‘Say anything and they will target your house’
Monday 20th April 2009, 2:30PM BST.
Tuesday Williams fears for the safety of sons Josh, left, and Harvey Mallett when they are out playing in the Bouet. Life on the estate is being blighted by worsening antisocial behaviour including cars being torched. (Picture by Peter Frankland, 0758481)
BOUET residents have compared living in the run-down St Peter Port estate with life in a war zone.
Their comments came after another car was set alight over the Easter weekend and the police are ‘hugely concerned’ that someone could be badly hurt.
Mother-of-two Kelly Barry, 29, watched as a blue Ford Fiesta on the corner of Place des Arbres went up in flames. She said the incident, which happened at 9.30pm on Easter Sunday, was the latest in a long line of events that had left her family traumatised.
‘My children and I were in bed and it was very scary,’ she said. ‘If the Jeep next to it – which had £50-worth of petrol in it – had gone up, it would have been a disaster. I haven’t been sleeping properly for weeks and I’m very stressed because of where I am living.’
Tuesday Williams, 27, said she had been worried about letting her two boys, Harvey and Josh Mallett, aged four and five, out to play.
‘With teenagers drinking and swearing, it’s horrible because my boys can hear it.’
Both boys are learning to cycle at the moment but Miss Williams said she would not leave their bikes outside because she was sure they would be stolen.
Housing minister Dave Jones said that tenants had a responsibility for their quality of life.
‘These crimes must be observed by somebody. I understand that they fear reprisals, but the cycle of behaviour has to be broken – a group of determined residents can change their environment by giving up these people who are making their lives a misery,’ he said.
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I agree in principle with what Deputy Dave Jones says however the reality isn’t as simple as that. When people live in fear it is a hard cycle to break, especially when someone fears reprisals on them or their children.
It’s easy to sit in the safety of the ivory tower and make comments about others. Perhaps Deputy Jones should spend a month or two living in the Bouet Estate to see what life is really like there. He might even spot some of the criminals at work and shop them to the police.
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Comparing this to a war zone is offensive to those who have or are living in a current conflict. I would imagine that the residents in towns and cities in Iraq (and other current conflict zones) would happily take the odd burnt out car and colourful language rather than the current situaton of fear of suicide bombings in markets, unreliable electricity and water supply, military road blocks and curfews to name just some of the day to day experiences.
Now I am not saying that this issue should be ignored, I have no problem with these residents bringing this to the attention of the wider population but you just can’t go round comparing it to a war zone. The message can be conveyed without such sensationalism.
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Deputy Jones also said that it was a ‘law and order’ issue. Yes and no. As it’s also a landlord and tenant issue.
No doubt we will be told that it’s outside and non-tenant children. However, all tenats do have agreements and pressure could be put on the parent(s) of the children under a three strike rule. Scenario as follows:
Police turn up and names are taken
Police pass names to Housing
Housing writes to parents of child reminding them of their responsibilities
They are warned that they are in breach of their agreement
2 strikes later and they are out
You will be surprised how simple application of the rules and a bit of communication between Home and Housing would focus the minds of the tenants and refocus the responsibility of their errant children.
It really isn’t that hard is it?
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I must say it does look a bit like Kosovo during the war years on the estate. Not that I frequent the place or would wish too.
It is most definitely not a place where I would be happy to leave my vehicle unattended for even a few seconds.
These estates are too large for Guernsey. The people that live there seem to be bundled there for a reason. Whether that is lack of education, or many other reasons, it is unfair to those that just want to bring their families up the best they can.
It is most definitely a sink estate. The place is about to be demolished and is long overdue. The parents of the kids are the first to complain. However, it is these same parents that allow their kids to go on the rampage unsupervised in the first place. I have little sympathy.
Maybe an estate officer could be the answer. Maybe we need to adopt ASBOs. But then where does one place the offenders with ASBOs?
Nobody would want them moving into their location that’s for sure. I think the biggest problem is educating these people. They tend to have e very basic education. Very little with regards to material things and little to no respect towards other peoples property.
Generally people that have nice things tend to keep them nice. The Bouet is quite possibly the most undesirable place to like in Guernsey.
I am well aware that this post will get the backs up from some residents so I will state that not all can be tarred with the same brush.
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Dan
Peopel live in fear of fear nowadays. General social ignorance, too much Daily Mail and the left’s inability to construct credible arguments has brought us to a situation where the best people can come up with ‘nightmare’, ‘war zone’, ‘deny access’, ‘bigot’, ‘I could have died’, ‘something has to be done’ etc.
Part of the social malaise I would suggest.
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‘I must say it does look a bit like Kosovo’
Sure it does. All those rotting corpses, dead babies, raped women and men of fighting age with bullet holes in their head. Just like Kosovo isn’t it Paul?
See my previous post!
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Incredible but ASBOS dont work and are in my opinion undermine the rule of law. You need CCTV on there and decent Police work. Penalties should involve short sharp detainment in solitary confinement with lousy food. Also if those that are convicted dont hold a Channel Island passport then arrivederci.
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Paul, I’m sure I heard somewhere that an ASBO costs in the region of £70k to see through from start to finish!! Why waste such money on these idiots?
It’s the parents that need sorting out. They allow this to happen and are the root cause for playing a weak hand.
Jackie, your suggestion is far too simple, uncomplicated and inexpensive to warrant consideration by the States.
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It is difficult to name and shame those responsible, especially if the reprisals could endanger your family or cause damage to property you can not afford to repair/replace. I personally have dealt with criminal damage caused by drunken youths and would much rather keep my head down than pay another £300 bill. This is however, not the best course of action for a long term positive outcome that benefits the community.
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Why be afraid of a minority ,these people are usually cowards full of empty threats who have been brought up by parents who choose to do nothing about their feral offspring.Stick together you decent folk and drive them out.These kids will breed clones of themselves who in turn will make the lives of others a misery. Dont stand for it.
