Ten-million-gallon plan to tackle Mont Cuet hotspot
Monday 9th March 2009, 2:29PM GMT.
ENGINEERS will this week start preparations for another attempt at tackling the Mont Cuet landfill fire.
The plan is to pump water from Vale Pond and the Vale Marais to the ‘Torrey Canyon’ quarry and then into the landfill. It is hoped 10m. gallons of water will cool the hotspot, which was discovered in 2005.
There have been several failed attempts at tackling the underground blaze, including nitrogen injection in 2006.
Senior project manager for the Public Services Department Rob Roussel hoped the latest work would cause the minimum of disruption.
‘Significant planning has gone into the project, including a full risk analysis to identify any potential problems, and we have measures in place to remove or minimise these,’ he said.
‘We also have contingency measures should the need arise.’
About 40 people attended a meeting last week at which the plans were laid out and Public Services minister Bernard Flouquet said it had been a success.
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With qualified engineers involved it perhaps goes without saying that there is a very valid reason why the Vale Pond’s fresh water ( rather than sea water which is close at hand and would be less costly to transport to the landfill ) has to be used to attempt to put out the Mont Cuet landfill fire?
Common sense suggests sea water cannot be used because of it’s salt content which may – or would – forever negatively affect the land? Is my assumption correct? An answer requested please.
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Erm.
Have I missed something?
I’ve always found that the sea is quite wet and there’s quite a lot of it right by the tip……………………………………………
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Sir,
Reading this article boggles my mind as to why must the States spend countless thousands of tax payers money pumping water from Vale Pond, (two kilometres, = 1.24274 miles,) and Vale Marais, (1.5 kilometres = 0.93206 miles,) totalling 3.5 kilometres = 2.1784 miles, to just pump it into the Torrey Canyon Quarry,, then on into Mont Cuet Quarry,just to put out a fire in a rubbish dump, ( I do realise this is a big fire,) when just a few hundred yards away over the beach headland, is an in-exaustable supply of water ready to go at a fraction of the cost, I mean of course, the sea, Why can’t they, (the States) just put hoses into the sea, and pump directly into Mont Cuet, instead of faffing around and trying to look important, or is there something that they aren’t telling us, and are trying to hide the fact.
I ask the States to tell us truthfully, how much is this pumping operation they are proposing going to cost the tax payer?, and have they even thought of pumping direct from the sea?, and if not, why not? And if they have thought of pumping direct from the sea, why have they decided not to do so? What is the true reason for not pumping seawater onto the fire? But Knowing the States of Guernsey, they will not give a true answer, They just like spending the public’s money willy nilly, and blame it on any thing but them selves.
I just hope the States can give the public of Guernsey a genuine reason for spending all that money on some thing that I, personally think can be done at a fraction of the cost by other means
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Turning sea water into steam (in the process of fighting the fire) would produce toxic gases. So fresh water needs to be used instead which avoids the problem.
Was in the press article but not mentioned here
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Pleinmont
I feel you may need to reconsider your response. Fire fighting ships pump sea water to deal with incidents with oil rigs and the like all over the world. Sea water produces a salt content and that’s about it.
Salt can be used to starve a fire of oxygen helping to extinguish it. I can think of no good reason why the states would choose to use fresh water when the sea is so close to hand.
What is more of a worry is the many hazardous materials in the tip. Asbestos is just one of the many. All these boreholes that is being drilled and the water being flooded in will encourage these materials closer to the top and closer to becoming a health and safety issue for tip employees and eventually Islanders.
The bottom line here is the fact that the sites engineers have been negligent in tapping the gases and expending them in a safe manner so that this scenario did not happen in the first place.
I feel Islanders may be well advised to give the surrounding beaches and immediate area a wide birth this summer. The gasses and airborne toxins this process gives off will not be at all healthy for the human biological system.
None of us can rely on our states to tell us the truth any more. They will play down any fears so that it wont lead to any litigation. With the golf club on its doorstep it may be prudent they got it right first time around!
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I think it would be a lot cheaper to install a temporary desalinization plant on the shore.
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The whole issue is complicated by the fact that this is a below ground fire, and that what is burning is partially decomposed matter – some organic and some not. Whatever type of water is used, horrid gases will be emitted as the leachate level rises. However, leachate is noxious and if it rises too much then there will be horrific consequences for the immediate environment.
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Paul – Sea water is used for ship fires because it’s all at sea, fresh water will always be preferential, but getting a hose out to an oil platform is a nightmare.
