Airport disruption threat
Tuesday 5th May 2009, 2:30PM BST.
FIREFIGHTERS are warning of possible disruption at the airport when a temporary agreement relating to shift cover runs out on Saturday.
Pay talks remain deadlocked after more than nine months.
The men claim they have the backing of airport management and the Public Services Department, but that the Public Sector Remuneration Committee, the body which negotiates pay for the States, is blocking a settlement.
‘We are powerless to reach an agreement due to the PSRC and we offer sincere apologies for any disruption that might occur as a result of this farcical process,’ said a spokesman for the men.
‘We are piggies-in-the-middle and we feel the public need to be aware of that.’
Firefighters said the PSRC had given them 24 hours to accept its latest offer. But they said it was derogatory, a decrease in real terms, and meant staff would need to be on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
They said they were not claiming extra pay in real terms, but only to be recompensed for their continuing goodwill in working to what they say is an unworkable agreement in order to maintain minimum cover.
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Well no surprise there then and PSRC show their disdain for another set of States workers. I was at the brunt end of a deal they knew was wrong but failed to correct, and all the deputies on that panel at the time, some of whom advised they would support us – didn’t.
Can someone please forward me and others who read this site the name of a point of contact to put on my insurance form when as it appears to look like it will happen, mess up my carefully planned holiday. Come to think of it, why should I claim against my insurance, I can claim against the States, can’t I? Better still sue someone.
You have had long enough to sort the matter out, but then I suppose why should you, when you can mess up people’s travel plans!!!
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To the airport fire personel.
I’m sorry but I don’t quite understand the problem about ‘on call 24-7′.
As an ex police officer, i understand that as a part of my job, should the need arise I would be called upon to support my collegues at anytime. The same applies with the regular fire service and the ambulance service.
I’m sure there is more to this than is being reported but perhaps someone could clarify his point
Thanks.
GD.
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Can someone just sort it out, my Mrs is supposed to be going away this weekend and I was looking forward to a week of peace!
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Many people have been and are making comments and giving opinions on this dispute without really knowing the whole story. It seems that both sides are holding back information from us the suffering public. Can we not have it all out in the open so we can see who, if anyone, is really to blame for a dispute that has dragged on for far too long?
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This really is not on. They cannot keep on threatening disruption to travellers.
I have just spent the last 18 months saving up for a holiday, and if they make me miss my connecting flight, I shall be joining My Vlew in sending someone a bill !
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It’s simples really, they are trying to get their next £ 1000 free gift.
Oh I just forgot haven’t all parties gone to arbitration, if so I thought that no action would be taken on all sides pending the outcome.
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A quite unbelievable state of affairs.And it will go on and on.Why,if these people are so dissatisfied with their job,do they not work elsewhere?This is blackmail at its worst,and who is taking the can – yes – those who pay their wages.Only answer is to sack the lot and re- negotiate terms of employment,but who has the guts to do this?????If there is not a fair system of negotiation and arbitration then its time there was!
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My View,
Simple, PSRC committee or Al Brouard. As we have said all along we are not in dispute in any way shape or form this is acknowledged in writing after the last disruption. So in answer to GD, this is not a contractual obligation that was signed up to, otherwise why pay us sweetners to work it whilst they try to sort it out.
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Mr Remfrey
I suspect the sacking of all firefighters will simply put all the cards in their hands.
If there were to be prolonged negotiations over reemployment the airport will amost certainly be severely restricted or even closed.
Even if it were possible to recruit a few firefighters as replacemeents, it would take time for them to be trained. Result a closed or severely curtailed airport for some considerable time.
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I am due to come over on a regular family visit this weekend, as a self-employed sole-trader to whom should I send my bill for loss of earnings, and possible loss of contract, in the event of not being able to fly back to the UK mid week?
I don’t know who is to blame for this situation but I will say that I think it’s disgraceful…
Please get it sorted!
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Oddly enough I don’t think many people will be getting pay rises this year. Just be greatful you have a job because I’m sure there are many people out there who are eager for yours!
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Can anyone recommend the best course of action for those of us who need to travel on Saturday? We are booked on the red eye to Southampton and we have a pretty important engagement to attend there. The boat times are not convenient so we are really really hoping that our flight (or a flight!) will go. Does anyone know whether our flight will go? We have tried to phone the airport all day and no one is answering and we have phoned FlyBe Customer Call Centre who have not heard anything about this disruption. Panic!!! Any advice much appreciated, thanks.
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Just heard Ron Le Cras on Radio Guernsey. By shunning the opportunity to have the firefighters’ case judged by a totally independent arbitrator he has shown where all the blame for this terrible situation squarely lies.