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as a bouet resident who did not appear in the press i want to point out just how helpful the housing the police and other services are being as all this trouble starts up again, but firstly although i dont doubt that the residents comments are not justified id like them to think about how those of us who live closer to the park/family centre feel as this is the main place that these teenagers (and sadly some adults) are hanging around. we see regually some parents of these teenagers who do not live near the park/family centre or even the estate come to that who are buying alchol and getting drunk with the teenagers these same adults are the ones encouraging the teenagers to set fire to cars and shout abuse at the residents who choose not to be involved in their stupid two faced little squobbles that they cause, the police and the housing have been informed as to who these people are many times, they cant deny that as they have moved people who have complained away from the estate rather than tackle the trouble maker, also only in the last week i know that the police have been called on many occations including to a 5yr old child who was spat in the face by a teenager, another child roughly pushed from the bike they were riding and a child being hit by a poll,under age drinking, smacking glass, illigal driving/riding fast up and down the road and stealing from gardens and the police have done nothing at all infact they didnt even turn up sometimes also a child who whilst playing on the park (a rare time that the teenagers had ‘let’ the children play) had a large piece of glass go through her shoe and slice her foot open, another fell from the slide and got cut on glass left by the drinking at the weekend. its not just an evening/weekend thing either some teenager are they all day swearing/playing loud music/drinking. my children do not play unsupervised out there, but sadly some of these issues are being taken into school and causing problems there too. the housing do know who is causing these problems however the ‘adults’ are not being delt with which means the teenagers think they can get away with it, one last thing where are the parents of the teenagers who dont live down here? do they know where their teenagers are? what they are doing? and why arent you doing something about it? adults? parents? police? housing? social services? and social security?
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The trouble is if you step in and do something about these teenagers and send them on there way
Who do the police book come and hassle.. You..
You are not allowed and it is illeagal to talk or act in a detrimental manner to them to a youth of 17 years or less..
When I was a lad.. All the neighbours would got together and given you a fee in the ear, kick you up the ass, told you to push off.. If you didn’t some one would go and get your parents out to sort you out … Then you had to look out.. parents don’t like being publicly embarrassed..
But to be honest, I would rather get called to go and sort my own kids out rather then the police doing it.. And beleive they would be punished if I had to.
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Dean..sorry to hear that you have been a victim of these filth,but if you keep your head down in fear of reprisals the battle is lost, get together stand firm without fear ,keep reporting these lowlives no matter how small the incident is…the Police and the housing department have a duty to deal with this muck who are blighting your area.These moronic scum will breed more, who in the future will spoil life for your children and grandchildren. Evil will prevail if good men do nothing.
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“the housing do know who is causing these problems however the ‘adults’ are not being delt with which means the teenagers think they can get away with it,”
That’s my point. It’s unacceptable for Housing to distance itself from this and hide behind it being a ‘law and order’ issue.
Hosuing and Home could work together and work some of the problems out. I accept that some of the problems are not born of estate children, however, starting with the tenants and their children would have some effect.
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Neil – Although I agree that these people are cowards and issue mainly empty threats, it is when they combine to form groups that they become dangerous. Peer pressure, drink or showing off causes these people do things they probably would not consider if they were on their own.
You are right in saying that it is the parents fault, and in-turn these people will probably grow up to be equally bad parents.
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Jackie
Simple communication between Home and Housing in naming the miscreants is too common sense for this day and age
If the Police cannot help the Castel Constables with Cobo derelict car numbers I doubt that the stupid Data Protection rules would allow them to name names at the Bouet
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For people with no vision, future or sense of social responsibility there is little that can be done to encourage them to behave.
Not sure what deterrent is legally available to the police or Housing to actually tackle these idiots.
Clearly the threat of arrest or actual arrest for being disorderly is too soft and few people are prepared to testify in court for fear of reprisal.
This problem will get worse unless the Bouet is demolished and rebuilt into smaller units separated by business and private housing.
Big estates don’t work
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Housing have to provide the same proof in a court of law as the police do when taking action against any of their tenants or their children who cause problems on our estates.(Many of these children will be below the age of legal prosecution). Any tenants who break their tenancy agreement by making other peoples lives a misery do put their tenancies at risk even if its youngsters coming from one estate on to another regardless of where they live their tenancies will be reviewed. And we have said all along that if we get the evidence which results in a conviction then we will act. This climate of fear can only be broken by those who are suffering from this anti social behaviour by giving up those who perpetrate this mayhem. Our staff are civil servants, they are not policemen and our housing inspectors suffer the same kind of abuse when they visit some of these areas from un-identified youths and young children. So housing isn’t trying to distance itself from the problem, bring us the evidence and we will act just as we have done in the past. I spoke to the Police again yesterday evening and they are gathering information on these individuals names addresses etc but they will still need witnesses to come forward and that is where it gets difficult. Nobody deserves to live like this and the residents have my word, that if we get the evidence we need and these people are identified as tenants of ours, regardless of which estate they live on, then we will use the law to bring them to book and to repay the department for any damage caused.
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This topic has sparked a fair amount of reaction already. What I would like an answer to is what does housing or the police do with the perpetrators once offences have been proved?
Short of giving them a place to live in the sewer system there really is nowhere that they could realistically be housed.
The police could and should take them to court. However, it would only be the taxpayers money that would be paying fines, paying for legal aid and top ups handed out to mitigate the losses for the fines and the like.
A simple offence could run into many thousands of pounds and the impact would have little to no effect on the offender or offenders themselves. I could be seen by some as a bit of conversation starter cos they have little else to grunt about.
How much would it cost the system to house half a dozen kids from a mother that is imprisoned for any amount of time?
A lot of these parents are feral and very short on education. The majority live on benefits. Have next to no social or life skills and this is now being passed down onto their feral offspring. I think one would find that the majority of these kids have numerous step brothers and sisters from Tom, Dick, Harry and their mates.
A series of Shameless would seem like a quality lifestyle to some of these people. Lots of posters have simple solutions to these problems. In reality the only way forward is education in the hope that one day something will click and somebody will be able to change their mindset.
This is a sign of the times in which our education system has failed a minority but if something is not done quickly then these numerous offspring’s will start to recreate amongst themselves and an explosion will develop.
