Parent’s elitism fear for education
Tuesday 24th February 2009, 2:30PM GMT.
Susan Dumont and her 15-year-old daughter Ellen outside Ladies’ College yesterday. Mrs Dumont fears the States will create an elitist education system if it withdraws funding from the colleges. (Picture by Peter Frankland, 0724868)
PARENTS of children at the island’s colleges reacted with dismay yesterday at suggestions that vital States funding might be withdrawn.
And it also emerged that there is a split on the Education Department’s political board over minister Carol Steere’s suggestion that the £4.5m. subsidy could be better spent elsewhere.
Her deputy, Allister Langlois, distanced himself from the remarks and said that Education should not be spreading alarm and despondency among parents, pupils and staff.
The matter has not even been discussed by the board.
Ladies’ College principal Jo Riches also said that it was unhelpful to create alarm – especially since the whole funding issue in any event had to be reviewed for 2012.
Blanchelande College head Lesley Le Page said today that educating college students in States schools would actually be more expensive for the taxpayer.
Elizabeth College pointed out that the bulk of the money it received was used to support students going there via the 11-plus system.
Mother-of-two Susan Dumont, who has a son at Elizabeth College and a daughter at Ladies’ College, said she would hate to see the effect of such a loss. ‘It would create an elitist element and would not be good for the children at either college or for the island.’
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Once again the looney left show a cosiderable lack of unerstanding of the real ecconomics of life. We have a deficit, so let us increase it by forcing children out of the colleges and into the state sector!
Be grateful that some parents are prepared to ease the burden on the education budget by subsidising the States.
But of course if I was to stop and think this out I would realise that this type of approach would require even higher levels of taxation for the left to squander!
If all the pupils presently at the colleges were to present themselves for States education where would we put them? How many more millions to build more schools?
It is noted that the opportunity is being taken to raise the question of the 11 plus.
The argument goes that it is unfair that the pupils who get through to the colleges will get a better education. Surely the simple answer to that would be to raise the level of education in the State sector to that of the colleges. I acknowledge that the Grammar school is doing an excellent job. Just bring the others up to the higher standard of education and the problem is solved.
If the argument then is that not all pupils are suitable to be educated at the higher level then that, surely, is evidence in support of the 11 plus, always provided that late developers can be placed into the higher level of education.
I feel quite certain, that being a States Department, there is a wasteful plethora of administration staff who would be better employed outside the public sector. Thereby putting the education budget back into surplus without the need to destroy what is good about our education system.
The last thing that we need is the disasters that have befallen the UK education system as a result of the brilliance? of socialisim.
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Carole Steere seems to have lost the plot.
She was never going to close St Andrews but then went out of her way and would not back down even though it was pointed out she was lying.
She is now wanting to create unease for something which needs looking into in 2012.
What next. Is she going to parade up and down the high street with sandwich boards stating the end of the world is nearly upon us?
She is fitting into the states very nicely though. It seems as though she is mandated to put out unpopular smokescreens so that other things can be passed off as softened down versions without any challenge.
She desperately needs to take stock. Everybody is having to make do with a little bit less. Lots are trying to fob others off with this loss but the reality is we all need to make the best of a bad situation and ride it out.
This recession is bad for some. It is also good for others. A balance is there to be found. People just need to look for it. Put the luxury lifestyles into the distance for now and work towards the future for them again.
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Elitism fears – what a joke! The kids at these schools already feel superior to kids at the Grammar and highly superior to those in state schools especially crumbly shoddy ones.
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Carole Steer is deluded if she thinks that everyone who is privately educating their children can happily afford it. Many work very hard to be able to find the funds. All taxpayers pay towards the education of the island children – whether they have children or not. People who pay to educate their children are effectively paying twice as they would be entitled to free education otherwise. Perhaps Carol Steer needs to be educated in basic economics herself before she spouts forth about elitist education. Does she really think that everyone privately educating their children would carry on doing so if the grant was removed. We could end up with hundreds of extra children demanding a free states education. How about some lateral thinking and build a new high school that covers Beaucamps and La Mare – this is only a tiny island!
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But what about those who desperately value education but could NEVER afford even the “subsidised” fees. Why should those who can afford these fees be entitled to a superior education that is subsidised by the tax payer?
We already have an elitist system – those who can afford to pay (however hard they work for it) and those who can’t.
