End of an error
Saturday 6th June 2009, 2:30PM BST.
Channel TV cameraman Andy Will films the demolition of the Grand Bouet estate. Excavators pulled down the pre-fabricated buildings from 1970 which were meant to last 20 years. (Picture by Adrian MIller, 0784901)
THE first steps towards a crime-free Bouet were made yesterday as work to bulldoze the troubled estate began.
Excavators moved in to mark the end of an era at the States housing development, a notorious hotspot for social problems and unrest since it was built in 1971.
Now Guernsey police say the design of the replacement estate should help ensure the mistakes of the past do not happen again.
Chief Inspector of Operations, Ruari Hardy, said they had been working with the developers and Guernsey Housing Association to help design crime out of the new estate, with improved and safer layouts.
Describing it as ‘an exciting new development with a high concentration of people,’ he explained that it utilised a number of ways to cut crime and improve a sense of community.
‘We will ensure the access is designed so people who don’t have to be there won’t be there. It will also be well-lit to help reduce anti-social behaviour.’
The island’s crime prevention officer, Andy Goodall, is currently in training to become a new ‘architectural liaison officer’, added Insp. Hardy. ‘He will get involved with these kind of developments, and help design them so they won’t face criminal issues.’
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Is the new Eastate accross the road from the old one where the shopper is is it that really big thing with houses
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how does taking away the housing stop the trouble? Is it the houses that are causing it, or is it the people living in them?? Now you’ve taken down the houses are we sending all the people that used to live there to Jersey?
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It is good that it is being levelled, but I am afraid that human behaviour is rather more complex than suggested by this report.
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I can not see how the actual housing was the issue. People who want to do bad will do bad regardless.
Why are people with the purse strings not creative, why did the housing get torn down, what happended to the fix it and mend attitude. New does not mean better, either for the pocket or for the environment.
Extra lighting and adjustments to the layout of the existing housing stock could probably have been created plus at the same time giving it an upgrade.
Until people stop thinking they can get/do anything for nothing things wont change.
Bored, repressed and poorly educated is not going to change just because the front door has.
Unless investment is made in the people in 5 years the papers will be reporting the same old same old.
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ds has a point – although I agree with the long overdue redevelopment of the estate, despite all the flowery rhetoric you can’t “design crime out of an estate” without dealing with the people committing the offences – it’s people that commit crime not properties.
I accept that providing better building design, security and lighting may help the situation however let’s be realistic – it will take more than that to stop criminal behaviour.
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ds is dead right its ok building new houses but where are the people that made the trouble going in the new houses?? or where?
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There was never anything wrong with the housing at the Bouet. It’s down to the people that occupy them. I’m sure there are some decent people that by some unfortunate turn of fate have had no other option but to reside there. But let’s face it, it’s a States run ghetto which has, in general, been filled with lifes losers, shirkers, scroungers, and all mostly of low intellect and ability. In society, if you put all of these people into one area you are asking for generations of trouble. It’s the States own fault. I would suggest the States buy or build individual homes dotted all over the island rather than waste money on building another ghetto. These people can then be housed within good communities of decent folk who by example may have a chance of showing them the errors of their ways. We need to give them back some pride. Who was it that said ‘with — without, after all it’s what the fightings all about’.
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In one of his many outburst years ago did not Tom Ogier of the IDC describe the Bouet development as the “Birmingham Barracks” at the same time refering to the “sewage tide of immigration”?
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I agree with the general view of the other posters here. The old estate needed replacing because the housing was no longer adequate. You have to ask the question what is being done about the actual offenders. Will they just transfer their anti society behaviour to another estate?
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Whether the removal of the buildings will cause the people to behave better or not, one thing I can definitely say: I`m jolly glad those dreadful eyesores are gone.
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With regards to the quote of Ruari Hardy Chief Inspector of Operations, with a high concentration of people . The problem is just that, in the uk the majority of problem areas are in estates that have a high concentration of people be it new build or existing the problems associated do not go away. The states need to look at ways of reducing the gap from those in poverty/low incomes to the high income earners. helping those within these areas be it through grant assisted education for people of all ages,primarily thoes who have left school with no qualifications. we need to invest in the people not buildings that wont solve the problem.
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Well some of you are not quite right I’m afraid. You can, to an extent ‘build crime out’ of an area. Some simple concepts are:
: not designing an area that has ‘rat runs’
: not creating concealed alley ways and parking areas.
So, although it is true that you can to an extend ‘build crime out’ it is by no means the only answer.
There is no doubt that the design of the old Bouet did nothing to reduce crime by design.