I cant honestly believe that any Bouetianesque resident would choose to live there. A good start would be to chase the ring leaders out but onto where?
I most definitely don’t want them forming chavvy groups around where I live. One point that does bother me is I wonder what the authorities would do if these idiots were to take there trouble up to Fort George. A lot more that what they are I bet.
The police can’t be held accountable if nobody is coming forward to bring an end to these idiots.
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I have thought of a fabulous idea. Bring Jeremy Kyle and Jerry Springer over and leave them to slug it out with the residents.
If this fails then there really is no hope left!
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Compulsory sterilisation could be an option, although it probably wouldn’t be allowed these days due to the ridiculous human rights laws. Let’s face it, these people multiply like rabbits, one mother has six kids, they all have six kids, who then all have six kids, within 40 years you’ve got 250 of them in existence all from the one original brood mare. Trying to calculate the financial cost is near on impossible, but it would certainly be many millions of pounds.
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Paul.
Why not cut there benefits if they don’t behave ?.
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Paul
The Danish, known for their tolerant society, have an interesting system for people who continually abuse those around them on social housing estates and the accomodation provided to them by the state. It involves housing them on unused industrial estates on the periphery of towns. The accomodation provided there is literally just a shipping container with the basics of sanitation and furniture and that is it. Apparently it has quite a deterrent effect on anti-social behaviour. Not sure how realistic something like this would be over here though.
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On a different tack – surely “Just a Comment” must get the award for the longest sentence in history! Well Done.
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Just want to say that whilst i agree with some of the comments on here i do feel its unfair that some of you are tarring everyone with the same brush. Not all of us on benefit are thick, uneducated brood mares with feral kids. I used to live at the Bouet but my kids have been bought up to be polite and well mannered, even where we now live they are not allowed to hang around the estate.Having said that the parents of some of these trouble makers think the sun shines out of them and they can do no wrong even if they’re caught they ‘were made to do it’so therefore cannot be blamed.I like Spartacus idea, it’ll be ideal if something like that could be implemented over here.Paul also makes a very good point which should be seriously considered.
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Curses Phil you beat me to it!
It should be compulsory for all residents of Guernsey to take a CHAV test (Google “chav test” to find one). If you “pass” the test then I’m afraid its instant euthanasia.
That should rid the Bouet and other parts of island of the anti social element and solve most of Jonsey’s problems.
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Sell off all estates and buy up lower-end replacement properties in random locations. At least, chances are, that the families will find good role models next door and be able to assimilate back into normal life – better chance than at the bouet in any case.
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Wil
How about the worst of the worst from the estate moving in next door to you then?
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Wil – good idea, although nearly impossible to implement. I believe it is these people grouping together that causes the problems, if they were dotted about the island there would be much less hassle.
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When i was younger and used to hang around in groups at different locations we were always visited by police who would come and see what we were up to!! We were always moved on if we were making too much noise etc, are the police still patrolling like this??
Also i remember a youth bus coming around once a week, is that still running?
If youngsters do cause damage etc, then instead of giving them a fine why not really push community service?
In a community where everyone knows everyone surely cleaning up an estate or picking up litter around town would be far more embarassing than getting a fine to brag about!! I’m sure if they were made to clean public toilets for a while maybe they would think twice!!
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Also i was raised in a states house as unfortunately my parents did not stay together and my mother was a single mum, i left school with 11 GCSE’S, then went on to get NVQ’s and BTEC National Diploma and am currently finishing my degree at uni.
Please dont tar all people with the same brush, my mother is hardworking and taught us everything we know from good manners to working hard. And yes we were on benefits until my younger sister started school!!
But its this reason some of us work hard and push ourselves so we can provide better starts for our future families!!
If people encouraged each other instead of slating each other maybe we would all benefit!!!
Also if a parent fails their child it is not only the ones who are on benefits, or poorly educated for example. Thats just an immature view to take!! I know families who are hard working and have their own homes and their children have been to court numerous times, even going to prison!!
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Wil has actually put his finger on the problem, and Dean it is not impossible to impliment. We already have plans to break up the Bouet by allowing the majority of the site to be used for industry and building phase 2&3 on other sites that will be identified by the Land use planning group and made available to housing for this task. We believe that smaller communities work better and the Housing board will not repeat the mistakes of the past, having a mix of social rental (States allocated tenants) GHA own rental and partial ownership will give the eclectic mix that you would find in most communities.
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Katie… publicly embarrassing the young offenders (even tho a good idea) would not be human rights compliant and there would be a public out cry… In this day and age better to send the off for a holiday to teach them a lesson….
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Melc
ah yes the old PC raises it ever protecting arms again lol!!!
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Well said Katie – couldnt agree more with you!
Shame on the rest of you idiots! I dont think it is just Dep Jones that needs to spend some time living on these estates!
If any of you want to get an idea from the safety of your own home what it is like in deprived areas – watch secret millionaire on channel 4 (sunday evenings I believe) and you will see that decent human beings just struggling to live and make ends meet live in deprived areas but are by no means scum!
Same old snobs same old views – stick em out of sight – out of mind!
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Katie, your post was very good, and it is because of people like you that everyone else in Guernsey should stand up and make sure that those people who make life as difficult as possible for others should be brought to task. I used to be a district nurse and it was horrid to have to visit people on estates like the Genants, the Bouet, and the Old Mill. Not, of course because of the patients we went to see, but the abuse we received from the little darlings who hung around causing trouble, just because you happened to have a job and wore a uniform. Our cars would be scratched and vandalised, and we had to go in “twos” because of the verbal abuse. Now I have lived on the other side of the pond, and I realise how very mediocre the people who cause trouble are. They are not “hard” as they like to think of themselves – they are just silly kids who think they have some sort of hold over everyone else. Its this hold that we have to break. Where is the one person who will actually stand up to them? Why don’t more people band together to form a vigilante group to protect their own community. The police obviously can’t cope can they?