Sea water shouldn’t be used as it contains sodium and chlorine, which makes… sodium chloride! Ever hear the phrase ‘salting the earth’? It was a scorched earth tactic used years ago as sodium chloride stops anything growing. So, with 10m litres of sea water, of which 3% is sodium chloride, that’s 300kgs of sodium chloride you’ll be dumping at Mont Cuet. There goes the landscaping plans….. Sodium chloride is also really bad news for animals affecting bone, visceral and all muscle function. Best not take your dog for a walk around there either….
Desalination is also a bad idea as the by-products aren’t the best, it’s a really energy consumptive way of creating fresh water. Reverse osmosis would be best, but either process runs at about 50p a litre at best. I’ll let you figure out the cost for that….
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Oops! I’d only just woken up when I typed that and didn’t realise we were talking 10m gallons!!! So, yeah, 1,200kg of salt dumped over Mont Cuet and about £2 a gallon to desalinate sea water.
I think that’s engineers – 1 : armchair pundits – nil?
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Student Bob
Cheers for the chemistry lesson. Sodium Chloride does not stop anything growing at all. I will agree that it does stop some things but it wont stop everything.
There are many hybrid plants around that are able to grow with a high salt level in its living environment. Guernsey is surrounded by sea and already has a high salt content in its soil samples. I am no geologist but this is fact.
300 kilograms of salt at Mont Cuet is absolutely nothing at all to worry about compared to all the other noxious and hazardous materials that have already been dumped there.
As for the comment on dog walking. What’s that all about then? Are you suggesting that it is not advisable for owners to take their pets for a run on the beach then. Don’t allow then to have a paddle or else there will be complications. Wrong again. Dogs need salt in their diets just like us humans do for the record.
Just to blow your argument completely out of the water. If salt was such an issue and harmful then the British Government would not be allowed to use it when the winter sets in and the roads freeze over.
We don’t tend to use it because a high proportion of our roads fall within the water catchment areas. As for the 50 pence per litre argument. Where have you got these figures from. Highland Spring or maybe our CM?
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Just a thought, if the salt content in the soil was such a big issue, might I suggest that over the years rainfall would wash the salt through the soil, thereby allowing plants to cultivate.
In any case, I would assume that even now the area in question is being constantly contaminated with sea spray whenever there is a gale blowing from the North or West.
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>>Highland Spring or maybe our CM?<< LMAO!
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Student Bob
Keep up the studies mate. You most certainly are not reading maths that’s for sure. Recheck your second set of figures. If you are still stumped grab your calculator or ask a lecturer!
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The tip is right next to the sea – sea is wet… water puts out fires… Salt washes away with rain… Guernsey is very good at rain….
Why waste (valueable) tax payers money pumping water from the Vale Pond?!
Dont come the whole dangerous for the environment issue with me eitehr cos as far as I know it, the Vale Pond is like a mini nature reserve – what impact will this have on that?!
So things wont grow at Mont Cuet for a few years – hello… have you been there lately – nothing grows on it anyway & hasnt for years cos its full of rubbish!! (like the people that made the decision to waste our money on this idea!!)
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Paul – Care to back any of your statements up? My costing of 50p a litre is based on the 2006 United Nations World Water Development Report.
Aa for my maths, I’m fairly sure there are about 4 litres to a gallon? Although, I’m too young for this imperial malarkey.
Salt is all about concentrations. Sea spray salt content exposure is minimal, 1,200kgs is rather a lot. Perhaps you could try eating a kilo of salt and then get back to us on how you feel???
I thought the UK government, and most other governments gritted their roads and not necessarily, due to some sort of environmental reason, exclusively with salt?
I do apologise though, I didn’t realise we had an in-forum chemistry teacher, so I’ll bow to your superior knowledge…… if you can back it up…..
S. Bob. Dip (Nat Sci)
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Completely agree with W H Bonney. If there is no water in vale pond, it wont be a pond will it! Therefore all the wildlife & plants will be lost. I no they wont completely drain the pond, but it will still have a huge impact on the wildlife.
Also if the fire is in the tip, which is full of rubbish, not plants etc, what difference will it make having salt in there? Yes surrounding soil will get slightly contaminated, but nothing serious.
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>>S. Bob. Dip (Nat Sci)<< Watching Blue Planet as part of your dissertation doesn’t count. :)
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Jackie – I’m actually training in health care, so it’s usually a full day of watching repeats of Scrubs and Grays Anatomy on E4.
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S. Bob. Dip (Nat Sci)?
This is a big claim. Please spare me and more importantly yourself the embarrassment. Your evaluations don’t even measure up to a Dippy drunken pub toilet standard. The more you evaluate the more unrealistic and wide of the mark you present yourself.
