Parking stays free, fuel goes up again
Friday 27th February 2009, 2:29PM GMT.
PAID parking was thrown out yesterday in a vote that split the States down the middle.
It means that the road transport strategy of cheap bus fares will be funded by a 1.2p per litre increase in fuel duty, overturning the decision to introduce paid parking made by previous administrations in 2003 and 2006.
But it was a tight call, with paid parking for long-term spaces in Town rejected by 23 votes to 21 with three deputies absent.
On Wednesday, the States rejected Environment’s original funding proposal – a £26 annual charge to use any disc park in the island.
Deputy Al Brouard laid the amendment for the fuel duty rise, which will lead to Environment getting another £300,000 this year.
‘I’m delighted. Looking at how narrow it was, I can see there was a lot of feeling,’ said Deputy Brouard.
‘But I think it’s the right thing for Guernsey. We don’t want paid parking and there’s an opportunity now to build on the strategy. This is the first piece of it.’
He hoped it would now lead to an improved bus service, especially for schools.
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Can this debate finally be put to bed now please? Whether one agrees with the decision or not I think most people will agree this has taken up far too much of States time.
In fact, on a previous article I suggested a law be passed banning the discussion of paid parking for 20 years. I’m not usually one for more leglislation but on this occasion….
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I am glad that common sense has won and you have not followed us in the UK were we have parking charges that will not help road safty as some peopal would have you belive–remember the only winners are who ever collects the parking feeS!!!!
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What an appalling decision!!
Assuming that 1.2p is put on diesel as well as petrol, my business which operates lorries will have to pay an additional £1200 per year for a facility we cannot use, as we are not allowed to park lorries in North Beach. This is in addition to the extra £15000 we are paying, instead of having road tax.
Where is the real leadership within the States? I am appalled and disgusted.
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Why not forget extra fuel duty and paid parking and just fund the transport strategy by fining all those people you see everyday on the phone while they’re driving? Not many people seem to be fined at the moment, and you don’t need to look far to find one!
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This is pathetic, so the people who park up all day and go to work don’t pay and yet the people who need to drive around a lot to carry out their jobs and never park in town get hit in the pocket again.
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I fail to see how this is a good outcome for a debate that has run for 20 years already. The mandate was that paid parking was to be introduced and that was indeed passed by the previous states (The method and charge was flawed and that is all) Now everyone is paying to subsidise those of us who use the carparks and those who may have opted to use a bus will stick with their cars..Can the mooring fees be dropped altogether too please?…why not? we all paid for the marinas
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Guernsey……Sustainable……now that is a funny one!
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We’ve paid for the parking (lot) so why do we need to pay again for our parking?
23 Deputies worked it out which leaves 21 Deputies who didn’t pass this 7 year old school test question.
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The States threw out getting rid of road tax and increasing petrol prices to make up the revenue short fall for years. It kept coming back until those who wanted it got their way.
Heard the end of paid parking?, don’t bet on it!.
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We’re going to close the school, we’re not closing the school; we’re going to increase boat charges, we’re not going to increase boat charges; we’re going to charge you for parking, we’re not going to charge you for parking;
we’re going to manage the island, we’re not going to manage the island
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Good indirect taxation stinks!
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Again another issue fudged i am sorry to say, as several of the posts have pointed out businesses that rely on transport to deliver their services will be hit in the pocket again.
If the remit on paid parking is to take vehicles off the roads then the only way to ensure this happens is to remove the ability to park in St Peter Port for a 10 hour period. Free of charge or paid, it matters not.
If our leaders simply want to raise more funds then this increase is as good as any other.
I can already hear the outcry from all of the town based workers, I work part time and need to use my car, collect my kids etc etc, Buses are not frequent enough etc etc. Ok hear all of those points therefore we must all assume that the volume of traffic will remain as is and we must stop complaining about it, because our leaders will not take such an unpopular step.
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Another pathetic shambles.
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This is so wrong! I made a decision at the beginning of this year to stop driving to work and use the bus instead. The service is great to the part of the island where I live, but the traffic is still terrible. Now the States decide to increase bus fares to fund the transport strategy – how will this discourage car use? The majority of the States appear totally incapable of making a difficult decision. Sure, paid parking would be very unpopular but make it a punitive cost, and inconvenient to use (ie scratchcards), and people will finally start to think twice about using their cars – surely the main objective.
