‘Local jobs for local people’
Wednesday 11th February 2009, 2:30PM GMT.
Carpenter and joiner Adrian Rowe has been looking for work since before Christmas and is prepared to take anything. (Picture by Peter Frankland, 071868
A RALLYING cry has gone out for companies to give jobs to local workers as unemployment reaches its highest level since the early 1990s.
The number of people out of work in Guernsey has climbed to 411 and is expected to rise further as the recession bites.
Last month, 343 people were registered as unemployed – at this time last year, the figure was 255.
Both Social Security minister Mark Dorey and Housing minister Dave Jones stressed it was not a time for panic, but called on employers to act responsibly.
‘We will expect you to make a real effort in trying to secure local employees from the jobless pool before any consideration to licences is given,’ said Deputy Jones.
He stressed it was not a complete block to issuing licences, nor was it possible to set targets.
‘But we will look at sectors of our economy where there are people available and reduce licences accordingly,’ he added.
One target would be retail after the collapse of Woolworths, but it had to be kept in perspective.
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Can anyone explain why so many non-local people are employed in various industries when there are Guernsey people unemployed?
What is the point of the “right to work” permit when anybody can work in non-skilled jobs. Whilst Guernsey people are unwilling to work in catering, mainly because they don’t want to work antisocial hours, there are hundreds non-locals in the building trade etc.
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The truth hurts. Some donkeys simply don’t like working evenings or weekends. So market forces apply. Enter the eastern european cavalry. Happy to get their hands grubby, earn top local dollar and laugh all the way to the Latvian bank.
Local jobs for local staff – yes OK, only if they want the local jobs!
You can’t have your Guernsey Gache and eat it!
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From research i had done in the past i thought that the rules on these tempory licenses were that they were only for roles in Tourism and Horticulture/agriculture.
When did this change? Or has it just been convieniently forgotten over the last few years so shops can get in on the cheap foreign labour market.
Having recently spent a lot of time looking for ways to bring in a foreigner to work and live in the island (my partner) i’m pretty sure all these people haven’t had to jump through the number of hoops we had to.
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Latvian Lovely
You are so right.
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I agree with Latvian. You locals should be thankful that outsiders want to do the jobs you dont want. Without us you would be starving and sober.
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Im from the mainland and agree that the locals in Guernsey should be given jobs before outsiders,and at the same time British jobs should be given to British workers first.Gregory says that locals are not willing to work anti social hours,well I just wish I had the chance to work those hours ,here where I live there is not even those jobs available due to to many outsiders flooding in.
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Sometimes outside labour is required and yes it was more common years ago within the local industries but now with finance ruining everything and too many eggs in one basket there are less of these workers needed. However now with the ever increasing supermarkets being built for every 500 people they can continue to employ outside staff. This is fine but i must admit the locals dont help themselves. there are loads of them that cant be bothered to help themselves and find it to easy to sign on and its people like alot of the working class and the non locals who are prepared to work countless hours to try and make ends meet.
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As the levels or unemployment rise, people will be more willing to work less skilled manual jobs. This will also create a divide, up until now why would a local want to work a bar when he could work a bank? Now it’s a case of “I can’t work a bank, I’ll work a bar” but when he cant due to Latvians / Portuguese and others having local jobs, there will be angst, and licenses wont be given, and you will have to go home, oh well.
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If only life was that simple. I am professional person and I have had experience of companies only paying lip service to recruiting a local. From the beginning they have assumed they won’t find a local with the such special skills they believe they need. They get the local licence from the beginning and they intend to use. Rather than give a local person the chance to prove themselves. These are well known locally based companies. Forget about this being a blue collar/manual worker issue, it’s an issue in the Finance and Commerical sector all the way to the top.
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I am a local Guernseyman but Latvian Lovely has a point. Many locals simply would not do some of the jobs held by foreign workers – some of whom work antisocial hours in comparitively poor conditions for pay many locals wouldn’t get out of bed for. Of course given the current economic climate this may change in time, in which case one would expect priority to go to suitable local workers.
Then there is the work ethic – although not true across the board, many people brought in from abroad are hard workers, very skilled and grateful for the opportunity to earn a living.
Finally, they also add a multicultural feel to the island, reminding us that we’re part of a broader picture. The island would be culturally worse off without them in my opinion.
J – in response to your point, perhaps some of those foreign workers have married locals, in which case they have the same right to work as a local. My wife for example is non-local yet qualified to work anywhere by right of marriage.
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The reality here is that it totally depends on the industry and position involved. If you are looking to recruit at a position where a candidate can clearly be identified from the unemployment pool then great and I would hope most employers would look there first.
Unfortunately, the positions are often not suitable for any of the unemployed (due to skills, qualifications, experience etc etc) and when this is the case, licences should be granted quickly and prudently because this is the only way Guernsey will remain competitive and seen as a good place to maintain a business.
Lack of skilled staff is always viewed as an issue in a small Island like Guernsey so it is important that the government do not make things worse by being too obstructive with licences.
And before the accusations start, I am not advocating a mass of licences being issued just those where the facts involved clearly warrant it.
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If there are local skilled workers who are unemployed then the building companies should be made to replace their non local staff with local workers. For example, how much imported labour is actually being used on the sites in St. Julians avenue and the former Royal hotel. The larger building companies have been bringing in non local labour for years and this has the effect of undercutting local labour rates. The cost of living doesnt go down in Guernsey so why should local workers be forced to work for less. This problem is already happening in the UK where cheap foreign labour is being used in preference to local people.
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I suggest that if all you foreign workers are so fantastic, you go home and help to sort your own countries’ economies out, which are in desperate trouble. I have no problem with foreign workers whatsoever, but don’t think for a minute that the island couldn’t manage without you. The main reason that foreign labour has been imported in the past is due to a combination of availability and cost, not skills. As the old saying goes, don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
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I agree using foreign cheap labour has helped destroy many a great nation take a look at the UK.
