Incinerator: ‘too costly, outdated and damaging’
Thursday 18th June 2009, 2:30PM BST.
A CAMPAIGN has been launched against the proposed multi-million pound mass-burn incinerator at Longue Hougue.
Environmentalists have come together to oppose the £80m. plant, saying it is too expensive, is based on out-of-date technology and would damage the island’s recycling ethos.
A leading bank executive emerged yesterday as an unexpected supporter of the movement against Public Services’s controversial proposals.
Julian Winser, chief executive of a major bank, described the PSD plans for the solid-waste plant as ‘fundamentally flawed in a numerous ways’ and calculated that it would actually cost the island a total of £219m.
He is supporting prominent businessman Rupert Dorey and the G-Can environmental group who expressed fears that States members will vote the plans through simply because they are fatigued by the topic and of seeing unsuitable plans.
Mr Winser outlined four main problems with the intended system.
‘Mass burning is an old technology,’ he said.
‘Globally, everyone else is doing their best to use alternative technologies, cheaper or more sustainable options, before they resort to mass burning.’
Mr Winser said he had asked Suez how many other versions of the same plant were being built globally and they told him that despite there being many past builds still in operation, Guernsey’s was the only new one.
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Ok, well that’s all well and good but instead of just saying that won’t work, or to expensive, or its out dated how about coming up with a viable solution. I mean so much effort goes into proving every solution is wrong. It’s been 15 years in the going no where stage. And..
There are no more holes in the ground
There is no current solution
We can only recycle about 50% of our rubbish (and that’s darn good going)
We are running out of space and time
So can someone please come up with a magical solution – With the following guidelines (recent points in Press articles) that’s cheap, cost effective, environmental friendly, easy to maintain, can’t be seen, can be built in 2 years and will last 50.
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Yes, let’s step back from this madness. The interim answer must be to go back to landfill at a new site, much better managed than the one at Mont Cuet, combined with the purchase of a micro incinerator and a redoubling of our recycling efforts backed up by the introduction of a ‘pay as you throw’ charging policy.
Landfill is not ideal, it is polluting but no more polluting than these old 20th century waste incinerators dressed up as ‘energy from waste’ plants.
At the end of the day it’s a simple toss up between burning our rubbish or burying it and when you go to the Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace websites you find that, if anything, landfill comes out as slightly the better option in terms of environmental impact/climate change.
As far as costs are concerned, though, a return to limited landfill is not going to subject future generations to borrowing £200 million plus. Let’s stick with the devil we know.
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Hopefuuly people will realise what this PFI type proposal is and the cost to the island over the next 25 years.
Weeks ago I posted in reply to Jaguar Paws Snr
“I fear your figure of £175 million might be a tad on the low side.
Last week at different times we were told the build cost would be £101 million.
Then we were told the gate charges would be about £4 million a year.
Total over 25 years £201 million.
Any ones guess as to what the final cost will be”
Good on Mr Winser for taking up the cause.
I fear that even £219 million will be on the low side.
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Can someone please tell me the credentials of these so-called experts?
I have seen the qualifications of those working for the States PHD’s in the relevant fields etc.
Can someone please tell me what Mr Bank man, Rupert Dorey, Rosie Dorey and the like’s are? Apart from being very vocal and a self-belief that they are always right.
Should I listen to a person who has an interest in medicine or a doctor?
When they show me their expertise in building waste plants I will listen to them.
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Fred – a cheap, low impact alternative? Someone on another post mentioned that Jersey has already committed itself to its incinerator, so lets send our excess rubbish to them.
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All I can say is well saaid Fred and Truthsayer Martin I would like to know where they can bury our rubbish.
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One of the fundamental problems I have with the whole project is that good ‘ole Bernie is leading it. His arrogant, cavalier attitude towards the public simply beggars belief. This is another prestigeous project that he will be able to nail his name to – far more important to him than a simple, cheap, inconspicuous solution! As for the likes of Rosie Dorey and co, who invited them to the party?
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Fred,
There have been numerous suggestions. I believe the peoples panel that was formed also came up with some but were very quickly closed down by BF when their suggestions weren’t mass burn. Check the G-Can website for more (quite compelling)suggestions and background on the whole issue.
