More ‘legal’ high users seek help since ban
Thursday 14th May 2009, 1:00PM BST.
Legal highs on sale earlier this year.
THE number of legal high users coming forward for help has increased since the announcement of a ban on commercial importation.
Drug and Alcohol Strategy coordinator Andrea Nightingale said users had exhibited side-effects from both herbal highs and pills and powders which act as a stimulant alternative.
She said the Community Drug and Alcohol Team had seen clients with progressive signs of addictive behaviour after having used Toot – a popular white powder.
This is being used as a stimulant similar to speed (amphetamine) and as much as four grams is being injected daily.
‘We are really concerned about the health of our clients as, with all these substances, the ingredients are unknown and when injecting there are real risks of infection, abscesses and blood clots,’ said a team spokesman.
‘The cost is significant too, as one gram can cost as much as £35 – with one user reporting a £100-a-day habit.’
He said one client told him: ‘The only road to my recovery is when the shops stop selling them’.
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Well I hope the shopkeepers who sold these substances are very proud of themselves!!
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‘The only road to my recovery is when the shops stop selling them’
Err no mate, ‘fraid not! Imagine if alcoholics had this attitude! What the hell made these people inject this stuff in the first place?
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I understood that initially the Police were very happy with the ‘legal high’ situation, as it meant a massive drop in the ‘illegal high’ stuff coming in. Presumably now that will change again.
Those users will now probably be looking for something to replace the legal high.
Maybe the question is why so many people feel they have to escape reality to such a big degree.
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I must say that I really doubt the claims made in this article. I am an occasional user of Toot, and it is nothing like speed.
Toot actually contains a legal compound called Mephedrone, which is freely available on the internet for a price that is a fraction of the cost of Toot in Guernsey. IF someone was injecting 4 grammes of Toot a day, it wouldn’t take them long to realise they could obtain a much cheaper alternative. Stopping selling Toot in Guernsey is not going to acheive anything.
MrsM: There’s nothing wrong with wanting to escape reality once in a while! Most of the population prefer to do this with alcohol, but not everyone is a fan of the effects of alcohol, and prefer a different sort of intoxication.
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Recreational drugs have been around since prehistoric times and there is always going to be a market for them regardless of what legislation we adopt.
From what I can gather these so called legal highs consist of a blend of untested herbal and synthetic chemicals. We simply don’t know what long term damage they may cause.
Given the choices open to us, I personally think there is a case for having a rethink about legalising marijuana – at least this is a “known quantity”. If it was legalised, the authorities could perhaps prohibit the importation of the stronger “skunk” varieties which are known to have damaging phsychological effects.
I personally believe the answer to this problem lies in education, not legislation but – given that we can never eradicate drugs completely – we could at least replace dangerous drugs with less dangerous ones.
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Nat – where did you find out the ingredients of ‘Toot’, I thought they didn’t publish them on the packets?
I believe the claims in the article, I personally know of people who for some reason, have been injecting these legal highs. Rather stupid.
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The legal highs available are causing problems – I know this from a professional perspective.
Youngsters are getting hooked on these drugs and it has caused some life altering effects for a few – psychosis is a life long disability. Do not think that these drugs are not doing you any harm because for some they are destroying their lives.
I think if people are injecting substances this is extremely worrying and shows how the drug culture is invading this island. It cannot be compared to alcohol in any shape or form.
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Dean, I like to do a bit of research before I ingest any chemicals and I came accross a Europol/EMCDDA report on the internet. It also contains vit c, creatine and caffeine (amongst others).
I’m sure people have tried injecting the legal highs, however I seriously doubt they have a 4g a day habit.
Molly- Toot is definitely not to be taken without any regard to the health risks, and I would suggest moderation especially as the effects of Mephedrone are not fully documented yet. It has been linked to the deaths of 2 clubbers in Europe. It is becoming increasingly popular in the UK as an alternative to MDMA (or ecstacy), so maybe we’ll know more in the future.
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In the same way that the active ingredient in Spice is JWH-018, designed to effect the same brain receptors as cannabinoids, but allegedly 5 times as powerful, there are no trials for the medical establishment to advise on risk.
Mephedrone is a relative to other illegal stimulants, the probable reason that it has not been as marketable is because it’s just not as ‘good’. I can believe a 4g habit. Anecdotal evidence suggests that for users switching from the illegals to achieve the ongoing high then repeated doses need taking.
