‘Housing should look after locals’
Monday 30th March 2009, 1:00PM BST.
THE Housing Department appears to have lost control of population size, according to one deputy.
David De Lisle (pictured) said he was shocked by figures released last week and said Housing needed to take responsibility and the reins for its current ‘throwaway’ licence policy.
‘The department must cut back on short-term licences to give our own people the chance of employment in these difficult times,’ he said.
Housing minister Dave Jones said the published figures were nearly a year old and pre-dated the downturn in the global economy.
The increase in the number of people living under licence was reflective of the island’s economic growth up to last Easter.
People employed under licence in the finance and general industry rose by 97 and 35 respectively over the period and those on short-term licences by 501.
Deputy De Lisle said the 551 increase in the total population to March last year was the type of figure one would expect in five years, not a year.
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Ah but that would be racist wouldnt it lol!
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No, not racist. It has been confirmed by the European Court of Human Rights that Guernsey is permitted to control the influx of non-locals in order to protect the local community. The question is whether the right balance is being drawn between looking after locals and enabling people of the required skill and experience to come here to drive the economy. From this article it looks like the main “issue” is with short term licences and so it is not a question of long-term population increase. Also, it looks as though the figures being complained about are out of date. I would hope that Housing are taking a stricter line now given that unemployment of locals is on the rise.
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Mr De Lisle,
Needs to get all the facts before he stands on his soap box again.
My partner is not local but she has been in Guernsey for some 18 years. Local by anyone’s standard but not here.
Why, because her circumstances have changed from when she first arrived and we are not married.
She pays her tax, her social security and quite frankly is more of an asset to the island than those considered local-local!
There is clear discrimination between married and non-married couples and when ever someone’s circumstances change their sentence…sorry history go back to zero.
So I would like to know of the number of licenses mentioned by Mr De Lisle how many are truly short term and how many would be considered local in the Court of Human Rights.
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…..and Mr De Lisle….what did Darwin discover about mixing up the genes!
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So Dave Jones is now saying that the Island needs 501 skilled employees on short term licences. I don’t think so.
I want to see public transparency on all this.
And can Dave Jones please tell us exactly how much it has cost the States in legal fees over recent years for Housing to hound teachers, nurses and other skilled professionals off the island after 6,7 or more years in the island, and then just allow hundreds of new people into the island the next day?
It is an abuse of the Housing Law and someone must be made accountable for it.
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I heard an interesting comment made by Hadley on the radio yesterday stating that recent statistics demonstrate that people on 5 year licenses were more likely to stay (somehow) than those on 15 year licenses.
If this is true then we could save business and the states so much money by decreasing the amount of 5 year licenses issued in key services (for example teaching and health) in favour of 15 year licenses. After all- people reach their most productive in the workplace only after 4/5 years in the one job and these are the best people to train others up.
In this economic environment it makes sense to cut unnecessary costs where we can. If cuts could be made then business would be able to create more jobs and trainee positions which in turn would actually decrease the level of unemployment.
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housing? and housing minister,
surely it’s obvious as has been all these years.
THE DEVIL TAKES CARE OF HIS OWN.
If you wish for fair play then get only Guernsey people to control what is essentially a Guernsey affair.
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First of all we haven’t hounded anyone, they all knew the terms of their licences BEFORE they came. No different to a visa or permit system that operates in most other places across the globe.
The short term licence holders will leave and will not become permanent residents, secondly over 90% of the islands population is not controlled by anyone, they are free to come and go as they please to marry to form other relationships, do as they please. And it is important to know that these are 2007 -2008 figures when the island had little or no unemployment whatsoever, the landscape has changed since then and the number of short term licences has already been reduced significantly. If you want teachers, mental health staff, radiologists, specialist theatre staff, experienced scanner operators and technicians then you are going to have to bring them in as putting an ad in the press will not produce these highly skilled staff from the local job centre.
Private nursing homes also need staff and from our experience it is not a job favoured by local people, so if you want to cut back on licences then be prepared to go without these services that’s the stark choice we at housing have to make everyday. As for the abuse of the Housing control law, I fail to see how keeping our economy and our public services afloat is an abuse, and by the way these decisions are made by a board of states members not just the Minister.
Dave Jones
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I agree with most of the comment from Dave Jones.
The highly skilled staff which he speaks of is of very limited supply in the island so why not alleviate some pressure on these services and save them some money by issuing these people with 10 or 15 year licenses in the first place. The money saved could go towards states projects like building new schools for example, or training new entry level staff. Many people are losing their jobs and becoming unemployed in this global environment but this does not apply to the health services. In fact, for every downturn in the economy there is a proportional upturn in the demand for health services, it is fair to say that any registered nursing positions or other highly skilled position in health will become increasingly difficult to fill so issuing longer licenses to coax staff over would be a good idea, otherwise we may see some major shortages in the near future.