Truthsayer,
are these the same PHD’s who seem to loose or find ~£50m in Guernsey’s accounts dependant on the phase of the moon, allow a pay dispute to lock down the primary transport to / from the Island and many years ago ignore warnings from one of their own (qualified) employees about the dangers of underground fires in Mont Chouet ? …. He now advises and lectures at EU and worldwide summits.
A small burner, landfill (ronez site has about 80years capacity i understand)and kerbside recycling could all be achieved for far far less money whilst enabling the Island to adopt future technologies rather than be teathered to an MBI (Mass Burn Incinerator).
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It really is about time we sorted this problem out! The facts are that this is a very good proposal for Guernsey – it looks good, it will almost eliminate landfill, it has the flexibility to deal with change – we should be ashamed of ourselves if we fail to close the debate and get on with this solution. These plants are being used all over the world, and more are beign built each year – check the facts – it is just plain wrong to say this technology is outdated. If the alternatives are so much better and cheaper why is it that solutions like this are being adopted all over Europe – recycling AND energy recovery like this is the future not the past.
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right on jamie!i agree, there are alternatives out there,bf wouldn’t accept any waste solution that he can’t stick his name on,i rthink like martini that he wants a legacy.burning seems old hat from what others say who know more than me, also,like others, i simply don’t trust bf to make a compost site in his garden let alone master our waste solution.him being in the position he is just goes to show that democracy just does not work!the rukles are being altered to allow more leachate in the mont cuet than should be, the rules were altered to allow a change of use at longue hougue but the rules couldn’t be changed re the tenders for the project as it wouldn’t have suited bf.
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There is a solution out there or rather a mix of solutions that would negate the need to borrow/plunder £80million rising to £200million plus for dirty, ugly incinerator.
I don’t like the idea of landfill but we do have the holes in the ground and, as an interim measure, this would be far less costly and far less ugly.
We could buy a couple of micro incinerators off the shelf.
We could investigate properly the idea of shipping some of our waste to Jersey when their new incinerator (highly over capacity for their needs) comes on stream.
There are several new technologies just around the corner but these have been ruled out by PSD because they and their leading civil servants and advisers are ideologically wedded to the mass burn solution. They have even resorted to stacking their very dubious ‘waste arising’ figures to deliberately exclude tenders from suppliers of smaller, greener solutions.
As Jamie says, the very compelling alternatives to mass burn are outlined on the G-CAN website. See link below.
http://www.g-can.net/articles/detail.aspx?articleid=169
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Just throw in to the sea like your sewage,or even better still export it to Alderney…
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I too agree with martini about flouquet, this man couldn`t care less about what anyone thinks of him or his ideas he`s proved that already.
we need to get rid of him and then maybe have somone there who will actually do whats best for guernsey.
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The truth is we have a vocal minority who believe in their own self-worth.
There were meetings to object to these plans and how many turned up to object? I think we all know it was well below 0.5% of the population and it was the usual people who claim to speak for us but actually only speak for themselves and their extremist beliefs.
So what about the other 99%? Well we saw a few on Channel TV and the general consensus was not bad at all and about time.
It’s about time G-can and the like learned that they speak for themselves and not the rest of us. How many of the green candidates got elected my friends? Point proved! Truth said!
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I agree that this option will become outdated and tying to 25 years and building a monster of a facility is not the way to go on an island. Seeing as Jersey have over sized theirs then Guernsey could consider short term transport of waste there whilst working on the long term strategy for dealing with waste effectively and sutainably.
Guernsey does not have the land or money to be short sighted in progressing a quick fix solution, which itself will have enormous problems.
Until people realise that their lifes can not be so greedy on resources, waste globally is just going to keep growing in the developed economies.
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I will add, why bother having children because the general populous sure as hell are not bothered about what the future holds for them. Otherwise there would be more change occuring and solutions like this being proposed would not even have made it through first pass.
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They don’t get elected because the majority of people are too lazy to change and see that how they live is costing the environment. They don’t want to get involved as it might mean making change to their coseted resource demanding lifestyle. Hey why not you only get to live so many years so why not be greedy and not look to make change!
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Truthsayer….
In Guernsey, we do not have to bow to all pronouncements made by ‘our beautiful leader’. We are allowed to speak out against policies that we don’t agree with. It’s called a ‘Democracy’. We do not absolve our selves of all responsibility for decisions made on our behalf once we have elected our Government. It is up to each and everyone of us to check that they are doing what is in the best interest of the community, and if we think that they are not, then to speak out about what we think is right or wrong. If we do not do that, then a democracy does not work properly. Sadly, in Guernsey and in many other places too, apathy rules the day. (How many people went to Matt Fallaize presentation on the alternative funding plans? 30 apparently. By your reckoning, that makes all of Guernsey happy to borrow and go into debt for the first time.)