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The commuters were being asked to support the whole of the road transport strategy. They were singled out and being punished – the premis was petty, simplistic and wrong from the get-go.
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Kerry, you are so right. It’s a total botch up, based on an ill-thought out amendment written on the back of a fag packet (or parking clock) in response to a ridiculously half hearted, ill thought out set of proposals in the first place.
Nobody will gain from this and everyone’s a loser, as several others in this thread have pointed out. One element that hasn’t been touched on yet is that bus users will have to pay more in future and that this defeats the whole point of the so-called public transport strategy.
Our lily livered States totally lost sight of the fact that paid parking is exactly that – not at all a tax (like fuel duty) but a charge for using a public service that has wrongly been free in the past and is wrongly still free because its not the parkers who are paying for it.
As FR so rightly says too, another pathetic shambles. The least they can do is up the parking fines to £50 or even £100 and operate a zero tolerance ‘one-minute-over-and-you’re-booked’ policy but they won’t even have the savvy to do that.
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A good decision by the states at last.
Bear in mind the objective of the orriginal proposal was to fund the transport strategy. It was not specifically to target parkers.
I am a little surprised that its only 1.2pence though.
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It is just a fudge. they realised that there was no point introducing paid parking unless it was at a level which would sting (which is the very point – how is £26 per year going to stop be driving to work) yet lacked the balls to do that. for once I agreed with Gollop and the notion of 50p per hour – that was the one proposal which would actually have achieved the aim, which was to empty the car parks and get people in buses!
what a joke.
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So they’re putting extra duty on fuel to fund the buses. Brilliant ! So those poor downtrodden people who chose to drive to work in town can carry on getting free parking at tmy expense. ( yes I know we have already paid for the car parks out of taxes, so it may seem unfair to pay again to use them, but then we also all pay to run the buses but apparantly it’s alright to charge people again to use them … )
Wait a minute, don’t the buses run on fuel?
Doesn’t that mean it will cost even more to run the buses when the extra duty is added?
And therefore they will need more money than before just to carry on as before, even without improvements ?
I suppose to cover the extra they’ll just need to put up fuel duty even more …….. oh wait that would just make matters worse wouldn’t it …..
Congratulations States on yet another well thought out populist u-turn ….
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What an absolute disgrace increasing petrol and bus fares. Why should people who do not have cars / do not park in the car parks have to pay for the people that do? Why should people who drive but rarely go into town pay for those that work in town or those that constantly shop in town? Is it not about time that banks for example, pay for their workers to park, after all they have enough money to throw lavish balls, Christmas do’s and give their workers bonuses.
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A parking fee will never deter people from parking.
Just remember that our treasury will scrape the barrel to fill the hole caused by their incompetent approach to zero 10 and they will need a lot more than a bit extra on petrol.
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Joan – just to clarify some banks do pay for their employees to park. The finance companies at Admiral Park (among others Kleinwort Benson and Fortis) either have private parking under their building or pay Checkers to use spaces in their underground car park – ensuring all staff have a private space at their expense.
Appreciate I may be a little perdantic and that’s only a few among many but it’s good in a debate to ensure accuracy rather than blanket stereotyping, which often sounds more like an impulsive dig than a reasoned point.
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Will the States now support me if I raise a fuel surcharge to my customers to deliver goods to people, even though my lorries do not use a car park. Or will they give me a rebate becuase I don’t use the car parks?
This debate has proved once again that the States do not understand the word strategy – “a Systematic plan of action”.
Well done Deputy Broaurd and your supporters with such an ill thought out result.
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Once again the car users lobby wins the day.
Forget congestion, forget pollution, forget those who have to use the buses, forget desecration of our harbours and ancient streets just make sure I can use my car as and when I want to at whatever cost to the community.
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I make it 14 for paid parking 4 against and 1 under sided.
This was a difficult decision for our States to make, and they bottled it again.
The last 12 years these and previous, States members have,overspent on badly constructed building that are not fit for purpose.Which will be costly to try to put right, and costly to maintain in the future.
This with the advent of 0-10, a tax that robs the poor to pay the rich and along comes the Credit Crunch. This scenario with a weak, indecisive States, could not have come at a worse time.
We will because of all this incumbency, have to pay more and more tax.