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Why does deputy Jones say that they do not want another over-populated sprawling housing estate to replace the current one and yet they are not reducing the population density, rather increasing it?
He were also very cagy about what they intend to build in phases two and three, it seems ludicrous to me that they are knocking down and building on one small part of the development without knowing (or admitting) what their plans are for the rest of the land.
Judging by the ridiculous size of the ‘feature’ building that they propose to build on the corner of the estate (near the phone box) I wonder if they are planning some large industrial buildings (in phases 2 and 3) and are using this first development to increase the height of the surrounding buildings giving them an ‘in’ to build even larger ones.
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As the Bouet is demolished, I note there is a considerable pile of rubble in Mont Arrivee, where states houses used to stand.
As there is no refugee camp anywhere else on the island, do we actually need to rebuild any of these places?
Where are the people?
Have we sent them to Jersey, as DS asks?
Where is the burning need for social housing?
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It seems to me that if the States are ‘L’ bent on destroying an housing estate because of the criminal element,
Can we now expect to see the States meeting places being destroyed; for in those places a different kind of Crime toward the Islanders is created every day.
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How much is the cost to the working person.
A family on benifits living in states housing will have their rent reduced somtimes to as litle as £25 .
The same family living in a housing association on benifits will pay the full amount.
So it costs us 3 or 4 times as much in rent to keep a family on benifits in housing association property . (NO MONEY LEFT FOR PENSIONS)
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The main reason for demolishing this estate is because the homes on it fall well below modern standards and should have been replaced 20 years ago. The new homes will be modern eco build with high levels of insulation and solar technology for heating water. These two things alone will help enormously with utility bills, reducing them considerably for the tenants. I think you can design new housing developments that help prevent crime and anti social behaviour, just simple things like sight lines and lighting where residents living in different parts of the development can see all areas of the estate, this helps prevent people gathering in dark areas out of sight. It must always be remembered that a substantial amount of the trouble on this particular estate has often come from people who do not live there but who come on to the estate from elsewhere. I might also add that problems are not just confined to social housing estates. The Housing board believe that we would benefit from smaller housing developments on three different sites, rather than build larger estates with all their inherent problems. Moving on to rents, the GHA and States housing rents are roughly on a par with each other, certainly the rebate scheme is the same for both States Housing and the GHA. As for density there are 55 homes being built on this site which is not over development and they will be of mixed tenancy just as you would find on any private estate across the island. Going back to crime, this is of course is a police matter and housing is often blamed for doing nothing about it, which is not true, we liaise very closely with the police and where it can be proved that a problem has been caused by a particular tenant or their children then we will take steps to end these problems but as I say the rest is up to the police.
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GHA rent rebates. mr Jones must be misinformed there, as i lived in a GHA flat for over 2 years, , there was no rent rebate offered to me or my partner,either when i was working or not working. i still have my old lease for the flat just for reference sake . there is mention of rebates but not everyone is entitled to them,also GHA are supposed to be affordable housing,so why do they put the rents up twice a year ? luckily the g.s.s payed my rent while i was unemployed,
as for knocking it all down, yep a very good idea, there will still be trouble down there for sure..i hope i am proved wrong though.
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Rover, it is only offered to tenants that qualify for it, you clearly didn’t apply and you may have been entitled to one,or your total income made you ineligable to claim I dont know. It is exactly the same scheme as housings and is based on income.
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Thanks for reply Dave. we did inquire about it at the GHA office and was told we wouldn’t qualify for it. we did apply at frossard house and was also told we would not get it. that was when me and my partner were on invalidity benefit..in the lease it also stated that not all tenants would be eligible..even so i think that this should be made more clear to anyone thinking of going into GHA accommodation.
regards,R.
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@Dave Jones, I find it interesting that you again refused to comment on the oversized nature of the planned development. You are demolishing 54 houses with gardens and replacing them with 55 FLATS, 3 story ones with no gardens. You also failed to answer my question as regards the plans for phases 2 and 3, more houses or a large industrial development?
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I am still sitting on the fence as to whether i think it is a good idea to mix elderly residents on the ground floors of flats with first time buyers or families on the upper levels.
The retired want peace and quiet – the young want somewhere to play – and the newly married/first time buyers will no doubt wish to entertain friends and play music etc. It would be different in houses but not in flats. However well insulated the noise will reverberate and that will lead to problems.
I remember my granny being moved out of a house into one of the new flats when they were first built in the place de cerises at the Bouet. She hated it – concrete jungle, no garden, small communal areas to hang out washing etc ……. and that was over 30 years ago! There was no sense of community back then so lets hope that this new build does try and emulate some of the better housing which has been built over the last 10 years or so.