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Serena – you are joking? try speaking to a few Grammar school kids to get the low down on elitism. They are at that school simply because they are one of the top 25% who passes to it – and don’t they know it!!! They are the ones who look down on the rest of the schools as they know that the kids who make it to the secondarys failed their 11 plus.
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This is real “cut-off-nose-to-spite-face” stuff. If the subsidy is withdrawn, then two things would happen almost immediately.
The fees charged at the Colleges would have to go up substantially. And a large number of parents would refuse / be unable to pay, withdrawing their children and thereby requiring a place at another school.
Then, pretty soon after, the colleges would find that they couldn’t balance the books, and would close. Almost all the (formerly fee-paying) students would then also want a States-funded place. A very few would be sent by parents to boarding schools in the UK.
Net result? An actual increase in cost to the States, who would be paying for the education of almost all the former College pupils, rather than just some of them.
But now my cynical politician alarm is going off… perhaps the intention here is not to withdraw funding, but just a political gesture to try to make some point (“I’m thinking the unthinkable… I’m against elitism… I am making every effort to cut costs…”).
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Once again we hear the defendants of taxpayers support for educational privilege arguing that withdrawal of this support would cost more than it saved. This assumes that all those who now choose to buy special treatment for their children would switch into the public sector if there were no subsidy. Of course, they would not; it is only human nature that many, if not most, would pay whatever it cost to send their children to whatever centres of privilege were available wherever they might be. As a consequence, there would be a real saving of taxpayers money if the subsidy to the “colleges” were withdrawn.
Whether the taxpayer should support the “colleges” is more a political or, perhaps, social engineering, issue rather than an economic question.
What we do know is that the pro “eleven plus” case was won by the undertaking to bring up the standard of all island schools to that of the best. We are still, all these years later, a long way from that. This should be our priority and not the provision of the best education only for the few.
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I wonder if the spat between the Education Minister and her Deputy Minister would have been best played out in the Department meetings and not in public.
Or are we seeing the start of a get rid of Mrs Steere campaign by the establishment.
Mrs Steere
Remember the Ideas of March, and take care not to play Ceasar to Langlois’s Brutus on 15 March.
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It shouldn’t be a case of “hundreds of extra kids demanding free education”! There should be provision to offer free education to everyone, at a high level fitting with our much vaunted standard of living! People are seeing this from the wrong angle. The state must feel duty bound to do the very best for the next generations, not pander to those who demand they should get subsidies because they feel the state is not providing!
All we are doing by maintaining this status quo is reinforcing the idea that ‘some kids will make it and if they don’t they will feel neglected’.
This quote from Jasper, above, says it all about Guernsey:
“But of course if I was to stop and think this out I would realise that this type of approach would require even higher levels of taxation for the left to squander!”
It perpetuates the belief that as long as the individual is doing OK then rest can get knotted.
If our system of revenue collection and distribution is so perfect why the devil are we facing deficits, black holes, public service cuts and employees who are starting to think about taking drastic strike action? Nope, as long as the rich can afford to pay for what they need then that’s fine. Meanwhile, back in reality, schools are falling down.
Taxes are only squandered by inept politicians making rubbish decisions. We vote them in. It’s time we start voting people in that have their priorities right. The rich are not a priority. Never have been.
Get rid of the ‘stealth taxes’ (I never understand why their called that – everyone knows they’re there, hardly very stealthy) and raise income tax across the board, introducing higher bands while we’re about it. Get politicians with clear public mandates for spending that revenue, whatever political spectrum you lean to, we need a clear direction and clear opposition to that direction.
This dithering and backbiting is more destructive than the status quo I’m ranting about. We need democracy, the public needs to feel it’s being listened to – ‘left’ or ‘right’.
The current situation across all walks of governmental decision making clearly highlights that there is not enough money in the pot. Cutting services (and I can understand the economic argument about this current issue, if there is no investment in the state education system, then releasing these kids into it will be a net drain) will only cause worse problems in the future.
The UK did this in the eighties and it has left unbridgable gaps for future governments to fully satisfy the needs of the majority.
This has happened here for decades.
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Sarnia Expat, being a Grammar student I wonder which students you have been talking to. Perhaps petty rivalry in the move from Year 6 to Year 7 is evident, however, past that point there is certainly no “looking down” on the other schools.
