Car ‘tax’ is doomed, says man who asked for it…
Saturday 7th February 2009, 9:30AM GMT.
Dave Finn, left, Kerry Rayson and Mark Finn of Avis Hire Cars, which faces spending £13,000 on parking authorisations for its fleet and then clawing it back from customers if the States approves Environment’s £26-per-permit proposal. (Picture by Peter Frankland, 0716292)
ENVIRONMENT does not believe the States will accept its paid parking proposal.
Minister Peter Sirett told the Guernsey Press yesterday that he would be ‘very surprised’ if the Assembly approved a £26-per-year fee for parking throughout the island.
Instead, Deputy Sirett believes deputies will again lack the decisiveness to act.
‘My biggest concern is that the States will yet again prevaricate,’ he said. ‘We need a decision from the States. If people do not want these parking discs, then someone else needs to think of something better. I will be very surprised if the States passes this report without any amendments.
‘I have been in so many States meetings about paid parking. We as a department just want to get on with the job and if it’s not this system and someone wants to come up with a better one, we would happily implement it. We just want to take action.’
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When are the States going to realise the public do not want paid parking. They created the problem of funding the Bus company and just like the Dutch elm disease they have wasted thousands of pounds.The only way to get people out of there cars is to have snow.The States will never get us all on the buses.If by some miacle they did then because of the loss of income from paid parking the bus fares would become very expensive and so we would go back to are cars.
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If we are going to have paid parking, three words: “Pay and Display” It’s the only fair solution for paid parking and is relatively easy to implement and enforce.
How much States time has been wasted discussing this issue? Either bite the bullet and implement it or scrap it once and for all but please stop wasting so much States time debating it.
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Put it on petrol that way the biggest guzzlers get hit- not popular however with the Bentley crew.
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And this from the Hire Car companies that benefited when road tax was abolished. I assume they didn’t give that benefit to charity.
Ok, changed my ind about this. I support the principle of generating revenue for the bus service, easiest and cheapest way is stick it on fuel.
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This solution has to be by far the most fair that our beloved States is likely to propose. Whether we like it or not, in our society we pay money to our government through direct and indirect taxation irregardless of the level of benefit we derive from it at the other end. Without this system, our society would be very much the poorer for it as infrastructure, social care etc would surely suffer. Put into context, £26 a year for drivers to pay is absolutely nothing – we pay much more to enjoy the privileges of motoring without so much outrage!
The whole island, including government themselves, will acknowledge that the public transport system in place here is not perfect – where is it? – and I admit that I have not used a bus in Guernsey for at least 10 years now and am unlikely to ever want to. Buses would not get me into work on time in the morning and neither would they give me sufficient time in my lunchtime to get out of town, pick up my child, drop him off at home and get back into town. So I drive and I park in town out of necessity. Even if I want to pop to any of the island shops, I generally drive and park at them – I doubt I am alone in this.
There are those who will argue that the States got it wrong in the first place; allowing the financial and retail sectors to grow up in the same limited space, poor use of public resources to implement an effective public transportation network, etc. etc. but we cannot change this. We have to make the most of what we have got and that means we have to continually adapt our ideas and thoughts as our society adapts.
I have no issue with paying £26 per year to buy a parking clock because I know that everybody who wants to use Guernsey’s public car-parking facilities will pay the same to enjoy the same privilege – the casual driver who pops into town once a year, the daily town worker and even the CEO who enjoys a parking space under the office. Can you say fairer than that?
Surely the bigger issues here are ensuring that cost increases are fair (to ensure that £26 in the first year cannot turn into £100 next year and £200 the year after that), that paying such a tax cannot preclude some of us from certain parking spaces because of the size of our car and, most importantly in my mind, that the income generated is deployed in the right way.
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Seriously its about time they stopped debating it and just got on with it. If we lived in the UK or Jersey we would pay much more than £26 a year which to be fair is only 50p a week is a brilliant solution.
If people want services in the island the money has to come from somewhere. Yes I would prefer not to pay income tax and have the extra money in my salary but I much prefer the idea of having the brilliant health service we have and education system.
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At the last General Election the overwhelming number of successful candidates made it quite clear that they did not support paid parking.
I hope any proposal for paid parking is thrown out and I was proud of the fact that throughout my time in the States paid parking ideas never even got this far.
Like many, I believe that increasing the tax on fuel is the only fair way of raising the money to fund our bus services. The polluter pays principle has to be more environmentally friendly these ill thought through proposals which tax some drivers but not others.