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Al Brouard was on the radio this morning alleging that the economy is in a downturn and therefore staff should be glad they have a job! Are they assuming that there will be queues of people lining up to become firemen and that last years overtime bill should not be used as an example of the amount of money the airport management have had to pay out? The last recruit lasted 7 weeks according to the news! If they are having to negotiate with such pathetic stances no wonder they are getting nowhere fast! How much does it cost to train a fireman and how often do they have to update their training and are these factors taken into consideration by the PSRC when they decide on staffing levels?
Zed: Apparently the issue is that there are NOT lots of people out there who are happy to train as firemen!
From what i understand they are understaffed and not (and never have been) on strike. The problems come when firemen have worked their contracted hours/shifts but are then expected to continue working extra hours to cover shortfalls in staffing. They do not work shifts covering 24/7 like the other fire service (the airport is shut from 9pm to 5am) so if there is an emergency at night they also have to come in voluntarily to open the airport – and they will continue to cover in an emergency. What they won’t do from Sunday is continue to be available on their days off to cover training or sickness at extremely short notice.
I don’t want my holidays disrupted so i hope that the PSRC will just sort it out – I am considering booking the ferry although this will cost more. I have a neighbour who is a fireman and he said the feeling is that there is no point going to an industrial tribunal because they are not on strike and it is not about pay – it is about changing working practices and the tribunal doesn’t deal with that. Their managers at the airport agree with them but the people who have the power to change things (the PSRC) will not agree! If this is true it is very worrying as i can see this rumbling on for a long time. I can also see it might be a good time to buy shares in Condor!
I wish that the PSRC and Ron Le Cras would just come out and answer whether this is the issue. For goodness sake – surely a formal on-call arrangement will not cost the earth (and will certainly be cheaper than the amount of overtime they were paid last year)? Many States departments have formal on-call arrangements . Members of the PSRC should be around the table now and willing to work over the bank holiday to sort this out – and stay there until a compromise is reached – even if that means working all night and tomorrow! Perhaps then they would have some sympathy with the firemen.
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The firemen have been told by Ron Le Cras that an independent arbitrator will not be able to sort out their problems as they are not in a formal dispute – they are just refusing to work outside of their contracted hours (and they are not obliged to as there is no formal arrangement in place). They are asking for a change in working conditions i.e. formal arrangements for staff to be rostered to be on-call – rather than all of them expected to be available 24/7 and enough firemen to cover formal training.
Merlin: Thanks for the support – I know a lot of the boys are at breaking point. Who else would be prepared to do a job knowing that the likelihood of their days off being cancelled regularly was high? They are being cast as the bad guys in all this whereas the PSRC could have sorted this out a year ago – but refused! If there is an emergency flight needed for medical evacuation they always go – no matter what time of night. That is a team of firemen to open the airfield up – ensure the plane takes off – then they go home for maybe a few hours before they have to be at work doing their set rostered shift. Would a pilot be allowed to do that? How many flights go ‘tech’ because of a shortage of staff?
There have been reports written comparing the fire cover at the airports in similar jurisdictions: Jersey, Isle of Man etc and our firemen are certainly both under-established and underpaid when compared to these jurisdictions. Why isn’t the PSRC acting on this information – they have it!
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Two very good posts from Molly and Merlin.
Both posts put a number of facts that are usually ignored and well state the problem.
Perhaps the PRSC should make the effort to contact both posters. They may discover facts that have not previously been understood not appreciated.
Sadly this episode has a number of characteristics of the intransigent negotiating style of the old CSB.
I can fully understand why the PRSC want to go to independent resolve of the issue. It saves them the bother of reaching an appropriate settlement.
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Dear Stephen John
From what i have been told the PSRC should know full well all the things i have put in my post above – they just choose to ignore it. Of course what we don’t know is whether the politicians actually get told the full story – as Ron Le Cras said on the radio this morning he has never sat around the negotiating table with them. All the negotiating is done by a third party. What i would like to know is why the politicians don’t make it their business to get involved when things have got this bad? What are they elected for? When Al Brouard was elected i really though quite highly of him – now i am beginning to think that he is another waste of taxpayers money, not willing to take the bull by the horns and actually do something constructive.
There will be no winners and this sad state of affairs needs to be taken seriously by our politicians and real negotiation is undertaken – starting right now and working through the night if necessary in order to come to some sort of agreement. Guernsey cannot afford to have another spate of disrupted flights etc. The business community relies on good transport links and our tourism business (whatever is left of it) will also be affected – and last but not least those families who have been looking forwards to a holiday will have their plans disrupted. We, as a family, have decided to forego our week in Wales this summer and will instead be staying here (mainly for financial reasons, but the thought that our hard earned family holiday could be ruined was just too much to gamble on).
