eBorders will ruin boating
Tuesday 17th March 2009, 2:30PM GMT.
INTRODUCING the wide-ranging eBorders security system would ruin local boaters’ pastime, says the commodore of the Guernsey Yacht Club.
Gordon Wilson said members were angry about the electronic control system the Home Department has proposed for Guernsey.
‘Every single member I speak to says we should make representation and say it is not a system for the Channel Islands,’ he said.
‘I don’t think it has been properly thought through and yachtsmen have not been given fair consideration.
‘Bin the project – the cost will be ridiculous and it will cause so much anxiety. It’s crazy.’
The main problem would be its inflexibility, he said. Leisure boaters and trawlermen would have to submit details online every time they travelled or face a £5,000 fine.
And submissions would usually be required 24 hours in advance.
‘That’s absolutely ridiculous,’ he said. ‘Cruisers probably have a rough idea of where they are going, a route plan ideally.
‘But the waters around these islands are pretty challenging.’
The sea state could force route changes and he anticipated boaters breaking the law because of the nature of the pastime.
‘Many boats here rely on sail. It can say it will blow a Force 4 but if it only blows a Force 2, your plans change. The object of the exercise is to cruise, in comfort and safety – part of the fun is the freedom.’
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Am I the only person that does not want England to have controle over us any more, You cut the head off and we will keep going. We have no need for Gordon Brown to play a part in the life and structore of Guernsey. When has and English minister took note of us untill they think they can get money from us. There is no need to be part of the British Isles become Guernsey and what each and every person on this island stands for.
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Is the same system to be installed in the UK?
If so, the complications spoken on here will no doubt affect UK boating people too.
Again, if that is the case, has the GYC been in touch with UK boating organisations to discuss the implications and consider making a combined representation to the UK Government? The louder the voice, the more likely to be heard – especially when UK voters are included.
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I would not rely of any voice being heard, he (Gordon) is as deaf as anything. If it suits you will wear it! Sadly, jolly frustrating this current Government. A bunch of cloth ears.
Next they will be planning 20,000 homes in Guernsey as part of the South East development programme, ROFLMAO
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Its time to get out they have turned the UK into a violent lawless hell hole- I for one want no part of it.
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Have sailed for 30 yrs. What a mess, lot of people like me are seriously thinking of giving up. The last “freedom” seems on it’s way out. Even if GSY does’t sign up, we will face problems trying to get back from a weekend in JSY or Carteret? Combine this with the expected hike in mooring fees, having to report fish caught, etc.
I can see the markets going to be flooded with unsold boats (already is?)
Stop the world .. I wanna get off, it’s gone crazy!
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I was under the impression that whilst this idiotic scheme was being introduced in the uk, uk boaters would have to complete e-borders forms when coming to ci as we were not taking part – so have the states now volunteered to join this scheme without it being required?
If details of all journeys outside of local waters are to be submitted, then presumably an army of civil servants will be employed to check every small boat coming into the harbour in order to enforce the rule (i doubt that anybody with criminal intent would have completed an e-borders form, so determining those who have not will presumably be the way of identifying potential enemies of the state).
Unless i’m not familiar enough with how this will work, it appears to me to a particularly ill thought out, cumbersome denial of the general population’s freedom.
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Here’s a thought,Just say no. Enough is enough. If every private boater, sailor and fisherman simply refuse to comply what are they going to do. And as for our weak politicians maybe, just maybe one day they will stand up for their electorate and not blindly follow every stupid U. K . directive. I hate it when something annoys me so much that I have a child like reaction but I won’t do it, I won’t do it, I won’t do it!
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The current system is a joke, we need to say NO to UK
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I no longer have a boat, but if I did this new (LAW) wound not stop me casting off as and when I would want to as I/we all know how changeable the weather can be.
Besides it is yet another infringement on our liberties on the people, Oh and just one moment didn’t our fore-farthers go to war and spill there blood so WE might have this freedom from our oppressor……
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Leave Guernsey along ENGLAND. The Island is a beatiful place but only because the mainland don’t poke their noses in or control the Island.