Tony Webber
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Why is it that Guernsey folk view unpaid parking to be a basic human right? In many other places, particularly the UK, parking has to be paid for. Therefore when visitors come to Guernsey it is quite a surprise to them that they don’t have to pay.
Ultimately the parking areas are States property and as such they do need to be paid for. The £26 per year is such a small contribution that it is unlikely even to cover the costs of running and policing such a scheme. 50p a week is a ridiculously low figure, 50p an hour would be more realistic. Surely it is more fair to adopt a ‘user pays’ policy where parking is paid for on an hourly basis by those people wishing to use it. People are seemingly happy to pay for mooring their boats.
Port permit holders have to pay £500 a year to park and they are not even guaranteed a place to park. Surely this is also States property so why do one section of the public have to pay while another does not. Incidentally the rate for this year has increased by 74% from 2008. Also if people already have a port permit to park on States land will they still have to pay this additional amount to park in other public carparks?
Paid parking will not kill tourism nor will it kill town centre shopping. Visitors do not base their holiday decision on the fact that Guernsey currently has free parking. Also where else are people able to go to do their shopping other than St Peter Port? So the notion that people will suddenly boycott town and travel to some vast out-of-town shopping complex is an absolute nonsense.
I fail to see why States Deputies have adopted the policies of zero 10 but are then unable to make the seemingly contentious decisions that go with it. Paid parking is nowhere near as contentious and emotive as closing schools so why is it being blown up into such a big issue. If people want to own cars and park them on States property then they should have to pay for the privilege, as do other users fo States property.
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A.Driver,
Do you really think that Guernsey people do not already pay for parking ? … the car parks miraculously appear ? the traffic wardens work for free ? the white lines paint themselves ?
Just keep things simple and add the cost to the fuel tax.
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Jamie
So you do feel free parking to be a basic human right.
I assume you feel you already pay enough income tax to cover free parking island wide then. I personally think current taxes should be put towards the most essential services for our community, such as education, healthcare, policing etc etc. Painting the white lines as you put it is already subsidised by the states and these areas much surely run at a loss.
If I don’t oftern use public carparks why should I have to suffer paying more for my litre of petrol. Let those people who want to use parking pay for it, surely that is only fair.
It is a question of priorities Jamie. What do yo feel is more important, providing good healthcare and education or subsidising your parking space?
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I would have thought that in the time that the States have been debating and thereby wasing more of our cash, Pay and Display machines could have been installed…
Its a tried and tested method in several major cities – surely its not that difficult to sort out is it??
And lets not mix up the issues… the polluter pays was the previous road tax arguement – The parker pays should be kept separate.
It doesnt detract however from the fact that the motorist is and always will be an easy target for raising revenue.. I’m suprised that we dont have to pay per mile we walk – and where is our pushbike tax – that must be worth a few quid too eh?
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Pay and display wouldn’t be too bad, but costs too much, simple as that. Cost of machinery in addition to that of policing, plus cash collections.
This new idea is barmy. Rather than making the parker pay, we disproportionately make those infrequent users of the parking pay as much as those using the spaces 9 hrs a day, 5 days a week. some will get 2000 hrs plus for their £26. Others may only get an hour or two.
Plus, having paid for my parking, there’s no guarantee of a space! Jersey’s system is equally unfair – pay first, then hunt for a space. I already do my bit, and rent one just for me. But if I can’t get to it because of roadworks, will I get a dispensation to use the public parks?
Best left alone.
Chuck it out and leave parking free. Most regular parkers get the odd ticket anyway, and pay already.
If paid parking was such a great idea, the states would already be charging states members and civil servants, wouldn’t they?
I’d not subsidise the buses, either.
It’s like all these cyclists causing untold environmental harm, as they, along with the buses hold up the traffic, reducing the fuel efficiency of other peoples’ commute.
If they really want cash, put it on fuel. Ironically, though, a parked car burns no juice. We should be encouraging parking, rather than creating additional mini rush-hours as people shuffle their cars about.
Let’s not pretend that this makes the remotest sense environmentally.
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dont do it next step would be rip off parking fees and wheel clamping just like the uk you have been warned !!
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A.Driver,
”
So you do feel free parking to be a basic human right.
I assume you feel you already pay enough income tax to cover free parking island wide then.”
Perhaps my reply wasn’t clear enough. Tax is currently paid for road and infrastructure (parking) through income tax and fuel tax. If this is insufficient then increase the fuel tax. As far as I am concerned we do not park for free as that is being paid for through our taxes.