I cannot see any justification for issuing licenses to fill lower skilled jobs. I agree that jobs such as nursing home staff or waiting etc are not “favoured” by local people but isnt that a failure of the current unemployment pension scheme? shouldnt the pension be withdrawn if a person refuses to accept and work in a job that they are capable of doing? This is not an area that Housing should be expected to be responsible for.
Overall, we need the license system but a few little changes could lead to a big difference and make it easier for everyone.
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The hard facts are that a huge number of jobs carried out by immigrant workers are jobs that locals are simply not willing to do. I’m talking waiting in restaurants, kitchen porters, shop assistants, chambermaids, flower pickers and packers, nursing home workers, building site labourers etc. We could not survive without immigrant labour. How many locals would to do those jobs even if we had 1,000 unemployed ? Some would be willing, others would do it begrudgingly, but do you think the employers would want to employ reluctant workers only taking that job because there is nothing cushier or better paid out there? Of course not, they want keen, committed, hard-working people who actually want the job.
My sole gripe with housing law is that we don’t want to accept that non-economic occupations just as secondary school teaching, nursing etc should be exempt from the 5-year rule and should be granted 15-year licences. There is a strong moral, financial and strategic case for differential treatment. So what if some stay for ever. That’s a small and acceptable price to pay.
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Mr Jones,
You are a contradiction.
Either you do or don’t listen / take notice of ‘your’ public.
Make your mind up, you may appear to some as wishy-washy.
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Dave
What do you think about Eric’s comment?
To be honest I’d always thought you were a Guernseyman, bearing in mind how you bang on about us being unduly influenced by the UK/Europe etc, however it now transpires that you’re not.
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Eric…
Is’t Dave Jones English.. I’m sure he is..
Yes Eric. I think you correct in your statement saying “the devil does look after his own”..
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Deputy Jones
You make a sweeping statement that is quite incorrect.
Firstly – many people who are recruited into five year licence roles are told verbally ‘with the kind of role you are in, there is a good chance of a licence extension, or maybe a 15 year licence at the end’. This happened time and time again in early 2000′s to a number of people I know, only for them to be given the elbow when it suited.
The ones who seem to be kept on for 15 year terms are those who ‘gel’ with the senior memebers of their areas (i.e. social interaction outside of work, or have ‘pleased’ ministers in some way).
I agree that short term licences are required for short term roles, however there is no sense in some of the decisions that are taken. For example, Dave Clarke, ex Treasurer – given a 15 year licence – he was only an accountant, and they are ten-a-penny. What does Mr Clarke do the month after he gains permanent residency status? Tell you what he does – he resigns from the States – no loyalty, but who cares as he and Deputy Trott and yourself are all in the ‘club’.
The short sightedness of the States is shown when couples come to the Island, both well qualified and one is on a 5 year licence and they cannot be replaced at the end of term by someone local – the other partner has earned 5 years worth of expertise on the island within a specialised role in the civil service, and what happens to the 10 years of combined expertise?? They are let go and not replaced and the States make-do.
Too much short termism and not enough long term vision.
Finally Deputy Jones, your use of Grammar is inflammatory when you state ‘they all knew’ which suggests ‘those outsiders’. You have no tact; maybe that is grounds for promotion to chief minister?
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A couple of questions…
(1) 132 on licence and 501 on short term licence…what is the difference between a “licence” and a “short term” licence?
(2) 633 incoming and only a population increase of 551…do we know if those 82 that left were on expired licences or locals emigrating away from Guernsey?
It’s difficult to see how we can keep expecting gold plated services without accepting that a workforce is required to deliver these on our behalf. As I’ve said before this will only get worse as the working population shrinks but has to serve a larger non-working population. It won’t be too long before Guernsey won’t be able to attract labour on short licences because the process will be onerous, taxation will be too high in order to fund the social requirements of an aged population and living conditions will be too low.
Economic migrants can only be exploited whilst Guernsey has a tax advantage and a better standard of living over the migrants home countries but if immigrants had a chance to settle and “invest” in Guernsey it might make the taxation demands and poor short term living standards more palatable in future. It would also bring back the feeling of “community” that has been lost recently as such a large proportion of the population is now under valued and transient.
I pity housing…whatever they do and how matter how they bend to popular pressure they really have no chance of getting it right as far as the locals are concerned. If they close the borders they deprive many Guerns of welfare, employment and ultimately prosperity. If they manage the flow in order to keep services and employment opportunities going they stand accused of selling the islands heritage…tough call.
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I must say I agree with Deputy Jones in pretty much every respect here.
Skilled specialist staff in all sorts of areas are hard to get hold of, and when there’s no training locally it’s inevitable that we will have to draw people in from outside Guernsey.
This is a permanent problem, not a temporary one that will change in a few years – we haven’t been able to get enough local teachers, social workers, nurses, doctors, and others for a very long time, and there is no reason to believe we will in the future – especially for very specialized groups of senior staff (anyone up for the recently advertised clinical neuropsychology post?).