Could the States at least make it as fair as possible IE you park you pay, you use you pay.
As for the buses, you often, at the Airport, see 4 people in the bus, 2 are pensioners, 2 are paying customers. This does not even pay the diesel, paid by the taxpayer, let alone the bus upkeep or the driver.
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Paul your point merely highlights the inequity of free parking in town – why do town employers get parking for their employees and customers laid on at the taxpayers expense, whereas just about everywhere else they have to pay to provide it themselves ?
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Anyone who thought time travel was not possible has just been proven wrong. The States have shown that you can jump back a decade and take your community with you. This medieval thinking that in todays day and age there should be encouragement for individual, energy hungry, space greedy, urbanising transportation and discouragement for those who travel en masse is totally out of date. It would have been more at home in the 1980′s. To have a Government that condones the urbanisation of this tiny island is shameful.
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one point two pence on a litre of diesel quite simply means that i will pay another £300 this year to not park my taxi on a public park (not once) it also means that i pay for the buses to run on that payment , in direct competition with my own business, and pay for the buses through my tax payments as well , is that fair ?? when we are trying to keep fares reasonable for the benefit of the public who use taxis but wont use buses .its strange that one set of public transport providers are owned and run by the very government department that licences taxis and bends over backwards to accomodate buses , theres a bit of a vested interest issue there dont you think one for the monopolies commission , the bus using public have a right to a good service ,which they have, but picture the scene on monday morning when the business community turns up at the airport having suffered the vagaries of guernsey weather , the horrors of expensive air fares only to find that the states have made it untenable for me to turn up and wait for an hour for a fare to town then we wont have to worry about getting to work there wont be any , so well done the states another rash decision by a bunch of failed business people .
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Davee
That £300 equates to 25,000 litres of fuel per year, equivalent to over 5,500 gallons per year, or approximately 105 gallons per week. Do you really use that much? You must be raking in some cash if you’re doing that many miles!!!
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Need a traffic strategy?
Firstly get the monstrous green mobile road blocks off the road.
As carbon dioxide production from cars is linear when related to speed, i.e. a car travelling at 35 mph produces more carbon dioxide than the same car travelling a 40 or 50 or even 60, there is a strong case for increasing speed limits in the many places where this would be safe. Remember that the present speed limit structure is about 50 years old. In those 50 years the advances in the design of tyres, steering, suspension and braking has made the modern car light years ahead when it comes to road holding and ability to stop. Those of you who are old enough will remeber the days when Morley Corner and Passiflora were real black spots. To the driver of a modern car they are merely slight deviations from the straight.
Guernsey does not have a traffic problem, it has a traffic flow problem at certain times of the day, this is common wherever you live in the world. Ours is made worse by the lack of car parking which causes the motorist to drive up and down the seafront in town looking for a space.
Once again the motorist is being made to pay for the incompetence of the States in their decision to involve the taxpayer in operating buses. To make matters worse the motorist who does not use the town parking, except on very rare occasions, is being forced to pay yet more for fuel which is now even more expensive per mile driven that in the UK.
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Minister Peter Sirett stated that.
The rules say we couldn’t seek to put money onto fuel and allocate it to our transport strategy.
I am wondering why this decision has been taken then?
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>Once again the car users lobby wins the day<<
You mean 80% of the adult population? Would you prefer they listened to Gollop who can’t drive, or Roffey who never commuted or Xavier Paul who lives in cloud cuckoo land with his views on the how bicycles will rule the world? Or would it be more sensible to listen to people with normal family lives with children?
I’ll take the right thinking majority any day.
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You obviously don’t read much further than Clarkson or Littlejohn, Jackie. The car industry – from big oil, manufacturers and PR companies – have been milking lazy ignorance for decades. Cars are resource-expensive manpower-intensive status symbols. The days of being a tool for the masses have been replaced by aspirational loucheness. You’ll be saying “let them eat cake” next.
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Can anyone tell me why 1.2p hike on a liter of fuel will make any noticeable difference to private car useage?
Scary isn’t it that the Government of the day thinks it will.
Poor old Al Brouard, been out West too long me thinks.
