On notice
Wednesday 15th April 2009, 2:30PM BST.
PRIME Minister Gordon Brown has warned Guernsey that it must continue to go above and beyond international standards of tax transparency or risk the issue coming back before the G20.
In a letter to Chief Minister Lyndon Trott, Mr Brown also said the island would need to be prepared to meet new international standards as global efforts shifted from dealing with tax transparency to focusing on the issue of tax avoidance.
The PM told Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man that inclusion on the OECD white list of cooperative finance centres did not mean the islands could stand still – instead insisting that the Crown Dependencies must put ‘clear water’ between themselves and other jurisdictions which only just meet international standards.
But when asked by the Guernsey Press for clarification on what constituted ‘clear water’, Number 10 was yesterday unable to do so.
All a spokeswoman would say was: ‘The Prime Minister set out his position in the letter.’
Mr Brown told Deputy Trott that he welcomed the progress Guernsey had made in meeting the OECD target – although adding the steps should only be seen as an indicator that the island had committed to the principle of tax transparency.
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So are we in or out of the doggy doo?
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We were never in it – he is just saying keep up the good work – dont tread water or you will find yourselves in the doggy doo as you put it.
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Fear not, people of Guernsey, our dear leader has proclaimed that he is in agreement with Gordon Brown re tax havens. Quite how he is in agreement is beyond me, as a huge amount of Guernsey’s business is directly dependent upon legitimate and perfectly legal tax avoidance, which is what Brown wants to attack next. If the fiduciary sector is decimated then other sectors will suffer massively as a result (investment managers, lawyers, accountants etc) so it does seem very strange that Trotty is so bullish. Then again, he’s proved time and again that he’s delusional and unrealistically optimistic so perhaps his attitude isn’t so baffling after all. I’m sure we all have the utmost faith in him.
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Brown giving valuable advice isnt that an oxymoron?
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Andy_
The mind boggles at such outstanding democrtic bull- my word he can’t keep his own house in order, yet tries to tell others to so do, what a bl y cheek
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Well said Phil – I sometimes think that the ordinary folk of Guernsey like me and you are more astute than the Nivens, Trotts, GIBA etc.
If we can see what’s coming, why can’t they? It’s baffling! (and dangerous)
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Phil – I have to say (reulctantly it must be said) that I agree with you.
Ultimately Gsy has competitive advantage over the UK and this won’t do so it will have to two the line, or more water will be put between the UK and Gsy which will make life rather hard….
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So Mr Brown personally manages the demise of his own economy, can’t see a way of fixing it and hops on the tax-haven bashing bandwagon in the hope it’ll fill his coffers again…. The man’s pure genius.
As for the letter coming from Brown himself, who are we kidding? Written by an office junior in a far-flung department, rubber stamped and sent to all the naughty-boy jurisdictions worldwide.
Independence now!
:)
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ED Smith.
Your last line:
100% with you on that. NOW!
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I wonder if Trotty has Mr Browns mobil number too… lol
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Ed & Eric… Independence.
Ask the GP to set up a voting screen on this site again.
Would you vote for Guernsey independence. Yes or No.
Wonder what the results would be???
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If Guernsey gets independance – who will sign up for the forces that will protect us when some idiot meglomaniac decides to invade us and make us his own? Will you Ed or Eric be taking up arms?
Id like to see the Guernsey Militia and the Cadet Corps take on some foreign countries armies!!!
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SDG. If I remember my history nobody protected us last time, and it took another year after the Normandy landings to come and see if we were ok. I believe we were deemed expendable
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Concerned Guern – I am deeply offended by your statement.
How dare you state that no one protected ‘us’ last time.
My grandfather and his friends were nailed to the sea at Dunkirk and went back in years later to Italy, France and Africa. Many of them died as you well know. They did this for you and every other person of UK origin or relation.
Guernsey was and is a small island and any attack would have been pontless given that it would have resulted in bloodshed for locals (bear in mind that bombers often dropped bombs miles off target).
