Steere sees better uses for the colleges’ £4.5m.
Monday 23rd February 2009, 2:30PM GMT.
THE £4.5m. a year funding of the independent colleges is under threat as budget pressures mount at Education.
Minister Carol Steere believes the money allocated to Elizabeth College, Ladies’ College and Blanchelande is unsustainable.
The department has a deficit of around £1.5m. on its £72m. budget and Deputy Steere (pictured) is warning there could be some unpopular decisions ahead.
College funding is secure until 2012 under an earlier deal.
The music and youth services will also be under investigation.
‘I support any parent’s right to choose where they want to have their children educated, but if you choose the independent route you should pay the going rate,’ said Deputy Steere.
‘I don’t believe it should be subsidised by the state – the money could be better spent elsewhere.
‘I know in some parts that will be unpopular – and with the parents who pay for their children at those schools.
‘But the States needs to think long and hard – is it an appropriate amount?’
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I think it is completely appropriate for most if not all funding to be withdrawn.
Having recently (this morning) come out of a talk with Matt Fallaize (Education) I can tell you that closing down St. Sampsons and St. Andrews primary schools could have saved half of the £1.5m deficit that the Education Department finds in its annual budget. That decision was foolishly not taken by the states for reasons which, as an Economics Student, I can not comprehend.
Passing by on that decision means that it can’t realistically be reconsidered, therefore other measures need to be taken, and it seems that withdrawing funding to private schools (a contradiction in itself) is a viable and quite sensible option.
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I can understand a certain amount of States funding for Elizabeth College & Ladies college as scholarships are given free through the current system purely on academic grounds.
What I do not understand is States funding for Blanchelande, as according to their website you have to come from a Catholic family to be eligible for one of the 6 scholarships given. Taxpayers are therefore effectively paying a subsidy for a school that, unless your are a Roman Catholic, you have no chance of getting your child accepted on a scholarship.
Although as a Christian I am totally in favour of faith schools, I do question whether taxpayers should be required to subsidide a school that will only allow a scholarship to a certain faith group?
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Hello Chris Newby,
you seem puzzled by the decision on the two primary schools.
I note that you are an Economics student and would therefore recommend you to consider Oscar Wilde’s saying:
“Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
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Doesn’t the subsidy cover :
a) those non-fee paying students
b) the fact the the fee paying students could get a ‘free’ education that would ultimately costs the public anyway ?
So if the subsidy is cut and assuming worst case scenario (these schools have to close)..
How are the states going to afford to educate all these new pupils that will be entitled to a ‘states funded’ education. Would a new school need to be built? how much are those additional teachers going to cost ?
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I completely agree. Funding should be withdrawn from these schools. They do provide an excellent level of education and there is no gripes here whatsoever. However, they are at luxury end of the educational scale.
This Island has enough wealthy individuals to make these establishments wash their own faces. It would only be right for the education department to stump up the annual fees for scholarship students at the the going rate, means tested, to balance the scales.
All of the above establishments tend to be parental lifestyle choices. If they want the best for their children then it is now time they are expected to pay for these services.
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Mr Newby
You don’t have to be a university student, nor an economics student, to realise that the case put buy Education for the closure of St Sampson’s School, was something that would have got you a referral, if you had put the document forward as part of your course.
However, you mightstate what evidence, in the Billet, was put to the States that would have justified them deciding to close both schools.
Rememeber, Mr Newby, the Billet didn’t even attempt to put a case for the closure of St Andrew’s. This suggests that Education, as a Department didn’t have the confidence, even to invite the States to decide that closing St Andrew’s was an option.
Perhaps the States were not as foolish as you would suggest – going on the evidence put to them!!!
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As Jamie pointed out, if you pull the subsidy then a percentage of those families currently sending their kids to EC/LC will no longer be able to afford it. They will therefore send them to a states school and a cost will be incurred to the taxpayer.
I’m not saying independents should be subsidised above that cost, but total removal of the subsidy will do nothing but shift the cost back to the states schools.
Left hand, meet right hand….
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Well if well off boaties can pull a blinder on the moorings you don’t seriously think the aspiring are going to let her get away with this one do you?
Be interesting how many politicians children are fee payers.
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Ed Smith
Your post remids me of the company chairman who wanted to appoint a one handed economist.
When asked why the Chairman replied that the problem with economists is that they always qualify their advice with “On one hand this, and on the other hand that”
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I think the school system should be changed – have 2 or 3 large excellent quality comps (like the Grammer) which go up to A level – yes you will have people of all levels at the schools, but they would need to be graded appropriately.
My sister went to Ladies & I went to St Sampsons years ago and although we get on really well, at the time it caused friction between us as she looked down on the state schools slightly – as i imagine do all the ‘elite schools kids’ and I felt angry about this, although I was proud at the same time, of my school.