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For a man that is clueless as to the needs and more important the WISHES of Guernsey people.
He loves seeing his name in print, by the length of his little odds and ends-
I suggest he changes his job and become a comedian, he has the traits to go on stage, either to act (which he does very well) or to scrub it.
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DT
Don’t get so excited I haven’t refused to answer anything; I can only do this when time allows.
First of all we don’t believe the new development is oversized, it is a different sort of development than was previously there. Firstly, I would like to correct a misunderstanding about who will be living at the new development at the old Bouet site. Contrary to what has been reported in the press and on the radio, Rue Clouet is exclusively for older people and couples without children. We are not mixing pensioners and families. Both the Department and the Guernsey Housing Association recognise that the mix of old and young does not always work, and because there is currently a demand for smaller properties we are able to create estates designed for tenants without children. The next GHA development to come on stream, Hougue a la Perre,(the old bus garage) is mainly for single people and couples without children; and the one after that, in Victoria Avenue, will be exclusively for older people. Ultimately, the Department’s responsibility is to provide good quality housing and to ensure that it is allocated to people most in need. We work closely with architects and agencies like the Police to ensure that the new estates are secure by design. Where possible we do limit the mix of tenants, recognising for example that many older people prefer to live in quiet communities without children. But you have to remember that in real life people aren’t separated into household types. On the average street you’ll find a mix of young and old, single people and couples. And so there will be some estates – family estates – where there is a healthy mix of tenants. We are not short of family homes ,we just have to many of them under occupied, which is why we are asking the GHA to construct smaller properties for tenants to move to, freeing up the 3&4 bedroom homes for families.
As to what will happen with phase 2 & 3 The housing board believe that this land may be better suited for industrial use rather than building another huge housing complex the size of the old Bouet estate and that we would be better building replacement housing on two or three smaller sites elsewhere. We are still discussing with Environment and the Land use planning group where those sites might be, that is all I can say on the subject for the time being.
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Eric
I read your contributions to this blog and can find little in them other than abuse, I believe the last 3 housing boards have made huge advances in the provision of social housing in Guernsey and that has been recognised not only within the States but by many people in the community. I also believe I have driven that progress relentlessly and we are now seeing the results of that drive, with more new and refurbished social housing now available than there has been in the last 30 years.
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Re Eric
Tell him Dave Jones !
I must say that Eric does appear to have a very much ‘glass half empty’ outlook on almost all subjects
Cheer up a bit Eric. You must be able to find at least one or two happy quotes from the 1500′s to lighten up your postings from time to time
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Changing the Bouet to Clouet did make me chuckle. Some antisocial problems need a more concerted effort than rebranding. A little like renaming the unemmployed as ‘job seekers’ or manic depressives bi-polar.
An excercise in modern condescension and amuses the heck out of me. Good day :)
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If there is any abuse in this precious Island of ours it comes from the like of you Jones. Your country stole it over a 1000 years ago by your false King John.
We are The rightful ones belonging to Normandie;
You come over to our Island mess it about and think we should go down and beg you to stay; well some of us have the urge to see you gone , then we as Islanders can live as we wish. So we may sound old fashioned, but we do not push ourselves where we are not wanted.
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It was the French King Philippe who “stole” Normandy from King John, who also happened to be Duke at the time, rather less than 1000 years ago actually. What on Earth has this got to do with social housing?
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Really Eric, you give traditional Guerns / Sarnians a bad name by stooping to such comments.
99% of Guernseymen would not want to be part of France (in case it passed you by, Normandie ceased to be a pseudo-autonomous region in 1204). We may not want to be English, but that doesn’t mean that we belong to France in our hearts. We can learn from history but it can blinker us too. Time to look the present and move on.
Dave Jones may have English heritage, but he has proved his desire to work for the betterment of Guernsey. You may not agree with his decisions but I dare say he had dealt with the complex and conflicting issues of his role better than many others could or would, wherever their grandparents are from.
(On a point of history, my understanding is that King John did not steal the Islands from Normandy – he was the Duke of Normandy and owned them as of right. The French King simply forgot to take them off him when he claimed mainland Normandy in 1204. Later, the landlords elected to stay with the English Crown rather than to adopt the French king – with whom they had no connection at all since it was the Duke of Normandy (a now defunct position) that they previously owed allegience to. Given that the royalty in those days were all basically French (including the famous Richard the Lionheart – supposed hero of England) it is a bit artificial to say that the “English” stole the Islands)
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Good Morning Eric.