Your calculations are well and truly out. Your percentages are wrong. Your costings would be the envy of every water supplier the world over. They would leave some wealthier than beyond anybodies expectations.
We are in a credit crunch. If your statistics were to be believed the world over would meltdown.
I am not going to do your research for you. Type 3rd world water purification cost per litre into Google and you will get a better understanding.
Also bare in mind that these costings will be to convert dirty contaminated water into safe clean drinkable water. Fit for human consumption. Not water fit for a rubbish tip which I will still state sea water is perfectly adequate in the grand scheme of things.
For the record 1 imperial gallon = 4.54609188 litres. You use the internet and all these facts and figures are readily available.
As a bit of friendly advice to you I would suggest that you spend less time in the student union and blog sites and concentrate more so on your studies.
No need to bow to my superior knowledge. Just concentrate more so on presenting your facts more realistically.
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It may be a silly question But why not just let it burn and incease the tips capacity ?.
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Melc – that is too simple…
Besides if the States allowed this to happen they would need to find new ways to waste the money they continue to screw out of Joe Public!!!
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So that’s a no then Paul?
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>>It may be a silly question But why not just let it burn and incease the tips capacity ?.<<
Godo point. Isn’t slow burn heat treatment for free?
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Let it burn and no need to build that incinerator!
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Do we relaly want to destroy the Vale Pond and kill off all the surrounding wildlife in order to put out an underground fire at a rubbish tip?
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Well if they drain the Vale Pond, then we could fill that in as well, extending our tip for another 3 years. It’s win-win!
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Student Bob Dip (Nat Sci)
Its a yes actually.
Thee content of salt to sea water is 3.5% or 35 parts per 1000 if you wish to be as accurate as possible.
3.5% of 10,000000 I think you will find is 350,000 gallons. This is not kilograms. A kilo is equal to a litre of water.
So 350,000 x 4.54609188 = 1591132.16 kilograms to be precise.
This, as I’m sure you will agree, is some way off of your calculations, 300 rising to 1200 kilos.
Once the tip is at capacity a membrane will cover the area and fresh non contaminated top soil will be placed over the top. Landscaping will then proceed after this process.
Further as for your costings of £2 per gallon. What are students drinking nowadays petrol?
It costs mere pennies to produce drinkable water for humans from even the equivalent of toilet waste.
There are many different options for the end user. Some are excellent and tested, trusted and well respected. Some are not quite as good. Some cost pennies per litre while others cost a fraction of a penny.
So again this completely contradicts your voice of authority on this particular topic.
You make many claims ranging from a Vet to an accountant then onto a geologist and a voice of reason for water purification processes for the general public.
A friendly bit of advice to you. It is clear that you are relatively new into your studies in health care. When you are writing your dissertation make sure all your facts are 100% fact cos if you spout things off the top of your head, like you have done above, then you wont fare too well?
Your lecturers will pick up on everything false a lot quicker than a layman ever will.
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Thanks for the maths lesson Paul.
Can I strongly recommend that you contact the PSD also? The consultants and so-called experts they have employed to provide this solution are obviously also missing the benefits of your 30 sec Google search and trawl through Wikipedia. Perhaps you could also call the eastern seaboard of Australia, which I understand is suffering another severe drought?
I never claimed to be a vet!? Well, unless you count the “They shoot horses” comment I made a few days ago?? I did complete ICSA whilst working in finance and subsequently completed a Diploma in Natural Sciences which got me a place on the health care course I’m currently on. I accept that the diploma was a few years ago, and the field of oceanography may have moved on a bit since then.
I will concede that my maths was rubbish.
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Student Bob
What makes you think I needed to bother with a 30 second Google search or a trawl through Wikipedia?
I worked for many years in the hazardous substances trade. On occasions I also had the need to deal with Mont Cuet for disposal purposes. I do know, better than some, what has been disposed into the tip.
My advice to you is that it is far better to reference other media before placing what one wants to be seen as fact into writing.
The reference to the Vet was your voice of reasoning to dog walkers and salt. You made the comment not me. I merely challenged it due to the fact that it was an off the top of ones head piece of writing. Also due to the fact that it was ludicrous and completely fabricated.
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Paul,
I wished you had offered your services to PSD a long time ago, because we have paid a fortune to consultants in the meantime,and this is their third attempt at putting out the fire. Hopefully this time all will be rectified, I must say I went to the meeting at the Penisular Hotel a week or so ago and it was explained to the public very well and quite interesting at that.
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