Civil servants’ pay deal stands despite deflation
Thursday 23rd April 2009, 2:30PM BST.
CIVIL SERVANTS are refusing to renegotiate their inflation busting pay deal, despite yesterday’s record-breaking deflation figure of -1.2% RPI.
An Association of Guernsey Civil Servants spokesman said the 3% rise they were guaranteed by the deal made in January was not up for discussion.
And Public Sector Remuneration Committee vice chairman Deputy Tony Spruce (pictured) echoed their opinion.
The AGCS released the following statement yesterday.
‘In 2009, civil servants will receive the second part of the two-year deal that was agreed between the AGCS [with the union Prospect] and the PSRC last year.’
‘Under the terms of that agreement, which took into account a wide range of factors and was concluded at a time when the Guernsey inflation rate was close to 6%, pay levels will be increased by 3% with effect from 1 May 2009.’
Deputy Spruce did not believe it was right to go back on a deal, even if the States was fighting to save money.
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I can’t recall the old Civil Service Board offering to increase salaries when inflation exceeded agreed rises.
Why should they expect the Civil Service Board to accomodate them?
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I don’t think the Public Servants should be asked to give up any pay deal they and the PSRC reached an agreement on. That would make a mockery of any future negociations if PSRC were to ask for a change now. What would be the point of long term negociated settlements if when the ‘chips are down’ an employer just backs out. No one would ever trust any decision. This whole article is purely a catchy headline.
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I agree Andy, it is a matter of integrity and trust between employer and employee.
If a deal has been agreed it should stand irrespective of economic changes – unless of course the employer is in such dire straits it simply cannot afford to pay – not true in this case. Go back on the deal now and any future agreement wouldn’t be worth the paper it was written on, trust in the PSRC would hit rock bottom and staff morale would disintegrate. There is precious little trust in the current States as it is without adding fuel to the fire.
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I am a little confused, who exactly is requesting the renegotiation? Or was it just a question posed to them by the Press?
Right or Wrong, a pay increase was agreed prior to yesterday’s figures being released, and should not be contested.
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This seems to be the Guernsey Press trying to stir things up.
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As Dean&George both recognise it is,once again,the Press or it’s editor using it’s spurious headlines to stir.It would be the same Press that would ask what right the civil servants have to ask for an increase if inflation had jumped to 10%.PATHETIC
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I agree, renaging on a pre-arranged pay deal isn’t right. If the States really wanted to save money they should try closing the lavish pension scheme to new entrants and manage the above average days lost through sick leave….if they got that sorted out the remaining civil servants could have inflation busting pay rises every year and they’d still save a shed load of cash!
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No problem with the 3% as long as they accept that the whole organisation needs to be run efficiently and effectively. So some of them will have to go or actually work for a living.
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I would agree with all those postings on this subject.
However: as a touch of honour and respect for the situation of today; A voluntary gesture wouldn’t pass unnoticed-
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I think they should all have a pay cut. The economy / world is a far different place now to when the original agreements were made. If we were in a situation of extreme inflation I’m sure they would be asking for renegotiations to take place.
Everyone jumps up and down for rises during times of inflation but you don’t hear people asking for cuts during times of delfation !!
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The settlement followed proper and freely accepted negotiation procedures. I often disagree with the result of these negotiations since, as a taxpayer, I’m on the paying end of the result but I don’t see how the question can be reopened. Now, the next round – for next year’s settlement – that’s a different matter. Supported by deflationary statistics, I hope those responsible for negotiating my end will be much more courageous than in the past.
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Its their ludicrous pensions that suck us dry.
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Jackal is right. If they take the 3% – and in fact even if they do make a gesture – this is absolutely the right time to take a root and branch look at the Civil Service because there is undoubtedly fat in there and it needs to be cut out for us to have a leaner service which provides value for money. We can’t afford not to look at it critically and closely
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I wonder what proportion of the States wage bill (or, put another way, our tax payments) is directed towards pension contributions to current employees and pension payments to retirees?
