Report abuse
In reply to P, it was hardly in private when the people who complained were there in person. The comment was made during work hours on a work assignment on work premises and in the presence of work colleagues, some of whom clearly found it to be offensive. Your analogy of a family conversation is very different.
Report abuse
It appears the States of Guernsey has a different code here.
Our Chief Minister is aloud to threaten another Deputy, and our Deputy Chief Minister is aloud to make a racist joke!
It appears anything goes in this Island.
C’est la vie.
Report abuse
she should have changed her name to Mrs Ross..
Report abuse
When is this time waster going to give up on this witch hunt??
Report abuse
Love your thinking P; [Even if i make a comment that I know could be racist doesnt mean I am a racist - the rest of the world is just over-sensitive] Hmm delusions of self granduer? -just slightly! Ignorant? – totally!
Is this interpretation of your comment correct? surely not. please tell me that my comprehension is completely wrong.
On another note, does anyone know why Ms Thatcher didnt apologise?
Report abuse
The term golliwog is probably only offensive and racist if directed at a particular person. The actual term golliwog refers to a child’s toy made many years ago, it is only in today’s world that it has become offensive and racist, and surely only the last syllable is the offending part of the word, there is nothing wrong with the golli part of the word.
Report abuse
It was said in PRIVATE, for goodness sake! I’m sure we all have made little faux pas amongst friends etc that would drop us in hot water if we were in the public eye.
Prince Harry and Prince Philip have been excused -when no malice is intended what is the big deal?
Report abuse
“Our Chief Minister is allowed to threaten another Deputy, and our Deputy Chief Minister is allowed to make a racist joke!”
To paraphrase a famous quote: If the Chief Minister of the States of Guernsey does it then it isn’t illegal.
I think we need to shorten the terms of office so these jokers have to take responsibility for their actions sooner.
It is obvious the majority of the States are incapable of governing themselves, let alone the rest of the island.
Report abuse
Wil- I’m afraid I am not going to make your day and enter into an argument with you. I’ve aired my opinion, which I believe I am entitled to do.. And you have aired your own (over-sensitive ;) ) one as well.
I would like to also welcome your personal insults, as the irony of own your narrow-mindedness amuses me. :)
Report abuse
Wil, I would imagine all of us have at one time or another said something which could be construed as racist or offensive, apart from those of us who consider ourselves to be perfect!
There are more important things to worry about rather than be afraid to say anything which is going to offend some holier-than-thou person.
And Carol Thatcher probably hasn’t apologized because she isn’t (honestly) sorry!
Report abuse
‘The term golliwog is probably only offensive and racist if directed at a particular person.’
Such as Barack Obama or a black tennis player, for example?
Report abuse
this really does “push my button”…..there is nothing wrong with golliwogs or any other black dolls. the problem is when the “pc” brigade jump up and down and try to force us to change history.
Report abuse
I agree with you that there are definitely greater things in the world to worry about. Even in my “little” world i always at least try not to offend people. If i know that something may be misconscrued as racist then i dont say it, or i at least try to say it a different way. Im sure that i have offended people when i didnt mean to, but i would always apologise if i had (even if i think they are being over-sensitive). Thats why i think there is more to this story……
By the way, it was just an interpretation of your comment, i asked if i was wrong and if i was then that is fine – sorry if i offended you.
Report abuse
Racism is a hugely misused word. The definition of the word is:-
‘The belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. People with racist beliefs might hate certain groups of people according to their racial groups’ (Wikipedia)
To make fun of somebody of a different race is in my opinion ‘hugely different’ to ‘being racist’
I make fun of friends and they do likewise – just because we’re of the same race, it somehow makes it alright – big ears/stupid hair/short-ar5e etc. BUT – don’t talkabout someone’s skin colour – OH NO – that’s different – WHY?
If we’re all supposed to get along together and we’re all supposed to be the same, then it’s a level playing field – skin colour and race are all simply differences in the same way that height/weight/hair colour/eye site are too. These are openly mocked by millions of people. but it’s considered to be ‘OK’.
And anyway, the truth of the matter is that cultures do not easily mix in general – they naturally segregate and by doing so, they feel at ease with familiarity of others around them.
Many years ago, white (can I use the word white?) families would be wary of a black family moving into the neighbourhood. BUT, the same would be true if a white family were to move into a black area – race and cultural differences work both ways but it seems that it’s only ever racial discrimination when against non-whites!!