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‘PAUL’ just to comment on your email. Where do you think my daughter will go to school when the subsidy ends and I cannot afford the fees anymore? Yes a states school… and who will be paying for her then? yes you the tax payer!! Oh and by the way, I dont have loads of money, I am a single parent and work hard to cover school costs. What is wrong with wanting the best for my daughter? its nothing to do with luxury I can assure you, I just have different priorities when it comes to spending my well earned money!!
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Serena
Was your sister a scholarship placement?
If not I would question your folks on the favouritism issue!
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Jamie and Ed Smith have got it spot on. The three colleges are an integral and valuable part of education as a whole in Guernsey, and the funding should remain
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go girl…Did you get an education or can you blame the war years?
These schools are keeping a 1000 children out of places such as Beaucamp – What does a child cost pa for education?
How many scholarships are given?
Some parents probably pay lots of local tax – lets encourage them to educate their children elsewhere or move off the island given you can not afford to provide the quality education across all schools and these schools have to charge Eton prices
4.5 m not enough – they deserve more
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Carol Steere has got absolutely no chance of cutting the millions of pounds given each year to the indipendent schools. The Guernsey Conservative Party also known as the high parish deputies and old school tie brigade will see to that. Deputy Sam Maindonald has two children at Ladies College so her comments are definately not biased are they.Fees for Elizabeth College are more than two thousand pounds a year lower than an average public school in the U.K. and Ladies College and Blanchande are so cheap I couln’t find any public schools on the internet in their catagory that were less expensive. whilst Les Beaucamp crumbles Elizabeth College has plans in to rebuild one of it’s pavilions on one of its two playing fields. You know, the one by their own floodlit all weather playing pitch. I could go on but what’s the point Guernsey is run by rich people for rich people and always will be
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Please read the paper to see my right to reply on this matter.
This is not about saving money as Jamie et al have identified.
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Jamie behave yourself. Everyone knows that we could accomodate all of the island’s students in our state schools and at a lower cost.You have to ask yourself if it is right for low paid workers to be subsidising (through taxes) better off people who choose, for whatever reason , to educate their children privately. After all no one subsidises people who pay for private health insurance and quite right too.
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and i was going to ask for a tax rebate given i pay twice for my childrens education!!
if the colleges have to increase fees then this will increase significantly the burden on states schools as parents struggling to pay the 7.5k may not be able to afford the increase or will spend less elsewhere…Can the island cope with this.
Has this really been thought through? Given past/recent embarrassments i suspect not
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4.5m – they should be asking for more?
How much would it cost to accomodate 1500?? additional students in States schools?
How would Education suffer if class sizes increased?
How many of the Grammer school students would have got in if they then were up against children of parents paying additional 11+ tuition on top of what they paid? (uk this is a norm and tutor costs increase due to supply/demand)
4.5m – have you done a SWOT analysis on this? I think not.
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If the subsidy is withdrawn the colleges will become bastions for the rich. At the moment many ordinary families choose to send their children by sacrificing other things. They are the only single sex schools which is what some parents think is important for secondary education.
I think there is a good point made about whether the current high schools will have enough room to house all the college students should they close or should parents be unable to keep their children there. How much are the fees? I thought the subsidy had been reduced.
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I rarely agree with carol steer but on this occasion i do, funding should be for the young and the public schools where children can progress through primary /junior /secondary and a very good grammar sixth form and unto university where two of my children went and achieved degree’s.
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Should the States be daft enough to withdraw funding from the three colleges, then they would certainly have to close.
That would put over 1500 students back on the States schools roles at a cost of £7,000 each per annum, a total of £10.5 million, of course there would be a saving of the £4.5m grant!
In the meanwhile two (possibly three) top schools would have been closed so that mediocrity could prevail – how wise.
Obviously the education of those suggesting such a move is deficient in mathematics, economics and social sciences.
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Jamie is spot on. If the parents of the 1300 or so children being educated at Elizabeth College, Ladies College and Blanchelande decided to withdraw their fee-paying children from those schools, then Deputy Steere needs to find an extra £100m to build two new schools to accommodate them. Good luck Deputy Steere.
I put my daughter through private school at my expense for 13 years. I paid my taxes in the meantime but my tax contributions were used instead to fund the education of other taxpayers’ children, rather than mine. Hundreds of other taxpayers are similarly subsidising the children in the state schools !
The principle of subsidising the colleges is correct. Whether the amount is correct is another debate
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The academic records of the three colleges is exceptionally high. Could Deputy Steere replicate those standards within the States school system ? I hardly think so. If it aint broke, don’t fix it.