The old fashioned approach to pensions was based around the alleged fact that Public servants didn’t earn as much as those in the private sector and these pensions were needed to attract staff…in recent years their pay seems to have caught up and, in cases of middle and senior management significantly outstripped comparable roles in the private sector, so why the need to hang on to these legacy perks when they are no longer required to compete for staff and certainly no longer affordable?
Despite what my Mum says it seems that you really can have your cake and your ha’penny, depending on who you work for.
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Carts
It must be a significant figure and one that is probably higher than normal due to the shrinkage of the fund in the last year.
With a public sector wage bill of nearing £170 million it is easy to see what even an average 10% employer contribution would be.
If the Guernsey civil service has followed the bad habits of the UK local authorities re payments and pensions, then the figure could be even higher.
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John,
I suppose you will be taking a pay cut this year then?
I await you reply with interest.
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Interesting facts people should bear in mind with statistics like these
when the banks reduced there interest rate the consumer research published figure on the BBC that only 10% of people would benifit from the rate changes i.e people on tracker
the majority of people like me have fixed rate mortgage or tied to other rates
the RPI figure without the mortgage changes is actually at 3.3%
so as a civil servant my pay rise means a fall of 0.3%
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Sad the press have not campaigned to have teachers pay re-negotiated. The teachers had a very poor deal of less than 1%. Further nurses had 4% and the press not making any noise about that and even with 4% nurses pay remains poor with it not enough to attract staff with resultant bed closures.
The press are simply showing themselves to be anti civil service and irresponsible as usual
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The fact that the question was even asked and is now once again commented on clearly shows that the Guernsey people are unhappy with the costs of running the states as a whole. There is NO question that there are enormous savings to be had and if this means redundancies then so be it. The States needs to reduce its budgets and now or we will be in the same state as the UK is in. I am sure that in the name of fairness the civil servants taking their above RPI increases now will be happy to take the relevant decrease when next years salaries are reviewed.
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The GP really do seem to be anti-public services and civil servants in general. The question is why? Also are they not supposed to be impartial and not stirring up trouble. Since they were taken over their reporting has become so biased.
The local RPI is a bit of a misnomer anyway – with the cost of housing still very high and not a lot of people benefitting from the reduced interest rates.
Re: the civil service penisons how can the GP even contemplate anyone asking them to renegotiate a deal that was made last year?
If nurses pay is poor (we are currntly being told it is higher than UK) then that is up to their negotiators – but again i think they made a 2 year deal so it should stand.
If teachers settled for less there is probably a reason – they are not badly paid are they?
The real money saving things would be to stop paying people lots of extra benefits to come and work over here which makes double standards of pay when compared with local residents. Of course, that would not go down well and might well stop people wanting to come and work here. There is no easy answer at all to any of these problems is there? We have to look forward to reduced public services if the savings are to be made. Instead we seem to be spending thousands if not hundreds of thousands of pounds for UK consultants to tell us how to save money – bloney crazy – surely the politicians should be able to work this out with help from senior staff. These UK consultants are no doubt not doing this without a huge profit margin and who can be sure they are talking to the right people???
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Merlin has saved me a lot of typing.
Thom Ogier (& Nick Mann) seem to approach political journalism in the same way. Anybody with even a little knowledge about the subjects reported by them can see their work for what it is – out and out sensationalism.
Please up the ante GP and publish pieces that show understanding and constructive critisism.
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I would estimate that 75percent of Civil servants cost of living is more in line with the RPIX and therefore they are essentially .3percent down.
Merlin asks the question why are the GP so anti Public & Civil service. I think that the official line is that by applying pressure it helps to make the “States” more effective. The trouble is that this pressure is usually applied in the form of sensationalism. These sensational pieces show no real constructive critisism of the subjects in question and are really designed to whip up public sentiment. To achieve real pressure the GP should be reporting in a much more informative and constructive manner.