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The British Empire was built by foreign workers, as were our great Victorian infrastructure advances.
As is our finance industry.
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The title of this piece may as well haveen taken from Royston Vasey! ‘Local jobs for local people.’ As somebody who has worked all over the world and who has tried to immerse himself in local life for the past 25 years I can tell you now that most Guerns are bone idol, lazy, they moan too much and are in all honesty a couple of pound notes short of a tenner! We should all be very grateful to our Latvian / Polish friends. On behalf of the people I say open the floodgates to our Eastern European friends and lets ship off some of our idol local workforce. Our island has benefited tremendously from the influx of international workers.
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I agree completely with Another Guern abroad | February 12, 2009 at 2:05 am
If the states want to reduce unemployment then ways of increasing the skills of the local unemployed need to be looked at. Small courses in the hospitality industry etc as well as apprenticeship/traineeships etc should be encouraged – regardless of the age of the applicant.
Lets face it, most of the island are 2nd/3rd generation immigrants, why not send them packing too?
Any sane employer would much prefer the simple procedure to employ an equivalently skilled local rather than jump through hoops to bring people in on this complex licensing system. The idea that some think that they do otherwise is beyond my comprehension.
If a company is experiencing growth (in this current economic climate) and needs skills which definitely cannot be found in Guernsey then i cant see anything wrong with bringing in some license holders (at least they will pay tax) and more importantly it may lead to more local job opportunities in the future. If industry is not supported then it will lead to job losses for locals – not more jobs for locals.
Dont get me wrong, i am not advocating more and more licenses and i believe that companys should (and mostly do) always look locally first; but when skills cannot be found on the island, then it is sensible to support industry by taking a flexible approach and consider Geurnseys economic stability in hard times such as these.
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Well isn’t this a surprise. All those closet “liberal/racists” start to come wandering out of their 15-20 pound per hour closets, rallying together to point the finger. Bernard isn’t the only one with a few demons to wrangle with. Nobody complained when times were/(are still) good, when poorly educated 17 year olds could walk into a basic clerical job and earn good money, precisely because those doing the most basic of jobs, getting their hands dirty were “outsiders”.
I’d still like someone to discern the difference between locals and non-locals. Will we be judging on surnames or other cridentials, or perhaps second generation or third generation immigrants will also fall into the criteria?
And of course don’t forget the opinions of “pedigree”, English immigrants, some of whom are disqualifying anyone of eastern-European descent.
Guernsey benefits financially from treasuring that which has been earned overseas. A little simbiois keeps up the appearances whilst at the same time momentarily cleanses a very dark collective conscience.
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RE: Andy| February 12, 2009 at 8:49 am
Don’t forget your history: Britain’s “greatness” was largely built on the British Empire – meaning that the majority of its wealth came from its foreign colonial interests. Many of the immigrants into the UK (especially before the EU) came from the former colonies.
So, when blaming immigrants for the loss of British “greatness” it is worth remembering that the use of their people, land, wealth and resources played a large part in making it “great” in the first place!
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Why employ a local lay about. When you can employ a hard working Latvians/Portuguese. For half the cost and double to work. They turn up in the morning when need them, they want to work as many hours as you can give them, never argue about doing overtime or complain about conditions. They’re great. As to the housing permit.. when you know the system, there dead easy to get around.. So why employ a local
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Can someone please tell me the system, I have been trying to move to Guernsey for years, is what they are doing legal I ask myself
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Local Employer ,so IF its as true as you say that the Latvian/Portuguese work twice as hard as the locals why do you only pay them only half of the cost of the true wage ? sounds to me that people like you are taking advantage of them !
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Maybe because the states give out so much money to people who dont work and are on benefits. And because most Guerns are to stuck up to want to do the ‘horrible’ jobs. So as Local employer said, why employ a lazy local, for more then a hard working foreigner.
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When there are plenty of jobs on the market fell free to bring in foreign labour to fill the gaps.
When there are a shortage of jobs bringing in more short term labour just adds to the problem.
People are having a go at locals for not wanting to do the “dirty” jobs. Why should we when there are other jobs that need people. If i can get a job in a bank earning £10 am i lazy for not taking the shop or bar work paying £5 an hour.
The people who agree with my side of the argument are not racist as some of you are trying to imply (a tactic which has been used by so many people to scare people into not standing up). we’re just saying that If a job can be filled by someone already here why grant licenses to someone outside of the island.
I’m not advocating kicking people out with no notice, but when their (hopefully) temporary license comes to an end, don’t renew it if it can be filled by a local
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For the overwhelming majority of people who have lost (or will lose) their jobs in the current downturn I can only offer my heartfelt commiserations. It doesn’t matter whether they are locals or immigrant workers – I got made redundant back in the 80′s and I do know what it is like.
However, there is small but irritating minority of local tradesmen who, for years, have had more work than they can cope with and as a result they have treated us, their customers, with utter contempt.
That minority has got away with overcharging us for years – they have started jobs two months late (usually blaming it on the wrong materials being sent from England) – and then finished those same jobs another two months behind schedule (or not finished them at all) – you know the tradesmen I mean – the one’s disappear down the pub at 3.30 on a Friday afternoon and leave your house looking like a bombsite.
For that minority the torture of spending their days in front of Richard and Judy is no less than they deserve. Maybe – just maybe – they will learn to treat their customers with a little respect.
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Sorry – the end of my earlier post is missing:
For that minority the torture of spending their days in front of Richard and Judy is no less than they deserve. Maybe – just maybe – they will learn to treat their custoemrs with a little respect.