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…Oh no lets not miss our holidays!!!
i have a lvl exams which i need to be in the uk for..
give the firemen what they want
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This issue should have been a top priority to sort out at all costs. We live on an Island that relies on air travel in a big way, this is a massive disruption to many, many people!
www wrote “…Oh no lets not miss our holidays!!!”
I sense a hint of sarcasm there, many people will have worked very, very hard to pay for their holidays, indeed much harder than you appear to have worked towards your A-Level ‘English Grammar’ exam!
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“Ron Le Cras told the firemen”…….
Merlin’s information is out of date. Al Brouard stated today that Unite/Fireman had signed an agreement to go to arbitration. What R Le C tells the firemen is irrelevent. PSRC has a document that agrees to arbitration. End of story.
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jackie
Seems that Al B has not realised the deputy industrial relations offcier has refused to register the dispte claiming the problems are management matters.
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It is very easy to put the blame down to the firemen but before you do think about how you would cope with the following!
1/ It’s your day off, you haven’t spent much time with the family because of all the overtime you’ve been working. You’ve promised your son/daughter that you will spend the day with them down the beach or day trip to herm/Sark etc. The phone rings once again you are required at work. Day out cancelled family distraught.
2/ Because of the cost of living in Guernsey if you wish to buy a house both partners need to work, because your husband works shifts you can work around each other, Your at work so your husband has the children, He gets a call and needs to go to work. Result, (a) you need to leave work to look after the children (even if you are a nurse or other emergency worker. (b) You have an expensive child minder on call 24/7 just in case.
3/ Because of the cost of living in Guernsey and the shifts you work you take a part time job to help pay the bills, not possible if you are on call 24/7.
That’s just a few things to think about I could go on & on but the result would be the same, Firemen like everyone else want to be able to earn enough to live and have a life which is not possible the way things are at the moment.
The firemen at the airport are as qualified as firemen in Jersey, Isle of Man, Gatwick, Heathrow etc why is it that the States think they can pay them less?
The problem at the Airport is that over 20 firemen have left the service because they don’t like the job which in turn has caused more overtime for the few that have stayed on, Its pointless saying if they don’t like the job leave because that is what they have done! It takes about 4 months to replace a fireman and during this time all the shifts of the people leaving need to be covered by those remaining and I must add at a great expense to the tax payer in overtime and training costs. Solution PAY AND WORKING CONDITIONS.
The States will not ever reach a negotiated settlement with any states workers because they know other departments will be at the door fighting their corner. Staff shortages at the hospital, result (close a ward) Staff shortages at Frossard house, result put it to one side. Staff shortages at the airport result flights disrupted. Why come to a solution when you can pass it on to a third party and say it wasn’t us.
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We all have things that we don’t like about our work. If the firemen don’t like their jobs they should do like the rest of us do – find another job. They obviously have no care or thought for those around them who are suffering at this time and who need treatment in the UK. As they say what goes around comes around so maybe one day they will find out when it happens to them.
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Stephen John: Very good point. Has this actually gone to arbitration or not? It seems no one is very clear.
b hold: Good post. If 20 firemen have left then there are obviously big problems. Surely the PSRC know all about this and this begs the question as to why they continue to bury their heads in the sand. There is talk about the firemen holding the island to ransom but i have sympathy with them: surely the PSRC should be looking at what other airports pay their firemen and then offer similar pay and conditions? It is no good putting the blame at the door of the individual firemen – the States have to stand up and be counted.
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I cant understand why two thirds of the Airport Fireservice have left in the last few years! COST FOR EACH NEW FIREMAN TO BE TRAINED £20,000 X 23 = £460,000
Job Description
Must be between the age of 21 – 45
Hold a full cat C driving licence(if you dont have one we will give you six months to get one,But you will have to pay for this as we dont think we should.
Medically fit:
No eyesight problems
Not suffered with
asthma or Hay fever.
Must be able to pass a full fitness test and Medical.
Must have No criminal record as you are also required special constable
Must be willing to work the following! Nights. Early mornings, Bank holidays, weekends, and any other time we want you to work: 10 minutes notice will be given.
After successfully passing a two months intense basic training course at the fire station you will be required to go to the Fire collage in the U/K and pass a six week course. (And go back every four years to re-qualify) FAIL AND YOU COULD BE LOOKING FOR ANOTHER JOB.
Must be tea total as you will be on call 24/7
We will pay you a nice wage (not enough to buy a place to live but then again you won’t need one as you will be at work most of the time)
If you are married visits to the station can be arranged so your children can see their dad every now and then.
How many people qualify?