To Paul Le P, Elizabeth College is somewhat bigger than Ladies College in terms of available places for boys. Blanchelande equalises that situation and addresses a blatant case of sex discrimination whereby the states were subsidising far more boys’ education than girls’ education. Blanchelande only finally started receiving a states subsidy about 6 or 7 years ago but there were parents prepared to take the sex discrimination point and there is every likelihood that they would have won.
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So we now have two months of every government department shouting loudly through the media about what they can and cannot afford. Shame we wasted our money on vanity projects like the court and airport and created zero 10 to subsidise banks (!)
If the black hole in education is 1.5 million why are they looking to cut 4.5 million? How can the private schools offer cheaper education currently than the education department – maybe less civil servants to carry? how come they get better results than Grammar despite taking kids who fail their 11+? The parents already pay tax which helps fund ALL schools, the parents who are only just affording fees will not be able to continue thus putting the whole burden for the education on their children onto the States… doesn’t add up – go back to school Carol…
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Right lets get something clear – EC and LC are not “independent” per se – they form part of the educational system in Guernsey. For good or ill.
A few years ago there was a major debate in the States which hinged on the main point which was to abolish the 11+ and effectively create comprehensives (St Sampsons & Beaucamp) and turn the Grammer school into a 6th form college. Or something similar.
That was thrown out in favour of the status quo – a big mistake IMO.
So as ever Ms Steere is talking out of the back of her hat. You cannot have your cake and eat it.
Many, many parents who fee pay their kids to EC or LC are not rich – they simply (like me) wish their kids to have the best education possible in a system that is sub standard. To afford it many simply go without perceived luxuries. Fact.
There are plenty of wealthy parents who send their kids to state schools too!
Funding of the colleges should continue – unless the whole ridiculous education system is changed.
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Do these schools pay tax on their income?
If people are willing to pay through the nose for education, why aren’t they willing to pay more in tax? If the tax take was raised then all schools would benefit, raising the level of education and ironing out the disparities in facilities and abilities and attraction of the best teachers. After all, it is this argument that fee payers use to justify their detachedness.
By all means, keep an independent sector, but let it be truly independent. No subsidies, no tax breaks, no special affections. It’s merely a throwback to the elitist past. Time to move on.
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Concentrate on bringing up the State system make the rich pay their way.
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Carol, stay back after work and write ” I do not know what I am doing” 1.5million times
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Oh, and scrap the 11+ while we’re at it and coordinate streaming across a well funded state education system. All children have potential, we must not stigmatise them for having a bad day. Oh, we’ve done this one to death, haven’t we. Shame the establishment continues to spout out the same desire for undeserved preferential treatment.
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Taxpayers subsidising private education. Hideous.
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‘If you choose the independent route you should pay the going rate,’ said Deputy Steere’. In my opinion, the going rate is being paid. The facilities available at the colleges need investment from the States as they are currently not comparable with independent schools in the UK. Ladies College students are taught in pre-fab huts and there are very few sports facilities at either school. The Colleges in Guernsey provide an excellent academic education and pastoral care, but cannot be compared with independent schools in the UK, due to their lack of facilities. If States funding is withdrawn, some of those who can afford the ‘going rate’ will send their children to the UK. Finally let’s not forget that those paying for education at the colleges are effectively paying twice for their childrens’education.
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Yes Bryn. These schools have only become so big and powerful because of an attachment to the ideology that the rich have first dibs at the best resources ‘because that’s how Guernsey does things’.
In a real world, these would be small schools offering bespoke private education for those willing to pay through the nose for it. The resources that have been attracted, as money attracts all the privileges, could have been used for a greater good to educate MORE children from across the board, historically.
As the business world says, we are where we are, and any upheaval of this engrained philosophy will harm someone’s child. What the state should be offering is an education that is equivalent to these colleges. The stats held out by supporters of this privilege would imply that they feel their child would be hindered in a state school. How has this come to pass except by deliberate design? Why would that be inbuilt?
It really is quite simple. The ‘them and us’ ideology is still rife. It’s just far more subtle than it used to be. There is absolutely no reason why all children should not have the same levels of education, resources and support.
If you want to pay to be different, feel free, but I would rather my tax go to those that believe in the empowerment of society as a whole rather than for a lucky few.
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Kevin “whilst Les Beaucamp crumbles Elizabeth College has plans in to rebuild one of it’s pavilions on one of its two playing fields”.
I think that you will find that the parents of all boys at College have been asked to provide funds to pay for this development so don’t panic!
Your income tax will be wasted on some other “worthwhile” overspend project.
I don’t think that Mrs Steere has ever got over the fact that the last time she was in the States her “lets abolish the 11+” vendetta got thrown out by her colleagues.