My suggestion would be to get Special Constables with powers to prosecute to patrol these areas. NOT on a Sunday morning when everyone is nursing a hangover, but 6 p.m. onwards. DONT put the troublemakers in jail but make them do community work of the tedious type. Or if you have to jail them, then do weekend jail terms from 5 pm on Friday to 8 am on Monday. If they have not got full time jobs – why not? Make them work, or they get no dole, simple as that.
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Here in the UK the courts have given these scum ASBOs, the scum dont care about ASBOs they ignore them, the courts have tried tagging them but these tags are worn as medals and the mindless fools look up to the scum who wear them with pride, the courts have given them community service, that dont work either! The scum dont care about the fear of good people or the damage they do to others, they are bred by scum and will breed more scum until a proper punishment is implemented. Rope and tree come to my mind.
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If only…. What these morons need is something to fear and to respect. I have the answer! Bring back Trotter! He once pulled me over as I was going flat out (30 mph) down the Rohais on my 150 Excelsoir, came out of the dark, silently appeared alongside of me out of nowhere, called my beloved bike a washing machine! What a Guy. When he cruised Guernsey’s streets back in the fifties not a mouse stirred………
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Yes I watched secret millionaire last night and every week it makes me cry. Last night they were in Belfast and if you think the Bouet is bad you should have seen that.Lets have a few secret millionaires in Guernsey (and I know some do)dig deep into their pockets and help these less fortunate people in our society.
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deputy jones i question why you have no evidence. some people have had to go so far as to get harrasment orders on others (although i do not have the details) surely for this to be issued there must have been evidence?
there is some cctv or is that as fake as the claims that this trouble is being sorted out? although the house that i live in is sutible for my sized family i’m sure we could make room for deputy jones to have a bedroom to live in so he can gather his own evidence or just experiance 24hours of what we do.
i take my children to school and their dad and i both work, our children attend many positive clubs/groups (paid for by us) and are doing well in school, so although i agree that there are mothers unable to say no to any sexual advances and then control what they reproduce not everyone down here is the same, some of us have morals and are hard working. surely the young people services could try to play a bigger part in educating parents on how to parent. Social security do fund things like ‘the pill’ and coils and there is always the family planning clinic but some people down here dont even have the sence of mind to use these resources…authority needs to make these parents use them!
if i take a photo of the people smashing glass everywhere will someone else start paying for the tyres i have to keep replacing? will someone else replace my childs bike and scooter that was stolen? sit with my children when they have been woken up? i doubt it because i am just a bouet resident so whatever evidence i do get will be ignored like the phone calls to the police, the housing and the social were.
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Katie: Good Post. I agree with you, i was brought up in a States House (both large and small estates) and there were a few who thought they were beyond the law but in those days the police could clip their ears!
Sarnia Expat: totally agree. Would be well worth the money and would get the scroungers doing some community work – even if it was cleaning up their own excrement off the walls.
These people behave like this because society lets them. Stand up to them and they soon turn into cowards when they are not in their large groups. I can understand the other residents not wanting to go public but having regular patrols by community police/special constables would be a start.
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So the solution is add a mix of people, change the name, build some nicer houses adding some partial ownership. That’s the big idea?
The South East Asians have a saying for this. ‘Sprinkle it with Coriander’.
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“The police obviously can’t cope can they?”
The police couln’t see a bonfire on port soif burning for 3 hours with 100 people partying and 50 cars – so i suppsoe the answer to your question is ‘no’. Or more ‘won’t’
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The trouble in Guernsey is everyone is quick to give their view on things but they never organise anything to change the circumstances!!
Also i’d just like to say to Phil “these people” are also just normal people. Its just that some circumstances are unavoidable!
This is a list of my family My mum, dad and sister, unfortunately they split (which is a good thing better to split then make their childrens live misery!) Next i have a Step-dad and in turn a step-brother and a now beautiful 15 yr old half sister (to put it in technical terms). I also have a Step-mum and 2 highly intelligent gorgeous half brothers (again technical terms) who are 10. Thats my perfectly normal nucleaur family and I love them. My opinion is the more the merrier!!
No body is perfect but some people dont choose their situations. Both my sister and I rent within the private sector and she now has a little girl she and her partner work full time to support their family and provide everything they need.
My youngest sister is working hard towards her GCSE’s and has many dreams of different vocations for her future!!
I think we should give my mum (one original brood mare) a big round of applause for raising us two oldest girls sometimes on not a lot. Whilst finding the time to teach us about the real world, earning our own way and how to put condoms on (so we didnt breed ferrals at a young age)lol!!! Oh whilst also holding down a job and paying tax and SI contribrutions. Not all people living on estates claim benefits.
People achieve what they want from life my mum left school without qualifications due to a medical reason and cannot read or write to a degree standard but she is capable of working and earning and most of all being a decent person which is more can be said for some supposedly educated folk!
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I think we are at a crossroads here, in the UK group housing estates have spiralled out of control, this is breeding gang culture, knife crime and a whole raft of social ills, we have the oppurtunity to nip this in the bud before we follow the UK into a sprial which would be very difficult to stop.
No-one in their right minds will “grass”, because would you fore example?? If you have a 5 year old child, and the person you are grassing up probably will have a weapon of some description?
I agree something needs to be done, but we cant just say “you need to tell the police” because for one, the punishment will be not sufficient a deterrent for these people, and two, I dont think that anyone living outside these situations could fully understand just how intimidating it must be living on that kind of estate to build up the courage to actually report it.
Divide and conquer, split em up into smaller groups of housing dotted around the island, although this would have to be done very carefully because when this system started in the UK, good hardworking homeowners immediately had 10% of the value of their house removed when the councils bought houses on reputable estates and plonked Shazza the single mum and her 11 kids next to Bert & Doris the retired couple who’s hard earned retirement suddenly became a whole lot less peaceful.
Perhaps increased penalties for truency and maybe education could bring a system where if homework isnt completed to a respectable level, then fines are handed out to parents, that would be one way of making them do something other than hang around causing trouble and intimidating people.