You do not have to have a PHD in building waste plants to know that lumbering Guernsey with a £200 million bill is a bad idea when the job could be done for approx £35 million. Nor do you need a PHD in building waste plants to know that shackling Guernsey to a 25 year contract will restrict our ability to benefit from the constant improvements and developments that are happening in waste technology. Nor do you need a PHD in building waste plants to see through the ‘Green wash’ pedalled by PSD describing the Suez solution as a ‘high recycling option’ when in reality it will do absolutely nothing to encourage house hold recycling… infact it will do the opposite. You just need to be able to read.
However, since you are impressed by people with qualifications, then this article written by a Dr, living in Guernsey, who has been in the waste industry for 30 years should be of interest to you. http://www.g-can.net/articles/detail.aspx?articleid=169
Maybe you could enlighten us as to what you think are ‘extremist’ beliefs. I am intrigued!
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truthsayer??????
i think rosie has just torn your poor attempt at what you seem to think is the truth apart.
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This is too much of an important decision to be ushered through the States as a fait accompli… Rosie’s right – we urgently need to speak out about this, and I get the impression that it’s far from just a “vocal minority” who care about the financial and environmental future of the island.
£200m plus is far, far more than we need to pay, especially when we taxpayers bear all the risk. What worries me is that environmental legislation is likely to get a lot tougher after the Global Climate Summit in December, so there’s a good chance that Suez’s technology – which I think only just scrapes through legislative standards at the moment on several environmental fronts – will suddenly fall short, just after we’ve committed to it for 25 years… We need to go for one of the cheaper and more flexible solutions proposed so we can adapt to changing circumstances with minimal financial burden.
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Just to remind me that 25 years is quite a long time to tie us all into an expensive contract I took a look at what was happening in 1984.
The Soviets were boycotting the Los Angeles Olympics
Zola Budd ran for GB
Bob Geldof formed Band Aid to sing Do they know it’s Christmas
Mrs Thatcher demands a larger EU rebate
Ronald Reagan visits China
Torvill & Dean win with Bolero
The pound coin replaces the pound note in England
Virgin Atlantic’s first flight
O levels out GCSE’s in
IRA bombs the Grand Hotel Brighton during Tory conference
First voyage of space shuttle Discovery
First CD players on sale
Scargill fined for obstruction during Miners strike
WPC Yvonne Fletcher shot dead at Libyan Embassy
Popular film releases.. The Terminator,Ghostbusters,Police Academy
Popular TV … Knight Rider, The A-Team, Cheers, Cagney and Lacey
I wonder what will be happening in 2034 ?
Probably still debating how to sort out our rubbish !
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Rosie has blown nothing of mine apart Bcb
and can you please use punctuation, so I can understand your sentences.
As usual with her brigade they pedal half-truths and scare monger. Saddle with debt? Forgive me if I am wrong but doesn’t every idiot and his wife know this is going to be a self funding project.
Now onto democracy. Rosie you speak highly of it and yes we do have it. G-can put candidates up for election with specific policies on waste and please tell us all what democracy decided. Whether you like individuals in the States, or whether they scraped in, does not matter. They were democratically elected unlike Rosie et al and therefore they are given a mandate to represent. If we don’t like it we get vote again and show disapproval.
High ideals are all well and good but they have to be coupled with a practical reality.
We could ban cars, cows releasing methane, have wind farms and live in a perfect world but in reality this is not going to happen. Sometimes we need to bite the bullet and just get on with things to the best of Guernsey’s ability. A new car is always out of date when you buy it and it is the same with technology. You have to get the best at that time and the truth is like Beaucamps the Guernsey people are fed up of waiting and delays. Next it will be stop the rebuild of that until it is perfectly green.
I really feel that Rosie and the like have no concept of the depth of feeling in Guernsey to get this moving. You believe that people share your views because you see them as right. You want government to perform to the perfect green way. Yet I would like to see how they would react if government banned alcohol and chocolate because of their detrimental effect on society. I expect as usual double standards would come into play. Do not argue that they are different because the harmful effect on society can be measured in the same way.