I wonder which school the former Carol Twist attended?
The colleges are an easy target. As you might gather she didn’t get my vote…
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Fast Robert (and others) – you should pour your vitriol not towards the colleges but the representatives that you voted into the States for allowing the education system to be as it is.
If Steere wants to change the whole system then fine – but do it properly, cost it, fund it and get on with it.
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Gilthead
I agree with that sentiment. A school is a school. What I disagree with are those that say it’s a ‘special’ system that needs preserving ‘just because it should’. The results are good because of the quality of pupil it attracts because of the subsidies. Those pupils would do well at any school.
Those that want to pay should have the choice, but why should they have help if they choose to opt out?
More money is needed across the board. It should not be the tax payer that subsidises a private institution, ‘part of the education system’ or not.
The people that pay for the kids to be privately educated would be the same people that would demand that businesses sink or swim according to performance and not ask for state handouts. A bit of a generalisation, I know, but an educated one.
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Pete Local
I believe that Mrs Steere attended Blanchlande.
Serena
Two or three good comprehensives that provide excellence of education to all students is the ideal.
Problem is that Guernsey schools fail those who struggle. This is why the CFE growth are in the past few years has been in remedial work.
Apply a proper economic costing to this and you will see that the failure to properly deal with remedial students, results in a double charge – one to those who have failed the students in the primary and secondary sector, and the hefty bill incurred to recify the porition at the CFE.
Mrs Steere would recover much of her deficit from this area alone.
Just look at the CFE staff list and you see the resources put into support and remedial work. It should be a concern for Mrs Steere. However, attacking the colleges is a lot easier.
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Stephen John
Could it not be argued that the failed children are a direct result from the decades of bias towards the colleges and to a general leaning towards a non inclusive social agenda? Presumably this is because Guernsey prides itself on being a ‘low tax and stable jurisdiction, the envy of the world’, when in fact it produces two tiers of adults based on ability to pay, and luck.
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Fast Robert
No
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2007 Education Budget = £67mil
2008(JAN) Persons in education (ALL schools) = 9,033
Price per pupil = £67mil / 9,033 = £7,417.25 (Average)
Subsidy from states to fee paying schools = £4.5mil
2008(Jan) persons at fee paying schools = 1,662
Cost to Public per child for a fee paid school = £2,707.58
Saving to the public of continuing to subsidise the fee paid schools £4,709 per pupil or £7.8mil total.
From the press article I presume this is only being looked at on economic grounds. Any other arguement for or against fee paid schools is pointless in the context of the press article.
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If the heart of the matter is budgetary as per the first line of this report, then the whole debate is pointless.
As many suggest, it is surely going to cost more than the current annual deficit of £1.5m to integrate the current quota of ‘College’ pupils into the States system.
Seems to me that this is a fast way to increase ‘budget pressures’ rather than ease them.
We’ve gone through the very recent carnage that was the St. Andrews and St Sampsons closure debate. Now we’re into secondary education. How long before the CFE gets lined up for a fall?
Just leave education alone.
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Fast Robert
Perhaps you could explain further your comment “it produces two tiers of adults based on ability to pay, and luck.”
My son is a scholarship boy at Elizabeth College, I think he earned his place on merit rather than “luck”.
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Well it’s one thing members of staff leaking the proposed closure of two promary schools. Now we have the Minister leaking her own thoughts.
Not entirely sure where to put the bandage anymore.
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Fast Robert
Students perform well at The Colleges due to many factors and being a comp lad myself was not 100% sure about paying for my children. Now, seeing the improvements and structure in place to develop all children at college, one child has progressed far beyond what he would have done at a States school ( his homework per day far outweighs his friends at a states school and results are promising given his 11+ result)
Whilst my children are at school – should we contribute to the cost of States Schools and pay for tax payer funded students from the 11+. Take this funding away the answer is NO.
How do I fund my childrens education? One current way is spending wise. Any item I can buy on the internet (tv’s, sofa, books, computer, cd’s) that is cheaper than local I do so no tax or sales is going locally but I have extra funds to spend on giving them the best education I can afford.
Carole Steere will not be getting any votes from my family so hopefully their will be an election prior to this being brought up for real debate – send in the clowns…oops it looks like we did
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Surely the first area for Deputy Steere to focus on is the massive number of “educational admininstrators” – one of Guernsey’s fastest-growing “industries”. The wastage in that department is criminal. A huge chunk of the £1.5m budget shortfall could be saved there in a flash.
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Whilst i agree with some of the postings about if the funding was withdrawn a small percentage of the student population of these schools would have to go to states schools. I can see the economics both ways.
However, as it stands, the main purpose for this funding -being to lower the fees of ALL college students – is unethical and needs to change.