So there are only two realistic solutions: 1) employ these staff on short term licenses, and pay the enormous advertising, recruiting, relocation, and rent allowance expenses every time one comes and goes (and allow patients or schoolchildren to suffer because of staff changeover); or 2) employ these staff on a long term basis, which means they might choose to stay living in working in Guernsey for years to come.
Either way, this doesn’t alter the overall population – just the rate of turnover.
Who would you rather have living in our community: people who have chosen to stay and make a long-term commitment to Guernsey, or people who have come to make a bit of money and then just move on?
Short term licenses should in my view be reserved for the kinds of jobs that pop up in the local economy due to economic growth and which may vanish again soon after, and where no one local can do the job at the moment. This kind of system gives a great competitive advantage to Guernsey, as we can expand and shrink the economy to suit circumstances.
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Totally agree with David 11.08pm
Wouldn’t it be a boon to the island if we kept our teachers and other ‘non-economic’ vocational employees as permamnent residents. After all they are here to do a vital job, one which improves with length of service, both from an individual ‘growing’ into a role and from a departmental/organisational continuity angle?
We welcome the non-local lawyers fast enough, knowing that all they have to do is study a bit in France and they become advocates with a guaranteed licence. Even though many don’t do the required public work the title entails.
We need dedicated public servants, we need them to be secure to maximise motivation for the good of Guernsey.
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First of all Eric ,yes I was born in the UK, I came to Guernsey in the late 60’s I have been married to a Guernsey girl for 31 years, her family of course goes back over a thousand years, both our children were born here they both live and work on the island and my Grandchildren will be starting school soon, if thats OK?
The next point I would like to make is that no employer whether in the public sector or private business has the right to tell people on a five year licence that it may be extended or renewed, because it is highly likely that it won’t and I have often heard this anecdotal evidence, however the reality is somewhat different. I also feel it is perfectly legitimate to point out that those who come to Guernsey under licence, know the terms of that licence, before they accept the post it is made plain that they should have no expectation whatsoever that the licence will be renewed or extended beyond the period applied for. That is being truthful it is not a question of a lack of tact, it is a fact.
On David’s last point, we do not grant 15 year licences as a matter of course to teachers or other public sector employees, because we do have local people away training as teachers and in other professions who wish to return to their homes and families and get a job. we do not want to block jobs they may wish to take up in their own island, for instance we used to give licences for primary school teachers, we no longer do because we have filled those posts with returning locals, in fact we currently have 3 or 4 local primary school teachers looking for teaching jobs on the island. We do issue longer licences for specialist teachers and other professionals in our health service where it is clear that there are no local applicants and where there is a national shortage of those teaching or medical skills, look at education’s and health’s licence figures and you can see that is obvious. Secondly there is a significant cost to the taxpayer when entire families become permanently resident their children will need to be educated; they will require medical services and a host of other services that have to be supplied and as it is a Housing Control Law there will be the loss of a home to the local population.
Carts the licence figures are a snapshot taken at a particular time, people move in and out of Guernsey all the time. Short term licences are nine month licences where the licence holder has to take a break in residency for three months in every twelve, that is so that they do not build up long term residential qualifications, as any subsequent licence granted starts the period from scratch. This is also the sector where the figures are high but where we also have the biggest turnover, they do not as rule result in permanent residency. Long term licences are five years and above to a maximum of fifteen.
fifteen year licences are given sparingly and only to professionals that we simply cannot source locally.
Your quote
633 incoming and only a population increase of 551…do we know if those 82 that left were on expired licences or locals emigrating away from Guernsey?
First, the figures that you quoted are for the total numbers of employees living in Guernsey at the time the count was taken, i.e. at 31 March 2008: they do not represent the number of licences issued in the preceding twelve month period. In other words, there were 555 employees in the finance sector living in Guernsey by virtue of a housing licence (each of which will vary in its duration and date of issue) at that point in time.
With respect to the 616 licences quoted in the press as being for “civil servants” they were nothing of the sort. The majority of these licence holders are teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers, police officers, etc providing front-line essential services to Islanders here is a breakdown.
Education 251
Health and Social Services 275
General Public Sector 90
There will as I have already said, be movement of people all the time, some will be locals leaving others will be locals returning we often forget about that group, some will be licence holders. Finally I thank you Carts for your understanding, it is a difficult job and as you can see from some of the posts on here is clearly all my fault personally. I don’t mind as I have fairly broad shoulders but you do wonder sometimes whether the people who post some of this stuff actually know that we have departmental boards where all of these decisions are made and where states policy is carried out. Probably not.
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We need work permits. The Housing Control just doesn’t suit the current situation. You apply for a licence, it’s for the role and its for a period of time.
Housing works in isolation, like most of the committees. THer eappears not to be any coherent employment strategy or forward planning. Sure we need specialist nurses – but why isn’t health telling Education that in 5 years time we need x amount of x staff. So lets at least try and train through what we’ve got or encourage students to take on roles pertaining to future job vacancies.