I thought the Danish solution was quite excellent actually, a few empty cargo containers down the docks…… sorted ;)
Or we could go down the Jo’burg route, take the good decent human beings out of there and just seal the area off with a big electrified fence and let them get on with it ;))
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National Service could work and possible punishments could be some 1950′s style army training-instill some respect and discipline into those that do not have either. But then the Human Rights brigade will step in and say its a breach of their human rights – stupid law always seems to favour the bad rather then the good!
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SDG – The problem with Human Rights Laws is they are often contradictory in their interpretation. For example, the right to free speech allows hate speech which then breaches someone else’s rights somewhere down the line – taken literally they are unenforceable.
Did you see Panorama on Monday about Health and Safety Legislation? What originally began as a sensible measure to prevent serious industrial accidents/death in work has been twisted beyond all recognition and become a laughing stock.
I venture to suggest Human Rights Legislation has gone the same way. What began as a sensible measure to protect life, liberty and dignity has been warped beyond all measure so that we also suffer under it’s burden.
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A couple of things if I may be so bold.
Katie – great post and you are right, it paints everyone with the same brush.
Deputy Jones – You are quite wrong in your statement about the level of evidence you need to take people to court being the same as the Police. The Police need evidence of criminal damage, or assault (the threat of assault), public order etc which requires the criminal level of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ and requires statements, complaints etc to a specified admissible standard.
Housing goes to court on a civil level which is ‘on the balance of probablity’ which means the court has to assess the case on its merits and take a reasonable judgement based on what evidence is submitted, as opposed to the Police cases which require a judgement based on legal procedure, admissible evidence to a legal standard, and reference to previous case law.
I imagine if a few residents wrote to Housing and said ‘Bob from number 99 had on a few occassions been drunk, abusive, played overly loud music etc’ and the Police had also been called to intervene but not taken further action (as they had insufficient evidence) then Housing would have ENOUGH GROUNDS to remove said resident.
So I disagree that you are not the Police – it is what is known as a cop-out (pardon the pun) and you need to think of ways and means to combat such people.
I sympathise with those affected and detest those who make the others lives misery – if you feel that your house or family are being threatened you are entitled by law to protect that.
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I agree wholeheartedly – yes i saw the programme and all i can say is that I think when my times up on this earth – i shalnt be bothering with a headstone – far too much effort involved for all!
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If somebody pays me, I’ll go down the Bouet tonight with my video camera and record any misdeeds likely to bring about a court appearance for the perpetrators of criminal or anti-social behaviour.
We have to remember, these antisocial people are just losers (and most of them know it deep down under all the anger and bravado). They have little purpose in life other than to express their bitterness in the vilest terms and do their best to make everybody else’s life as miserable as theirs. But this isn’t South Central LA, it’s not some south-London sink estate ruled by professional gangsters, it’s Guernsey, a mere microcosm of the real world. Nobody is going to get shot at the Bouet or knifed to death (events which happen all over the rest of Britain every day as a matter of course) – what is the worst that can happen – some yobs shout abuse at you? Maybe scratch your car? If these people are making the lives of decent law-abiding citizens as miserable as they say they are, shop them. There really is no other way.
There is no excuse for silence or standing dumb in outrage in a situation where the risks of standing up for yourself are so relatively small – you have to speak up.
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Darren
I know exactly what evidence housing need to get convictions as I deal with these problems everyday, if the evidence isn’t there and witnesses are not willing to come forward, then you won’t even get the case past the law officers who are responsible for preparing these cases for court on our behalf. The civil level you refer to is termination of tenancy for serious breaches of the tenancy agreement, that requires hard evidence being produced by the Housing Department.
No court will do as you suggest and convict on hearsay, they want hard firm evidence.
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Deputy Jones are you confusing convictions with tenancy agreements? If I read you correctly there needs to be a conviction to evict? Is it me.
Why can’t you work with Home and take names, write letters and enact any clauses within the agreement?
With the greatest respect it sounds a bit odd and dare I say a bit ‘*misinformationy’
* I made that word up ;)
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Why has nobody yet mentioned the wider societal issues that these incidents are a symptom of?
Can we really be surprised that some of the youth on this island go down this road? We spend all our money on trophy building projects like the airport and the new court buildings; Next to nothing on what is really important for future generations such as our schools.
A sure-fire recipe for the court house / prison to be full of youth offenders in future if you ask me…
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Jackie anyone who lives in States accommodation signs a tenancy agreement. In that tenancy agreement are certain conditions, some of which deal with antisocial behaviour, respect for property and the rights of other tenants. The point I am trying to make is that we as an authority have to prove to the courts by producing hard evidence that the tenant we wish to evict has committed the breach which has put their tenancy at risk. Hearsay is not enough; it has to be documented fact with witness statements from other tenants, together with a record of any police visits that are relevant to the case in question. Short of our housing staff spending day and night on these estates, we have to rely on those being affected by the behaviour of others to give us the evidence we need.
Le’ree Lad
The taxpayers have spent millions on new schools and many more millions on new and upgraded housing, the problem lies with the parents and the issue of discipline, during the 20s and 30s children lived in real deprivation, they did not smash up their communities or disrespect those who lived around them, no matter how poor or deprived, they had structure and discipline in their lives because their parents took control of their upbringing and made sure they treated others with respect. In my view we have to return to those kinds of standards and stop making excuses for the relatively small number of these youngsters.
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“I know exactly what evidence housing need to get convictions as I deal with these problems everyday” …..EVERYDAY ! just goes to show how bad it is eh! ,and just shows what little is being done to stop the rot .No wonder people are frightened in there own homes with such weakness on the part of the housing department and the police.
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What about policing these estates every night/day. Im sure if there was a representative from the police on hand these crimes would be cut by 50%. Or installing cameras to catch the offenders red handed. Im a tax payer and I dont mind the extra cost if it is going to make the lives of people living on these estates a little more peaceful.
The people who live on the estates cannot come forward in person as they are too scared of reprisels, I completely understand that.
Its important to also realise that not all people are the same and a lot of people on states estates not only pay rent, but also respect others and try to be a part of the community. It only takes a few to tarnish the whole.
More often than not the parents of these so called thugs are just as bad as the kids themselves. So the children really dont stand a chance. Now if you were to punish the parents of these underage children, they would be more inclined to sort their children out.