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Local employer does have a point; my experience of working Eastern europeans is that they are a) diligent b) educated and c)…um, usualy prettier. So on the manual and catering front I completely concur. My husband’s buiness has had, in the past, experience of Social Security ‘job seekers’ turn up just to tick a box, not get the job and continue getting benefit. Equally, however, that isn’t indicative of all levels of employing locals but at the ‘lover level, thems the facts. Eastern Europeans over locals any day of the week.
Moving on. Here is Guernsey’s problem. It’s a bit late flying the ‘employ local’ flag. There are less and less jobs about. I truly hope that an ‘employ locals’ campaign isn’t the start of underlying xenephobia. Best people for the best jobs, local or otherwise please.
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But why pay the “Foreigner” less if they work harder than the “stuck up” local??? Fairs Fair Eh !??
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..and sure there are out of work locals who do work hard but could not survive on half the wage,(the amount Local employer claims the non locals are paid). Could you ?
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Andy,
“I agree using foreign cheap labour has helped destroy many a great nation take a look at the UK”…
very wise though!
and this foreign cheap labour is called Mr. Credit Crunch…
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It is true that there are local unemployed people who could do some of these jobs – but they choose not to because they can get as much money from the social security for doing nothing.
This island has been served well by guest workers, most of whom work extremely hard, are polite and work for the minimum wage. They are saving hard in order to give themselves a better life when they go back home – I applaud them.
If i was an employer would i prefer to employ someone who was trustworthy but required a licence or some lazy local who was continually late, sullen and lazy? It is a difficult call. Social Security should stop paying people benefits when they unemployed through their own fault. Make them do community service or something to ensure they get out of bed in the mornings and they will soon learn that in order to survive they have to work for a living.
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I say lets get rid of all non-locals and that is mostly aimed at the english. True Guerns were by far better off before the finance took over and destroyed what our island is all about. The sooner this industry collapses the better, leaving only the true locals to rebuild their lives around all the industries that made us! As for all the supermarkets/forecourt shoppers going up for every 500 people. Sort this out, its not a monopoly board, leave our island alone!!!!!!!!
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Phil – you do talk out of your derierre.
Crown Prosecution in Guernsey – mainly managed by non-locals.
Most of legal system in Guernsey – managed by non-locals.
Police – many senior officers, non-local.
Senior Management positions – some non-local.
Specialists in health, finance and law enforcement, non-local.
Why is this? Because they are better qualified.
If we went by your rules Phil half of the Bouet would be in court deciding on whether to apply Boyles Law instead of Regina v Smith.
Latvian lady has the right context.
I believe Guernsey have their cake and eat it – who in their right mind would want to come to this place just for 3 or 5 years only to have to leave; it’s a travesty.
In any case – locals for the last 10 years believe they have been owed a living; interesting to see how it will go now there is competition for jobs……
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Ok all you Xenaphobic Guerns – give us all a definition…what is a true Guern?
I’d love to hear Geoff’s view!
Gilthead – born in Guernsey.
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I have a highly skilled job that pays well above average. I pay my tax and SI and feel strongly that that money – my hard-earned cash – should be spent sensibly.
Social handouts are not, in my book, sensible. A week of my salary every month goes to tax – Why should I work a week “for nothing”*, just to pay for “locals” to sit around playing Xbox and watchign Richard and Judy?
I would rather see “locals” in jobs, but whilst they price themselves out of jobs by being too lazy, then bring in the foreigners.
If the States want to see unemployment decline, they need to reduce the handouts they give so that it’s actually worth going out. At the moment, there’s no incentive. I spent years learning the skills that my job requires, and got that by working any available job, including cleaning filthy pub toilets and unsociable hours.
All this local vs non-local is arguably unproductive – we all live in a community – and it’s only right that everyone contributes in whatever way that they are able. If Jonny Poland or Jenny Latvia are happy to come here and work hard then I say welcome them with open arms, and ship those 400 others out of here.
* I know it’s not totally for nothing as I benefit from various other social services.
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@Geoff
I’ve never heard such rubbish. Atleast 90% of peoples jobs in this island are directly or indirectly linked to the finance industry.
When the finance industry does get push out of the island the impact will be immense and there will not be a household in the island that isn’t affected.
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@Gilthead
Why are we Xenophobic for saying local jobs for local people?
Why should the states give out licenses for more people to come into the island when there are people who want to work already here without a job.
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I’m as local as they come, our family are employers and are of the same opinion as a few of these posts about the expectancy of the local work force. Because they breathe they believe they are special and owed a job and a higher salary than their skill sets would provide anywhere else in the world.
Some of the smugness needs wiping off the faces of the local workforce; case in point the current airport problem. What did that idiot say on Radio Guernsey – I assue he was a firefighter rep. ‘average house values are 400k’ – and that was his whole argument. Envy and greed.
We see that everywhere else in our society to a greater or lesser degre. In a small way I’m looking forward to a contraction in the economy; just so some people are forced to have a perspective.
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Geoff
Why dont you just move to Alderney???
It seems like thats exactly what you want!
You also seemingly forget (or dont know) that most of the industries that “made us”, are seriously struggling because of the cost of cheap imports from elsewhere in the world.
I think you’ll find if Guernsey’s finance sector did collapse the island would be in one hell of a serious mess and the industries that existed prior to Finance would not be healthy enough to really help.
So ditch the Xenophobia, its “True Guerns” like you who accepted the nice wealthy banks and their trappings in the first place, and I have no doubt that a lot of these True Guerns made a fair bit of cash out of it too.
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most of the comments made by J, gregory and the like are absolute drivel. i work in retail and my record for employing locals speaks for itself. here are some facts, I’ve had a job at the job centre advertised since well before Christmas:- no local applicants. I have asked the job centre to do a search for suitable employees:- no response.i have set up two job interviews this week without the aid of the job centre with local people you’ve guest it neither turned up for the interview.most local people do not want to do the hours required to run large retail businesses. you want to go shopping at 8.00a.m or on Sunday, late evenings and bank holidays you want to go out for a meal etc who is going to serve you? mostly guest workers. you cannot critisize local people for trying to pick what jobs they do and what hours they do so how can you critisize guest workers for doing what the locals wont. By the way all you local racists out there might want to consider thanking all the guest workers for the £6.7 million pounds a year they put into the social insurance fund to help pay the local old age pensioners a pension, a pension the vast majority of guest workers will never qualify for.Kevin.