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Oneoffcomment
The name Cluoet was the name of the family who owned the original field where this estate was built, it is also about not stigmatizing people by their address or the area they live and with the best will in the world the Bouet has had a certain undeserved reputation for a number of years. Changing the name together with a brand new housing complex and the tenant mix will I believe make a huge difference to the area.
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You all talk of 1204;
Have you no idea about how Normandie became known as such?
Then read the sagas of the Snorre Sturlason, an Icelandic scribe.
A Viking by the name of Rolf the walker. In 889 AD, having been banished from Norway sailed and after many adventures landed in the place we know as Normandie. He settled and controlled the area, and made many fine laws some of which are still practised.
He was baptised in 912AD and it was then a Danish Viking Rollo took charge of Normandie.
It had never been part of France as we know it today, for it was a Man by the name of Francks that took over and called that Country France after his name.
It is quite clear that the English and French didn’t get on at all.
Read that history and you’ll realise that England like their cousins are a warlike nation.
As for saying we do not like the French is a myth made up by those Lords and landowners who decided to side with England.
As like the present times, the ordinary people are never consulted; Rich and the farcial titles of Lords and Barons and knights are laughable.
As for Richard Lionheart, he hardly ever lived in England, and although King, he married another countries lassie.
If you think it is not nice to dislike England think about how they the now know English came to be in England; one is apt to forget the true peoples of Britain,, The Brits.
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Eric
What part of ‘Guernsey is NOT part of the UK’ do you not understand? Guernsey is NOT English. Sources: Jack Straw; Lord Willy Bachs; UK Ministry of Justice.
For the record King John actually lost all the French domains and he offered the Channel Islands special privileges to stay under English rule so he could save some face. Guernsey had a choice of going or staying. The island elected to stay because of the rewards offered so quit whingeing about it. It was Guernsey’s choice. If the island regrets it now you’re free to go with France. Bon voyage!!
While we’re on the subject why do you insist on flying OUR flag. The Union Jack is OUR flag not yours! The Isle of Man is not English either. It is a Crown Dependency and has exactly the same status as Guernsey which the reason why they DON’T fly OUR flag. They fly their own. Guernsey has a flag so fly it. Fly the tri-colour. Fly whatever but don’t fly the Union Jack!
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Well said TL! I too get sick of people who haven’t got the guts to run for office themselves, continually throwing rocks at those who do, regardless of their successes. I believe what Dave has done with the Housing Association is brilliant and has been hugely successful. Eric should sit down and shut up, or at least post constructive comments!
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“Good Morning Eric.” Don’t say that, Dave! Everyone knows that ‘morning’ is a vile English invention designed to oppress the Guernsey Purebloods, so how can it possible be ‘good’?
In fact in 1436 (Wednesday May 12th, teatime), a famous quote wasn’t recorded for posterity by an English Lord
“We will replace the Guernsey Pre-Lunch Period with an English Morning, starting tomorrow at 5am. Note that all Guernseypersons not waking up to strict adherence to English Morning-dom will be forever associated with tax dodging drug running money launderers.”
So that’s why.
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Eric
England is named (probably) after the Angles – basically Germanic settlers.
France is named (probably) after the Franks – also basically Germanic settlers.
Normandy takes its name from the Northmen – as you say, Vikings.
If you want to serve the glorious French Republic there is a boat in the morning.
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No, I am sorry BJ I shouldn’t encourage him, may I also thank Martini for his comments although I haven’t made all this progress alone and I am blessed with some very talented and gifted staff together with some hardworking board members from this current board to the previous one. I have also had the full backing of the previous two assemblies and now it would seem this one, the Corporate Housing Programme is a team effort and I thank all those inside government and the hundreds like Martini outside in the community for their support. I think States Members set themselves up to be knocked down, it just goes with the job. I only really get upset when they attack my family (who are all local born and bred Eric) but I don’t mind engaging with the public as it is useful to get all shades of opinion, and it is after all their money my department is spending.
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Eric – I think that the Rolf and the Rollo that you mention are one and the same. Rollo and his vikings invaded the lands that became known as Normandie and signed the Treaty of St Clair sur Epte in 911 with Charles Le Simple, in which Rollo was given control of Normandie and in which he agreed to become a Christian (hence the baptism of 912 that you mention).
Unfortunately I cannot glean the point that you are making with the rest of your post. You dispute that we dislike the French, but no-one has said that we do. However there is a big difference between having affection for the French and the English (which there is), and wanting to be part of either of those countries (which very few do).
Being a proud Guernseyman does not mean that you have to insult someone who has spent years here trying to improve the lot of this community – of all social and economic levels – merely on the basis that they came from England.