You can believe what you like, but I think you will find that the fanatical German troops, and those areas of strategic military importance, lied to the east, not on an island in the sea to the west.
Normandy landings, 6th June, Guernsey liberation 9th May, = 11 months; not bad if you ask me given how many people lost their lives.
Guernsey had it very sweet in the war – only very few people were killed as a result of violence. Look at London, Covenrty in the UK, or Hamburg, Dresden and other places in Germany; sometimes in ONE NIGHT there were more lives lost than the number of people who lived on Guernsey, so do me a favour….
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Darren:
I would like to point out the reason for Concerned Guern,s note;
Now please do not take it as a rebuke, or a nasty note from me,
However if you weren’t there you really have no idea of what went on; I’m pretty certain you never fell fail of the Hun that bestial nation of Nazis.
In would always vote for independence, on the grounds I do not feel free under the yoke of England.
I could show you messages we received from the King; They sounded very much like the Navy boys used to Say–”Blow you Jack I’m inboard.”
Then the ridiculous way in which one was treated when on joining the Forces right after Occupation to be picked out as a collaborator. n Oh yes it happened, further things happened, like being shot by by your own because you were a Guernsey man
It went on and on:
Therefore I say if we are to be insulted or receive the treatment we have had for hundreds of Years then we might as well have it from our own, not a foreign nation.
Your statement about a foreign lot taking over borders on the ridiculous.
But there you are; you are entitled to your views; as I point out mine and many Guernsey people
en passant: I too lost family in the British services. I too had a father Gassed in the WW1
Suffered till his dying day.
The point being made is they didn’t even try to defend, or help out:
But always they demanded money—
Thank you_ but for my part; Independence from the UK.
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we have heard these calls for independence all too often and all it would lead to is guernsey becoming a cayman islands style state,where the wealthy resident and corparate banks call the shots not the local person.it is happening now they gave a tax cap cut to the higher earners and lowered the upper earnings limit taxable from 250,000 to 200,000,because they claim if they did not these people would leave,they gave the banks zero corparate tax,and now we have to pay for blood tests.ask yourself how many people born in guernsey are in that higher earnings bracket,at least if some young people can leave this island if they wish too under the present system and live and work in england it gives an alternative to an island that has become expensive to live in.i only wish british forces had remained here during the war and fought on for us,but many of the people who write on this site would never have been born as the island would have been bombed to rubble.
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Well it’s time for the Guernsey Press to take that poll!
SDG, please enlighten us as to who would invade Guernsey and for what reasons.
The only person who talks any sense is Eric. I want to point out that I am an Englishman but I truly believe that Guernsey should be independent, and have nothing to do with the UK.
Eric can you answer: Has there ever been a referendum on the situation?
Also Darren, if as I suspect you are an Englishman, remember you are not only an ambassador for the UK but a guest in Guernsey. Inflamatory statements like: “How dare you?” are not conducive to good relations in a small community.
If there ever is a referendum, and the island does get independence, you will have made enemies not just for yourself but for the rest of us who are guests here enjoying a better standard of living and life than back home in the crime ridden UK. Perhaps you would do well to remember that.
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Paul;
It would seem you weren’t around at these times of war.
If you were, and lived on Guernsey at that time; then your memory is pretty bad,
I say that because you have talked of Bombing, and how, if the English had stayed it would be bombed:
Now think back in the reverse of that statement of yours’
The bombing was there, we never knew when the next lot would come; but they came; and they bombed: The RAF started; then the USA had a go with their Lightnings, that twin fuselage thing; Then the Canadians not wanting to be left out had a go.
They bombed the Airport, the Harbour and various places. and they killed practically only civilians.
When it was all over and they heard about the Killings they were told
They shouldn’t have been working for the Germans; Men with families and children were expected by that sort of speech, To let their children starve.
The work these people did were not war work, mostly a bit of carpentry, painting and gardening. They even managed to snaffle a few things to help their families.
It is so easy these days to talk of war time when either they who speak out weren’t even born or were not in Guernsey.
And in many cases there wasn’t shelter from the wrath of the Germans; as when they made a commando raid on Sark and tied or handcuffed the German soldiers.