Scrap the current funding system and replace it with funding based ONLY on an INDIVIDUAL merit system. Only selected children with strong academic as well as allround potential (including arts, language and sports etc) in both secondary and primary schools should be eligible for a full/half/partial scholarships. Funding would be issued to the schools PER SCHOLARSHIP CHILD and monitored per year based on the child maintaining their performance (within reason). Similar to what exists already but with increased flexibility (for economic management), increased places and embracing all ages across both secondary and primary schools (melrose/beechwood etc). This system is both equitable for ALL children and economical for the states & taxpayers -win win win. Its just an idea……..
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Fast Robert – perhaps I misunderstood you.
I too dislike the current system – with a passion, having been a victim of the 11+ lottery myself.
That is what is wrong.
The only fair way to resolve this is to abolish the 11+ (selective) system and build another St Sampsons High and use the current Grammer School as a 6th form college. Or such like.
Then there is a level playing field – and those that then choose to pay for an unsubsidised private education can do so – its a choice.
Until that time removing the subsidy to the colleges is not an option because they are part of the system – like it or not. As is the Grammer school.
Ms Steere needs to grab her metaphorical being by the horns and either modernise the system or think very carefully before she utters further stupid statements.
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>>Could it not be argued that the failed children are a direct result from the decades of bias towards the colleges and to a general leaning towards a non inclusive social agenda?<<
Can only be argued by those who are somewhat detatched from reality. If anything the Colleges are the last bastion of formal education, discipline and institution.
The concept of colleges should be maintained; whether they get it on the cheap is a different matter.
My boys want to go to Elizabeth College. But they will do it through hard work and merit; not through the family pocket. It’s now down to them and we are comfortable with that.
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Stephen John
I believe Mrs Steere nee Twist attended Les Beaucamps in the early to mid seventies
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At the end of the day, all the States schools should be of a higher standard and go up to A level – not going up to A Level puts people off if they have to transfer to the Grammar and start all over making friends etc. Equal rights for all!
PS Paul – i was thick my sister was bright she wasn’t paid for.
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This isn’t an especially relevent comment to the funding issue, but i disagree with some of the views being raised here that you are either lucky or financially able. I’m not convinced that its all that clear cut on the finances- my parents sent myself and two siblings to the colleges, i as the eldest attended La Mare for 4 years before transferring to Melrose when they could finally afford it. From 1985 to 1997 my family never went on holiday and only ever drove second/third hand cars… because my parents wanted us to have every opportunity available to us.
Meanwhile my parents were criticised as ‘elitist’, and my previous class mates shunned me as ‘posh’ whilst they galavanted off on Disneyland and Carribean holidays, had gameboys, and playstations, and the family got cars off the forecourt- its not always elitism- sometimes its a matter of priorities. I am forever grateful to my parents for those sacrafices.
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Serena – being thick (as you put it) makes not one jot.
There a limited number of places at the colleges and more specifically Grammer.
If you were in a large year group you have less chance of getting into Grammer or the colleges than a smaller year group – its simple maths!
Way back I was in a huge year group and got (numbers not real) 60%, in the previous and subsequent two years the “cut off” mark to Grammer was, say, 50%. Point being that your acedemic ability is almost an irrelavence but a mathematical lottery. I’ve simplified this but you get the drift.
So to Jackie (post above) check the number of kids in your year groups and work out the probability…
Paradoxically, as year numbers are falling, in about 15 years time (if nothing changes) all the Islands kids will be going to Grammer or the colleges!
That’ll put Ms Steere in a bit of a pickle.
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>>Paradoxically, as year numbers are falling, in about 15 years time (if nothing changes) all the Islands kids will be going to Grammer or the colleges!<<
Very funny Gilthead. That made me giggle :)
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Gilthead you said:
“A few years ago there was a major debate in the States which hinged on the main point which was to abolish the 11+ and effectively create comprehensives (St Sampsons & Beaucamp) and turn the Grammer school into a 6th form college. Or something similar. That was thrown out in favour of the status quo – a big mistake IMO.”
You then went on to say:
“Many, many parents who fee pay their kids to EC or LC are not rich – they simply (like me) wish their kids to have the best education possible in a system that is sub standard. To afford it many simply go without perceived luxuries. Fact.”
As I recall, the debate to close the Grammar school took place either in or very close to the year 2000. Whichever it was it was just after the Grammar school made higher academic achievements than the colleges.
I believed then, as did a lot of people, that this was the main cause of the attempt to close it down.
I take it from what you said that you were pro closing the Grammar school. Why would that be if not to promote the Them and Us ethos that others have alluded to as so prevalent in Guernsey.