How many people will want the Job?
The people of Guernsey will soon find out the answers as I’m very sure that there will be lots more vacancies coming soon!
For all you people who blame the firemen for your Travel being disrupted, If it wasn’t for the good will over the past two years there would have been far more flights disrupted, The men cannot be blamed for the manpower problems this is down to management, Its not the men who pay the wages and employ the staff! At a cost of £20,000 to train each fireman you work it out who is wasting your tax money, Pay a decent wage and he or she wont leave and you save £20,000 training someone else!!! Its not rocket science
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Lets face it, there are two problems here. 1) The inability of the PSRC negotiators to actually do their job i.e. Negotiate and 2) the inability of the PSRC and Policy Council to realise that there is a recruitment and retention problem in public services, and how to deal with it. Until those 2 factors are sorted out there will forever be problems in ALL aspects of public service. Let’s hope the current consultation on changing the set-up with regards to PSRC and Policy Council brings about change. It doesn’t help when politicians blatantly lie in the media (or is it the media misreporting again!!)
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Nobby excellent points.
Jackie
Molly’s point made on 8 May shows clerly why there is no arbitration.
For arbitration to take plc e there has to be an industrial dispute. As Molly says “independent arbitrator will not be able to sort out their problems as they are not in a formal dispute – they are just refusing to work outside of their contracted hours (and they are not obliged to as there is no formal arrangement in place)”
It seems the firemen are not contractually required to provide cover. They do so voluntarily. If they do not provide cover outside of their contracted working hours they are not breaking any contract.
If they are not breaking any contract there is no grounds for going into dispute and eventually arbitration.
It might bother the hell out of passengers, but the ultimate responsibiltty for providing adequate cover is with the management. If management, at certain times rely on volunteers for cover, they cannot bellyache if the volunteeers don’t appear.
Time for the PRSC and its negotiaators to do the job they are paid and negotiate.
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b hold
Your points are largely irrelevent. You all knew this when you took the job. Here are some other people that cover for their colleagues. Police and nurses and the town firemen.
It still appears to many people that you are holding the island to ransom.
As for people leaving the jobs it’s reasonably typical of public servants to blame pay. In the private sector if there was that kind of turnover the shareholders would be hauling the directors over the coals. The likely outcome that the Director or HR people would lose their jobs.
We heard this ten years ago with the police. Wyeth and Torode blaming the finance industry for the loss of police.
Never have I ever seen manangement actually look at themselves or the types of people they employ. It’s always everyone elses fault.
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My Guernsey born wife is due to be travelling with my son (4months old) and daughter (2.5years old) to Gatwick on Wednesday after seeing family. I plan to meet them at Gatwick and take them to Heathrow where we will then be flying onto Singapore that evening, where we now live. All these posts about whose fault it is are nothing to do with me or my family, but if these firemen do strike, it will massively impact my family (and if these firemen have young children and have done long haul flying with kids, they might know what I mean). And I do know one of the fireman, and I tell you this: they see more of their kids than I do of mine and they work a lot less hours. Striking went out with the ark, whatever the dispute. In Singapore, they would be fired. Less of this “piggie in the middle” thing – if you strike, you become the aggressor, certainly to me and my family. Go sort your problems out with your bosses and let us carry on with our lives
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Oh Jackie, dear old Jackie. Please tell me is there any other way I can try and get it through to you. Yes we know the terms and conditions when we take the job but for the last time COMPULSORY OVERTIME WAS NOT A CONDITION OF THE JOB!!!!!! When I took the job overtime was not even mentioned.
By the way town firemen get paid to be on call and if for any reason nobody did cover their overtime the rest of the station wouldn’t shut down. They would still respond with whatever manpower they have plus they have the retainers to call on as well, but you probably know this anyway.
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Jackie, You appear to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say that the firemen are holding the island to ransom and then on the other you say that if this had happened in the private sector then management or HR would have been hauled over the coals! From what i know the airport management are aware of the problems and are supportive of moving things forwards …… but the PSRC (the people who hold the purse strings) are refusing! That is where the stale mate appears to be. Is this the sort of thing arbitration can implement??
As for your other example of other public sector workers covering overtime without any problems i.e. police, nurses etc you are wrong. When i worked at the PEH there was rarely any overtime available – we were expected to work with less staff. Now of course there are lots of agency nurses which has increased the wage bill. There are also lots of staff receiving on-call payments. Some come in regularly outside of their normal working hours i.e. pathology technicians and x-ray technicians – other senior managers are rarely required to come in but still get good on-call pay – perhaps they would like to forgo the pay and just remain on-call for the one or two times a year they are actually disturbed? I think the issue with the firemen is that there are a finite number of them and they are expected to cover shortages more and more – and now they have had enough. I don’t blame them. Would you like to be unofficially on-call and expected to be available 24/7 to cover absences or have your days off and/or holiday cancelled at short notice?