I would suggest that before scare bandwagons get going that the evidence from someone who is prepared to needle grams worth of a substandard hit should not be taken as an everyday story, as Nat suggests, because that implies a certain desperate psychology.
I dispute Molly’s assertion that drug use cannot be equated with alcohol use. Alcohol is a drug abused by many, many more people than these substances. Most people, I dare say, would not repeat an experience on BZP (now banned) or meph (undoubtedly being looked at) because generally they make you feel like you’ve taken a horse worming course.
Cannabis should be legalised and regulated. Cheaper than prohibition, controllable toxicity and it eliminates the funding of criminality. The links between menatl health disorders (in adults) and usage is undefined and as such a lot less risky than booze.
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“It cannot be compared to alcohol in any shape or form”. I guess you take a drink your Molly ?
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Fact:- these people who are going to Drug Concern and claiming that they are injecting 4g Toot per day are doing this because they are then prescribed subutex and other very strong prescription drugs which they then sell at vast prices on the black market and continue using Toot. As usual the wool is being pulled over the do-gooders eyes! Have the authorities concerned spoken to the majority of legal high users and obtained a balanced opinion – I think not.
I agree with Dean, the responsibility of oneself lies with oneself.
Sorry Nat but Toot is not Mephedrone, not sure where you got that information.
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Yes I like a drink. However, i have never seen alcohol affect anyone like some of the legal highs have done in such a short space of time! I am not saying that alcohol cannot be abused and that it cannot cause problems: of course it can. However it does not tend to have long lasting problems after a short period. I have known some people to have serious psychological problems after one or two doses of so-called illegal highs. Alcohol tends to lead to problems with long term abuse.
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Alcohol causes enormous problems after using it for a short period of time – just ask the people who have been glassed by someone else who has been using alchohol for a few hours, just ask the wife who has been beaten after her husband has been in the pub for a few hours, just ask the family of a man who has been killed by a drink driver, ask the mother whose child is having their stomach pumped, the list goes on. Alcohol leads to immediate problems. It also gives severe headaches, dehydration, nausea and vomiting – why? because it is a poison and taken in large quantities it will kill you. Therefore it is up to the individual regulate it. But of course once you start drinking it seems good fun and some people continue to consume a ridiculous amount.
I have never known anyone who has had “serious psychological problems” after one or two doses of illegal or legal highs and I know many people who use them. Do you think there may be underlying problems to begin with? Maybe the “authorities” should be looking to tackle these instead.
Legal highs do no make people violent, in fact the opposite, strange that the police have made no press release supporting the ban on legal highs. Is this because they are finding people who are stoned much less aggressive and argumentative? I think maybe it is.
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Oh Molly,
Dig dig dig that hole a little deeper!
Do you realise just how much of a hypocrite you sound for saying that you like a drink, whilst simultaneously chastising legal highs and their users??
Try this example against your long term damage from short term usage theory.
Young man turns 18, wants to go to a club for his birthday accidently bangs into a very very drunk bloke who proceeds to ram a glass in his face.
This happens all the time in the UK.
As far as I know, there are no taxi rank fist fights, public urinating/vomiting, unprovoked assaults etc etc from most other “stimulants”
Alcohol is one of the nastiest of all stimulants, legal or otherwise. The only difference between it and the rest is one word “Tax”
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Anon, you beat me to it by 6 hours ;)
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To Anon, Toot does contain Mephedrone (as shown on various drug agency reports). Not sure where you are getting your info from….you aren’t confusing Meph with the heroin substitute Methedone are you?
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No one is saying alcohol doesn’t cause a lot more damage than legal highs. For one thing a lot more people use alcohol and in any case the effects are entirely different.
I also agree with the general point that there is a world of difference between someone doing themselves harm through substance abuse and doing someone else harm through violence.
But Molly does have a point – this doesn’t change the fact that some people (and I appreciate it is only some) can experience serious psychological damage from legal highs. Personally I think there is also a potential addiciton problem when, as reported, people start mainlining these drugs.
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Hi Nat, Toot does not contain Mephedrone and there is no agency drug reports on Toot. And no I am definitely not confusing Meph with Methedone or Methylone for that matter.
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Anon, i’d be interested as to what you think is contained in Toot (and Charge) then, and why the Europol reports are incorrect?
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Anon, apologies but on further review Toot actually contains Fluoromethcathinone and not Methylmethcathinone (Meph).
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sorry,
is the same as Bing’s.
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I hope the shopkeepers are proud of themselves? what for? Supplying a service that is sensibly used by the majority of its customers?