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One fact that is quite clear, the G.P. is only interested in making trouble to get headline grabbing stories! I am glad that I am not the only one to see this. Its one thing to let everyone have their say like in this forum but when you have access to the whole population the G.P. should stop giving comments and report the facts and let the people make their own mind up as to what is right or wrong. In this case a deal is a deal why should it even be brought up? I am sure that when it comes to next years talks the States will be looking to reclaim this extra money (anyone working for the states will be lucky to even get a pay rise the way things are going)
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As someone who worked in the Guernsey Civil Service & now residing in the UK, I suggest that at least the Civil Service does not engage in the creation of ‘non’ jobs so prevalent in the UK – especially in local councils.
There is a complete universe of such posts in the UK – from the ‘politically correct’ to those on the margins of lunacy.
I might add that I saw (and was one of) many civil servants who often worked unpaid in Sir Charles Frossard House at the weekends and even on Liberation Day.
In my experience, the vast majority of the Civil Service in Guernsey were hard working, diligent and well trained – but perhaps we should be more critical of the policies they were trying to implement – and that comes directly from the politicians in the States.
As for the Guernsey Press, I always found it more expedient to simply hang up whenever they tried to stir up a story.
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Good Post ‘Now in London’.
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Jackal – you appear to have evidence that some Civil Servants don’t do any work. Why don’t you use your next post on this thread to name and shame them. Alternatively, as I suspect is the case, you don’t have any such evidence and can be quiet until you do.
Paul – the same goes for you and your claim that “there is No question that there are enormous savings to be had”. Give us just ONE example. I’ll even let you refer to the FSR phase 1 report if you like.
Neither of you are allowed to start sentances with phrases like “everyone knows” and “it is a long held belief”. I won’t settle for less than actual names, evidence or cases.
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For a very, very long time now the GP has, day after day, week after week, been obsessed with denigrating the States of Guernsey generally and, in particular, its civil service. This began before the crunch and before zero 10 but in the last few months has become embarrasingly hysterical. The headlines and editorials have become increasingly offensive and incoherant, especially in the way the very soft target that is the civil service is painted as being a greedy, parasitic entity, somehow completely separate to the Guernsey tax payer, and wildly beyond control of their lilly -livered political masters. Trouble is civil servants and all the other public sector workers make up a large proportion of ordinary Guernsey based working people, paying, Mr editor, TAXES on their end-of-the-world 3% wage rise, as well as social insurance and buying up goods and services. Most Guernsey households contain or have close relatives that are government servants of one sort. The GP would divide and rule us all, and listening to unthinking phone-in ranters, are succeeding. The GP stance is that Guernsey lives beyond its means. There are certainly issues that the public sector should look at to make savings. But to undertsand the GP’s increasingly apoplectic reaction to decent people doing a decent job for everyone on this island, I suggest you look at the ownership and the ideology of the GP, and 90% of print media, which is to advance the free market and maximise corporate profit and the interests of the wealth owning classes. To do this, in the first instance, roll back the State in all its forms.
John.
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What services would the public like to do without which are currently provided by States personnel – and if there are suggestions what costs do you think they will carry and who will do the job. If there are ‘non-jobs’ out there in the public sector let’s hear about them.
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Good posts from Now in London & John. They seem to relay the facts with out any exaggeration.
What the GP are doing is happening in media the world over whereby stories often lead on the perceived public outcry instead of offering a factual summery of events that we can form an opinion on.
In effect they are writing for a minority of emotional, demonstrative and over-reactive people that unfortunately seem to have an influence on the news agenda. Stories that do generate public outcry then get incorperated into a factual summery of events.
It’s not clever and normal people see it for what it is – hype!
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Spot on john
In the UK most of the press has been rabidly denouncing the 50% tax on the rich. The commentators, editorials and headline writers have been frothing at the mouth about it. They purport to be the ‘voice of middle England’. Yet when ‘middle England’ was surveyed about it in two different excercises, there was a clear majority in favour of the tax rise. This shows how out of touch the media really is with popular opinion in cases such as these.
It is no wonder. The press is largely owned by tax dodging egocentric sociopaths.
Attacking the public sector is cowardice. All organisations can make efficiency savings, but to turn it into ‘the public sector is deficient’ is just lies.
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I said “The Press is largely owned by tax dodging egocentric sociopaths.”