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The Bouet Estate was once the Seat of Power for all the Guernsey Kings and Queens of History. It’s well known that Dave Jones invented the guillotine and overthrew the ruling monarchy in 1790, after the ghost of Marie Antoinette appeared in a dream and told him how great being beheaded was for the complexion.
(She also told him that UKIP would need a Guernsey representative just in case we weren’t insular enough already – fancy all those anti EU MEPs abusing the expenses whilst shaking their fists – so very noble.)
So instead of thinking that the Bouetians are all losers, why not regard them with their rightful Royal heritage and they deserve homes that are not made out of cancer-rock and cardboard.
I know this is all true because it’s here in front of me in black and white.
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Sorry TL
But you are wrong: I will not go into a long history lesson, but Ganger Rolf (Rolf the walker) was a Viking from Norway
Rollo was Danish; he had been one who was instrumental in making the Southern Counties of England pay the “Dane Geld)
Anyway at the time before Rolf took Normandie, it was known as Valland, after so many Welsh ‘Valer’ lived there. It can go on forever, but I desist
After all it appears to be a one sided thing here:
You all accuse me of being abusive, with out even knowing why, and more to the point believing that the English are all saints: I talk not of the ordinary man in the street but over so called upper class.
You accused me of insulting, yet in the same breath tell me I can join the French, fly the tricolour, take a boat. and other items.
My talk about the Jones feller is because Guernsey people are on the shelf whilst English live in profusion of work that Guernsey people could do.
How ever if you think what you say is reasonable then that’s fine by me; You wouldn’t know because like many people you have been brainwashed in to believing that Robin Hood did fight the wicked Normans. after 1066
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Eric, the Rolf/Rollo question has been the subject of historical debate for centuries and so I am not sure how you can be so sure that the version that you put forward is definitely right. The version that I was taught (in France by the way) is that Rollo was originally Norwegian but was banished to Denmark, from where he led a group of vikings to invade what we now know as Normandy.
Anyway, I am sure that the former inhabitants of the Bouet are looking forward to their improved homes more than they are to the resolution of this question!
Not sure how you can say that Guernsey people are on the shelf – unemployment is low and there are plenty of Guernsey people employed by businesses driven by people with experience and training gained in England or elsewhere (be they English or returned Guernseymen)
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ARTHUR:
How do you do, good lady? I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who’s castle is that?
WOMAN:
King of the who?
ARTHUR:
The Britons.
WOMAN:
Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR:
Well, we all are. We are all Britons, and I am your king.
WOMAN:
I didn’t know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS:
You’re fooling yourself. We’re living in a dictatorship: a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes–
WOMAN:
Oh, there you go bringing class into it again.
DENNIS:
That’s what it’s all about. If only people would hear of–
ARTHUR:
Please! Please, good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN:
No one lives there.
ARTHUR:
Then who is your lord?
WOMAN:
We don’t have a lord.
ARTHUR:
What?
DENNIS:
I told you. We’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week,…
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We live in a funny old world:
Let me explain that if I may;
I roused up quite a lot of indignant people about my wanting Guernsey to be Guernsey; To me and I dare say to many others I thought it a rightful request; but oh dear me no.
The honey was far too sweet to given up just like that:
What I do find quite strange is the fact that when the Scottish party wanted total break from England very little was said, or from the Irish ; who then wrongly in my opinion took up a murderess crusade
S.Africa fought Apartheid question, quite rightly. So if you go around the world and see all those countries who asked for mearly the same as I have done and people listened.
Now that showed courage; and people listened:
‘But here in Guernsey; where I have done my best to inform and even show pictures of old Guernsey; Suddenly I am sent to Coventry; Yes the forums (exzcept the Press) have as yet not barred me, but are like a graveyard at midnight-Quite silent.
My conclusion (for the last time) I must have struck some nerves,
Was It so wrong to ask that we were better treated? that the rich could liven in luxury and pay so little in taxes?
And now they talk of a cut in future pay rises;
Who and where are the villains:
Me because I spoke out and feared not to do so; or those who wish me to remain silent.
As I mentioned it’s a funny old world.
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@DaveJones
You say that you plan on putting older/infirm people in the ground floor flats and young couples on the upper floors, no children. My question is how are you planning on stopping the young couples from breeding? It has been stated that a third of the flats will be partial ownership, will these be the old people or “the families”, oops sorry “young couples”.
How can you justify knocking down houses with gardens and replacing them with flats? People need outdoor space not high rise buildings, it is just denser housing to get more bang for your buck.
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