Then in Guernsey the Germans did the same to all Guernsey Civilians in Prison for acts against the Germans- A Reprisal; don’t make me laugh about the feeble utterances you make;
I’ll guarantee, had it been you; (by the way you write) you wouldn’t have had enough underwear for many changes through out every single day.
And just remember this; many of those slave workers had nothing to lose; so they stole and beat our people if any tried to obstruct them. There were killings from those people.
But all was hushed up by the English; I would never again trust the English with anything.
Now I know many will be angry with my words, but let me just say this the ordinary English people are like me, they have also been bamboozled by those in charge; so it’s not to the the general public of England but those bully boys.
If you are as brave as your words, and why I cry down the ways of the English.
Get a friend, or better still an enemy and tie your wrists, then throw a rope over a beam and pull it till you are on tip-toe, and stay like that for 2-3 days. that was only one little trick. there were many more;
When it was reported; the answer came swiftly.
It was war time you probably did something against them.
I ask you of course we did all we could against them. and got a feeling from the English that we had been bad boys-
Still what’s the use in telling you all this: you have been brain washed-
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Hi Eric
A good post – thanks for the feedback; however you assume I wasn’t there or do not know people who were?
Still – it’s good to have open dialect on the forum and its also good to see people nailing their colours to the mast.
Personally I think independence and the war are two seperate issues to be honest, it’s just that people associate the perceived and real lack of armed forces action as abandonment by the British Forces of Gsy.
There are pros and cons (as Paul suggests) but I doubt the Political will or personal might of the Island will ever allow it to become independent.
Eric – I would be interested to see some extracts from the King as it sounds a little odd to me.
Not sure what you refer to with ‘foreign lot’ Eric?
OK – I’ll just put something to the forum; what would have happened if in 1943 Bomber Harris was told that Guernsey was a testing site for V2 rockets? It would have been flattened by bombers out of recognition – that is because it would have made a military objective; in wars there has to be a military tactically sound rationale.
People will counter this and say ‘look at Iraq’ however this is just tactical from the USA’s perspective (oil, infrastructure, cash, Iran / middle east locality).
Ultimately if Guernsey had been independant during the war the children would have had to stay in Guernsey which would have cost massively in terms of food and resources. So you can take your pick.
As for collaboration – it took place, so to be accused of it is to be expected; for them to prove it is something else I expect. I imagine if you were accused of it and were innocent it would be quite distressing.
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Eric.
I wasn’t alive durring the war, But my great aunts were here and they told me many war time stories. And yes they were very hard times.
The German’s made SURE everyone followed thier orders.
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Freddie
Not sure I recognise your comment “but for the rest of us who are guests here enjoying a better standard of living and life than back home in the crime ridden UK” is reflecting reality.
Ture, like Guernsey there are some areas that have a fair amount of crime. However, most places are relatively crime free.
As for the standard of living that is a matter of opinion. All I can say is that you seem to get more value for money in the UK.
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eric i accept your right to your own views and your right i wasn’t born till well after the war,but my father and mother were here during the occupation in fact my father was hoping to write a book on his childhood during the occupation but sadly died before he could write it.he told me about the raids of the raf and canadians and remembered the german anti aircraft guns opening up by the vale mill,he never mentioned that there were any civilian deaths though he knew germans were killed.he always regarded the britsh forces as our countryman and never had any bad things to say about the bombing of the radar sights and airport etc.so i dont know were you get your dislike of england i feel your views are of a tiny minority,and do not represent the majority who were here during the occupation,and if there is an occupation now its that we have been taken over by corparate banks and tax exiles and the states dance to their tune.if you want to be free of the so called english yoke then why dont you start on all the states deputys not born in guernsey ,and what about getting rid of all the docters and medical staff,probaly that is three quarters of them leaving the island.dont accuse gordon brown of being a bully boy when the people of this island are being held to ransom by lyndon trott and zero ten,and the government buisness plan which is an a sham designed to protect the banks and guernseys image in the financial world,were we offered a vote on this no.