From the little i know of this current problem all that is needed is for the PSRC to either employ a few more firemen or implement a formal on-call system so that everyone would know when they would definitely have time off and who was on-call. As the post above by b hold states: it is not rocket science!
Public Sector bashing is becoming a popular sport – now i work in the private sector it is even more obvious how bad a deal the public sector have and how the majority of them are hard-working and provide an excellent service, whilst working under an umbrella of uncertainty about what the future holds for them.
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Arbitration is not the solution despite certain senior civil servants and politicians using this ‘buzz word’ – pity they dont seek advice from experts in the profession of dispute resolution before jumping on a band wagon thats going to cost a small fortune to resolve.
There are other alternatives more suitable than Arbitration.
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Here’s an interesting question to ask
How many airport fireman moonlight with another job ?. My understanding is that the answer would be “quite a few”. If that is the case then the argument about never seeing families etc rather goes out of the window.
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I have been watching this with interest. Here are some questions that the firemen and the management need to answer:
1. How many times have the AFS taken a cash payment to return to work?
2. Some wards at the PEH have a 60% turnover of staff what is their turnover of staff as a percentage?
3.Why are the airport management supportive, should they not be supportive of the PSRC?
4. All the other pay groups have settled are the AFS holding out for an above RPI settlement?
5.What are the actually asking for is it nearer a 10% deal than an 3% for example?
6. RPI is currently minus 1.2% are they asking for a an unrealistic sum during a time of deflation?
7. If they get a pay rise will the town brigade demand the same?
8.Are the airport fireman in charge only until the town brigade get there?
9. Does being an airport fireman mean you can have a second job?
10.Does the job ever get a bit boring and are you seeking tom be compensated for that?
And answer all of the questions, not just the ones that suit you.
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“There are other alternatives more suitable than Arbitration”
Pray tell us what these are exactly?
The unavoidable truth is that arbitration is now the only way forward. The firemen are immovable on their claim, the PSRC has gone as far as it can in its efforts to accommodate them. The only thing left is arbitration and what’s even more galling is that the firemen have signed up to it but appear now to be shirking their obligations.
If they are so confident of their case why not let an independent non local industrial expert assess all the facts?
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Mark
I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head here. By all accounts the airport firemen nearly all have at least one other job which they manage to carry out around their airport duties. I’d like to know just how many of them do NOT have a second or even a third job. This is very relevant information in the context of this whole dispute.
I’ve heard it suggested that they don’t want to have to sign up to something which gives them more money from their airport fireman jobs but which also restricts their earnings from a second or third job, making them worse off overall. That may or may not be true but it would be very helpful to know if it is indeed the case.
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TruthHertz:
1. They haven’t. They have taken two payments to provide temporary overtime cover above and beyond their contracted working hours as a show of goodwill. This was to give time for this to be sorted. It appears nine months is not long enough for the States to pull their finger out. They must have very long fingers.
2. From a station of 30 firefighters 12 people have resigned in the last two/three years. The last one to leave stayed for seven weeks before leaving as it wasn’t worth the money (I know I will probably be accused of making this bit up)
3. You will have to ask them but why shouldn’t they be supportive if they believe we are right. Just because they are mangement doesn’t mean they have to agree with other managers if they think they are being unreasonable.
4. Through the process of the last three months we thought it would be settled. We are not asking for a specific percentage. Also we are not holding out for settlement. It was not us who wanted to keep extending the whole process for six months then an additional three. We would be happy to revert back to our old agreement and do overtime on a voluntary basis but management don’t want this, they want the guarantee and unfortunately a change in working conditions like that will not be for free.
5. Again we are not asking for a specific percentage. There has been no increase in basic pay (only cost of living) for nineteen years and the job has changed a hell of a lot since then. It is not a card playing, snooker playing job as of twenty years ago despite what people think. With the introduction of competency based training a few years ago there isn’t time.
6. Whether what we are asking for is unrealistic or not is down to personal opinion. If we had asked for a bag of spuds and a Kitkat this would have been unrealistic to the PSRC. Also this all started before the States had the excuse of the credit crunch. I bet they couldn’t believe their luck when it came along and gave them a get out clause for any payrises.
7. Again you would have to ask them I can’t answer for them, we are separate.
8. As I understand it the Town Fire Brigade have the power to take over control at any incident although if it is aviation related they would generally let the Airport OIC retain control as this is our specialised area. If it was a large incident and buildings involved it would be divided into sectors each one having its own sector commander. Town Brigade would probably control the domestic side whilst we would control the aircraft crash site.