As a sixth form student since september, all the Grammar students have been joined by the students of the other schools, and it is quite clear, as we all knew before they came, that there is no difference in intelligence, class, or any distinguishing characteristics that you feel we hold against them.
You seem to have no faith in the fact that our teenagers of today are not killing each other like they are in England, we do not have gang culture. Guernsey children of all ages are brought up well, with the odd exception, to respect each other, and I think it is time you got past this stereotype.
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Belinda – what makes you think that the education at the private schools is better than in the States schools? It is merely a matter of how people choose to spend their money. We decided to send one of our three children to a private school as it was the best option for them (for a number of reasons). We can not “afford” it without sacrifice and do not have expensive foreign holidays etc etc. You have missed the point that all education on the island is subsidised by the taxpayer – we are therefore paying twice!
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Its been nearly 10 years since I left the hell hole to give my kids a fighting chance! The states went through this arguement in 2000 and missed the chance to upgrade the education system. There was elitism in the establishment then and there is now. I for my sins had to go to Beaucamp and it was falling down then, Carol Steere should know she sat two desks away. The island should get some balls and stand up for the children who deserve better.
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Queenbee – it is absolutely right that the tax payer funds education. The same goes for private healthcare…would you rather we had zero taxes and let the poor be damned? Why do you resent “paying twice” as you put it? You have chosen a different educational system becuase, however hard you may work, you can afford to. Plenty of people don’t have holidays at all (whether expensive or not), so excuse me if I don’t come across sympathetic to your “plight”…
However, the state provides education free to all children. Those that then choose to opt out of what is provided for free and choose private education should pay the market price. And please, of course education – certainly in purely academic terms is better at the pricate schools. It only takes a cursory glance at the GCSE and A Level results to see how private education is a benefit, even better, look at the destinations of school leavers and tell me that private education does not give its students academic and social advantages.
I am paying twice for my children’s education too! I am paying my taxes towards the state system (which my children are in) and also paying to subsidise the private sector. Great.
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Queenbee – quite agree with you. In a nutshell.
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Perhaps we should be asking why the education appears to be better at the independent schools? Maybe because the top academics in year 6 are offered scholarships, but that means maybe a third of each year group (unsure about the numbers) so maybe it is something else.
Others have suggested that a lot of wealthy people pay for extra coaching in order to assist their children to pass the 11+ but this would not reflect in high GCSE and A Level results at the colleges. The grammar school evens out by the 6th form. The fee paying students are not all academics but the one difference is that they are single sex schools up to 6th form – does this make a difference?? Research is divided on this. The Ladies College as a building is nothing to harp on about – with many outside huts as classrooms.
Perhaps the whole idea of the 11+ needs looking at again. As others have said the schools all meet up in the 6th form anyway so what is the point of the grammar school? Some students from the independent schools also transfer to the grammar school for 6th form studies or even to the College of FE. Elizabeth and Ladies’ College merge in the 6th form to offer more subjects too. My personal view is that the colleges will continue even if funding is withdrawn – but they will become elitist, something they are not at present.
Yes, difficult decisions have to be made but lets hope our politicians make the right ones for the right reasons.
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I say – cut the funding! (or at least reduce it significantly).
The colleges will still give out scholarships because they need the higher grades from the bright kids to market the schools to the rich.
Why should the states have to pay for what is essentially the colleges “marketing campaign”?
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Belinda – I never said I “resented” paying twice and as I said I do have two children in the states system so am able to look at it from both sides. My point is merely that taxpayers are paying a proportion of all taxpayers money towards educating ALL children – that seems fair to me. Some parents then decide to opt to pay more on top of that for a Private education. Where do you expect the large number of children to go if they come out of the private sector? I also, as it happens, pay insurance for health, car, life, home etc as it is MY responsibility to cover for these things not the “welfare state”!(FYI the fees for the “private” school are funded by several family members. Sometimes necessity dictates)
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I agree with Exile – we should all turn our backs on this island and jumpo ship. As Exile says – ‘time to leave the hell hole.’ Anybody for an overseas game of ‘croquet’?!
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The colleges are far shoddier than The Grammar or Les Nicolles, and would give Beaucamps and La Mare a run for their money in many areas of inadeqacy. It is a combination of suffering these hardships while maintaining some personal standards – uniform, appearance, politeness – that builds character. If the kids feel superior, then that is a result of many things, including the inclusiveness and attitudes of the school, which are designed to build confidence.