That’s the media in the UK in general and not the Guernsey Press, as I have no idea of the structure behind it. Maybe I should…
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>>If there are ‘non-jobs’ out there in the public sector let’s hear about them.<<
Wonder around with your eyes open every Saturday and Sunday. or around 3.30 – 4pm on a week day. Do a count on how many States Works vehicles are hiding in car parks or doing, what must be ‘over time’.
That’s just the visible waste rubbed in our faces, so lord knows what goes on that we don’t see.
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Jackie seems to have noticed one of those curiosities that I’ve noticed too. Visit the out of the way car parks on almost any working day and in at least a third of them you will find a yellow van or lorry parked up complete with driver for no apparent reason. Such vehicles are less common in the busy car parks but can sometimes be seen even there. Of course, some must be parked for very good and proper reason but so many? I wonder.
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I have noticed some States Works vehicles ‘parked up’ as mentioned above. I don’t know what they are doing, perhaps they are on a coffee break or perhaps they are allowed to use the vehicles outside of work time??? Perhaps some politician could answer that for us. However, to be equal and fair, how many private builders, electricians etc vans do you see next to them. A lot of these private firms are still charging completely exorbitant prices for the most mundane of jobs.
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Cliff – do you not think the newspaper should represent the concerns and voice of the people as well as the ‘facts’ handed out by the States?
One of the advantages of the media is it can hold the Government to account. Whether or not the civil servants should have the same pay is the question here. I have sat in the public gallery with press journalists for many hours and read their journalism for many years. I suggest you challenge the reporters, i am sure they would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate their understanding.
dkong
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Jackie & Ted
Mon 27/4 4pm
It looked like a States Works convention at Vale Pond beach buffet.At least eight yellow vans. Quite difficult to hide that many.
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Merlin
Are you seriously justifying the abuse of taxpayers money and the culture of waste with that of the commercial sector?
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Why isn’t the Press questioning the bonuses and pay of highly paid finance workers??? Probably because no one exactly knows what is going on in the finance sector whereas the public sector is fairly transparent when it comes to pay.
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Merlin – why would the Press question private companies’ pay practices? I think even they know it’s beyond their remit. Public Services are fair game, though. As far as I’m concerned, the problem is not so much what the Press are reporting on, it’s the blatant slant and choice of topics they consistently choose/apply to their articles. For example, I’m trying to remember the last time the Press commended the States for something. Surely the States must have done something -anything- good in the last few months?
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>>States must have done something -anything- good in the last few months?<<
I don’t doubt they have and do. In the main the Public Services are very good – no doubt.
But why would a free press or anyone for that matter real out praise for what they are paid to do? The politicians do a wonderful job of rubbing their own back don’t they? ;)
The job of a free press, especially in our end of the world, is to act as a watchdog in the absence of Freedom of Information. Can you imagine a world where we relied entirely on government announcements? No thanks.
Anyway, back to the culture of waste.
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There may be good questions to ask about private sector people’s pay but, unless I’m a shareholder or customer of the private organisation or have some other contractual relationship with it, they’re entitled to tell me to mind my own business.
The reason for questioning the payments made to States employees is that every taxpayer in the island has to pay a share of this cost and we are entitled to have a say about it.
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Jackie
Please give some examples of how you can justify saying that the public sector workers are :
‘ abusing taxpayers money and the culture of waste with that of the commercial sector?’
The public sector does a lot of good, who do you think provides the infrastructure for health, education, policing, cleanliness, harbours, airports, taxes, etc etc.
The commercial sector has its share of greedy and shoddy workmen ripping off the public – where only the rich can afford to pay their exorbitant and over inflated prices. This island is going to implode on itself soon and we need some stability – at the moment with all the public sector bashing going on staff are looking to relocate elsewhere and once they leave the losers will be the taxpayer as services decrease or even more licence holders have to be employed at inflated salaries and allowances.
MT: I agree with you – lets have some politicians come on here and start telling the public just some of the good work being carried out by public servants – because i know there is lots.
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>>abusing taxpayers money and the culture of waste<<
Overtime ‘gifts’. Or is that ok in your world?
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I wonder if Ted is entirely right about the private sector being entitled to fix their pay so long as customers and shareholders are happy.