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by the way my firm pays top rates for retail and guest workers are paid exactly the same as locals.kevin.
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J – I agree with you! Wholeheartedly!
Just asking the question “what is a Guern?”. A lot of these threads get comments such as Geoff’s above which shouldn’t go unchallenged. Also others are made by, perhaps, more intellectual people who say in sweeping terms that all of the finance industrry is evil, car drivers are the spawn of Satan etc etc.
All made without reason, logic and, at times, knowledge.
Without “English” people like my parents moving here in the sixties (etc) Geoff would have to light his fire in his cave the Ray Mears way, marry a close relative and sire severely malformed offspring due to the dwindling gene pool.
Of course it was better before finance – especially horticulture – but bear in mind the most successful were Dutch. Hmmm.
Anyway I digress. What is a true Guern? Is it second generation by birth? Is it surname?
Names are a good one – good fine Guernsey names: Falla (Spanish), Ogier (Danish) etc etc. Following the Bronze Age settlements on the islands I would suspect that a true Guern is a decendent of the Celtic migrations into western Europe 2 odd thousand years ago. Funnily enough these people may have originated in Eastern Europe.
I consider myself a Guernsey person and love the islands with a passion – I know many true Guernsey people who are kind, open and friendly. And resiliant.
The “Guern” as referred to by Geoff (English name of Germanic origin) is an insular fool – who is unable to see past their, not insubstantial, hooters.
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Kevin, There are a few hundred Guernsey people out of work at the moment. The rest of us have gone out and found a job and i’m sure most of us work very hard at it.
Luckily we have been in a situation of full employment for a number of years (note that full employment means all those who want to work have a job, not that everyone has a job) and we have had to bring in people from outside of the island to fill in the Gaps on a temporary basis. I have absolutely no problem with this.
In the present economic climate there is a chance that unemployment could rise fairly rapidly and hard working locals (definitionor locals:people with a permanant license to live here) will be on the job market and willing to work jobs which in the past they have seen as below them.
In these circumstances why should outsiders be brought in?
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j we work in the here and now customers demand good service no-one will provide that service if job vacancies remain unfilled so that at some unspecified time in the future a local person may or may not be available to fill that vacancy. Get real!
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>>The “Guern” as referred to by Geoff (English name of Germanic origin) is an insular fool – who is unable to see past their, not insubstantial, hooters.<< LMAO, very funny.
I’ll add to the origin of ‘Guern’. It’s a word the English used as a pejoritive term for what since tie immemorial have been Guernseymen. English import word for us locals.
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Guernsey girl working in UK. Owww lots of racism going on……..Gregory…..a job, is a job. If the Guerns really wanted to work, they would work. Waiting tables and washing dishes. Less face it hey do you need to go out of at night if you aint been working you, wont have the cash to go out. I do agree that if your are a skilled worker then you might want to try to continue in a skilled job. I cannot see a problem with the single mother brigade working some nights to feed the troops….surely a family member could baby sit of a night if they were working in the day……or a father. Unless they have stash of cash and have paid a couple of grand for “man not included.com” services! Totally agreed Latvian Lovely.
I do know how people get around the system and I do know the prices (1200 a month plus bills) that foreign people pay for a room only with shared kitchen and shower with possibly 10 others. I wouldn’t do that, so fair play. A pounds, a pounds and if the going rate is £7 an hour then that’s the wage…Guernsey/Latvian/Polish. I work with loads of internationals from Afghanistan men to Somali women. And as for the fire persons wife moaning that he only gets £27,000 base wage a year without over time………….ow are! I just about get that and im a manager.
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Dey took our jerbs!
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We have now reached a point in Gsy where the locals are discriminated against by their fellow Guerns and dare a local speak out of turn. We may be facing the biggest recession we have ever known which in turn will create unemployment, debt, homes being repossessed, severe poverty, increase in crime and possible civil unrest never seen in Gsy. Our islands been destroyed by the influx of english/Latvian & Portuguese who feel it is their island and right to take a local job who and all look down their noses at locals. Of course, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and some members of our community & gov do not give a dam about Gsy or the indigenous population. I for one would like to see a freeze on the importation of Latvians and other none locals and once our economies recovered then and only then open the borders backup. I am not a racist but I am sure there are those who will jump on the xenophobic bandwagon and call me xenophobic but go ahead, this is the way you justify your racism towards locals.
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Geoff,
Do you suggest we go back 50 years to an island reliant on an industry picking tomatoes and selling flowers – and how would we raise the taxes to pay for the fantastic public services that we currently enjoy? I’m sure all the ‘true guerns’ will be happy to give up their hot tubs, 4x4s and Disney Land holidays when the finance sector disappears.
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Perhaps we should extend the principle to one of ‘ Guernsey people for Guernsey deputies’?
Perhaps we wouldn’t need to be considering borrowing money for future projects if we had an Assembly of true Guern big nosed tight wads.
I had a go at the latest Press competition of guessing the amount one hour’s States debate costs the taxpayer by searching ‘States of Guernsey’ – States Members payment rules
(last updated 27/10/06)
With a miriad of extra allowances for sitting on Committees or being a Departmental Deputy Minister etc it is virtually impossible to come up with a figure.
Mind you ,with a prize of a day in the States with a Press reporter I doubt that there will be many takers.
What’s the second prize .. TWO days in the States ?