9. I don;t know the official take on this not having a second job myself but I assume we can as some people do and have not been told otherwise.
10. Yes it can get boring sometimes but money wouldn’t change this and seeking a payrise/on call payment is not a way of trying to compensate for this.
I hope have cleared some matters up as best I could. If you have any further questions we will try to answer them as best we can.
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MARK:
Out of the ‘quite a few’ that have second jobs do you know what hours they work, whether they have children, if they do are they at school. People can work their hours to suit themselves on their second jobs. Also if someone were to work a late shift overtime the earliest they can expect to finish is 9pm. If they work their second job they can finish when they want. Come home for tea with the family, bath the kids put them to bed etc. I know this isn’t the case for everyone but just because someone works hard doing two jobs to try and support their family doesn’t mean they neglect them or should be slated for it. There are many people on this island too lazy to work one job that should be facing criticism not those who are willing to work hard in one, two or even three jobs.
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Martyn,
I support the idea that the AFS signed up to an agreement which stated ‘Arbitration’ as a future option and that their argument is rather weak that RleC did not sign. The document was signed by those given authority at the time of the time agreement therefore in reality the agreement should stand.
There are two further issues to this;
1) the agreement simply states ‘the parties will go to Arbitration’ which is a poor attempt at a conditional clause. Say for example the parties agree to go to arbitration, they could spend the next six months or more arguing a) which arbitrator to appoint, b) which arbitration rules to follow, and c) which arbitration procedure, ‘documents only, small claims scheme, arbitration tribunal etc. If the AFS did agree to arbitrate, the argument has just started. An arbitration agreement must state the basics minimum or it will create more arguments.
My second point is that there appears to be no dispute to resolve. The AFS are employed and fulfilling their contract requirements and the problem occurs due to a limited resource issue which is not really the fault of the AFS. So if there is no contractual breach, there is no dispute, no dispute no arbitration.
You want to know the alternatives to Arbitration well let me say they can only negotiate their way around this problem. Why should they seek to enforce an award on the existing AFS to make them commit to long hours and secure the operation of the airport. Those who think that is the final solution are wrong, in simple terms what do you think will happen to the average fireman being forced to do something he does not agree with and does not want to carry out? answer = career change, i.e. more resource problems for the airport.
Both parties need to understand their interests and needs before resolving this problem. I’m aware they have been negotiating over several months with an independent from Industrial relations but that process does not appear to have been effective. Perhaps they need a different negotiation approach such as Mediation. A Mediator will explore all possible avenues to resolve this dispute and I’m certain he will be able to bring the parties into a mutual agreement that does not mean any sour grapes through an enforceable award.
The first step is to repair the relationships of each party, far too much ill faith and finger pointing at the moment. How will they agree to resolve the problem if they cant stand talking to each other?
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David
Whilst it might be interesting to some as to how many extra jobs the airport firefighters have, the point to remember that their off duty time is theirs to do what they like with.
Is the question a preliminary to suggesting that if firefighters have another job, it means they can be forced to work additional hours at the airport?
The firefighters have a contract which they seem to adhere to. Now the PRSC wants to alter the terms of the contract.
If a precedent is set that hours of work can be altered depending on what employees do with their spare time, it will be a very dangerous precedent.
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I wonder how many people, ‘if’ they were to meet the criteria of the job description would be prepared to work for a starting wage of £265.77 a week?
Mark – now you know why so many of them ‘moonlight’ on other jobs.
They do the job because they enjoy it, none of them think twice about dashing up to the airport in the middle of the night to open the airport for an emergency, even if they are back on shift at 05.30 the next day.
The training is very intense and thorough, including a 6 week training course in the UK. They are all highly trained to deal with any aviation emergency, accepting the fact that if there was ever a disaster, they would live with those disturbing images for the rest of their lives.
It is unfortunate that so many people are ignorant to the services provided Guernsey Fire and Rescue as they happily board their planes to jet off on their holidays. Blissfully unaware that firefighters have been on duty since the early hours checking the airport perimeter and runways and making everywhere safe.
I would happily put my life in the hands of the Guernsey Airport Fire and Rescue services, and I feel safe coming in to land at Guernsey Airport, knowing that my soul is being watched over.
Give the firefighters a break – they deserve to earn a decent wage. Is it any wonder the turnover is so high when the wages are so poor.
TruthHertz – with your list of ridiculous questions, the firefighters are asking for the importance of their work to be recognised and for a decent wage to take home.
Jackie – you are entitled to your opinions, but you don’t have all the facts. Try to collect some more information before you make any more judgements.