What’s the point of 20 social workers going to University when we know there are only 3 jobs available when they all graduate?
It really can’t be that hard.
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You’ve lost it Darren
>>‘they all knew’ which suggests ‘those outsiders’< <
That’s because we are talking about applicants and we are not applicants so that makes them ‘they’. Perfectly acceptable use of grammar. Well, unless of course yo uare a) hyper sensitive b) have an agenda
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Jackie: I completely agree with your statement ‘why isn’t health telling Education that in 5 years time we need x amount of x staff. So lets at least try and train through what we’ve got or encourage students to take on roles pertaining to future job vacancies’ I really hope Deputy Jones reads and takes on board your idea. While we cannot force people into these jobs, if i had known there was a definate job in a certain career after my degree, id have been more likely to work towards it. Many people go off to Uni not knowing what they want to do. So a bit or guidance would certainly be valued.
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I would like to see statistics on licenses granted for low-skilled employment with a headline such as “Local jobs but wheres the locals?” or the “Jobs that the locals dont want” with statements from the companys who cant find staff and the unemployed people who refuse to work in those positions. A story that shows the other side for once rather than just some shock statement from a random ill-informed deputy ready to cash in his pension.
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I am very interested in the comment of Deputy Dave Jones that “… no employer whether in the public sector or private business has the right to tell people on a five year licence that it may be extended or renewed, because it is highly likely that it won’t and I have often heard this anecdotal evidence, however the reality is somewhat different”
The question I would ask is why do so many applicants feel that they have been told that licence extensions would be forthcoming.
I know of an off island applicant for a teaching job who was convinced of being told that the applicant could live in Guernsey without hindrance.
This was only a couple of years ago.
I appreciate what Deputy Jones says about evidence. But, it is not to be expected that those who, apparently, mislead applicants are going to admit their actions.
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Gsygal, thanks for your support. I have thought for a long time it shouldn’t be that hard for the States to publish a public document on the likely posts available over the next 5 years. They should know retirees, licence ends and have a rough idea of turnover. If this was public maybe your parents could have made you known to the a department or at least had some guidance on a swerve in your course type that would have benefitted you.
Most of the solutions to the islands ‘problems’ are solvable by a bit of lateral thinking. Life really doesn’t have to be as hard as we make it.
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It has always baffled me that licences are issued by Housing. As they relate to employment requirements surely it should be in the Commerce & Employment portfolio? But only 90 are in the General Public sector and 526 in the Education and Health areas so these ministries must have a say?
Much of the disquiet is due to not having the proper picture available. We need to know:-
1. Number of licences in issue split between the various sectors.
2. Number of licences in issue five years ago similarly split.
3. The number of licences granted in each year similarly split.
4. The numbers in 1 to 3 above split by length of licence.
This information will tell us whether the population increase is due to licence holders or locals. Of course politicians do not like to deal in facts; fancies and half truths are much more to their liking.
Every member of the States should be made to read “Yes Minister” and its sequels between the election and the first meeting of the States, we might then get better government.
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Do you also write fairy tales Dave Jones?
I still maintain that only Guernsey people should control Guernsey affairs not some driver of large machines.
What do you know about Guernsey that tells one and all that the way things have gone
-legitimate Guernsey people cannot return to their homeland because of the prohibitive cost of housing.
And that “Break you heart” affair of having had to live there many years
Born a Guernsey person should have the right to return to a home at a reasonable price.
The Housing ministry has made it abundantly clear that the highest bidder gets the house. they had the power to stop it, but because it was not in the hands of Guernsey people it grew into a demon.
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Jackie
You don’t seem to understand the difference between they, them, the applicants, the outsiders, the jews, the Germans etc.
Ultimately it is called differentiation by place of origin, which is commonly known as racism. Or, the other caveat, as stated, is differential by how much the boys club like the applicant….
Deputy Jones makes some reasonable rebuttals, but as Stephen John alludes, and as any ‘they’ well know, false promises are often made in respect of licence, the GV / RV of properties etc.
Deputy Jones did not respond to those comments in respect of the ex Treasurer I note – wonder why that is?
Surely there are as many locally born people who have trained as accountants and used and abused the UK for experience before returning?
I wish the UK would bar any Guernsey person from living in England for more than 9 months in a 3 year period……
What makes me giggle is the way people like Deputy Jones hark on about ‘they’ – the ‘foreigners’ when he is clearly English and therefore not a Guernseyman.
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>>should control Guernsey affairs not some driver of large machines.<>legitimate Guernsey people cannot return to their homeland because <<
Define legitimate please. Been working away for all your life and a god given right to come ‘home’ after not paying a penny in tax to the island. Last thing we need is a bunch of returnees in their twilight years.
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Picking straws seem to be a pastime of yours Jackie; so be it.