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“The point I am trying to make is that we as an authority have to prove to the courts by producing hard evidence that the tenant we wish to evict has committed the breach which has put their tenancy at risk”
Just so I am clear. You can’t take complaints from residents as part of your ‘evidence’ for breach of agreement. There has to be a criminal conviction? Only a criminal coinviction can be used as part of the eviction process. Correct?
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“Short of our housing staff spending day and night on these estates, we have to rely on those being affected by the behaviour of others to give us the evidence we need.”
Deputy Jones – I accept that is not a viable solution however what are your thoughts on having a police officer or two stationed down on the estate 24/7 as a deterrent until the planned redevelopments are completed?
I appreciate this is a drain on police resources however I would much rather see the police engaged in community policing like this than trying to catch speeding motorists – it’s a question of priority.
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This is without doubt the product of a broken society. Yes, even here in quaint little old Guernsey. And no, it’s not as bad as South Central LA or Brixton or Toxteth, but it is still bad for Guernsey.
Guernsey residents should not have to put up with ghetto style behaivour. Education, education, education. Sadly the system has failed them.
Society has to be re-built from the grass roots up. Good luck to Dave Jones. You and your department are brave, courageous and patient. This is going to take a generation or possibly longer to sort out.
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Deputy Jones
You may deal with these things everyday but you clearly do not understand the law.
What is ‘hard’ evidence? It is not something I am familiar with – do you mean things like bricks, or stones? Ahem.
As I said all you need is the civil balance of probability to evict them, which means evidence that would be sufficient to prove your case at a civil level, not a criminal level.
If someone contravenes the tenancy agreement, and such an agreement includes offensive behaviour, and previous tenants have phoned the Police a number of times but the Police have taken no further action then this in itself is evidence!
Do you understand what Hearsay is Deputy Jones? I don’t think you do to be honest.
Hearsay is evidence that someone witnessed and told another person about and that person then submits this evidence – if a person rings the Police to say ‘Bob from number 99′ etc (as my above example) then this person is providing evidence first hand on what they have seen, heard, smelt, felt etc. This is evidence which is not hearsay unless of course they did not observe this activity.
Get your act together and work with the Police to use the Ways and Means Act and get the lowlives out.
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I had the misfortune of having to go on to one of these estates recently. Not only was it a very depressing place to be, roads in a state, abandoned cars everywhere, bikes/toys/rubbish everywhere, unkept grass – etc. – but it was also like a scene out of Lord of the Flies. I was quickly swamped by young children wielding sticks and stones, with no shoes on and covered in muck. I couldn’t get out of there quick enough.
If DDJ wants any proof of the situation, perhaps a quick wander around one of the estates would illustrate it neatly to him.
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Back to you then Deputy Jones …….?
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Deputy Jones
The vast difference between society in the 20s, 30s etc and today’s, is that in those days most people were in the same boat. Nowadays it’s a real case of society divided by income. Lawyers, doctors, accountants, bankers, stockbrokers, property developers etc make vastly more in real terms these days, and the differential between rich and poor is growing exponentially. The States policies of tax breaks for the wealthy doesn’t do much to rectify the problem, and something like GST will only make it worse still.
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Phil you are spot on with what you say about the divide between those who have and those who dont have and I beleive there is a link to poverty and crime,but these scumbags are blighting the lives of decent people (haves and have nots) and there is no excuse for their actions.I have met many people who dont have a penny to scratch their backsides with and they are the salt of the earth .I myself struggle to pay my bills and could do with a few £s extra each week ,but I dont act in the way these lowlives do,I have more respect for myself and others around me.These vile scum will remain until a stand is taken against them ,but its seems to me that the powers that be dont have a clue how to deal with them or dont give a damm.
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I am privately renting & cant afford to – I am getting further into debt because I would rather do this then bring up my children in disgraceful living like this…
& what do the states do?? Nothing because I earn too much… (yeah right!!) I was actually told if I gave up work & signed on, I would have more cash to spend on myself at the end of each month – unfortunately this is how our current states work & this is why Guernsey is a disgrace at the moment….
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The sheer hypocrisy of this Guernsey politician blaming the parents for lack of discipline. What a fine example of ‘discipline’ he himself has set in the not too distant past supporting our DCM.
You reap what you sow and our society only reflects our weak, selfish, self-serving, immoral Government.
Continously look after the well-off and priviliged whilst ignoring the vulnerable, those in need and those who require support and this is what you get.
The fact that someone can come on here and suggest hanging without any challenge from a ‘senior’ politician is disgusting. You should be ashamed.
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just wanted to say, Deputy Jones or anybody else brave enough to travel to our neck of the woods could you leave it a week or so before you come down here and gather your evidence because since this story has been printed we have had 3 quiet nights here and a 50% cut in the amount of glass and abuse being thrown around, the teenagers and the parents have been gone before midnight
amen
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How about giving families with children the option of a set rent assistance payment instead of a states house?
Removing vulnerable children from estates should be a top priority as they are the ones who will suffer the most adverse effects from the negative environment which has been imposed on them through no fault of their own. If this group can be targeted then perhaps we have a chance of breaking the cycle. If they can find a suitable house in the private sector then they might prefer that option. At least that would give one hope of escaping the bullying and harrassment typically endured at these estates and also give the states more flexibility to help those in real need.
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In the case of W H Bonney above, perhaps the states would be able to determine whether people are in real need or not if they also took the rent/income ratio into consideration (up to a point of course). This would provide great incentive for persons to stay in the workforce and in private rental accommodation rather than dropping out and joining the pension/states housing cue.
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“Removing vulnerable children from estates ” Absolutely not. Why should taxpayers pay for the ‘vulnerable’ when those creating the vulnerability are not being dealt with in accordance with the law, the tenecy agreements and common justice?
I’m sorry Wil, but that’s the sort of response I would expect from a politician. Don’t deal with the real issue and throw money at the victims. It’s verging on leftyism!
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Just a comment, thats great news! ,now it seems 50% of the lowlifes can read and 50% cannot….or dont give a damm.Good on the Guernsey press for highlighting the plight of decent people.