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to phil , ah yes phil thanks for pointing that out (sums went a bit wrong there) those figures would be for a small fleet of vehicles , which still wont be using public parking, as an aside and talking of using more fuel in order to pay more tax , on saturday night, drivers found the lane by the swan blocked by a big truck rendering the truchot impassable , and some bright spark had found it in their hearts to make the bottom of st julians one way down (not up ) ensuring that the egress from town to the west was made impossible (notwithstanding the college street rip off) which we will get used to in time (a long ,long time)so profound apologies to the people who support taxis and especially the gent who only wanted to go to saumarez street via trinity square .the reason for the closure ?? a crane working on the new building by the ribshack , on sunday morning , surely a passing policeman could have placed the signs a few minutes before work started , as for me i couldnt handle the verbal abuse from all of passengers and went home early thus saving the planet even more fuel , perhaps if i owned a bus company things would have been made a little easier .
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Paid parking at 50p per hour or even £1 per hour won’t force drivers to become bus passengers…it will just force them to either pay up or find clever ways of avoidance by parking illegally…hence more traffic wardens and civil servants to deter, detect and penalise these drivers.
Parking in London has always been scarce and very pricey but it wasn’t until the congestion charge came in to play that London traffic started to thin out.
It’s the price of motoring, not parking, that will sway the commuters in the end.
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I cannot believe that the 50p an hour to park in a disc park was not implemented. What a fantastic idea that was! Having four children, it is the only thing that would give me an incentive to get on a bus! Which is what we want isn’t it? By the time I’ve paid for fuel into Town and back again, plus £1.50 to park for a few hours, it’s cheaper on the bus. I would love to have had at least half of that revenue ploughed back into the bus company so that fares could be ridiculously cheap, or even free! Let’s fund lots of little 12 seaters doing “more country” routes, off the beaten track, let’s put on more buses, let’s fill them up, and let’s have services later in the evening etc. etc. – let’s get everyone on the buses. We don’t want more car parks, we don’t want more cars, we want more car free zones and a quieter life. Let’s make Guernsey special. I think if you went out on the streets and interviewed everyone, you would find that the majority of us Guerns would support this 50p per hour parking. It’s fair, user pays, and the revenue could be used to enhance our bus service. Why on earth did our deputies let us down? We might even find more people get on their bikes if they work in Town – but wouldn’t that be a good thing too? No polution at all! Come on Guerns, let’s keep fighting for 50p an hour. It’s cheap!
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Agree with your sentiments Lynn. After the States’ botch up it’s got to be a case of tackling the problem in a different way. I suggest we start by making the lovely Crown Pier totally, absolutely vehicle free. Anywhere else on the planet, ugly lines of tin boxes wouldn’t be allowed anywhere near this fine, central space that deserves to be so much more than an awful car park.
Second step should be to make up for the loss of short term spaces on the Crown by switching a swathe of the commuter spaces on North Beach (another hideous blot on one of Europe’s loveliest little ports) to 3 hrs for shoppers etc.
The most important thing, though, is not to replace the lost commuter spaces. Parking areas are car generators. They are like bees to flowers. The fewer car parking areas the less car use. Also, the ridiculously low £30 parking fines should be hiked to £50 at least. Parking clocks should be at least £5 each – not a tax but realistic price. And there must be a new zero tolerance approach to people who break the rules. One minute over and you’re done!
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Here here Lyn. Well said. I can’t believe those that seem to infer that Guernsey is a nicer place for all the cars clogging up the roads, and urbanising what could be a beautiful island.
One thing is absolutely for sure…. this policy was not done to help the less well off despite several of the Deputies trying to make out that it was. It was done to appease those that believe driving is a ‘right’ and to hell with the effect it has on the island or to the problems it will bring in the future.
Car driving is going to get expensive, like it or not. We either prepare for that or we don’t. If we don’t prepare, there will be a lot of squealing when people can no longer afford the bills.
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Lyn.
A rather odd post. I presume from the content that you are claiming to be a ‘true green’ and yet you say that you are upset that the 50p per hour charge was not implemented as ” it is the only incentive that would make me get on a bus”
I would have thought that a true green would use the bus at every opportunity without the need for some sort of punitive incentive.
Would you really want to pay 50p to park on the Bridge for two minutes while you popped in to buy a newspaper ?
Rosie.
I’m not sure who you mean by the ‘less well off’.Take a spin around a States Housing Estate any evening ( it doesn’t matter which Estate you choose )and see how many cars are parked up.