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Hats off to Carol Steere,not a particularly likeable character but she is at least putting her head above the parapit and getting the electorate debating where savings are acceptable. What other deputies are putting cases forward? Why are we not looking first at middle management costs, how many £50K plus costs could we lose and not notice any reduction in front line services? If education is to lose any service it must be the Music Service,@ £650K plus to give some children free instrument lessons when they are already taught music as part of the curriculum. As with any other activity Drama, Dancing,Sport etc if you want your child to progress in a particular discipline pay for it. If not give the same level of support to other activities. The UK do not see the need for a taxpayer paid Music Service.
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I think it is ridiculous that the states are chucking money at a school that most certainly has no need for it. What about re-building beaucampe? These people have chosen to isolate they’r children from children from families with a lower income and so there is no question that the 11+ is being used as a way to save money by families that are capable of paying full fees anyway. I am backing Carole Steere all the way. I am a 12 yr old girl and I think that the schools don’t need the money.
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Jackie, why on earth are you sending your boys to that place? They may turn out like our Chief Minister….
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Now that I have been enlightened on more facts I have completely changed my views on this debate.
It would be prudent to completely scrap the education council and allow the college boards to take control of all schools.
If they can produce much better results for a lot less then their is a lot of dead wood in our current education system.
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David said “Surely the first area for Deputy Steere to focus on is the massive number of “educational admininstrators” – one of Guernsey’s fastest-growing “industries”. The wastage in that department is criminal. A huge chunk of the £1.5m budget shortfall could be saved there in a flash”
Agreed and it should start with the man at the top. Problem is thst even these turkey’s are smart enough not to vote for an early Christmas. So, they will look elsewhere for as long as they can keep their nice and cushy jobs.
If anyone were to adopt a zero budget approach to a new Education Department based on real need, there would be a very different and slimmed down structure. Come to think of it the same would result throughout the States.
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Deputy Steere at it again, a few weeks grace and she wants headlines again! Even her own department had not discussed the issue. Why alarm!, other than to use the try to distract the public for asking where are the staff cuts. She said there are 13 less since 2005, why 2005, she was not appointed then, for all we know 20 staff could have gone in 2005 and since then they have increased by 7.
If the colleges closed down and the States had to pay the full cost of educating those pupils, overall costs would increase.
If Deputy Steere really wanted to save money, why does she not promote the idea of private enterprise building another larger college, which would further reduce the numbers in other schools.
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After re-thinking my previous comment, the colleges should have their own scholarship system and pay for the top children themselves.
After-all the scholarship kids are the ones who are lifting the colleges marks and making them look good.
Without the ability to scoop up the creme of the crop kids from states primary schools their marks would be floundering and noone would even want to pay to send their kids there in the first place.
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Steven – perhaps I was not clear enough. And its a bit off subject, however…
I am against selection at the age of 11. It is fundamentally wrong. That is what causes the us and them that you refer to – nothing directly to do with the colleges.
I strongly beleive in a comprehensive system that allows all children to reach their potential but on a level playing field.
If we had that system then there would be no Grammer. The colleges may continue to exist – but in a truely independent way – with fees appropriate to that status.
If this was the case my offspring would be at the comprehensive.
However, in the current system, the choice between college and Beaucamp thats about to fall down…no brainer.
Back to the thread – Ms Steere should not remove the college funding while the current system still exists.
Interesting that Alistair Langlois has distanced himself from Steer’s remarks…more joined up government!
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>>Jackie, why on earth are you sending your boys to that place? They may turn out like our Chief Minister….<<
I’m not sending them there Martyn. It’s their choice and up to them to work at it. But I take on board your point ;)
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Yes Wil.
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One of the above posts suggests that the current “subsidy” to the colleges is unethical. Why? Fee paying parents are taxpayers themselves. They are simply taking less out of the educational budget than they would be if they opted for a state school. It is fee paying parents who help to subsidise state education. The current funding to the colleges should should not be regarded as a subsidy.The children it is helping to educate cost the tax payer much less than those in state schools.
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My mistake Jackie. Your point taken too!
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So people who choose to send their children to the colleges are the real heroes in all of this saving us all a lot of money, thank you all so much! At the end of the day not one pro colleges person has posted anything explaining why the colleges are so cheap to send your children to. Also whoever thinks that should funding be trimmed the entire student content of the colleges would attend state schools is living in cloud cookoo land goodness me perish the thought. If you can’t afford the fees there are plenty of part time jobs out there. i suspect that the vast majority of parents at the colleges can well afford the fees which are cheaper than anywhere else in the u.k. and don’t wish to pay more for what they have been getting on the cheap. nobody has been able to convince me that it is moral for shop workers, cleaners, roadsweepers e.t.c to help fund private education. Sorry it’s just plain wrong.
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Kevin you are not correct.