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Freddie – it doesnt matter who may or may not, and why the reasoning would be – im sure are many regimes around the world who wouldnt mind setting up shop next to mainland britain and france – a nice little tactical stepping stone just as the germans deemed it.
Point is i really do not think independance will leave us better off – the story of the prodical son springs to mind-and if we were to go independant and then have to grovel back – i think wed probably end up with a lot rawer deal then present!
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Paul:
I do not wish to enter a slanging match with you or anyone else:
Yet as usually happens to make your version stick you come with many tales of woe_ and in some cases utterly ridiculous assumptions.
How if we were bombed if we had the rocket bases etc and so on; those rockets were Hitler’s last stand late into the war, one could say at wars end
You say you have heard from your late father, and others: 2ND hand information is always twisted to make the story good. I am not saying your father was wrong, but maybe you twisted a little.
I’LL give you an illustration about that
“WW1, little or no communications, runners were used; a message to HQ.
“Send reinforcements, we’re going to advance,”
By the time the message arrived at HQ, by many different runners; the message sounded like this.”
“Send three and fourpence, we’re going to a dance.”
Now it might sound exaggerated, but that is what happens with 2ND hand information.
So back to your ridiculous letter; I have a book, written from day 1 of the occupation, detailed.
Of course there was collaboration; Because of that is why I told you about having your hands tied, and many other similar acts upon my body.
It was then; when asked by the English government for details of those scum people; that we began to understand; they rounded them up, took them to England and released them. Then had the audacity to tell us we got what we deserved by opposing the Germans. We should have been meek like little children.
You talk of Guernsey and how they could have destroyed the Island; you are very naive; Don’t you realise that the Germans wouldn’t annoy their cousins more than necessary, Anglo-Saxons are German from the provence of Saxony.
You the Anglo Saxons stole Britain and decided to stay there, That’s when the ridiculous realm of Knights and barons and Lords came into being; on other peoples land.
As was your Empire, stolen.
Now I have said on many occasion that the ordinary English people are like you and me It’s the ruling bodies that do the damage.
I could go on forever about all this, to what gain, you have fixed ideas, we have the knowledge of what happened.
I will give you a true copy of what the messages had to say on the next letter (if there is a next).
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This blog seems to have drifted into the independence debate; but no matter , certainly a more interesting topic than the thoughts of Chairman Brown.
To my mind, if we are seriously going to consider independence then we need to weigh up what we would lose compared to what we would gain.
A few initial thoughts:
Losses:
Military “protection” from the UK – OK so they let us down during WWII but this is still a valid point.
Britishness – I for one am proud of being British and would deeply regret losing that status, but my identity as a Guernseyman supersedes that of being British so if it was in Guernsey’s interests to break from the UK I would be prepared to make that sacrifice.
Freedom of movement – a British passport does make global travel easier. If we chose independence we could, for example, end up having to get visas just to travel to the UK or France (but then again the EU is now
telling us that we have to give advance written warning of proposed trips to France etc, so maybe not such a big loss).
Loss of external pressure on our political leaders – if, for example, our Chief Minister felt he could do anything he liked (without fear of upsetting the UK) who knows where his lust for power might take him !
Gains:
Above all – freedom from UK interference in our political, legal and business affairs.
Ability to draft laws which suit our needs as a small island rather than blindly following every EU directive that gets thrown at us.
Ability to say no to an ever encroaching surveillance society.
Ability to be proactive in designing sustainable energy policies etc rather than feeling we have to wait to see what the UK does before taking any action.
Ability to focus on protecting and developing our cultural identity as an Island rather than feeling we are a satellite of the UK (e.g. promoting Guernsey history and language in schools, applying strict punishments for those who steal from hedge veg. stalls, teaching kids not to leave their rubbish all over Cobo beach – that sort of thing).
Regaining control over our fishing rights
Perhaps other contributors might like to throw in a few of their own pros and cons?
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CD – for what its worth…and bear in mind I’m no constitutional expert!
Options are:
Stay as we are – a Crown dependency.