Legitimate: Lawful. in accordance with the law; born in lawful wedlock; Justifiable, reasonable,
Genuine, hereditary descent.
In other words Men and women born of Guernsey parents (at least one).
As for that rather churluish bit about Returnees in their ntwilight years shows your character in a very bad and awesome light;
You may not know it, but those you call returnees, not having paid their way; If it hadn’t been for many of those Twilighters, Guernsey would have long ago been in an even worse state than it is now
One day; if you’re lucky you’ll be one of those “Twilight Types”
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>>Jackie
You don’t seem to understand the difference between they, them, the applicants, the outsiders, the jews, the Germans etc.<<
I do Darren if it’s not me then it’s ‘them’ – simples!
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And people question why major capital expenditure is required on our infrastructure…. a 551 population increase in 12 months on an already heavily over-burdened island is just nuts. We’ll be more populated than Jersey before long!
Does our local government ever consider the big picture?
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Your all clowns-eric you have provided some very valid and well made points in other posts on other threads but im afraid this time what you write is utter twaddel!What difference does it make if you are “born” in guernsey? To living in guernsey for 30 years? I was born in Guernsey, but I havent lived here for 30 years! Does it mean because I was born here – i know more about being a “guern” then someone like Dept DJ who has been here a considerable amount of time. Perhaps I should run the island because I am a guern? I tell you what – im glad we dont have more “guerns” running this island because the majority of them are bumbling fools who cling onto something that doesnt exist, and would gladly cut off nose to spite face and would have ruined this island years ago! I dare guess eric that you are a reasonably mature chap in terms of years – but for goodness sake grow up and get with the real world! Or stand for election and make a stand against “them” foreigners. Id be interested to see you manifesto and how many votes you land!
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Brian
The answer to your question as to why housing licenses come under housings mandate, is because it is a Housing Control Law, a law that governs who can occupy local market homes. Employment licenses again are issued with specific housing options attached, which can only be the remit of the States Housing Department. The public sector do have a say to a certain extent as several members of staff, especially in our health service will be housed in their own accommodation where they don’t actually need licenses. The license figures change all the time as people’s license periods come to an end and others begin. It will always vary on a five year cycle as the economy dips and climes depending on the job market and how well our non finance businesses are doing together with the buoyancy of our finance industry. Most of the answers you want are already in the public domain as the license figures 2007-2008 have just been released which gives you the breakdown you require.
Eric
First of all Eric, I do not control Guernsey affairs, that is done by the States of Deliberation and 45 elected Deputies together with two Alderney representatives. My board and I carry out housing policy and enforce States resolutions. I would be quite happy for you as a Guernsey man to take over my role at anytime, that of course would be after a general election and subsequently being appointed to the job as head of housing by your elected peers in the house, I am sure you would do a very good job. Secondly how does the housing department have the power to control private house sales? That is the market force of supply and demand, the whole point of the housing control law is to limit the number of local market homes that can be taken up either through purchase or rental by people from outside Guernsey coming into work or to staff our public services, which is why we set TRP rates to limit even those purchases to certain homes that are usually above what local people are competing in the home market for. The cost of housing in the Island reflects our community, where there are still high paid jobs and as a result a fairly high standard of living, good schools a great health service, a safe and secure environment, reasonably low taxes and charges, a great place to live. If you want cheap housing you will have to go to places in the world that have none of these things, Rural Northern France is a classic example, where there are any number of cheap homes simply because nobody wants to live where there is no work. Guernsey has been a victim of its own success in many ways and your comment on affordable housing in the island is not supported by the facts, as Guernsey has one of the highest home ownership rates of anywhere in western Europe.
Darren,
I do not respond to individual cases as that would be an absolute breach of trust. I am happy to discuss any topic on a public forum but as I say not someone’s individual housing or license situation. What I will say however was that the job was advertised as States Treasurer, which is a long way from being just an accountant. Finally I certainly do not make any distinction about the ‘foreigners’ as you put it, I only refer to license holders or applicants, if others wish to read into that something that is not implied then that is a matter for them.
Dave Jones
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Let’s just look at this issue of birthright for a minuet, under human rights laws we are not allowed to discriminate against people. unless as article 8 says “There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.”
If birthright was given as an absolute right to every person born in Guernsey, whether local or not and that absolute right included the automatic right to permanent residency which is often the point that is made ,”my child was born here so they should have an automatic right to return” or “they are local because they were born here and should be allowed to live here” which are just two illustrations of things that have been said to me, that would mean anyone who was here on a visit or on holiday who gave birth on the island would assume those rights it may be that people from anywhere in the world would plan their pregnancies to coincide with the child being born in Guernsey thereby securing automatic rights of permanent residency, I am not sure that is what many local people would want which is why birthright (under the law) even for local people does not exist.
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Well said Dep DJ! in the words of a royle, “birthright my a**e!