The people who are injecting are the heroin users, noone in their right mind would dream of doing such a thing.
As usual the idiot minority are spoiling things for the sensible majority
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Alcohol is a DRUG! Do they ban that? Alcohol is the worst drug around, causing addiction, violence and various health problems. Legal highs are not addictive in the slightest and I would love to see this person that claims to have a £100 a day habit…..can you go everyday without sleeping or eating? No you can’t because you would be dead before long. The only problem with legal highs is the idiots that misuse them without a second thought. Take too much or have an unstable mind and then blame it on the drug itself. If you want to ban a bad drug that causes problems then alcohol is the one to get rid of. The most evil drug around!
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C – firstly they haven’t banned legal highs, just the commercial import of them. Secondly, yes people can go for days without eating whilst doing these drugs, it is the same for speed and heroin.
I have said it on previous threads that I personally was not a fan of these shops, they make it too easy for poeple to fall into bad habits, addiction or not. Although their existence is not an excuse for drug abuse.
Glad we have cleared up the Toot/Mephedrone conundrum.
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I agree with you Dean, these shops make it far too easy for people to fall into bad habits. Although I am very pro choice and I also agree with Chris that Alcohol and Tobacco are the worst and the biggest killers of all. If we do our sums correctly 4g per day is a £140 habit, who earns that kind of money per day and is able to waste it. Perhaps they are stealing it therefore I feel Drug Concern should be reporting this to the Police not scaremongering to the public. Also the spokesman for drug concern is a customs officer, perhaps his time would be better spent looking into the 19,000 that was stolen from someone when customs had it in there possesion.
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“days without eating whilst doing these drugs” Perfect slimming option. Must try it
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Hi Nat, any chance of passing on the web page concerning toot as I cant find it,
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Interesting point of note: In studies on Cannabis (specifically the stronger varieties) they did find that a certain percentage of the population was susceptible to developing psycosis with regular use.
This percentage had identifiable mental traits which caused this susceptibility, for example an overactive imagination (making them more susceptible to extreme psycosis such as paranoid schizophrenia whereby their imagination is essentially misfunctioning and they cannot distinguish it from reality).
However in these studies psycosis was very broadly defined, such as “have you ever once heard a voice which wasn’t there”.
Also those who were identified with these susceptible traits did not necessarily even develope psycosis, they are simply in the group of people who are at risk.
The point is that those “at risk” can be identified. And interestingly in comparison to alcohol, the percentage of the population who are “at risk” of developing psycosis (which as outlined above can be of a very mild nature), is actually smaller than the percentage of the population who’s bodies are unable to process alcohol and so would find even one pint of beer fatal!
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c.
“The only problem with legal highs is the idiots that misuse them without a second thought. Take too much or have an unstable mind and then blame it on the drug itself”.
many of those you call idiots are just naive kids and will try stuff like this because they hear people like you saying it`s safe and not addictive, i know of one 14 year old who now has problems getting off this stuff, another who lost his job because he was stoned all day. the market for it is created by the same user`s who tell us it`s nothing to do with anybody else what they do and that they dont harm anybody, if it can be legally accessed by the genral public then it is everyones concern esp the parents of the youngsters.
we have drink and fags which are worse, is not a good reason to to go down the path of having some more harmful substances introduced into society,
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Anon, did you see my earlier post saying it was 4-fluoromethcathinone and not meph?
The web page was via the legalhighs forum. What I actually have is a document, so I don’t have an exact url. However I am presuming it can be found by going to http://www.emcdda.int
(Note the testing was for Charge, but it seems the two substances are the same)
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bcb
In my opinion legal highs should not be sold to minors, in the same way as tobacco and alcohol shouldn’t.
But if someone of a working age has lost his job because he’s stoned all day, then that’s his fault. Why should I suffer because he/she can’t be bothered to be responsible? We live in a society that always looks for someone else to blame, when in fact the individual needs to face up to responsibilities.
I’m not too stoned to work, I earn a very decent salary and occasionally I like to take Toot. I don’t steal to fund my habit, I don’t get violent when i’m high, so what harm is being caused?
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I don’t steal to fund my habit, I don’t get violent when i’m high, so what harm is being caused?
your part in creating the market for something that does harm people but i`m sure thats not your intent,
We live in a society that always looks for someone else to blame, when in fact the individual needs to face up to responsibilities.
try telling that to a child.
i`m a smoker and i think fags should be banned if thats what it takes to stop these kids taking up this habbit (sorry drug addiction) its a small sacrafice i`m prepared to make and it`ll do me good to.
if it was as simple as, just the responsible using it in the way you do then i would agree with you
high five :)
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bcb said “your part in creating the market for something that does harm people”
A flawed argument, most people are involved in creating markets for products that can do people harm.