An independent Commonwealth state (still using Sterling as currency.
An independent Republic (within our EU remit) – still aligned to Sterling.
As above but the Euro as currency.
A full member state of the EU.
A banana republic with our own King (King Trottski), currency (the Trott (if rich you would have the Trotts)), a Guernsey Militia run by Eric to keep the english out…
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as i see it alot of the people who think independence is a good idea tend to be from the wealthy tax exile point of view ie mr perrot little grouping,or people involved at the top of the finance industry,or mr trott who seems to want more power resting in the hands of a few.in my mind and im sure some will disagree they seem to think more independence means better protection for the finance industry and guernsey not being subject to any outside interference makes it look attractive to outside investors,also those people who have come here to live for tax reasons see independence as a way of protecting there investments from inland revenue snooping.i think its no coincidence that some calls for independence have increased as demands for more transparency in tax matters have come from gordon brown,i think if the finance industry ceased to exist than any calls for independence would die away.
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Independence aside, haven’t we just committed over £1 million to promote the finance industry in Shanghai?
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article/2009/200904/20090420/article_398183.htm#explore
Oh dear. Now, where’s that ‘ambassador’…?
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Gilthead:
I love people who have a bit of fun; as you seem to do with your note; most amusing;
However;
Look at it this way;
Think of a beehive; for the moment supplement Queen bee with the CM: He now being the “Big I AM” makes eyes at all the drones, who one big thing in life is to do nothing, except cuddle up the the CM.
So then we have the workers; ah that glorious band of men who don’t mind bending their backs for an honest days work.
The CM and his drones has stopped all thoughts of a days work, so that he can go about in kit gloves and velvet shirts he will in future be known as KING DRONE:
Yes I would prefer Guernsey to be independent of all others. We can do it, it takes guts, and Guernsey men have that
It makes one think why we “Normans, that is” should celebrate Bastille day.
In 1900 a Lord in the insulting (sorry exulted) place said the best thing to do with the Channel-Islands is to make a huge harbour for the Royal Navy: On Herm a railway on the top of the island would have large guns to roll along the railway as and when needed. That’s how much they think of us. They cater for their own, they take and take with nothing substantial in return.
Why is it they have so much money that they cannot help out with these enormous project that Trott and his cronies want; If they wish to stay and bank inn Guernsey then an extra at least 5% should be on their savings. they use our facilities then they should help out not always the true working man of Guernsey.
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I’m staggered that there are people who might think that independence might help us to fight off attacks on our finance industry. Rest assured that it would not ! True that we wouldn’t have to blindly follow certain directives at the whim of Westminster, but don’t for one moment think that we could stick two fingers up to to the rest of the world. That’s a sure way of being ostracised, as larger independent jurisdictions such as Switzerland and Singapore are quickly finding out if they don’t fall in line.
There are many, many things that I despise about this UK Government, and which may or many not be reduced if we were independent, but the bottom line is that we are still better off overall with a relationship with the UK than we would be as an independent nation. Frankly, I don’t think that we could cope with the consequences.
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Yes Eric I was having a bit of fun.
But behind the frivolity was a serious point – David has summed it up very well in his subsequent post.
We are far to small to be truely independent except from, perhaps, reality.
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Oh, I understand that GILTHEAD; but then again have you never heard the saying
“Nothing ventured nothing gained?”
Did you ever hear the story of David and Goliath?
Have you ever heard of a character loved by Visitors and locals alike; an Alderney man but *berthed in Guernsey.
Mr Bonnie Newton (Ex Captain)
His exploits during the war in RN. Never mentioned or honoured, well he was a Channel-Islander.
I will not tell you any of the exploits I with my mates did during those years; it would sound like boasting- but I can assure you- we did what we did, there was nothing else to do anyway; we never knew when our time was up, so we gambled.
And that is what I say Guernsey should do, the fears of being left out in the cold is ridiculous. Roosevelt had it right when he said
“The only thing to fear.- is fear itself.”
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Freddie – you make assumptions, and threats.
‘You would do well to remember it’.