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What makes you offensive to me and others Deputy Jones is your apparent delight as you showed when referring to those houses in the Mount Arrive road.
“Let’s tear them down” I think was your ridiculous outburst- you caused many a heart ache there by people who didn’t call them old houses, but called them *Home*
That is only one of your many outburst; it seems as if you delight in hearing your voice, and seeing your name in print.
A Guernsey man would have gone about his job carefully and with aforethought.
Then to say you can have my job anytime is old hash, as you quite well know, but it sort of-in the users way seems to cool things off.
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WOW…….so commented.
I was born and broght up in Guernsey. I moved to Ukto go to uni, i am gaining experience in my career but would maybe like to return.
Can i return and live in local market?
Whats the time line?
I really dont think pople wopuld time their pregnacys for Guernsey bring back paying for births……
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Skilled workers…..pay for locals Uni costs in FULL with a clause return for a 5 year working period to maintain FREE paid. Army do similar in UK.
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Arnald – I am not aware of any special rule for lawyers that means that you get a guaranteed licence upon becoming an advocate. My understanding is that a non-local advocate would be assessed under the same “essential” rules as everyone else and be subject to the same maximum period for a licence.
James Murray – you say that the 2 options of issuing a 15 year licence or a series of 5 year licences makes no difference to overall population and is just a question of turnover (with all of the disruption that produces). That is not quite true as anyone who gets a 15 year licence knows that they can stay for good if they serve the full 15 years, whereas the series of 5 year licences to different people can go on forever without ever creating permanent rights of residency. Also, if you take the view that people become less ambitious towards the end of their careers, there may be an advantage to the economy in replacing some senior staff with a younger, go-faster replacement every 5 years (not always the case, but for some positions this would make sense).
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mmm – if you were born in Guernsey then you will get your permanent residency qualification (which can never be lost) if you have treated Guernsey as your home for 10 years or more. If you only moved away from Guernsey to go to Uni then you will have a life-long right to return and live in the local market.
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I think a lot of people are blaming Deputy Jones for something which is out of his control. As he states, his department has a mandate to work to which is given to them by the States of Deliberation.
The ex-treasurer is coming in for a lot of flak here but he probably cannot answer for himself as he has probably left the island. Just because he was given a 15 year licence doesn’t mean he has to stay here forever does it. I believe there is an accountant and a chief officer doing his old job so in a way he did the job of 2 people surely? Why wasn’t the job advertised as a treasurers job – may have got some of the high flying locals apply then – rather than just another accountants job which went to a licence holder for some reason. It is true that the houses licence holders can buy or rent are at the higher end of the market but the tax payer is paying half of that so they get to live in high standard accommodation at our expense. Do away with rent allowance and pay them the same as anyone else doing the job – then we will see how keen they are to stay in the island. Our youngsters have little chance of getting on the housing ladder unless they get help from friends and relatives.
Anyway, what we should be concentrating on are the people who come over here, end up in prison, usually needing medical treatment and detox etc and are then given a house and benefits – what are they doing here, they should be deported. I have heard it happens a lot – how do these people get here in the first place if they don’t have a job. Perhaps work permits are the answer?
I have come to appreciate the work housing do – in keeping down the population and i hope they continue to be strict in who gets a 15 year licence. Do they do spot checks of firms to ensure they are employing staff legally? Encouraging local residents to come back to the island after University is worth looking at. You don’t have to be born and bred here to be classed as a local resident either – it is the posters here who are making racist remarks not Dave Jones. I do think that other Bailiwick residents ie. from Alderney and Sark and Herm should be given residential status though instead of having to apply for a licence.
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Why cant we train our own people up and tie them into a contract?
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Eric
I am delighted to tell our community that we are going to tear down some of the tired old housing stock that people have been living in for decades, it has been called for by several politicians and members of the public for as long as anyone in the department can remember. a I and my board have been very fortunate working with the GHA to be able to push these new developments forward, it is great news for the people of Guernsey who desperately need modern well insulated housing. Many of the former residents of Mont Arrive will benefit from these new homes that as I say are properly insulated and fit for modern living and will help considerably with reducing ever rising utility bills to tenants. On your second point about the media, it is the media’s wish to cover these stories and it is my job as Housing Minister to answer the media’s questions, I was asked at the Mont Arrive site if I was glad to see the demolition taking place, I answered that I was and I added that could not wait to see the demolition of the Bouet begin signaling the end to those awful “barracks” that people have been living in for far to long. I am not sure which bit of my job I am not doing carefully?
Merlin
I thank you for your support, The States Treasurers job was advertised as such and it was always going to be a difficult post to fill, as to all intense and purposes he or she would be the States chief financial adviser an unenviable task at the best of times and the chap who got the job I have to say was very good at it. Your point on 15 year licenses is absolutely true in the last 15 years, 810 people have been granted a 15-year licence. 407 are still here serving the Island under that licence, and 186 have stayed after the licence has ended. Remember this last group have given their skills and knowledge to Guernsey for a considerable period and have decided to exercise their right to stay. However 217 15-year licence holders left the Island before they became qualified residents. So over a quarter of all the people who have been given 15-year licences in the last 15 years have since left. And it has to be remembered that not all people who come here on a 15-year licence will bring a family, some will be on their own, some will have grown up children who will never add to the Island’s population.