The education isn’t “better” in any terms that many a socialist would even begin to comprehend- all schools have to cover the Nat Curriculum. But the liberals and the left would abandon traditional uniforms in favour of a sweatshirt, colour to be voted on by the kids. They’d then make the schools co-ed. Most lefties wouldn’t entertain some of the subjects and activities. The academic education at the current colleges already isn’t a patch on what I received in the seventies in an old fashioned state school.
If the colleges’ GCSE results are good, it’s because the kids are worked. They aren’t all exceptionally bright – most are fee payers, yet the results show the academic value of the college system of self-discipline, hard work and hard play. There is parental support, too – you don’t pay a fortune in fees to then ignore your kids’ needs in the evening. Some of the kids also compete openly with each other academically and in other activities. Most will, as a result, work harder for those few extra marks.
Current fees are comparable to UK day pupils at some public schools.
Academic education has been around a lot longer than sixties socialist thinking, and will outlast it. In the end, this issue will simply boil down to whether the kids receiving a traditional schooling really are only those of the rich.
Finally, if all the state schools were like the colleges, my kids would be in state school, crumbly or otherwise. It’s the overall attitude of the institution that makes the lasting impression on the kids.
We are all paying more than necessary for everything the state does. If the axe has to fall in education, then there are a lot of surplus civil servants there, with stupendously generous pensions. Yes, there is scope to reduce the college grants, but then there is scope to reduce a lot of things – bus subsidies being one of them. That’s a private company too, remember, and surely is no more “strategic” than providing the island with the next generation of lawyers, accountants and chief ministers.
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No funding = No scholorships = less students at college(class size)= BETTER EDUCATION but will increase fees = less parents to afford and so it goes on.
Lets go for this BUT all parents who send their children to college can claim the cost of their childs education as a deductable expense on their tax. A tax rebate of 20% of the cost may cover the increase in fees and still is significantly cheaper on the states then if they burdened the states school
Key benefit (unless schools are improved) is a 1/5 of the children that would normally get into Grammar would then be in other schools as the scholarship students take their Grammer school place so improving the results of low performing schools
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Bob – how dare you imply that “lefties” would be the ruin of education.
I am proud that my “left wing” views lead me to consider the whole of society rather than focus on my own selfish ambitions. I am proud that my children attend a States school where they are learning to mix with children from all walks of life – just as they will have to do in the real world.
I value education, support my children at home and will support them in achieving academic excellence at every stage of their schooling.
If, as you claim, the colleges outperform the other schools because parents support the children’s education at home, why would those children do any less well at a States school, with the same parental interest at home? Are you saying that if you weren’t paying fees then you would not bother to help with homework? If parents value education then wherever their children are, they will flourish.
Your tirade highlights your total ignorance of the local school system. Try speaking to some parents who have withdrawn their children from the colleges due to the shocking bullying (including serious assaults), and the hypocrisy of parental gifts to the school to avoid their children being expelled. Luck that the colleges have their old boy and girl networks to make sure that such incidents can be quietly brushed under the carpet.
My children attend a school with a “dodgy” catchment area. The head has taken steps to introduce zero tolerance policies for bullying, phenomenally high standards of discipline, and has so many activities for the children to do. Children are streamed from the second term of reception to ensure that they are receiving the most appropriately pitched education. They have a wonderfully diverse mix of friends and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
There is nothing “untraditional” about the education they are receiving and I am sure that they will go on to achieve great things both academically and socially. You don’t need a college education to become a lawyer, a doctor or Chief Minister! What you do need is supportive parents – and it matters not a jot whether your parents are paying for education or not. What matters is that parents are interested in their child’s progress.
Are your children in primary/secondary education? Did you even give the state schools a chance?
Once again, this debate merely highlights the pomposity of so many, and their scathing opinions of the “have nots” and the world they inhabit (or, of course, the “choose to have nots”).
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Firstly, clearly the £4.5 million subsidy could be spent much more effectively elsewhere in Guernsey. That money could be used to help kick-start State-run nursery education or to help out generally in the States’ secondary schools. That would be a much wiser use of scarce public resources. Why should private schools receive a government subsidy at all? Are they not economically street-wise enough to run at a profit without such assistance?
Secondly, perhaps there would be less of a social mixture if the grants were taken away or reduced but, if this was considered to be a real problem from the Colleges’ point of view, the onus would be on those schools to take steps to provide their own funding for pupils from poorer backgrounds. I also suspect that only a very small proportion of those children who attend the Colleges on scholarships at present are from so called ”working class” backgrounds.