Try sorting your own mess out UK
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I live in the Isle of Man and we are slowly waking up to the problem too.
E-Borders requires all the data from your passport and all the data you give to the airline or ferry company to be transmitted to the Home Office before you travel. They then ‘risk assess’ your journey and issue a clearance to the airline or ferry. Probably the first you will know about this is when they swipe your passport at the gate. If they decide to block your journey you won’t be let through and will be taken aside for questioning.
All the data you send to the Home Office is kept for ten years. This means they can establish a travel record and see how you behave. Also the data goes on to Her Majesties Customs and Immigration (HMRC) so they can monitor your tax situation. In the context of the Crown Dependencies they are primarliy interested in monitoring the 90 day rule. That’s why they want data on small boats.
Clause 46 of the Borders, Immigration and Citizenship Bill presently going through the House of Lords abolishes the Common Travel Area. Lord West of Spithead met the Crown Dependencies last Monday in London to push for the Clause.
All this is an infringement of Human RIghts. You have a right to a private life.
Make no mistake – E-Borders is going to change things for the Crown Dependencies and that’s the intention.
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Our Home Department seems to be running out of control because, although they are in the early stages of working out what to do about this e-Borders thing, they get some fascist employee of Customs to prattle on about it on Radio G. Then, too late, they get Francis Quin to try to calm every one down.
This is all beyond belief: Deputy Mahy, who heads the Home Dept. has a son in the boating business with excellent contacts. Does he not speak to his son?
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Yesterday i went somewhere and didn’t tell anybody!
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Oh. boy, here we go again. I live on Alderney, our sailing is almost always done to France, it’s a nice day lets pop over for lunch. Ille du Normon should be just that. Problem is Guernsey politicians will follow like sheep as usual.
Martin ex Commodor ASC
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some one needs to stand up for us not the push over polotitions we have on the island. I think we need to vote someone in that can stand up where we need them. Time for change close the borders to Gordon Brown and his bent over laws.
Do we really think England would try and take us back by force or by what ever brains Gordon has.
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Every single person who has written in on this subject is passioantely against the idea.
It seems only one person in the whole of Guernsey thinks we need to spy on people in this way and that is Deputy Maindonald.
I bet the States go ahead with it anyway.
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Daily life in britain is now festooned with excessive rules and bureaucracy, implemented by under employed empire builders justifying their existence and department budget. I believe that it is every person’s right to have the freedom to enjoy the natural world – if the freedom to go to sea is curtailed, it’s time to move to somewhere more sensible…i cannot entertain the idea that every person has to operate within such personally restrictive rules, forced upon us by increasing ranks of dull minded, sour faced officials who delight in their little bit of power. You won’t see me filling out any forms, or paying any fines either.
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People in positions of ‘alleged’ respect such as Commodores, or ex Commodores should refrain from making judgements or public statements on subjects they clearly know little about – it only serves to inflame public opinion and cause public unrest and disquiet when, clearly, these matters are being discussed at conception stage.
In any case, I do not see how this is any different to having to fill in a paper declaration, as every person who uses and boat and travels to and from France or overseas knows.
I think most of you really do have a large chip on your small shoulders – when you travel by aircraft to Tenerife, Rome or elsewhere what happens now, and has happened for years???? I’ll just remind you; you book on-line, or with an agent who books on line, and this is logged on an e-based service.
You are required to provide passport and other biometric data for such journeys as it is the law internationally.
If someone travels from say, Latvia to Southampton then where is the record of such a journey if the get on a sloop in France, go via Guernsey, then the IOW then to Portsmouth??
I fail to see how it can be a breach of human rights as it does not impact anyone right to privacy, plus there are already Acts of parliament which protect peoples HR’s.
CI plus IOM have poor systems in place and are well behind international standards, this means they are increasing the risk of allowing terrorist, money launderers, criminals on the run, and even Feral, to come and go without a system that can proactively combat organised crime – this is targeted at criminals, not the public who want a day trip to France for a beer and some pomme de frites.