In practise, both customers and shareholders seem to have little interest or power to deal with pay abuses, both low pay at the bottom, and high pay at the top.
You would think that, within reason, companies should be free to settle pay rates without interference.
The critical phrase, however, is ‘within reason’.
It is an unfortunate truth that that many companies are run by people who are defective in the civilisation department.
It’s like the man who insists that he can do what he likes on his property, regardless of the smoke, noise, and other nuisances he causes his neighbours.
It’s like the brainless activities of the banks that led to the credit crunch.
It’s the difference between liberty and licence.
If people were always thoughtful we would not need laws.
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“But why would a free press or anyone for that matter real out praise for what they are paid to do? The politicians do a wonderful job of rubbing their own back don’t they? ;)”
Absolutely – I think the GP’s job is to “keep them honest” – not try to influence public perception with their garnish. In an ideal world, they’d simply state things as they are and let the public figure out how they feel about it. I always the editorial is where the opinion should be aired. (But of course, we’re no in an ideal world.)
“The job of a free press, especially in our end of the world, is to act as a watchdog in the absence of Freedom of Information. Can you imagine a world where we relied entirely on government announcements? No thanks.”
Agreed – and see above – but due to the consistent sniping and bias from the GP, how can we rely on their word?
As far as I am concerned, the style of reporting puts GP as a significant (albeit smaller) part of the bigger problem – if cultivate a society where people are congratulated when they do a good job and not just reprimanded when they screw up, perhaps people will feel more empowered to actually try harder and so on, rather than just doing the bare minimum to get by without causing a fuss. All it does at the moment is promote cynicism and apathy.
At the moment there’s far too much “damned if you do; damned if you don’t” and no real incentive to do well.
Maybe if that happened, people would more realistically confront the culture of waste and the world would be a happier place.
Either way, it’s all hopelessly optimistic. (Even I’ve lost faith that change can happen.)
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OK MT, we sort of agree.
Here’s the problem. I nthe absence of freedom of information, if not transparency and disclosure then if the media can only gather snippets of information from a closed book. Is it surprising that they get it wrong sometimes or over compensate on a story.
Underlying problem appears to be managed information from government, leaked information from government. If government was truly accessible, the ‘problem’ would disappear. As long as it continues to hide information from the public I’ll take a sometimes wrong press over government PR any day of the week. Wouldn’t you?
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>>At the moment there’s far too much “damned if you do; damned if you don’t” and no real incentive to do well.<<
I can understand that. But we are, again, back to the culture. I’m all for incentivising public servants based on performance and efficiencies. But not a superficial reward scheme. If say the foreman of x department saves 200k a year on spurious overtime, give him a 10k bonus.
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Jackie
I don’t have any facts or figures on the amount of overtime paid but i do know that senior civil servants i.e. any Senior Officer CANNOT be paid overtime – it just does not happen and is in their terms and conditions. Now some workmen, police, firemen, healthcare staff etc may well be paid overtime but I would suggest that is usually because they are covering for absent staff or the staff numbers have been cut.
I totally disagree that giving managers incentives to save overtime pay will work – it will save money in the short term but either the services they provide will be substandard or waiting times for services will decrease. All managers have budgets to work from and if they go above them surely they have to answer to the senior staff and/or politicians?
My son (who is 20) earns more than a member of my family who is a civil servant with many qualifications and a high level of responsibility. My son has A levels and is working towards an accountancy qualification but with his pay and excellent working conditions (which include paid study time) is astounded at the pay of his uncle. Why does his uncle stay in the civil service? Because, believe it or not, he actually has a huge sense of public responsibility and believes working for his island is important. Many staff are now looking elsewhere as they are fed up with the blame culture of this island – the losers will be the tax payers.
I am not saying that there are no savings to be made – I agree that there are bound to be some departments who could save money but according to my relative they are really a minute number. The costs of all these consultants reports is going to cost the island dearly and will escalate as the circle of blame turns around and around – and they are taking civil servants away from their jobs as they have to spend days writing reports for them and talking to them. In the end their reports will not be telling politicians anything they didn’t already know.