The basics of the pay dispute is simple, currently firefighters earn a basic wage with shift allowances to cover their work during unsociable hours such as nights, weekends and Bank Holidays. The PSRC want to change their pay to a salary that includes working unsociable hours and adding a on-call 24/7 clause, but for less pay than they earn now.
What none of you can see is the bigger picture. Corners are being cut all over the Bailiwick due to the current economic climate and the dreaded ‘Black Hole’.
However the cutting of this particular corner has the potential to bring travel to and from the airport to a standstill. You would think that the PSRC would have realised by now that paying the firefighters a decent wage will save money in the long term, but no, they are now proposing to bring in firefighters from the UK to provide the cover needed, paying for their flights and accommodation, wasting yet more money. Instead of ending this dispute with a decent salary.
We should all get behind the firefighters on this one and support them and their families.
PSRC – go and save your money somewhere else – This corner is not for cutting.
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I’m withdrawing from this as there is clearly more to this than meets the eye. Starting to waiver a bit on my initial stance. The power of discussion.
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Cheers for your reply Red
I’d draw your attention to your final line: “How will they agree to resolve the problem if they cant stand talking to each other?”
For me this is the crux of the matter and the very reason why the dispute must be settled by an impartial, independent, cool-headed, expert third party. ie an arbitrator. Once his or her binding decision has been implemented the two parties can begin the process of repairing their relationship. Even with mediation I don’t see how the current situation can be resolved. There’s too much acrimony.
As for getting the arbitration process underway, that’s what Guernsey’s industrial relations department is for. The detail can be worked out along the way but the first thing is just to get it started.
As for whether it’s a dispute or not, if this isn’t a dispute I’m a Jerseyman. It just needs to be recognised as such to enable arbitration to begin!
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Martyn the Jerseyman,
You said it not me. If you believe this is a dispute then explain why. You seem to have insider knowledge or just guessing?
Have you missed the point that an arbitration award will enforce statutory obligations. It could force the AFS to commit to longer working hours and put the employees in an a position they do not accept. If that happens, more employees may leave and the problem is excaberated. The result is you have an award and the problem still exists or even gets worse. Are you aware that the same dispute was resolved some four years ago by an arbitration award? the problem still exists so this alone shows arbitration is not suitable. why on earth are people on this band wagon when they have no idea about the processes and potential outcome?
You think the industrial relations officer will dictate to both parties which type of arbitration or which arbitrator will be appointed? I dont think the AFS are that soft do you? What authority does the industrial relations officer have? i think you have that wrong Mr Jerseyman!
You under estimate Mediation without knowing its full potential, what a pity you are missing this.
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Stephen
You miss my point entirely.
I have no problem at all with the airport firemen having a second or even a third job, PROVIDED that those second and third jobs do not prevent them from carrying out their primary job at the airport. Indeed it should be actively encouraged if managed properly. But if the terms of a pay rise for their primary job are such that it makes it harder for them to hold down second or third jobs, then its easy to see how such terms might be unacceptable to them. In that respect its a highly relevant question indeed because the answer to it may help in terms of perspective.
Eve refers above to a starting wage of £265.77 per week. That equates to under £14,000 per annum which is far too low (ditto nurses’ salaries). But if the same individual is earning an extra £20,000 a year from a second and/or third job then he would be earning £34,000 per annum which is far more acceptable. If the conditions of the fireman getting say an extra £3,000 are that he is unable to carry out the other jobs earning the extra £20,000 a year, then its almost irrelevant how much the fireman’s salary is increased by if it doesn’t compensate him for what he is having to give up from employment of self-employment elsewhere.
Yes – a decent wage for a dangerous job carrying lots of responsibility should be paid, but the economic impact of second and third jobs and the vital importance of ensuring that those other jobs don’t negatively affect the airport job must come into the equation.
How much sympathy would we have for their salary levels and time away from the families or the inconvenience of being on standby cover if we knew that they were earning an extra £30k or more from second and third jobs ? None of us appear to know the full facts, but it would certainly help us to form better-evaluated opinions if we did know those facts.
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EVE,
“Starting wage of £265.77″
How careless of you,I’m sure you must have accidently forgotten to add the shift allowance and consolidation pay to your calculations, not to mention the endless overtime thats available or the States “gold plated pension”!
£400+ a week would be nearer the truth.
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David
I did indeed miss your point completely.
Perhaps the reason for this failure is that you only spelt out the reasoning in your response. Sorry for the phsycic failure (LOL)
As the contractual terms stand there is no evidence at all that second, third or whatever jobs, impede their ability to do the jobs.
If the employer wants them to give up some of their own time. then they must negotiate acceptable terms.