Thirdly, we already have an elitist education system. If Deputy Steere was serious about wanting to demolish “elitism” in secondary education, she would be advocating 1) abolition of the private sector in secondary education and 2) the comprehensivisation of all other States schools. She is clearly not doing that.
Finally,I agree with Belinda. You don’t have to go to the Colleges to get to be a doctor or a lawyer. Many of the new wave of advocates in this island are Grammar-educated & from perfectly ordinary backgrounds.
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Bob
You’re not going to tell me that our CM got there because of his academic brilliance!?!
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Most of the funding that the colleges receive goes towards paying the “fees” for the scholarship pupils (as demonstrated by the fact that many lessons at ladies college are taught in “temporary” huts – surely if they were rolling in it they could have at least built some permanent huts?!) Having gone to a state primary school, through pure hard work and merit I achieved a scholarship at the Ladies College. The first thing I will say is that the teaching at that school is, in my opinion, unsurpassed on this island. Being a relatively quiet child, and no doubt classed as “swotty” I can say with some certainty that I would have been mercilessly bullied (or is that too strong a word? Perhaps, teased… ) should I have gone anywhere else. The pupils at the colleges do not feel that they belong to some “elite” group, however many of the pupils at other schools on the island must feel that they do, because I can tell you that should a group of college pupils venture into the big wide world in their uniform, they will be harassed by other children – calling them “snobby” and “posh”. We never walked around with our noses turned up at them, quite the opposite! They were firmly pointed to the ground as we scurried as quickly as possibly from place to place so as to not get noticed and teased!
Quite apart from that, the fact that children of ordinary (not well off) families have the opportunity to receive an exceptional education is, in my mind, one of the most impressive things we can say about Guernsey. The one place I can imagine that superior education is provided, to those who deserve it, for free. And Bob is entirely right. The old-fashioned standards of discipline and hard work, where nothing but the best is expected and pupils are taught that they will get nothing for nothing is exactly the basis for this superior education. Nothing to do with money, all about values.
I have nothing but gratitude for the opportunities and values that this education has provided me with. If the funding is pulled from the colleges I see no other possible outcome than them closing, which in my mind would be a great shame for the educational future of children on Guernsey.
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bob and p with respect you are talking absolute rubbish and as a result do a complete disservice to the schools you attended.Boys college has a swimming pool, great gym, two playing fields, an all weather floodlit football\hockey pitch, tennis court and cricket nets in town, access to rifle shooting and plans in for a new pavillion for one of the playinfg fields and I have no reason to think that academic facilities fall below the sporting ones.p all of the colleges get all fees paid for scholarship pupils(absolutely right too) plus another £2000 per scholarship pupil.visit les beaucamps and even you two die hards will hang your heads in shame you both have no idea. My son teaches at one of our secondary schools and you have no idea how much he has to mend and make do. by the way I cant find any similar schools in the u.k. charging less than ladies college.
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pablo great idea! I could then claim tax relief on the money I paid to put two of my sons through uni and tax relief on my private health insurance.
thanks.
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College funding cannot be reviewed without considering the future of the 11 Plus, as the latter really only exists as a device to justify the continuing subsidy. It highlights the absurdity of the 11 Plus that large numbers of “failures” re-join their peers in a common 6th Form at the Grammar School.
We have plenty of other issues in education requiring urgent spending (e.g. Beaucamp), and we should stop subsidising the wealthy by giving public funding to people who have decided to withdraw their children from the public education provision.
Apart from educational provision, the Colleges perpetuate elitism in our little society.
Following on from that, however, the preponderance of ex-College boys in the States unfortunately means any change in this area is unlikely, however rational the case. And no, this is not proof of the great educational merit of the Colleges – the academic record of many of these Deputies was not particularly distinguished.
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So in a nutshell are we talking about academic elitism or social elitism?
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I have nothing against streaming kids academically eg Grammar as we all cant be brain surgeons but I do have a problem subsidising social elitism.
Lets face it if they banned private schools the rich and powerful wouldnt be so cavalaire about the state system as their offspring would have to attend.