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Dave, local are we?? Here you go with the normal drivel when one suggests the locals come first and please please expalin how we would go back 50 years by have a sensible immigration policy. Equally, where have I said get rid of the finance industry? We need the finance sector and if it ever left we would be in severe crises, get a grip….local people deserve to work also and if it means cutting back on Eastern European, English and other nationals working in the island then that is what should happen. Look around you mate and see the poverty, drug culture, homelessness, sewage being pumped out to sea, high utility charges,65% empty buses which we the tax payer are funding to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds, lousy roads, high medical costs, vice rings and the island is going into a possible massive recession….. The list is endless…and where are the good public services you mention…… Dave, you are so so easily pleased…….
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Darren
Most of the legal system managed by non-locals? I’m sure Messrs Rowland, Collas, Van Leuven, Tough, De La Mare and virtually all of the Jurats would have something to say about that. As would leading advocates such as Perrot, Ferbrache etc. Of course there are non-locals in senior positions in numerous industries, but primarily foreign labour has been brought to the island because of cost and availability, to work in areas such as growing and catering where we simply haven’t had enough local labour to fill the demand.
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“KEEP IT LOCAL SHOULD” BE OUR RALLYING CRY.
Has anyone ever been prosecuted for not having a right to work document ?
There are dozens if not hundreds of UK builders working over here at the moment.
Many at Royal Gardens & some at Friquet.
Have they got the correct documents and are they paying local taxes ?
I think we shouls all post details of outsiders taking locals jobs.
many at Specsavers also are not locals
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Local jobs for local people as a return to work mother last year when i asked about a job in a local supermarket i was told there were no vacancies most annoying when practically the whole of the workforce were foreign.im a true guern and a hard worker.THE EXCUSE you employers are coming out with foreign workers work hard and locals are lazy is utter rubbish. YOU PREFER TO EMPLOY FOREIGN FOR YOUR OWN GAINS TO SAVE MONEY BY PAYING A RUBBISH WAGE.
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BJP – What a load of Rubbish. Our Island has not been destroy by Lativans and Portugese as you claim.
They have come into our island and filled the rolls that we have been unable to. As many people have stated the are very hard working and in most cases to a very good Job. It’s people like you who give those of us who support local jobs for local people a bad name. I would be tempted to agree with anyone who implied you were a racist.
Kevin – We’re not saying that these jobs should be kept open in case a Local person at sometime in the future wants the Job. I’m happy with foreign labour filling a gap in the market on a temporary basis. But if there is a local person who is willing and able to fill a role, why should a license be handed out to bring someone into the island?
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How does the Housing department check on a company’s need to obtain a licence, in regards to the efforts they have employed to find a local person to fill a position?
For example, if there was an MD who had the ideal person in mind from a previous UK company they had worked for. Surely they could just advertise the job, discover no-one with the experience applied and hence forth obtain a licence for the person of choice. However, what if someone suitable did apply, I guess they could still say no-one suitable was found, but who checks?
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It’s very sad. Happy days are over for all of us…foreign workers are included
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i have been reading the comments put forward regarding local jobs for local people and i must admit i am astonished with some of them, it would seem the majority of the comments are of the opinion that locals are lazy and work shy when this is definitely not the case, sure! some of them are, but this is only a minority.even if all the unemployed at the moment are lazy which is definitely not the case that still only accounts for about 1.5% of the working population. my wife lost her job about a year ago through no fault of her own and she was out of work for approx 2 months , the first time she had been unemployed in 50 years, she applied for numerous jobs in numerous occupations, one of them in particular in a states dept and a non local was given the job instead of her even though she had better qualifications. i believe employers prefer non locals because there is no long term commitment and when they need to get rid of them it is easier to do so far easier than putting down a local
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Devils Advocate..
House don’t ever check up as far as I’m aware..
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Reason why we import so much labour.. It’s called being competitive and maintaining profit margins. Most local have trouble doing a 40hrs week. let along 60hrs a week. Most foreign come here for one reason and one reason only… to work… and don’t want pensions, health plans, health & safety stuff.. they just want work and as much as they can get..
Labour is always a salable commodity most of us have Just bake beans and bread… Everybody is looking for the best deal they can get.. So it’s natural to buy from the best or cheapest sauce.
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If I remember correctly in the Isle of Man. Employers are legally bound to give employment preference to Islanders over foreign labour if the applicants are equally qualified. So the locals always kept in work job or encouraged to improve them selves…
Maybe it’s time Guernsey followed this route ?..
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Its NOT that the locals are lazy its the terms and conditions you want them to work under.locals have families and do not want to do the unreasonable hours not to state the fact that a fair hourly rate is not paid for the inconvenience of unsociable hours.Guest workers choose to come here and have not got families.bosses can chose their hours they are all right.the staff cant.
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Erm, if these foreign chaps are so diligent, hard working and cheap, why don’t we hand out some fire extinguishers and send them up the airport?
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we dont live in a perfect island, so why bother trying to make out we do. you cant run a company with no staff and you cant expand..we need guest workers as much as they need us. market forces dictate how many come into the island , and also leave the island. if you try to upset the fine balance then you will see in a few months just how bad things can get. the main problem, once again, is the media….we have one of the lowest levels of unemployment in the world…get over it. while i am at it, could we please stop giving scroungers an easy ride. some of the cliff paths could do with a clean up…….
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Devils Advocate makes a good point. How do housing know, before they issue a licence that there is not a suitable local applicant? My definition of local would be someone who does not require a licence to be issued – they could be married to a local but be from anywhere in the world.
I do accept that our guest workers do a fantastic job – they work hard and they save hard – but most of them do not expect to be given a licence to stay her forever, unlike some of the senior finance workers or civil servants. We should be looking to encourage those with the relevant experience and skills and who do not require a licence to apply for these jobs, particularly in the public sector. It is becoming a bureaucratic nightmare working in the public sector, with staff tying themselves up in knots due to unnecessary rules and regulations which have been brought in from the UK in the most part. Often meaning these high paid licence holders then have to have ‘assistants’ and still decision making is a long and slow process.