On your last point about spot checks Housing officers from the housing control section of the department regularly carry out spot checks on building sites, Vineries, company premises, small firm etc some of the checks are as a result of intelligence that has come in from members of the public and some of the checks will be in conjunction with Social security who also carry out checks on employers and employees. As for Alderney and Sark they need licenses simply because islands are two independent jurisdictions in their own right, we do work closely with both of them, If Alderney had the proper restrictions as to who can settle there, so that Alderney could not be used as a back door for residence in Guernsey, we might then be able to treat Alderney as part of the bailiwick as far as the Housing control law goes you will be pleased to know that talks between us are on going on this issue and I am due to visit Alderney sometime soon to see how this matter can be further progressed. We do give special consideration to children from Sark and Alderney as clearly if they attend schools in Guernsey for higher education etc then they will need temporary permits to live.
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“permits to live.” Well that’s it, Housing have gone too far this time!!! ;)
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TL……..so i can return to live in local market, no matter how long i stay away? I left 9 years ago.
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I apologise jakie I left the in Guernsey bit off the end
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Deputy Jones
I will give you this – you certainly like to get your point across.
Why are you on this forum, making sweeping statements in one breath, and then, when someone puts you on the spot, stating ‘I’m not responsible, it’s the job of the 45 Deputies’.
Either shut up and let the head of the States make his statement, i.e. Trott, or gain the opinion of the 45 Deputies before responding.
Dave Clarke may have been the ‘Treasurer’, yes, but he was just an accountant, nothing more nothing less.
States funding was squandered into nothing when he and Lyndon ran the show, so don’t suggest for one minute he did a good job – in fact, he was responsible for removing the governance function from the States which is why the £350k report slams States for not providing Value For Money.
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Such long epistles to help squash any anti-housing affairs: I suppose you get an allowance for all the paper and ink.
But of all the letters and arguments and anything else including finances- for my part the most valuable of all is FREEDOM,
Therefore as long as we are under the George flag there is no freedom and has not been for many a long century.
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Darren
I don’t need to gauge the opinion of 45 states members in order to relay the facts. Population management is and always has been a matter for the states as whole, the fact is that the States have never given a strategic lead on population, it has preferred to let the housing control law manage the very small percentage of those who apply to live and work in Guernsey, which leaves the vast majority of people free to come and go as they please, so there has never been any proposals or solutions as to how the island manages the rest. When any new housing control law or system of population control is put forward, it will be a matter for the States to decide as a whole not the Housing department, which is why I am not responsible for things outside my department’s control. As to why I am answering these questions and not Deputy Trott is because several of the comments and questions on this blog have been directed at me. Now I know there are some people who would rather some of their statements went unchallenged, which is not how it works and you are free to challenge me on any issue. My view on the ex treasurer is very much different to yours, in fact it was Dave Clark who gave several presentations to all States Members warning on every occasion that government spending had to be curtailed. Both him and the then treasury minister and his board which included Deputy Parkinson,reined in government spending by a massive 8%, with several people loosing their jobs and staff not being replaced as people retired. Those savings were recognised by everyone, including I might add the Guernsey press who have commented that since the start of this new administration the check on spending appears to have slipped back. When Dave Clark left his job, the economy was in good shape that is still the case and for all those who doubted the decision on zero 10, if we hadn’t had the sense to go down that route, we would have been on a black list today. I suppose now you would like me to “Shut Up”
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mmm – yes, provided you were born before 1994, you lived in Guernsey for 10 years before leaving and at least one of your parents treated Guernsey as their home at the time you were born. If you want to hear it from someone official, give Housing a call and they can tell you over the phone what your position is.
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Dep Jones said – “…and for all those who doubted the decision on zero 10, if we hadn’t had the sense to go down that route, we would have been on a black list today.”
Can anyone corroborate this statement, or is it more disingenuity?
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>>Parkinson,reined in government spending by a massive 8%,<<
Are you sure Mr Jones. Your saying government spending has been reduced by 8%? 300milion a year cost of government suggests an annual saving of around 26million. I’m sure I would have rememebered that if I’d heard that. In fact, I’d be over the bloody moon!!
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Arnald
Our previous corporate tax system was non-compliant with the OECD’s and the EU’s codes of conduct as the system treated companies owned by non-residents more favourably than companies owned by non-residents. That “ring-fencing” had to end. I have no doubt that the support of the OECD of our finance industry, which of course proved vital at G20, would not have been given if we had not changed our tax system.