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Thatcher, she was rubbish.
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Truthsayer.
Nonsense.
We want government to do right by the public. The public do not want the government to spend their money on schemes that are inappropriate.
You may live in a world where burning everything makes sense, but from where the majority of the world are standing, resources are shrinking.
It may well be, when all is fairly compared, that this scheme is the most suitable. But who’s word do we have on that? Will the entire process, the pros and cons, the research and the reasoning be published to give the public confidence that we are getting the best solution?
Consumables shouldn’t need banning. Personal choice involves education that gives us the ability to understand the dangers of overindulgence. When we are dealing with waste we can only be as efficient as the infrastructure. We have no choice. So you are very wrong.
Bryn
Yes.
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Why not do as some other small islands do? Each individual could be more responsible for their own rubbish and sort it:
to their compost heap
re-cycling of paper, glass, plastic, tin etc
burning confidential papers
then there would be far less to collect and far less to dump in landfill sites or costly incinerators
Does mean a little more effort. Depends how much Guerns treasure their own island.
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truthsayer, you don’t speak the truth!
rosie has good points, i can only speak for myself that this is so important rather have another debate and so on for a few more years than make the wrong decision. you have your opinion and others have theirs.you are no more right than others.
it is no good saying we just need to get on with things, talk more and make the right decision.also, an election doesn’t then give politicians carte blanche, we can still argue, lobby and debate, that is democracy.
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Truthsayer says “Forgive me if I am wrong but doesn’t every idiot and his wife know this is going to be a self funding project”
PFI schemes (as this is)are self funding in the sense that the taxpayer / user pays an inflated sum in these self funding projects.
Environmental issues aside there is a real question about the cost of this self funding project to the people of Guernsey.
Just do the basic sums to se how much this self funding project will cost each person in Guernsey over 25 years. ompare that with existing charges.
After that you start the exercise and cost, once again.
As Practical says much can be done to reduce the cost of the project through recycling.
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Truthsayer
Rosie has blown nothing of mine apart Bcb
and can you please use punctuation, so I can understand your sentences.
yes she has and no i wont :)
are you sure you had trouble reading my sentence ? haha.
You wrote.
If we don’t like it we get vote again and show disapproval.
I think you missed somthing out there mate? please fill in the spaces next.
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And the simple, cheap, practical, enviromental and viable solution is???? ..landfill.
Where to landfill? Reclaimed land in the sea.
After its filled grass it over for a new golf course, park, housing, commercial development or leisure facilities.
Inceneration is 40x the capital cost and 10x the running costs and added to it all is bug ugly and sends smoke stacks across the island. Jersey has the worst solution from every angle most of all the costs involved.
It’s estimated all the rubbish produced in the US takes up less than 1% of its land mass if landfill is used. The enviro concerns about leakage etc are absolute garbage (excuse the pun). The benefit for Guerrnsey in reclaiming land is that we gain that 1% of land from the sea much to our benefit with zero downsides.
Landfill. Way to go…
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Helen …. you are right. As well as possibly falling short of the legislative standards in the (near) future, a mass-burn incinerator will also make it impossible for us to reach our CO2 emission targets…… That would not do our reputation any good!
Ray… That’s an excellent way to bring into focus what 25 years feels like! It makes me feel old!
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Johnny B
Revisit Pecqueries bay ?
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Sure soltion is simple….
Dig another hole to put the rubbish in. and use the stone out of that hole to build up the island sea defences and reclaim more land for housing.. which the build plots can be sold to pay for the hole digging… Everybody’s happy we save money.
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Consider the waste disposal options:-
Recycling
Recycling costs money and the world demand for recyclables is decreasing. All recyclables are exported by ship, the vast majority having to travel round the world to the Far East for recovery and re-use. To do this involves burning vast amounts of fossil fuels (to get the recyclables there, reprocess them and then ship new products all the way back). If you can spot the environmental benefit of doing that please let me know ‘cos I can’t.
Landfilling
If the landfill fires at Mont Cuet aren’t stopped they will create voids beneath the waste heap (besides emitting lots of noxious smoke and fumes in an uncontrolled and hazardous way). The existence of voids may mean that the heavy waste spreading vehicles can’t be used there anymore because their weight would be at risk of causing a collapse into a void, risking death for the drivers. Mont Cuet might have to close as a result. Needless to say, nobody will want their backyard to be used for a new landfill site.