Who is being trained to take over when these licences are up? There must be plenty of graduates and/or well experienced ‘local’ staff out there who could be enticed to apply and take over, but there is no evidence that this is being actively encouraged at all.
Let’s hope that our States members and particularly Housing members do start to question all these longer licence requests. I am not saying we can do 100% without any 15 year licences, of course we cannot for skills in short supply, but they should be reduced if we are to ensure the population of Guernsey does not explode. We need to keep positions free for the young entrepreneurs of which this island has many i.e accountants, Administrators, IT experts etc who are coming through if we are to encourage local residents to stay and work for their island. The credit crunch could be good news for the island when it comes to encouraging local residents back.
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geoff – I assume that when you use the term non-local, you are referring to those who have a licence to live in Guernsey, but may have changed jobs from one that was unable to be fulfilled locally to one that can be now! If in your wife’s case that was so, maybe could could sue along the lines of discrimination.
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Who wants to work unsociable hours for A rubbish
rate.bosses get real would you.PAY US LOCALS DECENT MONEy and stop using excuses that the foreign workers are so wonderful .LOOK AFTER THE LOCALS.
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Geoff
“opinion that locals are lazy and work shy when this is definitely not the case”
Although I am critical of some elements of our work force; that is not my general opinion; equally there are a fair amount of envious incomers that begrudge our life style – something that always amuses me.
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Devils Advocate: It is very difficult to sue an employer for not employing you; how do you prove anything. The bill for the lawyer would be astronomical and the applicant would end up with nothing at the end of the day.
‘L’ : You do sound a bit xenophobic but i think i know where you are coming from. A lot of the guest workers at the cheaper end of the market i.e. horticultural workers are sometimes exploited and expected to live in substandard accommodation – but not all. A lot of the retail workers earn the same as their local colleagues.
I do think that the amount paid out by the public sector for licence holders does make a difference though. If they tried to entice senior experienced people from the private sector by offering them the same package as say someone from the UK would get i am sure they would fill a lot of the posts which are currently advertised off island.
Housing: please do your homework. There are certainly some trades that could not survive without licence holders but there are a lot of jobs that could be filled by local people if the package was the same.
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J,
So I am a racist because I dare give my opinion…Interesting accusation that one…Typical, its people like you who discourage freedom of speech for the locals. Get out there, talk to local people, and see how they feel about none locals and the ever decreasing jobs market. At every turn, we see guest workers being employed in jobs that locals can and want to do. Does this comment make me a racist……..I have enormous respect for our none local population and the massive contribution they bring. However, it is a misconception that all guest workers work hard and the same could be said about local workers. However, in my experiences local workers get a raw deal and the none locals are of course cheap labour for greedy employees. Is this not exploitation and racist towards those guest workers…….I would say yes it is.
If SSD & Enviroment get their way we will be seeing thousands of “none local youth” arriving in our island because of the alleged aging population. Would you be happy with this? Yes, I am sure you would be………….”anyone but a local being employed”…….oooopppps, yet another racist comment made……….tut, tut, tut…….
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Merlin – I agree, but the fundamental issue could be one to be challenged.
Your comments on pay packages, highlights an area that should surely be investigated by C&E and Housing.
I am intrigued by a story I have heard, if true there could be something wrong about the actions of the employer (I’m not sure), it’s about some people who live in the UK but fly to Guernsey and stay in a hotel/guest for four nights before returning back to the UK, in jobs that may never have been advertised. Not sure whether this means they need a housing licence (I doubt it) and do not know whether they would need to have a ‘right to work’ document.
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411 is hardly a number to worry about. Guernsey is the one place in the world where if you’re not fussy (and even if you are) you can get a job. Instead of handing out licenses willy nilly why not try to keep the great teachers and nurses who do have licenses in jobs. Better still further encourage youngsters back to the island instead of scaring them away with the ridiculous notion of footing their own uni fees.
To be honest, with the cost of living in Guernsey the way it is I’m happy to stay upt north and let a non-local do my job.
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Unemployment is a difficult issue as there are those on the island that have used it to aviod States Insurance contribution, those are the Non employed who have enough money to live on but are so tight they feel they have to “work the system”. So to read these stories of unemployment figures have to be looked at more closely to realy see “who is doing what”
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I find the comments about Latvians etc destroying our island quite incredible. Correct me if I am wrong but hasn’t the total unemployed number been hovering around the 200 mark for many years now (will of course grow with the recession). I don’t know what percentage this is of the total population of working age but it is going to be very very low. There are also bound to be some in that number who are near on unemployable so the percentage decreases further. How many foreigners in the island? Thousands. Throw them all out, place the 200 people into some of jobs they are probably not willing or able to do and see what happens.
Certain industries and services would grind to a halt. That is definitely not going to be good for the island !
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My daughter has just been offered three jobs on the Island, having been away for three years. The reason? The wage offered are far more than she is getting on the “income support” system in the UK and far more than the minimum wage. It makes sense for her to return to the island of her birth. Crazy however, that her parents (also islanders) cannot afford to come back because of the prohibitive cost of housing.