There are two types of children that go to the colleges. Those that fee pay and those who “win” scholarships as a result of their 11+ results (i.e. they are educated gratis).
Only those who obtain the scholarships are truely funded by the figures Ms Steere is talking about.
Refer to my earlier posts on my views on the 11+ (if you wish!).
Ok there are swings and roundabouts but thats more or less it.
And incidently I don’t like my taxes being given to an alcoholic on long term sick so he can buy booze. Its just plain wrong nes pas?
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Gilthead
comparing low paid people subsidising private education to tax payers funding alcoholics mmmm!
not quite sure where your coming from there we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
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“If people are willing to pay through the nose for education, why aren’t they willing to pay more in tax? If the tax take was raised then all schools would benefit, raising the level of education and ironing out the disparities in facilities and abilities and attraction of the best teachers. After all, it is this argument that fee payers use to justify their detachedness.”
One of the natures of an economy which is not 100% state run is that people are presented with a choice in how to spend their money. If they want to spend their money to provide their children with a better education, that is their choice. The claim that if that money when to the states in tax, even if hypothecated, that their children would benefit to the same as the benefit to their children if it was paid in tax is ludicrous.
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Simon
Effectively what you are saying is; I choose to spend extra money on education and because of that I think I should be subsidised because I feel my child will benefit, and probably become a lawyer or something.
Do you believe therefore that all private tuition should be subsidised by the state? Ultimately do you believe that all education should be paid for privately? At what stage does a free for all education system be held to ransom from those that want their cake and eat it?
What exactly is a fee payer paying for? Are the teachers better? Is the curriculum better? Are the footballs more footbally?
Are you saying the state shouldn’t match these qualities? Or would you prefer that your belief that you are paying for a better service be borne out and the state education system be ‘broken’?
The same opportunities should be there for free, for all, with scope to improve. Would you take advantage of that or would you still feel the need to pay more for the same?
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Please don’t forget the landsbanki depositors!
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A predictable response from Dep Maindonald, The boot is firmly on the other foot now her own childrens education is on the line. Shame she couldn’t fight for her own ‘Parish State School’ in the same way.
A few rye smiles on the PTA’S of St Sampsons’s & St Andrews i suspect!
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Catherine, one of the things that is unethical about the funding is that because of that funding the colleges enroll a large group of state students with the purpose of lifting the colleges marks. The college then uses those marks to demonstrate their superior academic standard over states schools. In essence they are taking the top states kids and attributing their results to their own education facilities from the very year they enter.
To me this is misleading and deceptive conduct. It is my belief that even if the funding was cut, they would still need these students to market the schools to the rich. They would be crazy to cut scholarships (but arrogance and spite may drive them to it), it would be shooting themselves in the foot as overtime the true standards of the schools would come through. I might be wrong they may be better after-all but who knows?
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Gilthead is mistaken as to the nature of the taxpayer subsidy to the “colleges”. All the “college” children benefit from the handout not just the scholarship pupils. This is why their fees are so much lower than those available in the UK where there is no general subsidy other than treating private schools as charities for tax purposes.
It may be argued that the Guernsey subsidy to the private schools can be justified on the same, or similar, grounds that we use to subsidise our university undergraduates. It cannot, as seems to be argued by some, be justified as cost saving. Without the subsidy most fee paying parents would just grit their teeth and pay up, the scholarship parents would be unaffected. The Guernsey taxpayer would benefit to the tune of millions.
What is certain is that the fee paying parents are unlikely to give up their subsidy quietly and, of course, they are mostly members of the economically more fortunate and politically aware classes themselves.
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will
spot on! if the colleges don’t know they need the scholarship pupils more than the scholarship pupils need them, then the colleges really are in trouble.
cathrine
you support the colleges for your own reasons please don’t insult the rest of us by suggesting you are doing anyone a favour. you are choosing to opt out we have fantastic secondary schools here who could well use the millions of pounds given to the colleges each year. you really have no idea which is sad.What you fail to realise is the state system could survive without the colleges ,the colleges may not survive without scholarship students. if I were you I’d be saying a big thank you to all tax payers especially the less well off who’s taxes help the colleges survive.
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Gilthead your argument is fundamentally flawed. There is absolutely no reason why the eleven plus and the Grammar would need to be abolished if funding to the colleges was withdrawn.
However I can see why the colleges would have a vested interest in that point of view. Basically the same reason they would have liked to have seen the back of the grammar school earlier this decade. It’s all about achievement statistics which Wil adequately points out in his post of February 26, 2009 at 4:47 pm.
Further to your reply to my earlier post concerning the ‘Them an Us ethos’ you said:
“I am against selection at the age of 11. It is fundamentally wrong. That is what causes the us and them that you refer to – nothing directly to do with the colleges.”