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Belinda:
All of mine went to or are currently at state schools, as did my parents, my sister and I. I confess that I only have knowledge of the local education system from my own family’s attendance at local state schools over the last hundred years or so (granny’s 90+), and that of my children’s primary education, together with that of umpteen nieces and nephews. One or two had the temerity to become teachers, too. I am an employer, in the finance sector, and actively am involved in recruitment each year. Some of my best and most loyal staff were educated at either St Sampsons or St Peter Port. Most of the local directors/partners went to Grammar or the colleges. The reason they are partners or directors? Simply, they have the right qualifications and attitude. This will change over coming years, as more children are now educated to “A” level standard and beyond. Then, attendance at one of the colleges or Grammar from 11 onward seemed a prerequisite for A levels or degrees. Thankfully, it isn’t any more.
Its definitely horses for courses, and the course for mine was the colleges. It wasn’t a straightforward decision. The planned closure of St Sampson’s part way through my kids’ academic career was a factor. I had no problem with St Sampsons, and the teachers seemed great. The Grammar came out bottom. I have no doubt (now) that my son achieves more (and more to the point, has greater desire to achieve, and is more competitive) at College than he would have done at St Sampsons. That wouldn’t necessarily have been the fault of the teaching staff at St Sampsons. It was a wild place in my youth, though.
We would have actually preferred Beaucamps, but aren’t in the catchment area, and there is talk of rebuilding (hence disruption)that too.
As for the lefties, well, at UK national level they’d do away with all choice in education, and that is well documented. Some councils have resisted. It was Labour that wanted to abolish all Grammar schools. And as I said, even the colleges have dumbed down as a result of the national curriculum.
As for parental support – mine have always received it and always will. The majority of parents at all schools care passionately. The point about the Colleges (and this is doubtless true of Grammar, too) is that the number of those that don’t give full support is tiny, if there are any at all.
Exile – they are talking social elitism, usually from the ironic position of looking down their neo-socialist noses at those wishing to maintain traditional standards.
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Bob
It was the Tory Government in the 80s that introduced the national curriculum.
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Kevin – ever been to the colleges? Shabby chic is the best description. Outdoor, smallish pool at EC by the way. Any serious swimming has to be done at Beau Sejour. Mending and making do happens at the colleges too. Some of the buildings are hundreds of years old, not just forty-odd. Any trip around the main EC building by a Beaucamp parent wouldn’t leave them insanely jealous!
The State wouldn’t have a school divided by a busy road, or with the playing fields a mile away or more. If EC was a state school, they would be moving it to another site, as the extant site would be decried as unfit for purpose.
The sporting facilities at EC are undeniably excellent, and a reason for some parents to send their offspring there. Yet so are those of La Mare, the former St Peter Port, Grammar and I dare say Les Nicolles. At least all those schools have their playing fields on site.
Fees are lower at Ladies College than EC. I don’t know about Blanchelande. EC compares with day pupil rates at lesser public schools in UK.
Chris “Many of the new wave of advocates in this island are Grammar-educated & from perfectly ordinary backgrounds.” So what? Most of the kids at college are from perfectly ordinary backgrounds. The scholarship youngsters would presumably otherwise be at Grammar, displacing others into Beaucamps, et al, in turn displacing others from the top sets in various subjects there. Either way, those boys and girls at the top end would prosper.
Fast Robert – Definitely…..not! But to overcome a lack of ability through determination and sheer self-belief…
Overall, the best thing about the colleges is that they are not states run, and can self-determine based on the overall need of their target client base.
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Bob
Because they are not States run why should the States spend money on them? They are not there for the good of the entire island, only a lucky few.
It is a lack of political will, due to connections that has perpetuated this ‘we’re out of scope don’t dictate’ but ‘ we need your money to survive’ mentality. Nothing to do with democracy or good governance.
You can choose to opt out and do denigrate the state system, but don’t pretend you’re doing anyone a favour. That’s just nonsense. Even if you took the economic argument of it costing more to educate a child through the public purse, the effect is to remove motivated individuals from the common pool, thus lowering the pool’s ambition and so giving strength to the argument of opting out.
So what if it’s ‘social engineering’, Guernsey is in dire need of commited and loyal thinkers to break the shambles we’ve had over the years. Cosy power broking in the top echelons of the old boy’s network. This new crop of powerful finance industry leaders are continuing the golf club mentality that makes us a laughing stock to most outsiders.