” I personally think current taxes should be put towards the most essential services for our community, such as education, healthcare, policing etc etc.”
Thats a completely different debate to be honest. If the services for these are insufficient then Income Tax / Social security should be raised to provide a better service.
“If I don’t oftern use public carparks why should I have to suffer paying more for my litre of petrol.”
If I have private health cover, don’t use education services, claim benefits etc etc then why should I suffer paying the same social service costs as people that do use these services? – I hate answering a question with a question but i truly believe that the best way to resolve this is to just take more fuel tax. Perhaps it is a generalization to assume that people that use more fuel are also likely to utilise parking more often but I think it probably does correlate.
We must also remember that the other stated objective to a parking fee is to try to reduce congestion (by making public transport more attractive). I don’t really see a £26 fee having any effect at all. Increase fuel taxes and you would do more to encourage people into more fuel efficient vehicles, use the bicycle / bus , electric vehicle, car share etc etc.
What about those small car spaces at the crown … would you get a discount for using those ? Their implementation was a good idea and incentive. Charge £26 and the incentive seems wasted.
What about all the organisations with private parking spaces, they wont be affected and it would have zero impact on their commuting habits.
Obviously the maintenance of a car park does cost but as a proportion of general road and infrastructure costs I expect that percentage to be very small. If the revenue raised from a parking fee were in anyway to be greater than the actual cost of maintenance then this just ends up being a stealth tax so why not just add the tax to the fuel and be done with it?
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I would gladly pay this – but on one condition…. Guarantee me a parking place & you get my pennies….
If I paid £26 & couldnt get a space I would not be impressed…. I cant see how the states can even be thinking about this when there is a parking problem… You dont offer a window cleaning service if your brushes are not in order do you?!
We desperately need 5 hour spaces for those that work part time… 3 hour are no good & people that work 4-5 hours a day are parking in 10 hour spots – why wont the states listen?? People have been saying this for years but still nothing!!
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Paid parking in whatever form is an indirect tax. This tax is then used to subsidise the bus service which gets us out of our cars and the world is a better place.
Except that it won’t work.
This whole issue needs to be thought through properly. What are we trying to acheive? Is it reduction of car usage, reduction in CO2 emmissions, revenue increase?
I guess its all three (and more) no doubt.
Lets have a look at CO2 to start with. The current buses are huge with dirty great diesel engines. I doubt they get 5mpg out of them and the CO2 discharge must be frightening – judging by an enormous diesel 4X4 and factoring that up to a bus your looking at 800grms plus of CO2 per km. Eeek! Thats more polluting (per passenger) than eight Prius’ with just the driver. Or seven diesel Fiesta’s etc. Therefore buses must have an occupancy of 8 plus passengers for them to compete environmentally with the best cars out there.
The current bus service is a good alternative to many car journeys for many people but it will never be a total solution – fact of life.
If revenue needs to be raised to fund a public transport system so be it. But paid parking is a myopic solution – it solves nothing.
Grab the bullbar by the metaphorical horns and actively encourage more environmentally friendly vehicles in association with the bus service.
What about reintroducing road tax but make it free for vehicles with less that 150 CO2′s and have a sliding scale upwards – you then raise revenue by taxing the most polluting vehicles both in punative tax and tax on fuel.
Also add in an MOT for vehicles over 3 years old (which can done as part of the annual service) – a tenner to the States for that!
So there you are we’ve raised taxes by making the polluter really pay.
And nobody is paying to park. Easy.
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Gilthead,
Whilst I see what you are trying to achieve, your suggestions would probably cost as much to run as they would take in. Resulting in no addittional revenue to the states and no benefit to the community as a result.
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Jamie
It would have to be costed – of course.
But the question remains – what are we trying to achieve?
Paid parking and/or an increase in fuel duty alone do not address the wider issues. They would only penalise those without a private parking space and those who rely on private transport to go about their business.
The frankly ludicrous suggestion of the £26 parking tax won’t stop Mr or Mrs X charging round the island in their Range Rover Sport pumping out bucket loads of CO2 will it?
A £2000 a year environmet tax might!
The said parking tax won’t stop any of the highly dangerous (and polluting) unmaintained cars/vans either.
An MOT would.
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I take my family to the cinema,I pay my £26 only to find there are no seats left. Do I just go home dissapointed ? No, I demand my money back.