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So many points to cover but here goes.
Pah
On the question of rubbish on the estates, housing put skips on these estates at the taxpayer’s expense and States works clean the estates as per their contract, again I would suggest that it is for the residents to help keep their areas tidy not the taxpayer. I do visit these estates with other members of the board, I was down at the Bouet last week.
Phil
There is an awful lot of state help for people on low and fixed incomes in Guernsey, in fact I often get complaints from islanders that the benefits and other help they receive is to generous. The point is that coming from a poor family should not be an excuse for making other people lives a misery. I agree with much of what Neil says on this issue.
W.H Bonny
If you earn £744 per week (£2,976 per month or under as a family) then you are eligible for States Housing and you can apply, there has to be some threshold and social housing must be reserved for those in real social need, the taxpayer subsidises States housing at around 8 million pounds a year in rent rebates that does not take into account the fact that the rents are well below market rents to start with. The rebate scheme is in addition to that fact.
Bryn
I would remind you that the majority of the States supported the DCM, The states does take care of the weak and the vulnerable, people are entitled to put their views on this blog however extreme they might seem to others, it is called freedom of speech and it is not for senior politicians or anyone else for that matter to dictate to people what those opinions ought to be.
Will
Extending the rent rebate scheme to the private sector has been discussed on occasions and I am afraid the island simply couldn’t afford it. Jersey went down this route and it is costing them millions every year. One figure I saw recently said 30 million. What we have done is added to the eligibility criteria for states housing the disposable income of a family after they have paid their rent which we never used to do.
I will answer the point later today.
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What does it take to be evicted from a states house.Not anti-social behaviour as mentioned,in the above.No, housing would rather take the easier way,like throwing decent hard working people out, there only crime,being very close to retirment age,earning just above the limit,and cant afford housing in the private sector,or should that be rip off sector.
Deputy jones who would you choose as neighbours, its about time housing knew what a rotten egg looked like
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Deputy Jones,
If The States take care of the ‘weak and vulnerable’ would you care to comment on why the 1939 Mental Health Law of 1939 is still in use, as is the 1967 Children law? Why is there no equivalent of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 in Guernsey?
The obvious answer is that you and your Government have spent the last how many years ensuring that wealthy institutions have been well looked after to the detriment of broader society.
I am fully aware that the ‘majority’ (1 vote?) supported the DCM however that does not disguise my point of your hypocrisy in any way.
Just to clarify, I did not ask you to dictate what people say. However to not condemn and ignore such extremism (you do have a track record mind) is from a ‘senior’ politician abominable, yet you have the cheek to to talk about people setting standards.
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DL
Any severe breach of the tenancy agreement could result in eviction. As for the tenancy review policy, this was brought in to address the issue of people with relatively high earnings occupying social need housing, We also have lots of decent hard working people on very low incomes on our waiting list who are waiting for houses, families who are in real social need who cannot come into States accommodation because a substantial amount of it is occupied by people who are clearly NOT in social need. What do you suggest we do with them? You also forget that States housing is heavily subsidised by the taxpayer for a reason and that is to enable those who need it most, to benefit from it. If we had not asked the high earners to move on, we would have to build significantly more homes at a huge cost to accommodate those in need. What my board is saying to those who have been asked to vacate these properties is this, “the States helped you at a time when you needed it by housing you in affordable state housing, now that you have much higher incomes we are asking you to vacate so we can help those who are in just as desperate as you were when you first came into States social rental housing”.
Bryn
Your first two points are well made and I will not attempt to defend the lack of legislation on either point, that does not make me hypocritical as I agree that we should have these protections for vulnerable people in place, however I cannot change anything on my own. As for your point on the “wealthy institutions” It is true successive governments have created and supported existing policies that help the wealth creators generate the huge amounts of money this island needs to support it public services and maintain its infrastructure and as a member of the previous administrations, I make no apology for this support, the island could not survive without the finance industry and we have to look after it or loose it.That means having government policies that recognise that fact.
As for the DCM, I certainly wasn’t being hypocritical, as I said from day one that I supported him. I did not change my mind when it came to the States and remained consistent in my view on the matter throughout. On your last point, I do have a track record for NOT condemning people who have extreme views; Although I am quite content to argue the point with them, I also do not follow every politically correct bigot who tries to shout down a different point of view, neither do I try and disguise my strongly held views and I have been elected 3 times in spite of them. As for setting standards, I do believe parents should set standards for their children and in that respect I am in a very long queue of people who believe that too.
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Deputy Jones,
To summarise, you agree that broader society has been utterly let down whilst ‘successive governments’ (that’s you by the way, elected 3 times!!) have ensured that wealthy and powerful institutions have been well catered for. Where has all this wealth gone? Not into the public services. Health, sewage, waste, transport, education……. By your own admittance, legislation in place today is not fit for purpose? Neither are public services. Your Government is letting the people down.
So you consistently supported a colleague who was an embarrassment and not fit for office?! Then you still have the cheek to come on here and spout about discipline and standards. That is where the hypocrisy lies Deputy Jones, not because you didn’t change your view on the subject but I suppose that fits in with your rather worrying ‘track record’, hardly a worthy quality and hardly puts you in a position to moralise.
If you cannot see the utter hypocrisy then we are in trouble, but I think we know that anyway.
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After all that has been said on the subject ,I would like to point out that Duputy Jones is the only person from the Goverment who has had the spunk to come on here and give his veiws .Nothing from the Police who are responsible for keeping law and order and arrest those cretins who this story all about.One man cannot do this job alone ,everyone must stick together to defeat the few who who choose to make the lives of others a misery.