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People who have had the oppurtunity to experience Guernsey pre 1980 would appreciate how much it has changed and this is certainly not for the better. Finance is not the be all and end all and whilst this has expanded out of all control putting all of our eggs into one basket and destroying every local way in the process it does not mean we all want to be involved in it! For starters because of all the lavish life styles people come to expect, it now pushes up the cost of living and unless you are in finance its impossible to budget for this. If you are doing a valued manual workers job for the community (roadsweepers/binmen/policemen) you are very fortunate to get rewarded anywhere near the cost of living! Now average house prices are around the high 300′s and the average wages do not allow the average people who have no interest in sitting on their backsides all day to live an average life in their Island. It is not all about greed and envy its about wanting to have a quality of life and to enjoy the simple pleasures without having to keep up with the Jones’s (without the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer). Why have we got nopn-locals sitting as deputies etc? these people are not interested in the local way of life. They all just want to interfere just as the Barclays want to interfere with Sark. Now if you don’t like it here then don’t come here and certainly don’t force your opinions on us locals. Like I said earlier the sooner finance collapses the better. People might then start to realise what Guernsey was all about and the fact that families could provide for themselves and afford to live off the land and the like!!! Were now down to 1 farm in torteval and he has had to fight tooth and nail to keep afloat. I do not want a situation where i will be forced to drink english milk or is it water. These industries provide and rather than go and buy the fesh veg and salads from marks (which have been frozen for goodness knows how long and travelled from afar) i want to be able to enjoy the goodness of what has been on offer to us for generations. Like I said this is not a playground for the rich its our home, if you want your built up concrete jungles then go else where!!! By the way a true guern is someone with local rights and status and with the best interests of this Island at heart!
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Geoff
I note your views and agree with quite a few of them. I doubt if there is a single person working in the finance sector who would disagree with the view that a more diversified economy would be better for Guernsey as a whole.
However the crux of the problem is that what other industries can we develop ? A community of 60,000-plus people needs to be exporting something of value to the outside world in order to sustain a viable economy. What would that be ?
The cost of importing raw materials, making things here and exporting the finished goods is massively enhanced by shipping/freight costs, making the price uncompetitive with the same goods manaufactured elsewhere without those shipping/freight costs to be factored in.
We used to very successful at growing tomatoes, of course, but that industry died a death when the Dutch subsidised their growers’ fuel bills so much that the Dutch could sell their tomatoes on the retail market for cheaper than we could sell them wholesale. End of market.
Tourism is gone, lost to cheap flights from the UK to the Med and guaranteed weather, as well as the high cost of getting to/from Guernsey (which would be even higher if the airlines servicing Guernsey didn’t have a high volume of business travellers).
The internet age is upon us, enabling buyers to buy their desired goods from anywhere in the world, wherever is the cheapest. We will never achieve the economies of scale available from manufacturing goods in Eastern Europe or the Far East.
Labour is also too expensive here (dictated by high demand and low supply), although admittedly labour rates are very heavily inflated by the finance industry. People simply don’t need to do back-breaking farming or growing these days. Hourly rates available in just about any other job pay far better.
Until somebody comes up with a viable alternative industry which produces high volumes of exports for Guernsey, whether we like it or not we are now wed to finance. The diversification should have taken place 10-15 years ago before finance took over, but it didn’t and we cannot readily turn back the clock.
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If anyone thinks the UK or US is a role model then I feel sorry for them.
Guernsey should concentrate on educating its own people (those with a CI passport regardless of creed or colour) to work in Finance/Law or whatever.
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I believe David and Geoff both have very valid points, which in itself is a dilemma for us and a crossroads for this island as a community. What we must ensure is that Finance is kept within the means of this island, to allow natural diversification to other industries to occur over a long period. We cannot jump ship now but we can stop the ship from steaming ahead in order to allow this diversification to occur, which will ultimately be to everyone, who calls this island home, benefit.
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BJP
What vice rings? There aren’t any as far as I am aware!
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Geoff
I see the point that you are making. However you do use a fair amount of artistic licence.
The milk in the UK is not quite as good as ours. However it is still very good and very few people would be able to tell the difference.
Guernsey has changed drastically over the last 30 years I will accept this. I will confirm that this has been for the worse of the Island.
I grew up in St Martins and the amount of development in this parish is unbelievable. It was once a well sought parish to live in. Now I would not wish to.
Where do you get 1 farm from? I suggest you do some homework cos there are a lot more than this.
With regard to not wanting to eating frozen salads and veggies. Go to the farmers markets. Here you will get an idea of how many farms are left and whilst you are at it you will be able to spend your hard earn’t whilst at the same time supporting your community.
For the record. Frozen veggies are very good. Only a someone with a very sharp palate would be able able to tell the difference.
Th Island has been massively over developed and this is a big shame for all of us.
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Guernsey will have a massive unemployment problem WHEN Mr Obamha start weilding his stick and crushing the tax havens.Restart growing or some other industry because the days of Finance will very quickly come to an end, so will jobs, grockles, and maybe it will return to a tranquil island with no greed.
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I have to say, with the standard of customer service in Guernsey (and Woolworths was a prime example), I can understand why employers are looking further afield. Many Guernsey people (note I said many, not all!) are just plain rude when it comes to dealing with customers, and get away with it. In the UK they would have been sacked long ago and replaced. I moved to Guernsey because I love the island and believe me, I treat Guernsey and its inhabitants with much more respect than a lot of native Guernseypeople do.
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BJP TO J I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU BJP
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Alternatives to finance? Casinos & brothels. If you’re concerned about effects on local society then ban ‘locals’ from using them, like they do at the Monte Carlo casino.
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BJP and L
I think if you read my earlier comments you will see that i am completely for local jobs for local people. I have been standing up for locals against the tidelwave of people who want to bring in cheap foreign labour whilst the number of unemployed Guerns rises rapidly.
Luckily we are not at that stage yet and for the mean time beinging in temporary foreign labour is the only way to progress.
My problem with BJP is his comment that “Our islands been destroyed by the influx of english/Latvian & Portuguese…”.
Firstly, i don’t believe that the island has been ruined. It is a wonderful place to live and to visit. Having been visited by a large group of American family and friends last year i was proud to show them where i came from and they thought it was a fantastic place which they all would like to visit again.
Secondly, very few of the problems that this isalnd has are caused by foreign workers and i think that to imply they are the reason for the Islands woe’s is very short sighted and verging on xenophobic.