Like I even care what you think?
You have no idea who I am, what my real name is, or where I come from, so dont make assumptions.
Basically – Guernsey is too small to be independent, it can’t even run itself now, god help it if it were independent.
A floating shell of empty greenhouses.
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Crikey – even I am digressing now…..
Eric, back to the point of this article – Guernsey differentiates its tax administration to that of the UK so it will be in the firing line until it gets in line….
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Darren; Firstly may I with complete command of my words; as yet not c.in.c of the militia:
However I wish to make it quite clear- there is no place here for threatening letters.
We may not agree with each other; that’s life, we’re not robots. But the ugly head of threats are not for us.
One reason I wish to be free of the English influence is because if the Island is a Tax Haven, then it is Guernsey that should be the beneficiary, as it is now just a few well heeled so-called gentry like the Old Fort Ghetto: The gains should be to Guernseys uphold: they bank their money and some live here: Profits (all of them) should be for Guernsey;
If such were the case then that CM feller would be redundant, and borrowing as He wishes to do would not be necessary; It is the people who should have lower income tax rates, not the money bags. Fairness would be the Ideal way; so think it over: All we ask is fairness for the people of Guernsey.
That way the People of Guernsey would be better off and the grim idea of being a dependency might soften a little (But not completely) I would still vote to be freed of the Chains of dependency.
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Digress or not, the main subjects are money, (or lack of)and Independence.
If as it seems there will be tax-havens forever more(Till people realise it’s uses, and they are not for the more usual people, the working people)
Therefore with this latest knife in the back from the the big boss, more people will want to use this Guernsey haven.
Therefore now is the time to change that evil 10%; and make it at least 15%; that would stop most of this borrowing, which is sinful-
The people who use the Havens, also use the facilities of Guernsey; therefore they should also help to pay for the upkeep.
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Well Darren here are some of the letters sent by the king to us in the Islands.
I hope you will take note of the dates received, then remember we were bombed on the 28Th of June. occupied on the 30Th of June; and we received in the ‘Press’ only on the 26Th June.
The ruthlessness of the it all made many angry and caused many to no longer trust the English or our own States So Judge for yourselves.
I write word for word as the letters appeared:
—————–
The Bailiff, Bailiff’s Chambers, Guernsey.
Sir,
I am commanded by the King to transmit to you a message from His Majesty for communication to the people of Guernsey in such a manner as may seem advisable having regard to the interests of National security.
I am, Sir, your Obedient Servant,
(signed) John Anderson.
MESSAGE FROM THE KING
TO THE BAILIFFS OF JERSEY AND GUERNSEY
For strategic reasons it has been found necessary to withdraw the armed forces from the Channel-Islands. I deeply regret this necessity and wish to assure my people in the Islands that in taking this decision my Government have not been unmindful of their position.
It is in their interests that this step has should be taken in present circumstances.
The long association of the Islands with the Crown and the loyal service the people of the Islands have rendered to my ancestors and myself are guarantees that the link between us will remain unbroken, and I know that my people in the Islands will look forward with the same confidence as I do to the day when the resolute fortitude with which we face our our present difficulties will reap the reward of Victory.
GEORGE RI
—————–
Perhaps if we had received this message in time instead of the States keeping it locked away; but mostly that dreadful little man the Bailiff; The message was sent for the people; and therefore he had no right to withhold it.
It was the beginning of many failures on his part, and I doubt if many had a good word to say for him.
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Let us hope that all these posts about what the uk did or did not do for us all those years ago are not going to spoil this forum as has happened to so many forums before.
many the time ,has decent discussion and debate been ruined, by those who live in the past, and shout how the island is ruined, yet are not even here to do something about it, fine telling us, who live here, who not to vote for in elections,and who to ignore in states press releases, yet we are expected to take notice , and bow down to those who left the islands many years ago. Maybe we should all leave ,and shout how things were, or could have been if we had stayed.
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Well flyer;
I know to whom you point your finger; it is sad that such can happen;
But then again it is also said that the truth does ofttimes hurt.
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