Imagine the admin costs involved when people write in for a refund when they can’t park because a pier has been taken over by the tenerfest,or power boats,or a French market,or interminable roadworks ( why do they take so LONG ? )
At least the airport has an overspill parking area to accomodate those people who can’t use the bus service when they travel abroad.
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Gilthead. You asked: “What are we trying to achieve?” Whereas i think the real question is what is deputy Peter Sirett and the Environment Department trying to achieve?
Peter Sirett actually gives us a clue in what he told the Gsy Press. Quote: “We just want to take action.” So is the answer that they have a burning need to justify their existence and need to be seen to be doing something? I would doubt it as there is plenty on their plate to be getting on with.
Peter Sirett also said: “We as a department just want to get on with the job and if it’s not this system and someone wants to come up with a better one, we would happily implement it.” But as you point out Gilhead for anyone to come up with a solution they would need to understand the problem. So with respect Joel de Woolfson would you mind getting back to deputy Sirett and asking him for us?
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Steven – indeed you are correct “what are we trying to acheive?”.
As you appear to suggest its doing “something” for somethings sake. Paying to park will solve nothing unless there is a purpose.
And as we don’t really know what the purpose is there therefore is no purpose.
Enough said really.
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Let’s ask ourselves: what are we trying to achieve?
If we want to reduce rush hour traffic and free up parking spaces in town, then the best way is to target people who are driving into town in the rush hour and parking there all day.
This means per day/hour paid parking (and we’re not talking 10p an hour, since that isn’t a disincentive – it would have to be nearer 50p), some kind of rationing system (like the nightmarish odd/even number plate system used in Athens), a better public transport system (more buses going to more places at more times), or some kind of combination of these. Not very palatable ideas, are they? Hence the fact none have been implemented, and why I predict that clogged up roads and vast car parks full of vehicles will continue indefinitely.
If we want to cover the cost of providing parking spaces, then we need a system that is easy to administer, and targets people who drive cars. Parking meters and attendants cost lots of money. Expensive discs leads to people being tempted to cheat, and therefore needing to pay for parking attendants to check. The simplest solution is to charge more fuel tax, since fuel use is roughly correlated with parking space use and ability to pay.
But since any change requires a good deal of political courage and an ability to take flak from those hit adversely by the change, here’s my prediction: no change, or inadequate fudge.
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hold on – if you bring in paid parking what will happen to the traffic warrens – more people out of work, also the states cannot say they do not get a decent revenue already from free parking as so many people get traffic tickets and at the current £30 per time it would be interesting to know how much revenue is currently rec’d this way. This then pays for the upkeep etc. Keep the island unique –
if you want more spaces the states should put a nice granite lid on the north beach making this 2, 3 and 5 hour and the underneath 10hr but paid 10hr (whereby you are guaranteed a space i.e. ticket before you go in (like in st malo) if priced properly this will pay for work to put the lid on the top within a few years. Also creating long term additional parking.
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Alison
Good idea about using the income to build another storey on North Beach but please stop rabbiting on about the traffic warrens
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Alison,
I highly doubt that the revenue brought in through fixed penalties covers the cost in issueing them in the first place (cost of wardens etc etc). Heaven forbid what it costs the taxpayer to take someone to court that has failed to pay their parking fine.
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let’s carry on and leave things as they are.
Those who do not like free parking,the heavy rush hour traffic and the alleged slightly dodgy bus system could always sod off to pastures green.
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Schools are out this week.
See if you notice any difference to the traffic.
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I rarely use disc parks, prefering buses and cycle. But if I pay £26 for the few times I need to park, then I’m going to get the best value for it and drive in every day.
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Ray
More’s the point, will the car parks still be full at 9am? Probably. Schools only mean that everyone travels at the same time because you can’t choose when you leave the children. It highlights the need for a comprehensive car use survey. Guernsey is small, there must be some way of making the connection between unnecessary journeys and public transport, between paying for convenience and the need to be somewhere and between competent decision making and sustainability.
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Ray – good post. Sums up my feeling entirely.
No one ever wants to pay more for anything. If environment really want to get people out of their cars and onto public transport they have to do two things. Buy more buses and improve/increase the routes.
There is not a real traffic problem over here apart from between 8-9am and 5-6 pm. The school run at 3.30 is not too hectic.
There will be people for whom public transport will not work and perhaps putting tax on fuel is the best thing to do – certainly easier and less expensive to administer than a complicated pay as you park system.
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