It’s frankly embarrassing when one describes how decisions are made, who makes them and how it’s come about through history. Only the forunate can say ‘it isn’t broken so don’t fix it’. What about the generations that have felt second class to this blasé attitude.
I know people that work all hours. That’s just to pay the ridiculous bills caused by massive distortions in the markets caused by the pursual of this type of appeasement. At what stage will they be able to afford the fees? Whichever way it’s looked at the choice for ‘opting out’ should not be subsidised. If you want to promote private educational standards then the institution should pay for it. It is a minority interest.
What next? The state subsidises my flying lessons? Or my stamp collecting hobby?
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bob yep! ive been to both colleges when I was at the grammar school and i was insanely jealous of their facilities! Perhaps if the college had spent more of their £10,000 per pupil budget on the buildings rather than flashy sporting facilities, they have plans to build a new pavilion, which shows where their priorities lie, the buildings would be better. Perhaps you should lobby the powers that be at e.c. to scrap the pavilion plans and use the money for the school buildings. By the way which of elizabeth college’s playing fields are you talking about. to say that les beaucamps and st.peter port sporting facilities are comparable to those of the college just shows how out of touch the priviliged are I note you didn’t mention St. Sampsons remember them? they didn’t even have a playing field.each time a state secondry school is upgraded or built the college connections grumble about how bad facilities are at the colleges. remember those who send their kids to the colleges have a choice about that. if it’s as bad as you say why bother? Most of the parents of schoolchildren at state schools dont have that choice.
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Kevin – that must have been the year they decorated it… along time ago, methinks. As it happens, I don’t mind the shabby buildings. I survived the leaky Brock Road Grammar and it’s thirty year-old text books, and it’s mile-away playing fields (Les Varendes – next to EC’s). My parents could barely afford to kit me out with the uniform, so any idea that I’m from a priveleged background is ridiculous. And no-one, least of all me is grumbling about the colleges’ facilities – I am simply dispelling the myth that they have vastly superior facilities. They are just different, and perhaps treated with a deal more respect.
Not long ago, it was “unfair” that the Grammar had new, improved facilities, when St Sampson’s didn’t, or Beaucamps didn’t. That alone provoked a debate on the 11+. No doubt, it’s now unfair, somehow that Les Nicolles has. But that’s OK ‘cos its a state comprehensive. Funny that it wasn’t unfair on the old Boys’ and Girls’ Grammar kids when La Mare was new, or Beaucamps, or St Peter Port. St Sampsons had Delancey Park next door, with all those facilities. Blimey, come to think of it, they even had a bowling green…must get on to the College governors- we’re being left behind!
Fast Robert:
Nat Curriculum – yep – probably the Tories trying to demonstrate a vote-grabbing “commitment” to standards after years of decline. Thoroughly resisted by the teaching unions, and mucked about with since then. One size or style does not fit all.
“the effect is to remove motivated individuals from the common pool, thus lowering the pool’s ambition” Hardly. The problem is that the general pool isn’t sufficiently motivated for many kids. Chucking a few highly motivated kids into the general pool will make virtually no difference to the majority, and will demotivate some of the minority. Thus you gain a little in the middle, but stand to lose a large part of the academic “pinnacle”.
We would need very, very many hours to thoroughly air all the contributory issues, and we wouldn’t change each others’ minds one iota.
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Bob
My brother is a governor in a northern UK ‘inner city’ school. He’s done it for ten years. He has seen the reality of the media-hysteria inspired myth that the country is ‘breaking’ because of a lack of discipline, a lack of teaching skills and a ‘socialist doctrine’. The last thirty years have been a free for all for the wealthy and for those that buy into the heavily marketed aspiration for wealth.
This has gone hand in glove with the middle classes deserting state funded education and opting to pay for education. The result has been a drain of the motivated parents, rightly seeking excellence, from schools that were not failing, into the pockets of private enterprise.
It creates a vicious circle of decline and perceptions of decline.
His daughter has just been accepted to Oxford Uni from a supposedly ‘badly run’ school. His sons are passing grade 8 music exams from state funded programs. He has a phd after graduating from Oxford, schooled in a very ordinary comp. His wife is a couple of papers away from becoming a Professor in molecular biology. Schooled in a London comp.
It is a myth that state schooling will fail children. It is all to do with parental motivation. If there is a failure then the cycle needs breaking for the sake of the majority.
Opt out by all means, but pay for it in entirety.