It is pure sensationalism to suggest people will not be allowed if they don’t book over 24 hours in advance – how practical is that for people in their little boats; I’m not going to comment on the proposal as I haven’t seen how it applies to CI specifically, making an assumption based on what the UK have is pointless at this stage.
Perhaps Martin and Gordon are concerned about the 1/2 tonne of Port they bring back on their trips (everyone knows that those sea types have Port and Rum for breakfast)being discovered?
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Darren,
It’s the Border Agency that says they want your data 24 to 48 hours in advance of travel. It’s also the Border Agency who will issue a ‘clearance’ to travel to the airline or ferry. It’s effectively an exit visa to visit Southampton.
The House of Lords takes the view that e-Borders is in contravention of Human Rights.
The UK Information Commissioner reports that:
• The proposal does not justify a pressing need for the collection of data other
than Advanced Passenger Information data (which is basically the information
on the machine readable zone on a passport).
• The amount of personal data to be transferred by air carriers is excessive.
• The filtering of sensitive data should be done by the data controller.
• The ‘push’ method should apply to all air carriers.
• The data retention period is disproportionate.
• The data protection regime is completely unsatisfactory: the rights of the data
subjects and the obligations of the controllers are not specified anywhere
within the Framework Decision.
• The great deal of discretion left to Member States might result in varying
interpretations of the Framework Decision.
• The data protection regime of onward transfers to third countries is unclear.
The UK Government is being unconstitutional. They are not allowed to treat the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man as international destinations like Ireland.
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Charlie
You make a good argument – no quibbles about your points which are obviously well researched.
The UK Information Commissioner clearly echoes my views in that it would be dispraportionate to expect people who reside in the UK to issue 48 hours notice of travel.
The only caveat I would suggest might be worth them considering to make it more viable is that the data be given over even if it is within 24 hours to they are able to retrospectively check a movement – that way if they still wish to view the history of movement it is feasible. With this is mind it would probably be fair to stipulate that any non UK residents provide 24 hours notice minimum (as they are likely to not have the Bio data to which you refer in the Machine Readable Zone).
Good to finally have some intellectual discussion on here for once. Cheers Charlie.
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This idea is farsicle, typical idiotic ideas from our government. The worst government we have ever had. With the quick changing weather and wave conditions around even Guernsey let alone the rest of the islands, you cannot say someone has to give their journey intentions out 24 hours in advance and hope they come back and say yes to you.
We have to keep our boat in one of the bays in the summer because we have no harbour mooring yet and when the weather gets above force 5 I have to move it into the harbour for shelter sometimes at a few hours notice or it will drag it’s mooring and be on the rocks.
I certainly am not going to let our boat which we have spent a lot of money on get ruined. Then what would the insurance say when I tell them “oh I could not move it to shelter because some idiot from this scheme had not got back to me to allow me to move it”.
If this ridiculous idea comes in I certainly am not going to bother doing it. If they tried to fine me £5000 I would have to claim benifits from the states to be able to live.
Where will the government find the money to employ the extra staff to assess your trip out?
Will all the countries of the world have to do this?
I could see it ending up like the NHS and there being a massive waiting list, they won’t get back to you for 6 months for a trip you wanted to do tomarrow. What will be next? they will want you to tell them every car, bike or bus journey you are doing the next day!!!
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Darren, i do agree that we are all getting hot under the collar without knowing the full details of this scheme, and that all we have to go on is what has been reported to date – and media do like to sensationalise. However i believe that the strength of opinion being aired is due to the perceived personal restrictions that would appear to be being forced on us by the uk, and frustration at the apparent acquiescence of our elected representatives with over zealous uk rule makers. We all stand to be corrected if e-borders turns out not be an onerous infringement of liberties (or we do not adopt it). I appreciate the guernsey lifestyle, and consider that much of what contributes to this lifestyle is what sets us apart from the uk. I suspect that you’re not a guernseyman and would be happy to see the islands follow the same downhill path that the uk has taken in many aspects over recent years?
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When l go fishing, from Saints Harbour, do l tell the Home Department or the mackerel first.