Report abuse
If there is anyone still persisting in the mistaken belief that ‘gollywog’ is not an offensive remark please read up on its history:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/06/race-thatcher-golliwog
If you think it was never offensive to anyone, please read the below (quoted in the guardian)
“For as long as I can remember and I’m in my mid-40s, it [the word gollywog] has always been something people have used to poke fun at people like me,” said Michael Eboda, publisher of The Power List of Britain’s 100 most powerful black men and women. “There are some white people who’ve been trying to say that when we were all young it wasn’t offensive. I just feel like saying: Maybe not to you. To me, it always has been. To use that term of a black person is an unequivocal insult. There’s no other way of interpreting it, and it really makes me wonder how many other people use those terms in their private worlds.”
Report abuse
People just don’t get it.
Report abuse
The sooner we can protect Ginger people under legislation the better.
Report abuse
“I would like to also welcome your personal insults, as the irony of own your narrow-mindedness amuses me”
We see this often here. Reverting to abuse is a sure sign of weakness and loss of argument, eh Fast Robert?
Report abuse
What we also see on these pages are people willing to offer an opinion on matters they clearly know nothing about, eh Jackie?
Report abuse
Hi to everyone that has commented on the subject of golliwogs. I cannot believe in this day and age of what is considered to be “intelligent people” that the word golliwog can be made offensive. Many years ago they bought joy and happiness to many a child who loved them and never considered them anything to do with black people, likewise black dolls. Even adults back a good few years ago never thought of being offensive to black people when giving their child a fabulous toy to love.
I think people are taking this both for Bernard Flouquet and Carole Thatcher to the very extreme.
Report abuse
An excerpt from an informative website from the US:
“The claim that Golliwogs are racist is supported by literary depictions by writers such as Enid Blyton. Unlike Florence Upton’s, Blyton’s Golliwogs were often rude, mischievous, elfin villains. In Blyton’s book, Here Comes Noddy Again, a Golliwog asks the hero for help, then steals his car. Blyton, one of the most prolific European writers, included the Golliwogs in many stories, but she only wrote three books primarily about Golliwogs: The Three Golliwogs (1944), The Proud Golliwog (1951), and The Golliwog Grumbled (1953). Her depictions of Golliwogs are, by contemporary standards, racially insensitive. An excerpt from The Three Golliwogs is illustrative:
‘Once the three bold golliwogs, Golly, Woggie, and Nigger, decided to go for a walk to Bumble-Bee Common. Golly wasn’t quite ready so Woggie and Nigger said they would start off without him, and Golly would catch them up as soon as he could. So off went Woogie and Nigger, arm-in-arm, singing merrily their favourite song — which, as you may guess, was Ten Little Nigger Boys.’
Ten Little Niggers is the name of a children’s poem, sometimes set to music, which celebrates the deaths of ten Black children, one-by-one. The Three Golliwogs was reprinted as recently as 1968, and it still contained the above passage. Ten Little Niggers was also the name of a 1939 Agatha Christie novel, whose cover showed a Golliwog lynched, hanging from a noose.”
http://www.ferris.edu/news/jimcrow/golliwog/
The reason people weren’t ‘meaning to be offensive’ was because they were ignorant. Ignorance is no excuse for perpetuating racism. Black kids still get called golliwogs as an insult. It is not acceptable.
Report abuse
FR – Well researched. As you say ‘Ignorance is no excuse for perpetuating racism.’
Report abuse
Dawn you said; “I cannot believe in this day and age of what is considered to be “intelligent people” that the word golliwog can be made offensive.”
It is not so much a lack of intelligence but more a lack of knowledge, or ignorance if one prefers, that leads to a non racist making a racist remark.
To illustrate the point the remark made on other threads dealing with this subject have used the argument that people making a joke from the genre concerning an Englishman a Scotsman and an Irishman are either not being racist or are not being held to account for being racist. History, therefore knowledge, tells us that people from the coloured races have been exploited by white people in the name of profit and greed. Whilst exploiting the coloured races white people perpetuated a belief to others and more importantly to their impressionable children that the coloured races were inferior to whites. Some would say that the coloured races human rights were abused, though most whites for a long period didn’t believe they had any as they believed them to be subhuman. It wasn’t unheard of for members of a coloured race to be beaten to death for minor offenses or even just for the ‘fun’ of it with no question of the white perpertrator being charged with murder.
Times changed, slavery was abolished, and members of coloured races gained some recognition of being human with a right to freedom, but still for many years were considered inferior. Consequently many whites denied them equality in many areas of human endeavor, from sport, education, social integration and business, taunting and insulting them for their near hopeless situation with such derogatory terms as niggers, wogs etc. that helped whites to maintain their own beliefs of superiority.