The least desirable outcome is an enforced arbitration that alienates the employee and ends up with employees working strictly to contract.
I recall the CFE arbitration of 1999 that resulted in increased hours but in practice meant a loss of a lot of goodwill and many staff actually working less hours than they voluntarily worked prior to the arbitration.
That is the other side of the coin that needs bearing in mind by those who are so keen for arbitrations.
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Interesting to see that Jackie has withdrawn from this debate. She like a lot of the posters on this site that have been critical of the AFS are basing their arguements on what has been a series of irresponsibly reported articles that simply do not contain all the facts.
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From the free online dictionary:
dispute
Noun
1. a disagreement between workers and their employer
This is a dispute and a pretty obvious one at that. It now needs to be recognised as such so that it can be resolved once and for all. The only reason it isn’t an official one is because of the firemens’ clear intransigence. To say otherwise just won’t wash. To cloud the issue by claiming it’s not about the money is frankly ridiculous. To claim there are no suitable arbitrators out there is also laughable.
As an onlooker I haven’t seen or heard anything to suggest that the PSRC hasn’t done its level headed best, but this committee simply hasn’t got the tools for the job. Once this mess is sorted the States must set up a Public Sector Pay Review Body or bodies, similar to those in the UK, with binding awards and clear binding clauses to prevent potential disruption to essential services.
Martyn the Guernseyman
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So Airport Firefighters are not allowed/supposed to do other jobs on their days off when their wife is at work and the children are at school? So are they expected to sit at home all day (for no payment)watching daytime television and wait for their own personal mobile phone to ring, and jump because they are needed to provide cover to maintain category six at Guernsey Airport. I do know that they actually do jump when asked if they are able to do so during their days off, and that they jump even higher in the middle of the night (for no payment)when their is a medical emergency flight.
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“the endless overtime thats available”
I thought the whole point of the unrest was that they didn’t want to be forced into “the endless overtime thats available”. I don’t know how much the AFS are on, but by fact that they are represented by Ron Le Cras shows that they are PSEs, and their money is, in my opinion, not at all representative of the responsibilty that they take on.
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I know this is all a “complex” issue, and i’m not very well up on business matters etc, but the following occured to me.
The other week there was an article about “nose in parking” of planes at the airport, which the airport was going to pay for, quite a considerable sum i remember,( for a worthless project that no-one seems to need/want).Why can’t the funds for the above be diverted to pay for an extra couple of firefighters, ( on a temporary contract), thus ensuring cover for the forseeable future, giving time to source and provide work permits for permanent firefighters. Probably a no brainer, but worth a thought?
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Martyn or should that be ‘A Red Herring B’ I heard you on BBC Radio Guernsey today (13/05/09) approx 17.50. You have finally been discovered!
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From what i heard during the radio interview last night the airport firemen are not asking for a pay rise as such. They are saying they do not want to be on unofficial call 24/7 over and above their full time contracted hours. They want to be able to enjoy their rostered days off without the possibility of being called in to work extra hours at very short notice – and at the moment they are within their rights to refuse to work overtime (this does not equal a dispute).
I don’t think Ron Le Cras did them any favours as he did not really get his points across very well. What he should have done was bring some solutions to the table on what is required i.e . extra man power to cover annual leave/training etc and/or a formal on-call system to cover such eventualities so that staff know when they are likely to be called in. Saying the problems are not to do with money and they just want the PSRC to solve the problem is a bit of a red herring as obviously money comes into it. If the financial considerations were compared with the cost of either flight chaos and/or having to bring in UK firemen it would pale into insignificance. Al Brouard came on the radio and said that the credit crunch means there were more people available to work but that is a misnomer which unfortunately the States use time and time again. It is not going to be a credit crunch for ever and not everyone is suitable for training.
I don’t think if anyone has a second job it is anything to do with anyone else if they are able to do their rostered shifts – their time off is theirs do whatever they want – just like the rest of us.
The public sector is in a mess. Morale is at rock bottom with workers fearing for their jobs while english consultants are over here spending vast amounts of money writing reports which could have been written by current staff. Are they asking all staff their views or just cherry picking certain areas ad staff? This is Guernsey for goodness sake, a small island (the size of a small town in the UK) and yet we are allowing interference on a major scale. We should be able to sort out these problems without interference from outside agencies.Common sense has to prevail – and going by the interview last night there is such a huge problem with communication that they do seem to need a mediator but the question remains as to whether the current problems meet the criteria to bring in a mediator.
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Perhaps Deputy Al Brouad, who has plenty of time for a second job, will train as a firefighter.
This will give him and through him the PSRC, a real insight into the job.
Add to that a couple more politicians, and the problem of cover would be solved.
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