I have been accused of being xenophobic myself during this conversation by someone trying to as you say “discourage freedom of speech for the locals”. I do however feel that your comments do more harm than good for this cause in the way that the BNP has tainted many English peoples veiws of less radical eurosceptics on the main land.
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I went into a local jewellers today and enquired
about an item in the window and was served by this very miserable assistant who treated me like i was being a nuisance.GUESS WHAT SHE WASNT LOCAL SHE WAS FOREIGN.and no im not racist
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“she wasn’t local she was foreign”
That is a racist comment, L.
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Oh dear.
‘Foreign ‘looks like yet another English word that I’ll have to cross out of my dictionary.
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Belinda
Using Google the word foreigner (or foreign) isn’t seen as racist.
Seems that L is just describing what he or she perceived – that the shop person clearly from somewhere, other than Guernsey.
Perhaps you will explain why the comment is racist? Is it the context of the statement?
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If you refer to the UN Convention on Human Rights, you will see racial discrimination defined as making any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
L’s comments have been clearly racially discriminatory in this topic. Trying to exclude people from particular jobs etc on the basis of their national origin has been unequivocably established as racist. The fact is that Guernsey has a deep-seated problem with racism as this article and the responses to it prove.
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Ray
Didn’t Pol Pot base his domestic policy on ‘local jobs for local people’? The killing fields are testament to the extremes of protectionism. This is why the UN and other bodies have embraced the views highlighted by Belinda.
Surely it’s a given that when a license expires the employer should advertise locally before spending resources on shipping someone over? The fact is we don’t have the depth of expertise needed locally to maintain full employment. Only until massive investment is made in training and education, provision for childcare and flexible working arrangements (including working from home) will this trend be partly reversed. But we know that the States have their hands tied because of appeasement to non local corporations and non local high net worths so this will probably never happen.
Things can only get worse for those locals who are feeling left out and let down already.
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I thought L was making the point that a non local was not giving an appropriate level of service.
Belinda. Are you making a riaky assumption that L wanted to exclude the person of whom he complains?
Thank you for your explanation. It helps the understanding when you explain why you have a particular view.
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Stephen
L shouted ‘local jobs for local people’ which implies that locals should have more employment rights than non locals….do you see where that leads us?
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Belinda, I was not making a racist comment of any form, I stated a fact. This is political correctness gone wrong if you regard the comment “she was foreign” as being a racially motivated one. How dare you call me a racist, that is some insult to level at anyone from such a simple comment.
If one looks at all of the employment sector, there is no problem with racism in Guernsey.
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Fast Robert
The housing licence syatem is based on if locals are available then they will be appointed in preference to someone (non local?) who needs a licence.
Seems that locals, by law, have more employnment rights than non locals.
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L
Belinda hasn’t called you a racist. She has said you used a racist comment. At a very literal angle, and in the eyes of the law if ever someone took offence then that would be upheld.
I think you were just trying to defend the fact that some people call locals surly and rude to customers in shops whereas all non locals are wonderful. That is plainly not the case.
But I can’t agree with your last sentence. You only have to read some of these posts to see that some folk would have ‘foreigners go home’, and something you hit upon – why should non local workers get paid less, isn’t that discriminatory? So there is an inherant racism in Guernsey, as there is probably anywhere where employment laws are lacking.
Employers have a right to source the cheapest labour to increase their margins, but they should be forced to treat all employees with the same dignity. This would then serve to get the best people in, regardless of status, because they would need value for money.
The introduction of the minimum wage has been long overdue and perhaps a symptom of the reluctance that the employers have for paying decent rates for decent workers. Not that it’s anywhere near enough, mind.
So instead of saying ‘look after the locals’, we should be saying ‘look after all employees and ensure that everyone has the same rights, the same access to decent accommodation and working environment, and a watchdog to ensure they are not being exploited’.
Seek level playing fields and not reactionary scapegoating.
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L, are you saying that you have never encountered a ‘local’ shop assistant with a similar attitude ????
The trouble with “local people for local jobs” is that it cuts both ways. Imagine if every country on the planet took the same attitude? What would the island do if everybody born and educated here who has ever moved away were forced back ? And if everybody not born here were forced to leave ?
I am not local ( I wasn’t born here, I was moved here by my parents at a young age ) If Guernsey doesn’t want ‘foreigners’ working here then I will gladly leave – just so long as you give me back the 20 years of taxes, charges and contributions which I have paid to the island …….
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Toby, it is not a case of, “get all the foreigners out of Guernsey because they are stealing all of our jobs.” It is the fact that locals should be offered jobs first, which surely seems like a perfectly sensible and reasonable OPINION to have. To Fast Robert, while arguably it is discriminatory to pay foreigners less money, if they were paid more (which I believe they should be) then locals would be more willing to do the job, which I feel they should be offered first.
I feel jobs should be offered to loal people first not because of the fact that I have a general dislike of them (this is simply not true) but because a sense of pride in my island and the people who live here makes me think that those who were born and bred here should have priority over the benefits on the island (having a job).
Yes this may not seem fair when you seem to feel treating someone as equal is the best method, but if you did treat everyone as equal, everyone on earth would be paid a set wage, and would have to have the exact same job under the exact same conditions. The fact is, Fast Robert, this is simply not possible. Life is not fair, and some people were brought up in better conditions, some people are naturally more intelligent, and some people are lucky enough, such as myself, to be born on such a brilliant island.
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Paul, thanks for that. The one farm i think you will find is the one and only farm in torteval that has met huge opposition as to its development. I think you will find that there is actually 11 or 12 dairy farms on the island and its a far cry from 20 years ago when there was more like 200+. I do go to the markets which are excellent however i do tend to supply myself with my own produce normally.
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Geoff… There were 364 register farmers when I left school.. that was 30 years ago now
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