Credit to the coloured races for maintaining their own belief that they were white peoples equals in the face of such adversity. Unfortunately some believe they are in fact superior, however that is just a pendulum effect and hopefully will settle down.
You can see from this that the Englishman, Scotsman, Irishman jokes or jokes about gingerhaired people, or short people or baldies (sorry i just had to slip that one in) has absolutely no comparison whatsoever. None of the afforementioned groups have been treated in the way that people from coloured races were treated.
Now, given the way that people of coloured races had been treated in the past they have a right not to be referred to by terms that strengthened the white peoples mistaken belief of their own superiority. And people of the white races, if they have all of the above knowledge and respect for other races, and believe in their equality, will refrain from using such terms which are insulting to so many people.
One of the problems now is that the past is slowly being forgotten and incidents like this will from time to time occour. The time however will come when such descrimination and racial abuse of the people of coloured races is beyond living memory and people will exchange jokes based on racial difference where the coloured races are concerned with no ill effect.
Concerning G Flouquets remark that he ‘likes jokes like that’ followed with ‘I didn’t realize the racial undertone.’ Those remarks are a contradiction of terms. He should of stood down after appologising and restood for re-election, he would be in a stronger position now. As for Carol Thatcher there is only one possible reason for not appologising to anyone, whatever their race, that felt agrieved at her remark.
Just to finish off, with regard to Israel and Gazza, now there’s current racism at it’s worst with more to come if this following quotes are anything to go by:
“Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” – Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001
And interestingly:
“Economic crises have been produced by us for the goyim by no other means than the withdrawal of money from circulation.” – Protocols of Zion – 20
And who are the ‘goyim’? Why that’s us, and not even a capital ‘G’, the nerve.
Report abuse
Her silence speaks volumes.
Report abuse
Steven
Good post. Indeed it was only a year or so ago that students in a Southern US state put nooses up on a tree they considered a ‘white’ tree after some black students used it for shade one day.
The overtones (not undertones, Mr Flouquet) of racist imagery are alive and unfortunately well. This is why we must have no tolerance for ANYONE that keeps uttering this nonsense, let alone public figures in press conferences, or those that are supposedly ‘journalists’.
Report abuse
In an otherwise good posting Steven repeats the DCM’s remark that he ‘likes jokes like that’.
Steven assumes, as other people have, that the DCM was referring to the racial aspect of the joke.
As far as I can see the DCM could equally have been referring to the duplex structure of the joke.
In Miss Thatcher’s defence, she had an extremely bad upbringing from her two awful parents. The golliwog thing appears to be her major slip-up while her brother’s life is one disaster after another.
Report abuse
David Cranch
No, I’m sorry. The joke is about black people being accepted into positions of power , so let’s accept golliwogs, with the stark imagery of persecution, back into public normality.
But I get your point on the Thatchers.
Report abuse
David, firstly thanks for the compliment.
I take your point that the DCM may have been referring to the duplex structure of the joke. However the cause of my assumption was the DCMs comment in the joke between the duplicity, and thereby i find it very difficult to believe that he was referring to the duplicity. The comment was as follows;
“and we all know that he’s (Bush) going out of that position and Barack Obama is going to be taking over.”
I don’t think that i’m wrong to assume that this was considered by the DCM to be significant to the effect of the joke.
Pedantically my comment should read as follows;
Concerning G Flouquets remark “and we all know that he’s (Bush) going out of that position and Barack Obama is going to be taking over.” followed with ‘I didn’t realize the racial undertone.’ Those remarks are a contradiction of terms.
I honestly don’t think that if my comment was rephrased to the above that the contradiction would be nullified or any other or different inference could be drawn.
Report abuse
Am i wrong in thinking the origin of WOG was the meaning Western Oriental Gentleman referring to the days of the Raj?
which in effect is a compliment or narrative on a race like scot, welsh and dare i say it yank.
This whole topic will rumble forever that is for sure but i am disspaointed by the personal attacks by commentors in this column on those merely expressing their opinion, some will say to try and make an argument but i doubt it in many cases.
Report abuse
Tom,
the origin of ‘wog’ is obscure; it may be an acronym (worthy oriental gentleman) or it may derive from golliwog.
Whatever, the term is not a compliment. It is highly offensive, and about as strong as ‘nigger’.
However, these words are sometimes context-dependent. Many years ago I was astonished to hear a mother pushing her pram and leaning forwards to say proudly and lovingly to the little occupant “you little bugger”.
Steven,
yes it can be argued both ways. Only Bernard knows for sure what he meant (?).
Report abuse
DC
Thanks I’ve Googled it now too, I should have done that first instead of getting caught up in this nonsense.
Report abuse