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Deputy Jones
Re your April 1st 1.28pm posting, so what if some or even most people granted a 15-year licence as teachers etc opt to stay and have children here who become local ? Yes, there’s a price to pay for those children needing to be educated and treated for medical purposes, but that’s a small price to pay. Look at how much is wasted in recruitment fees and relocation fees to replace them every 5 years ! How do you put a monetary figure on the disruption caused to our children’ education by kicking them out after 5 years ? Let’s just accept that its a necessary cost to the island of providing an essential social need.
Its already been identified that there is a need to differentiate between primary school teachers (of which there appears to be a stream of locally-qualified people) and secondary school teachers in specialist subjects (where such a supply does not exist). That is common sense and must be applauded. But it cannot be very difficult to keep a track of local people who go off to train as teachers and to keep a track of likely numbers of returnees in the following 5-year period.
Until we take a pragmatic view of housing licences for essential non-economic employees this topic will never go away, but we already know that the demographics of the population require more working-age immigrants to manage the local pension burden. Personally I can see no problem with granting 15-year licences to up to say 50 non-economic essential employees each year in Education and Health, combined with a more active monitoring of those locals in training in the UK, who we as taxpayers are funding, so that needs can be matched with resources. There must surely be a legal way of trying to prefer those coming without pre-existing large families, so as to minimise the social costs, but charging realistic licence fees for economic licences (is the employee essential or not ?) would fund the extra social costs if those 15-year non-economic licensees once they have children who in turn will become local.
As I say, overall its a small price to pay.
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Jackie April 5, 2009 at 10:02 pm
comments on the comment “Parkinson,reined in government spending by a massive 8%”
Time and time over the past few years so many claims have been shot to hell by simply referring to published figures.
We must remember the old saying lies, half truths and statistics!!!
Well spotted Jackie.
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I agree that some 15 year licences in essential jobs i.e. police, teaching, housing etc should be considered, but perhaps the way they are considered should be rejigged. At the moment they are blocking jobs – because they tend to be the senior jobs which attract 15 year licences which means up and coming locals have no chance of promotion. This has happened in many public sector departments and may be the reason why it is so difficult to make the public sector change. No one wants to admit they have made bad decisions or not taken things forward. Perhaps the politicians need to consider how succession planning is going to work and actually pay for the back fill as individual departments with licence holders in charge do not appear to want to train up locals – as they are looking after their own jobs.
This island definitely needs help and we will never be self sufficient but i always ask myself why someone who is professing to be at the top of their profession in the UK or elsewhere would want to uproot their families to come to Guernsey for 5 years: is it because they are ‘promised’ a 15 year licence or because they really are not as good as they are making out?
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David
Nearly every jurisdiction I know has some sort of recruitment package, so we are by no means unique, on the question of 15 year licences you are missing the point, a 15 year licence means permanent residency, which in turn is a permanent addition to the population not only of the licence holder and their immediate family who once settled permanently, will also mean several members of their extended family moving to Guernsey as well. Further, as it is a Housing Control Law the permanent loss of a local market home forever, as that home is likely to be passed down from generation to generation. In a very few years we would need to build significantly more homes to cater for all these additional permanent residents and perhaps David you could suggest where we do that? The island is already one of the most densely populated and overcrowded places on the planet and the indigenous population are adamant that they do not want it to get any worse. I can tell you that the on going costs in providing services for all these new permanent residents and the costs in further over development of the island would be huge, that is not as you say, a small price to pay. We are as you know looking at Key worker housing which will help the situation and go someway to addressing the problem of loosing to many local market homes which local people have to compete for and I expect to see much more of this type of accommodation in the future. As for the disruption to children’s education the pass marks of our students don’t bear your argument out, in fact they seem to improve year on year and it has to be remembered that where Education make their case for a longer or 15 year licences in areas where there are specific skill shortages of specialist teachers those licences are granted but we will not do as you wish and just issue blanket 15 year licences to everyone. We also believe that as in primary education we can improve the ratio of local teachers taking up teaching posts in our secondary schools by doing just as you suggest and monitoring those who are away studying in those professions that Guernsey desperately need, one problem of course is that many people will stay away for a number of years gaining the widest experience they can, so we don’t know exactly when they will return but I do agree we need to do much more succession planning in this area. Your point on the future demographics is an interesting one as the 5 year licence does not allow people to stay permanently adding to the problem further down the line, what it does do, is keep a flow of economically active people flowing through the economy without the added burden of having to fund all their needs when they retire including housing and all the extra medical care we all need when we get older. Your point on charging for licences takes us back to reminding everyone that this is a Housing Control Law and not a revenue raising scheme, once we move away from protecting local homes to making money out of increasing our population through licence charges then the control element will be gone.
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David says “Our previous corporate tax system was non-compliant with the OECD’s and the EU’s codes of conduct”
Was this ever confirmed, other than by the pro zero10 cadre feeling on the matter?
Has the view been tested in tax law?
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