Leaving the ethics of selection aside, certainly when Mr Balls was principal of the Grammar an emphasis was placed on social ethics and belief in equality. The ‘Them and Us’ seems to stem from the colleges which leads me to believe that no emphasis is placed on social ethics and equality whatsoever at the colleges, but, more probably, are taught to believe they are the ‘elite’.
My last point of reply concerns the manner in which you opened your reply to me, you said:
“Steven – perhaps I was not clear enough. And its a bit off subject, however…
What was that? As in however I will condescend to accomodate you going off topic even though I started it. ;-)
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Ted – yes you are right re funding. But the fee payers are cheaper to educate than if they were in the state sector. The majority of the subsedy is for scholarship pupils.
Steven – calm down!
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Wil – “one of the things that is unethical about the funding is that because of that funding the colleges enroll a large group of state students with the purpose of lifting the colleges marks”
Well they failed in this respect when giving me a scholarship!!!!
Maybe I had a good day when taking the 11+ exam or even ‘got lucky’ as some people put it.
From my own 7 years experience at EC, the results between fee payers and scholarship students were fairly even. So while your theory makes sense, in reality it is not as clear cut as you would think.
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I think the States should fund education and all schools whether private or public to a certain level.
This way all schools are funded to a certain level and since we are all tax payers why should this funding be removed from the private sector.
Clearly parents choosing the private route are paying for extra’s not considered to be important in public schools.
The question is why do parents feel private is better and why doesn’t public schools satisfy them…..and it’s nothing to do with elitism. All parents, or at least those that care, what the best for their children!
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Russ said
“From my own 7 years experience at EC, the results between fee payers and scholarship students were fairly even. So while your theory makes sense, in reality it is not as clear cut as you would think.”
Doesn’t this highlight the absurdity of the situation. Whether you pay or not you get educated. In an advanced society this should be provided for, it raises the education of the whole population if easily accessible. What the defenders of subsidised fee paying schools are really advocating is that some children SHOULD be left behind because of either inability to pay or an arbitary cull.
We should all want what’s best for our children. We should all agitate to the States to improve education across the board. Paying and getting subsidised just defers the problem to another person (usually less well off) and another time (your children’s children).
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Gilthead.
Either defend your argument intelligently or concede your point with grace.
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If it costs +/-£5,000 to educate a child at a non-fee paying school but only +/-£2,000 at the colleges, haven’t i just saved the states £21,000 over the 7 years i’ve paid for my daughter to attend ladies college?
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Seeing as we are in a world where everyone passes everything, its hard to argue that the system doesn’t work. Grammar was 90 odd pas rate for A levels last year? The system is almost perfect.
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I don’t believe you can master such a high degree of subtle sarcasm, Jackie.
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Noone seems to have pointed out one of the biggest reasons that parents send their children to private schools – and no its not for perceived “better” education – its the networking opportunities for parents. This is what a lot of parents are really paying for.
Parents get to network with other parents from the private schools to give themselves an advantage and get themselves ahead in the workplace. In a small island like this it works brilliantly. To say that the colleges are not elitist is to say that the sky is not blue.
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Steven – it’s an opinion. I do not wish to “argue” with you or anyone else.
Your opinion is different to mine – so lets leave it there.
I will not concede my point either!
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Wil – networking for parents as one of the biggest reasons – how does this contribute to the discussion – you are taking the donkey
1. If the states system (which it should be) was as good then I would have had no issue sending my sons to states school – I am UK comp educated and successful but education 12-16 was very poor and I only woke up when i could not get a job
2. One son did not pass 11+ or infact college entrance exam first time but faced with the school he was going to, we decided to pay. His key trouble was timekeeping during exams and whilst he got a good % on what he answered, he never finished more than 60% of the questions.
3. Recently we sat down with a friend (my boss who could afford to pay)who’s son (through many tutors)got a scholarship and pleased that our sons results exceeded his a couple of years later
For me the results are promising which are down to the teaching and dicipline that the college expects. My son does on average 10 hours a week homework – His friends from States Junior are lucky to get 5 hours. He needs dicipline and focus which they do not offer.
I believe we do need to have both systems and yes it is personal choice to pay the extra which is caused by Guernsey not investing enough .Increase the fees by 3k and give me a tax rebate (will only cover 20%) and I will still cost the taxpayer less and not cause the states system to go into meltdown. Imagine another 15 pupils in each year at Beauchamp and 90% of the islands children suffering
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>>My son does on average 10 hours a week homework – His friends from States Junior are lucky to get 5 hours. He needs dicipline and focus which they do not offer.<<
Child meets parental expectations.
10 hours a week? Let the child live for god’s sake.
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