Guernsey people,rich or poor are wedded to the car from the age of seventeen. It’s going to take one almighty leap to change that.
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Parking is not free, the taxpayer pays for the maintenance and repair.I also, would like more people to use buses, but we also have to be realistic as well.
The buses have an average of five passengers a trip, that does not pay for the diesel alone. It also is a big pollution in Co 2 emissions as well. It is costing the taxpayer a fortune, when money is in short supply.
This hike of 1.2p per litre, will put all cost of transport and deliveries up as well, but not to subsidised, States owned Island Coachways.
There is also other public transporters, who do not have the luxury of handouts, and have to try to compete with the bus company.
On of these taxis take business people on early morning runs to the Red Eye,( start 5 a.m.)and also from Airport to Finance places,offices restaurants etc.,and back to Airport. Also taking the ilusive Visitor!( shall we have another Mais Oui campaign with States members, being forced to say Oui?)from airport, hotels etc.
Could the bus company do any of this?
Would any of the imported bus drivers have the local knowledge to help these people?
How much more would the motorist pay on fuel, for this service, if run by the States.
Come on Passenger Licensing Authority, Deputies and John Gollop,(I love cheap buses)there are other businesses out there.
Is it not time that you understood that, and be thankful that they are doing the job free for you.
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When vehicles first came into production and for many years after only the ‘rich’ could afford them.
Then the market lowered the prices with mass production, enabling the ‘middle classes’ to buy their own cars and eventually at prices that has enabled virtually anyone to have one.
Now it is claimed there are too many, so stealth taxes keep increasing the cost of motoring in the hope to reduce usuage and hitting the lowest earners harder. I guess it really means that we will be returning to the days when only the rich can drive a car!!
So, why don’t all the lower earners please just dump/scrap your cars and let the richer folks drive in peace!!
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Some really good comments, maybe even better than what was said in the States by both sides !
Paid parking never got through during my 13 years in the States so I am pleased with this decision.
The arguments for paid parking varied from environmental to money raising but none were thought through, logical, sustainable, realistic or practical.
It would have been a travesty of democracy if paid parking had got through because the vast majority of elected candidates had declared that they would not vote for it.
I was therefore surprised at how close the voting was. Interestingly, my friend and former political colleague, John Gollop the day before predicted the final outcome to within one vote.
I think if I had been in the States John may not have put in his parking amendment as he listens to environmentalists who oppose paid parking and knows my record as a long time campaigner for improved bus services.
John does at least use the buses.
I hope that in the future more funding will be found to increase bus services either through increased fuel taxes or general revenue.
The service we have at present is still not good enough for the commuters or for schools.
For people to use the service it has to meet their needs and be as low a price as possible.
I have for many years advocated having increased fuel taxation to pay for bus services and incidently was supported by John Gollop on these efforts. What was then considered over the top and unacceptable has now become the acceptable, and well overdue.
I was Chairman of the old Guernsey Free Bus Committee and the former Campaign for Improved bus services, and in the long term we need fareless bus services for quick user friendly bus journeys.
There is an argument that Alderney is given some proportionate financial assistance from the increased fuel tax so that they can provide a bus service.
As the one responsible for the idea of Residents Parking Permits being brought in, I believe we should be very careful as to how much we charge in future for these. Some Councils in the UK go really over the top.
I also feel that it was wrong to have a strategy of some of the cost of the buses being funded by the fares .We really cannot risk fares increasing and putting at risk all the work which has been put into getting people to use the buses.
Finally, as someone who keeps up to date on what goes on in the UK in respect of traffic, parking and public transport issues,I am delighted that Guernsey has retained its special uniqueness of having Free Parking.
Tony Webber
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I don’t think we have seen the back of the paid parking debate. Some points that weren’t raised so far in this article :
1) BY targeting town parking, you are effectively giving an advantage to out of town businesses. What would the impact be on those businesses in town? Would it mean more out of town shops opening (urban sprawl) ?
2) What about the motor trade ? If you were really successful in deterring car usage then inevitably it has a knock on effect to the people employed in the motor trade. How do you replace their jobs ?
3) If you have a fantastic bus service and everyone uses it, practically no cars used on the roads and very few parking in town, how do you fund the scheme ? – (this is the aim isn’t it?)