Exporting to Jersey
Jersey doesn’t want Guernsey’s waste (they have already said so). Even if they did agree to take it, they would refuse to do so if their plant ever broke down or needed maintenance or it ever became politically unacceptable to take Guernsey’s waste. What would Guernsey do then? Don’t forget that new loading and shipping infrastructure would need to be built and some currently quiet roads would have to suffer lots of rubbish lorry movements each week.
Guernsey signed up to the Basel Convention (in terms of which signatories to the Convention accept responsibility for sorting out their own waste within their own boundaries) and Guernsey has the money and the expertise to deal with its own rubbish on the island.
Wake up and take some responsibility.
Action is needed now, not more chatter.
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Guernista
Is that the same responsibility for raining fly ash down on my lunch time pasty? Mmmm dioxins.
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To Truthsayer:
This waste project is going to suck up to £175 million out of the Guernsey economy….. call it ‘self funding’ if it makes you feel better… but that £200 million is not coming out of thin air…it’s coming out of every Guernsey man’s pocket. It won’t be voluntary… it will be a mandatory cost for us all. It will be a tax in all but name. Much of that money will be gone… out of the island and out of our economy.
I have no problem with high gate fees (ours here will be approx 3 times that of England) if they are used as a way of encouraging a reduction in waste generation but if PSD listened to the advice that the WDPP had given us, the far lower cost of their suggestion, (35m over the 25 years) would result in the States creating a revenue stream (approx £4m per annum ) as opposed to a financial drain. Beaucamp and sewage treatments would be just 2 of the wish list projects that could benefit from Guernsey being more prudent with its spending or hadn’t that occured to you? It just so happens that the cheaper option is also the environmentally superior option so you would think it would be a win win situation…. even to you!
Believe you me, Truthsayer, there is none more heartily sick of the waste debate than I am. I am fed up with trawling through the various Billet’s, consultant reports and land planning applications,(how many of them have you read?) and I am fed up with the frustration of seeing the common sense approach ignored. Despite PSD being repeatedly advised in various reports to NOT bring in a mass burn option, they seem determined to do just that….. and at any cost!! The irony is that PSD’s prefered fancy bespoke solution, is not only much more expensive than the alternatives, it will also take longer to implement…. about twice as long!
Of course there is not much public engagement in the debate….. it is a pretty turgid subject after all. The vast majority of people would rather go to the beach for a picnic than read about waste solutions. But anyone who can be bothered to look into what is going on, and has gone on over the last 5 years, is horrified and rightly concerned that Guernsey is in danger of making a huge and very costly mistake.
I repeat what I said in my earlier post. Our elected Government makes decisions on our behalf, but if we think those decisions are wrong and are going to be detrimental to our communtiy, then it is our duty to speak out. That is what a democracy is all about….. everybody having a voice and using it.
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Guernista.
Re your comments about recycling…. posted June 25th 6:14pm.
An article in the FT in May ’09 spoke of the rising value of recyclates…. rising at a greater rate than gold! To quote: “Once considered plain old rubbish, commercial and municipal waste is now a valuable global commodity. The UK recycling sector is worth £12bn, and the government’s Waste and Resources Action Programme predicts it will expand to £20-30bn by 2025.
WRAP have also brought out a report that they did on the CO2 emission savings that are made by recycling… even if those recyclates are being transported to China. The link is here…..
http://www.wrap.org.uk/downloads/CO2_Impact_of_Export_Report_v8_1Aug08.72bf0036.5760.pdf
In short…. recycling requires much less energy than the energy that is required to mine virgin materials which then need to be transported to another part of the world to be made into the materials required by industry. This made up material is then transported to where it is needed to be made into goods….. then those goods are transported to where they will be retailed etc.. Additionally, recyclates leaving Guernsey or travelling to China, are generally travelling on empty ships that are making the return journey anyway, having delivered there cargo, so the extra energy needed is minimal.
As the world renowned economist Nicholas Stern says in his new book… “ Recyclling is already making a major contribution to keeping down emissions. Indeed, its scale is so little appreciated that it might be described as one of the ‘best kept secrets’ in energy and climate change….. New technologies for separating out forms of waste could also have a great impact.”
Destroying waste by burning it is right at the very bottom of the waste heirachy….. it is the last thing you do after all other measures have been taken.
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