“try telling that to a child.”
That sounds like something out of ‘Brass Eye’. Nat was making the point that these individuals are responsible themselves for their plight. A child is not allowed to purchase these products, as well as drive a car, buy alcohol or many of the other things they still manage to do sometimes.
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I want to be the first person here to warn you all about a horrible new drug know on the streets, as CAKE.
You cant have your CAKE and eat it!
Nice one Dean, I’d completely forgotten about Brass Eye :)
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Haha! to BrassEye
“Booze is not a drug! It’s a drink!”
Now, where’s Noel Edmonds when you need him to spread the word?
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What a load of rubbish, a 14 year old who cant get off the “stuff” what stuff and what the hell is he doing on it in the first place, and how has he/she got the money to buy it? As far as i am aware there is a very strict over 18 policy in these shops.
A kid who lost his job because he was stoned all day, what are the parents of these kids doing???My father would have booted my arse so hard i would have been far too scared to laze around all day “getting stoned”.
But again C you have highlighted the “idiots” who are very much in the minority. Its not alright to smoke tobacco under 18 let alone legal highs so what makes them think its safe, i dont see that being advertised anywhere. All I see is a substance that is not illegal that consenting adults can partake in if they wish without getting a criminal record. People like Nat who are hard working adults have a right to choose how their spend their free time. She is not creating a market, that is already there, she is merely excersing her FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
PS Nat I cant connect to that site info that you gave
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Anon
What a load of rubbish, a 14 year old who cant get off the “stuff” what stuff and what the hell is he doing on it in the first place, and how has he/she got the money to buy it? As far as i am aware there is a very strict over 18 policy in these shops.
Why is it rubbish when all i was doing was stating somthing i happen to know is true? but ofcourse i would expexct that kind of response from a responsible user.
so what makes them think its safe, i dont see that being advertised anywhere.
Try looking at some of the web sites that sell it and tell you how good it makes you feel. Do they do the same with fags ? no i dont think so.
she is merely excersing her FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
You should have added and to hell with kids who have now been introduced to the wonderful world of drugs.
A kid who lost his job because he was stoned all day, what are the parents of these kids doing???My father would have booted my arse so hard i would have been far too scared to laze around all day “getting stoned”.
A great way to help with a drug problem “kick his arse” also i never said he was lazing around all day.
my point is that it is a fact that this drug will and does cause problems, “but why should i care when there not mine” when freedom of choice is paramount.
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Sorry of course he was not lazing around all day getting stoned, he got the sack for nothing!!!
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Annon
i have no objection to adults using this stuff if thats what they choose to do, but it`s not that simple is it?
you ask what the hell are they doing taking this stuff.
well have you looked at the websites selling it because i have? and reading the effects of this stuff it gives anyone the impression that it`s the best thing since sliced bread.
there is no legal age for users either it`s just the shops wont sell it to minors.
He got the sack for being stonned thats all, you assume that it makes you lazy when some of the advertising actually says it can give you more energy, maybe he got sacked for working to hard :)
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bcb – you seem to be basing all of your arguments on one or two personal experiences. I still don’t get your point, are you saying we should ban everything that is deemed ‘bad’ to stop kids seeking them out?
Your friend who was fired from work must take responsibility, this stuff is not heroin, (s)he made a choice to smoke all day and has to deal with the consequences, and it will probably be a valuable lesson.
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Dean.
bcb – you seem to be basing all of your arguments on one or two personal experiences.
no i can assure you i know of many kids that are on this garbage, i was just giving an example.
I still don’t get your point,
Dont understand what you dont get,
its simple really
addictive drugs on sale
advertised in a way that they would think there harmless and make them feel like a million dollars, (try looking at the websites)
no law against them taking them, what right minded kid wouldn`t want to try them :).
are you saying we should ban everything that is deemed ‘bad’ to stop kids seeking them out?
no i`m not saying that.
are you saying we should have these drugs on sale, advertised in the way they are and no legal regulations to prevent youngsters getting hold of them so easily ? (yes i know some will still get hold of them)
can i assume your more concerned about the freedom of choice argument than you are about doing somthing about this stuff getting in the wrong hands,
but of course we have plenty of bad things so lets just have some more,,where does it end ?