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Speaking as someone who is currently taking the press to task over its inaccurate and creative reporting I am pleased to see in this section of the forum that I am not alone, I believe the press is there to keep government honest as MT has said, I also think they have a duty to report when government gets it wrong. They also have a duty as the only daily newspaper on the island to get it right. However if you read the press daily and you have done so over the last few years you would think we live in a different island to its editor and reporters, where government has collapsed and we live in some third world country because we don’t have paid parking and we don’t have cabinet government. What has been reported on occasions is grossly irresponsible and causes unease amongst our population unnecessarily.
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>>What has been reported on occasions is grossly irresponsible and causes unease amongst our population unnecessarily. <<
Possibly Mr Jones but as stated previously and with the lack of transparency it’s hardly surprising if sometimes they over compensate on a story. I think even you would agree it is better to have what we have now than the broadsheet of 20 years ago which was Pravda-like in its journalistic output.
Merlin
It’s typical of politicians and those protecting their cosy positions to threaten loss of services at the first sniff of taxpayers asking for efficiencies. Questioning why States vehicles are parked up around the island and asking for overtime to be looked at doesn’t mean we have to sack 20 teachers, nurses and police. Wind it it, be less defensive or disengage from the debate. You are looking a bit silly.
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Jackie
You are sometimes so arrogant it spoils a good debate.
It is human nature to be defensive of a system which one believes to provide value for money and which is in danger of losing the very people who provide it.
I am not saying everything in the garden is rosy but it is not half as bad as portrayed by the media. Have you any proof of staff ‘protecting their cosy positions’ ? If so, let’s hear it!
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Jackie, I would except that if it was the case I cannot recall a single instance when Housing has withheld information from the press, on the contrary we would rather the press come and talked to us instead of printing what they think has happened or what they assume is going on. I have never refused them an interview or failed to answer any of their questions and when you talk about openness and transparency you have to ask why it is they get so excited when statements correcting their poorly researched reporting are made by those who are affected by them, they certainly did not appear to want openness and transparency when the spotlight was turned on the paper recently and its reporting of certain issues. As for the old broad sheet well at least it was locally owned and it was a paper you could trust, it reported good news as well as bad and in many ways was far more balanced in its approach than the tabloid version we have today.
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It is quite scarey really but i find myself agreeing with Dave Jones more and more ………..
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Dank – Of course the GP should represent the views of the people but this was a non-story designed to whip-up sentiment. I would welcome a press that challenges the States et al but my point is that the GP approach the issue in the same manner as the tabloids. I think their efforts would be much more effective if they took a “broadsheet” approach. This piece tried to create an outcry that would have formed the basis for subsequent related stories. As it happens even those that normally post contra CS have posted otherwise. Everyone makes mistakes and I think the GP would have to own up to this one.
Jackie – there may be waste in the public sector but there certainly is no “culture of waste” and to say so is an exaggeration. Also for the record, as most people don’t seem to know, public sector workers have a different set of working rules and conditions to civil servants and will not benefit from the 3% rise. I don’t condone any of these people that sit in their vans when they should be working (it is essentially stealing and should be dealt with severely). It should be pointed out in the interest of fairness that the overwhelming majority of public sector workers do an amazing job of looking after our beautiful island and in general are poorly remunerated for their efforts. I’m only guessing Jackie but you seem to be the sort of person that would want more than £8.96 an hour for climbing into a drain. There are people that have no real choice.
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Jackie:- “Wind it it, be less defensive or disengage from the debate.”
Who are you to tell people what they can say on this forum. Leave it to other readers to decide whether what someone is saying is valuable or not. Your comment has a whiff of intimidation about it.
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Ghengis (what a splendid name for someone who complains of intimidation!!!!)leave Jackie alone.
I suspect she is closer to the truth than some would wish to admit. I feel we shall be hearing many more instances of waste in the next few months.
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In defense of some of those parked in vans we see them when we are up and about, however many of these workers will have started work at 3 or 4 in the morning clearing up the mess around the island left from people the night before, so by the time you see them many have just finished their shift.
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