4) Private parking spaces, how do you target them ?
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Lets face it, whatever the outcome of this was it was always going to annoy/ inflame somebody.
Lets just get on with it now, the vote is done and dusted.
Never fear I will continue to subsidise all you parkers with my shocking number of parking tickets
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David … just to correct a few innacuracies in your comments …
As far as I know the states doesn’t own Island Coachways. And they have to pay the same level of fuel duty as everyone else, so the increase will affect them as much as anyone else ( and I hate to think how many litres of fuel 30 buses get through in a year .. )
And Taxis are not really competing with buses. As you rightly say f you want to be somewhere before 7 in the morning or after 8/9 at night the bus is not an option – so taxis have the monopoly there. The bus does not pick you up from exactly where you want and take you to wherever you want to go – you have to get on and off along the serviced routes. And the bus runs when it wants to , not when you want it to. If you want to get from one exact spot to another exactly when you want you either have to walk, use your own vehicle, or get a taxi. The bus is not an option. It’s not a level playing field in price ( the buses are subsidised ) but then neither is it in convenience ( a taxi can go wherever and whenever you like ).
And as for foreign drivers … I assume it’s as easy to recruit local drivers ( working long antisocial hours ) as it is to recruit local waitresses, or shop assistants ( working long antisocial hours )…….
And as a side issue, since the states rejected proposals to carge for parking clocks , does anyone know where I can get my FREE parking clock from ?
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Has anyone considered the real cost to the Island’s economy of all those workers parking and endlessly re-parking their cars? 20 minutes lost each time, maybe three times a day. That’s 1/8th productivity down the drain. So that’s 1/8 tax take, too.
I bet that a very large percentage of cars driving around town during the day are merely moving between parking places. The engines stop and start, and are usually cold, so increasing pollution considerably.
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Ray….. I agree. The Guernsey person is wedded to their cars….. you have hit the button there! I guess by ‘less well off’, I am referring to all those people who are complaining about the cost of driving and wondering how they will afford their bills. If they had an alternative, there would be no need for them to complain. Of course, many already do have an alternative, but as you have pointed out, it doesn’t occur to them that they should leave their cars at home, as driving in Guernsey has become thought of as a ‘right’.
I think you also miss the point of Lyn’s post. She does not claim to be, as you put it, a ‘true green’. I suspect she is the same as the rest of us. Aware that she should do her bit for the local and global environment, but looking for the incentives……. and sadly they are so often, not there in Guernsey. Why should she penalise herself when the advantage is so often slanted towards doing the wrong thing?
The States have simply gone for the populist vote. The fact that this policy will not discourage anyone from driving, or provide the necessary funds needed to increase the bus frequency to make it a truly viable service, has just been ignored. It’s an example of ‘short-termism’ and demonstrates an inability to think of the long term effects policies have for us and the Guernsey environment. In the long run, we will all be the poorer for it.
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Typified by a comment I heard the other day. “Only gyppos take the bus.” The spirit of Flouquet is alive and well. Rosie is right. Guernsey is all about short termism and popularism. It’s just that what’s popular is stuck somewhere in the 1950s.
Having sold us the pup of early implementation of zero-ten (where was the popularism then eh?) the States are now going to have to sell us a raft of personal taxation. 1.2p a litre on duel seems rather ridiculous now, seeing as one of the cuts maybe to reduce grants to services like the buses.
Car use is not a right but a lifestyle choice, it needs heavier regulation in line with its social impact. I noticed today that a speeding driver that put someone in a coma got the same material fine as a parking clock amnesiac. I know the sentences are predecided by the rules but honestly…
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I was very disappointed in the outcome of the States meeting. We have got nowhere. I don’t want to pay more for petrol (no one wants to pay more for anything) BUT i do realise it is the way to go if the States are to encourage us to use public transport. However, they then go and raise the cost of public transport too so it is a complete nonsense. Why would i want to use the bus, have to walk a fair distance to and from my house to the bus stop in all weather, wait around for the bus which takes 40 minutes to get me home, not have the convenience of my car to put all my shopping in or be able to stop off at various places on the way home etc etc. There is no incentive whatsoever if the bus is going to cost more or about the same. The car is much more convenient and the buses get stuck in traffic jams too!
The States have gone mad aka the lunatics have taken over the asylum!
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