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Bcb, I can assure you that there is nothing physically addictive in Toot.
Also, i’ve not seen any adverts for Toot. Please could you point me in the right direction of these adverts.
I don’t advocate that legal highs should be sold to under 18′s, just like tobacco and alochol. But we shouldn’t ban them just because some do end up in the possession of children. If that was the case, then maybe we should be banning alcohol?
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Nat
Also, i’ve not seen any adverts for Toot. Please could you point me in the right direction of these adverts.
No you`ll have to do your own research.
so you found one thats not advertised (was i referring to just toot?)what about the many others that are?
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bcb – I would also be interested to see these adverts if you could point me in the right direction, and don’t tell me to do my own research, I want to know what you are looking at.
I agree with Nat, these things are not physically addictive, people are getting hooked as they are taking them all of the time. We should address the issue of why they would want to do this to excess all of the time.
My friend works with many of these people and says the people they see are the same ones over and over, whether it be alcohol, heroin or legal highs.
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Bcb, there are no adverts for the actual legal highs that are being sold in Guernsey. End of story.
If you wish to make statements, you must be prepared to show the evidence.
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Good god i cant believe you cant find them advertised anywhere.
just type in legal highs on google
or look in the shop window in the vauvert shop window.
I agree with Nat, these things are not physically addictive, people are getting hooked as they are taking them all of the time. We should address the issue of why they would want to do this to excess all of the time.
maybe there taking them all the time because there hooked? and thats the issue that needs addressing.
End of story.
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BcB, there is no advertising in the shop window, bar the products pinned to a display. Nothing that (and I quote) “advertises in a way that they would think there harmless and make them feel like a million dollars”.
Google Toot and tell me what drugs stuff you come up with? (I can give you a hint, the answer is nothing!)
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Nat
BcB, there is no advertising in the shop window, bar the products pinned to a display. Nothing that (and I quote) “advertises in a way that they would think there harmless and make them feel like a million dollars”.
so that great big poster of spice in the window was not advertising? i must be deluded then. i never said the ad in the window said it made you feel like a million dollars as i was referring to the web sites in this case and i stand by that.
Google Toot and tell me what drugs stuff you come up with? (I can give you a hint, the answer is nothing!)
Why on earth do you keep going on about toot ? as if it all about just one product which i cant see from anything i said it was. i was referring to legal highs in general, i never heard of that stuff till you mentioned it.
Lets look at it this way, i suggest till there is some strict legal requirements in place it should at least be banned, because i care about who is getting hold of this stuff.
what do you suggest we do? maybe nothing? because freedom of choice is the better argument and it seems to me the only one you can think of.
p.s. none of this is personal and i respect your choice to use it but i`m looking at the bigger picture.
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Bcb, I suggest that only over-18′s are allowed to purchase any of the products. I also care that children should not be able to get hold of the products and if it is found that they are sold to minors then the penalties should be very strong. If it can be proved that products were willfully sold to minors, then I believe a custodial sentence would be appropriate. This would ensure the shop checked ID’s properly!
I refer to Toot as it is the product described in the article as seemingly having major addicts.
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bcb – I have not been past the ‘legal high’ shop in a while but I do seem to remember a poster for Spice. I do not however feel this is that different to pubs/shops displaying advertising for alcohol, only on a lesser scale.
Also,you are bound to find promoted listings if you “type in legal highs on google”, same as all the other listings. If a person types this in it is clear they already have an interest in these things.
The fact is some young people will always seek out drinking or smoking or drugs or whatever. We all know that banning poeple from things is not usually a deterrent, it just criminalises them.
“p.s. none of this is personal and i respect your choice to use it but i`m looking at the bigger picture.”
I don’t feel you are looking at the bigger picture, but providing a knee jerk reaction based on a couple of GP stories or a personal experience.
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Dean
first you say you would like me to point you to where this was advertised, then when i do you do just what i expected and point to other sustances, whats that got to do with it? your just comparing things. also are the products advertised on the net not classed as advertising ?
The fact is some young people will always seek out drinking or smoking or drugs or whatever. We all know that banning poeple from things is not usually a deterrent, it just criminalises them.
i agree but at least most responsible people will try to warn against these things, much of the advertising for legal highs does not really say much about the negative side.
I don’t feel you are looking at the bigger picture, but providing a knee jerk reaction based on a couple of GP stories or a personal experience
I can assure you it had nothing to do with the press because i was aware of it long before it was in print.
i also very much agree with nat on her last post
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