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I agree that collectively the States have not done anything like enough to address some of these issues, we will hopefully in a month or so have the go ahead from the states for new mental health facilities. As for Education we have spent the thick end of 100 million on capital projects in the last 10 years, so I don’t agree their has been a lack of investment in education, yes there are more schools yet to do and they will be done when funds allow. Health has also had nearly 100 million spent on capital projects including a new 8 million pound nursing home over the same period (figures from T&R) the next phase of the hospital development is phase six so you can see the previous five phases have cost millions and improved our health services enormously. As for sewage and solid waste both of those projects will be coming to the states in the near future, both of them have income streams and both in my view will go a head. I don’t think that any of that could be described as “letting the people down”. As for your last comment the public and the states didn’t agree with you, telling a joke doesn’t make you unfit for office, it is a matter of opinion, after all when Barack Obama made the comment about looking like someone from the disabled Olympics when he was bowling, nobody said he was unfit for office, he apologized to those he offended and everyone moved on.
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Wow, this is a real can of worms. I can’t believe I am reading all this about my beloved island.
Like the Deputy reminded us, in the 20s and 30s there was real poverty and terrible deprivation, but youngsters didn’t go around behaving in the manner described here. Giving the excuse of bad behaviour as a result of a bad home life stinks – the parents are responsible for their offsprings’ behaviour and should be made to sort them out. Nobody should have to live under the constant threat of property being damaged and the area they live in being spoiled by a minority.
I do hope there will be a solution soon for the genuine people who live in the Bouet area. Round the little miscreants up and dump them on the Ecrehos and see how they like that!
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Deputy Jones….
Why do you not address my views I wonder?
Is it because you are trying to now find out what is evidence and how much you need to do your job properly….despite the fact you deal with this ‘each day’.
Get Home to introduce a breach of the peace law scaled from ‘gatherings of more than 3 people who fail to move on’, through to ‘failure to move on when asked’ and arrest them for a breach – soon sweep them up then.
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What happened to Borstal?
Stick them in that tower thing that is out at sea.
Do that Container thing and stick them on that land at the half way where they were gonna do the sewage works. Any family that houses anti-social teenagers is moved into the containers.
For those people that live there and dont like it……..the word head and sand comes to mind. It will take those involed an ice age to sort it out, so move and rent in the private sector.
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Darren
I have addressed your points, you just choose not to believe what I have said which of course is your right. However I am not going to repeat the posts again and you are free to do your own reserch on the facts concerning evidence for prosecution, I am sure George Le Page our Chief of police will confirm the points I have made if you write to him.
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Dave Jones – Darren isn’t talking about criminal convictions, he is asking you why, when there is any evidence of anti-social behaviour, you cannot evict people from their States Houses. This is not about police matters, or the criminal standard of evidence or burden of proof so referring people to George Le Page is unhelpful. Do the tenancy agreements allow for eviction only if criminal proceedings are successful? If so, then surely you need to look at redrafting the tenancy agreements!!! I find it sickening that my taxes are subsidising housing for people whose behaviour is causing others such distress, and even more disturbing that Housing seem so impotent.
Please could you clarify on what grounds a person can be evicted, and, if as you seem to imply, this is only if a person is convicted of a criminal offence relating to anti-social behaviour, when the tenancy agreements will be amended.
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Belinda
Whatever tenants are accused of, anti social behaviour, rent arrears, nuisance or intimidation or whatever, they have a right of appeal to the courts, It is only the courts that can evict and any eviction has to based on proof that the offences being offered up by the Housing department are supported by hard evidence, any tenants facing eviction will have legal representation and if they wish they can opt for a Royal Court hearing in front of the Jurats as opposed to a single Magistrate, So the idea that housing can just evict people on their say so is completely wrong.
The Tenancy agreements lay out clearly what the obligations of the tenants are and what obligations the housing department have towards our tenants and that includes the tenant’s legal rights of appeal. It is also extremely difficult to secure an eviction where there are children involved, children have human rights in their own name and you cannot inflict distress and hardship on the children because of the sins of the parents, the courts recognise the rights of the children in all cases.
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Deputy Jones – I echo Neil’s point and thank you for engaging with the local public on this forum.
If time permits, would you kindly respond to my post from April 22, 2009 at 7:36 pm
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i know that you are going to all start having a go at me but would it not be better all round for some kind of scheme/dropin centre run by the unemployed along with voulentiers (sorry about the spelling)(designed for the youth ie art work shops,video game gallery,music studio you know gardening even) i dont know. maybe if someone could go around and just sit and talk maybe find out why they need to be like this (boredom will be high on the list)just a thought ok ive said my piece
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Paul LP
“Having a police officer or two stationed down on the estate 24/7 as a deterrent until the planned redevelopments are completed”?
Your suggestion is one I will put to the Police, however I think their answer will be that they have regular patrols and a permanent beat officer already down at the estate. It is a priority certainly for the decent residents of the Bouet and the Police will have balance that with all the other calls on their resources. It is probably not the answer you were looking for but as I said I will ask the question.
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Mr Jones
As others have said thanks for engaging. On to war ;)
If I read you correctly, the tenancy agreements are effectivcely useless because they are nearly always challenged in court by a savvy tenant.
From this I will gather that Housing is weak and ineffective. Having spoken to a number of tenants over the last week or so – I like to do my homework – in the main are of the opinion that they can do what they want when they want as Housing rarely apply any of the clauses and in any event they will get advocates (free) and hold you in court. The impression I got was they were laughing at you as, again, much like the firefighters, they have government over a barrel.
I’m starting to form an opinion here in a number of areas and it runs along the lines of the following and can be applied to tenants, employees, the States and any activity where the SOG interfaces with people outside of ther world:
– Legal Advice to SOG is weak and they are generally unsure of their legal position in any matter
– SOG when confronted with legal action will capitulate due to the above
That’s quite worrying if true and I believe it to be in many areas. Housing, Hosuing Licences, Environment issues, Capitol projects etc.
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Deputy Jones – thank you for answering my point. I am however still bemused. In the light of these obvious problems, are there plans to redraft the current tenancy agreements? In the private sector people can be evicted for far less than it seems they can be in States housing. Of course children have human rights – but that is the case whether they are in the private rental sector, in States Housing, or in owner-occupied property.
What about those children (not to mention everyone else) whose lives are so badly affected by the behaviour of those who the Housing Department refuse to evict? Do they have legal recourse in the face of your inaction? How will you address this problem?
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