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Fast Robert
It’s comforting to know that you will have somewhere to stay when you finally leave the Island you hate with such passion.
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Mmmmm corect comments fast Bob-social influences the chain needs breaking (single mums breed single mums ethosn is a similar debate). I left a state run school in Guernsey at 14 with no GCSE’s. I went into the working class job market. I decided later in life that i needed to follow what i wanted at school i just wasnt ready. I put myself through over 6 years of school to start a Phd and then leave to become a teacher. My comments on the Guernsey Schools: 1) too many are closing. 2) Whats the catchment area all about no wheres far-why not let parents choose. If they live in the vale and work in town why not left them take there kids to a town school and VICE VERSA. 3) I work in a mixed comp…..too many children suffer at the disruption of the disaffected (inclusion policys ra ra ra). Keep the 11 plusand let the ahead continue to stay ahead. 4)Ive heard a lot about Great Sports Facilities…do they get students a career, because maybe ive been missing something. 5) If you ant afford to pay…you dont have it. Education is like an expensive new jacket. You either pay for it, put it on the credit card or choose an alternative.
It sounds to me, that too many people are edging that the college/grammer teachers are just so much better than the state teachers…..crap. Its the student, the parent…then the teacher and lastly the school building!
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Interesting in the news this weekend that in the UK there is a mass exodus from fee paying schools as belts are tightened and the performing state schools are over subscribed leading to 1 in 6 (roughly) not getting their first choice.
So much for the ethos that paid schools are any better. It’s all about the perceived privilege.
Ray
How can I hate an island? I’m allowed to comment on what I feel is an unfair system. I’m not the first and I won’t be the last. I could argue that taking the opposing view is bad for Guernsey and that by attacking me you are attacking a desire for positive change and a better Guernsey. I would say that I am doing the opposite of ‘hating’. I am concerned and am taking an active interest in what’s going on around me.
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Fast Robert.
You demolish your ‘So much for the ethos that paid schools are any better’ argument when you say in your first paragraph that the reason for the exodus is ‘belt tightening’.
These are parents who were no doubt scraping the barrel to avoid their children having to put up with the standard of teaching displayed in mmm’s error ridden post of 28 Feb
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That’s it Fast Robert – the privilege is just that – PERCEIVED.
Just because parent’s can’t afford to send their kids to public schools any more, doesn’t make those schools any worse, does it? Just more likely to go bust, maybe? It’ll release some of those “better” teachers and more motivated kids back into the general pool. So we can expect a dramatic upturn in the quality of state education in UK.
The middle classes have not deserted state education. State education has deserted the middle classes, and the middle classes have reacted, putting their wallets where there ideals are.
MMMM – agree – catchment area is a bit of a nonsense locally!
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>>His daughter has just been accepted to Oxford Uni from a supposedly ‘badly run’ school.<< Is she black, with one leg FR? You know what the English are like with their positive discrimination and tokenism. Maybe they just wanted someone from the north in a decent school?
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Interestingly, the UK state education system has “good” and “bad” schools. By that presumably these are either popular among parents or unpopular. Some schools remain single-sex, even in the state sector. There are centres of excellence, too, and some even go in for the elitism of blazers and ties.
I expect that these anachronisms are all in the “good” school categories.
So, how about it – know of any “failing”, state, single-sex school, (borstals aside) anyone – even anecdotally?
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I have spoken to a number of friends who went to the Grammer, and they found it very hard to mix with state school kids who joined in the sixth form – not through snobbery per say, but because their social circles were already so tightly formed. It’s also the case vice versa, people from state schools stuck to the few others they knew.
The State Schools need to be of a better standard and should in my opinion go up to A Level. I never considered A levels an option simply because it was never even brought up as an option until my second to last year in secondary (state) school so it’s quite a shock to the system. You just think ‘well i’m not there now so i’ probably won’t get in – they couldn’t possibly take everyone from all the state schools to do A level and i don’t want to have to make new friends and start over’.
The College of FE was a much much more attractive option.
Have good state schools – like Comps and like the Grammar – that go up to A level.
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Do what the UK did to it’s polytechnics – magic them into Universities one fine day. We could turn our secondary schools into ‘colleges’. Beaucamp College, Grammar College, La Mare de Carteret College…………
…..ok, so it won’t sort out the subsidy no issue but think of all the smile brought to the faces of all the aspiring parents.
Everyone gets a tie and a crest ;)
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