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David
You will need to ensure that the mackeral is local. Last thing we want is some radicalised islamic pelagic sneaking up Saints hill in your bucket.
You need to take far more responsibility for your actions and consider the effect your hobby might have on the wider community.
I am outraged – again.
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ASBOs/Dispersal Orders/Removal of Right to Silence/Internment/Criminalisation of the Right to Protest/Camera Surveillance/Biometric ID cards/Forced Identification when not even driving a vehicle these are some of the rules they have forced on the UK Citizens.
Just say NO!
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Well as a boat owner I was going to give them a notice of my intention to travel everyday, just incase I wanted to go out. At least then im covered and if I dont travel because the wind comes up or I change my mind they have done the work for nothing. I should imagine they wont mind doing this as the States tend to get paid for doing very little now.
Maybe they will decide all boats need to be fitted with AIS so they can track exactly where we are at any given time?
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It seems to me that the Press are giving only a fraction of the story for us to react to (just for a change).
I do not know the full extent of the proposed e-borders system but my thoughts are that it will only affect the small number of local boaters that actually use their craft to travel to another island, the UK or France.
Most (like me) just take their boats out for the day and return to base. Surely this is not going to warrant having to register some kind of travel plan each time.
In the summer, the Home Dept would have 500 requests to go to Shell Beach each weekend!!
To France, the UK mainland and elsewhere I can understand the proposal to a certain extent, as much from a safety perspective as anything else. Locally, this would be daft.
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I seem to remember an article in the GEP a week or so ago saying this e-borders ‘thing’ was going to cost the States (ie us taxpayers) somewhere around £400,000. This on top of our £175m black hole. This is money we have not got for something we do not want. Come on States of Guernsey, have some backbone and stand up to the bullies of Westminster and Brussels.
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What a farce. £5,000 fine for not submitting your travel details? You ARE joking?
This isn’t ‘e’ anything. It’s oppressive tripe from Britain, now the most spied on nation in the world, Totalitarian states included. This is the Big Brother trend line doomed to decline and fail in any self-respecting country calling itself a democracy.
Guernsey, tell Blighty and the Queen, to mind their own business
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Am I going to be asked to complete the e-borders form when I want to take my canoe to Herm?…Where did i put my pen, oh yes, right next to the handbrake!
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Darren – I have no chip on my shoulder, but the government will probably want to install one, to keep a track of my movements.
Mind, it would be a second-class Guernsey chip, with limited EC rights.
The best time to sink these proposals IS at the proposal stage. Once the detail has been worked up, they are practically unstoppable.
Mr Prow, Sam Maindonald et al know that full well.
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The Royal Yachting Association view the e-Borders proposals with some concern and have set their legal team on the case:-
http://www.rya.org.uk/AboutRYA/lobbyact/Pages/e-Borders.aspx
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>>People in positions of ‘alleged’ respect such as Commodores<<
I’ve always found that strange people carrying their service titles through to their twilight years.
From now on you can call me “Ho Jackie”. I did a spell in service.
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I watched the Govt select committee discuss the boating issue a coupe of weeks ago. Their concern was a terrorist attack (yes, that tired old ruse). One Labour MP wanted every leisure craft (all 1 million of them) inserted with tracking and ID chips.
The Harbourmasters Chief rather cheerily pointed out fitting them would be open to abuse of pirates ‘defitting them and refitting them” onto other craft. The possible abuses of such a system outweighed any benefit and of course you can always expect the rogues to run the system to the letter to beat it.
At some point we need a vote to decide if we the people support a system that monitors each other or we treat people, each other, with respect and privacy they deserve and the benefit of the doubt (99.99% of us are law abiding 99.99% of the time). Like the onerous mindnumbing checks at airport do we want to screen 100% of the people 100% of the time or as in the old days hook out the odd 1% for a check over?
The latter system works far better to my mind rather than treating everyone like a criminal as we do now. Is it our fault the State treats everyone as a potential threat because it’s too ignorant to better? Far better we are all treated as innocent unless the State suspects something otherwise.
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