Airport firecrew warn of closure over strike review
Saturday 18th July 2009, 2:31PM BST.
GUERNSEY’S airport could close as a result of a tribunal of inquiry set up to look at what caused the last stoppage.
Firefighters issued the warning yesterday after the States agreed on Thursday to go for a legally-backed review of what led to pay talks breaking down and crews taking strike action during a bank holiday weekend in May. Witnesses can be compelled to attend and give evidence under oath.
A spokesman for the station’s three shifts said the men would not be prepared to attend the hearing in their own time.
That means watches could fall short unless people are prepared to provide cover voluntarily.
‘We have agreed to work overtime to cover for sickness or for those on training courses, but not for people attending inquiries,’ said the spokesman.
The men do not see why they should attend an inquiry on their own time when they say the problem resulted from failings by the States’ own pay body, the Public Sector Remuneration Committee.
‘If they want us to go down there and throw more mud at them, then that’s what we’ll do,’ said the spokesman.
‘The thing we do like about the inquiry is that people will get to hear the whole truth and the dirty dealings that have gone on will all come out.’
Firefighters have issues such as childcare to consider and say the inquiry would be very difficult to plan around their commitments.
The spokesman said recommendations in industrial relations reports by Burchill and Robinson had never been implemented, which was the key to the whole matter.
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After the Industrial Relations officer and the new political head of PSRC had been silly enough to forecast that the seting up of a tribunal would lead to further action by fiorefighters, it was only a matter opf time before the firefighters themselves joined in.
The comments of both the IR offier and Deputy Langlois will serve to make an unstable situation even more unstable.
Alastair Langlois’s comment clearly indicates to the firefighters that it is likely he will capitulate at the first sign of a stoppage.
Not a very encouraging start by the new PSRC.
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How many people will this tribunal consist of? Could they not relocate to the fire station and take the evidence there. scheduling around the firemen’s duties. Then they would all be on hand to maintain cover.
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This problem is easily resolved
Move that part of the inquiry into the firemen’s snooker room
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This whole situation is totally out of hand on both sides – one who don’t really know where they are heading, the other appearing to think they can hold island to ransome!
Guernsey and common sense do not go hand in hand.
Time to emigrate folks – before the government finally ends up with a complete new house of newbies (or going down the bankruptcy route!)
I am on strike/work to rule till I get a £4000 payout too (oh I wish) Get real! – if you folks don’t wiah to visit the tribunal during your time off I would like a refund from the award back to us taxpayers.
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As an outsider to this situation and past events my initial reaction was, oh great more barrel wearing.
If all was as clean as it is supposed to be from what has been printed by the Firemen then there is everything to gain from the proposed review. So a little inconvenient to attend further meetings, but if it helps clear the situation up then I think it is a good idea.
If there is nothing to hide then come out and play ball.
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Lyndon made the mess in the first place, giving in the the last time, but frankly he’s not the only one , they’re going to hold the the island over a barrel every time they feel like spitting the dummy out the pram again now !! The flight links, as every one now knows, is such a valuable thing to loose for a day let alone two, all the people who lost money from connecting flights in the uk or business due to these strikes, who possibly can’t afford to because they don’t earn the sort of money the fireman or the politicians concerned earn will soon start, rightly, thinking that everyone involved should be got rid of and replaced. The cost will be absorbed in the long term, by having politicians that can actually manage situations in an adult way, and fireman that are actually happy to have a well paid job in a world that is in the midst of a financial crisis.
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Oh for goodness sake, isn’t it time to be looking forward to the future and resolving this dispute rather than playing some sort of blame game over the past ?
There are moments when I despair over what goes on in Guernsey.
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Firstly, now that the airport fire-fighters know full well they can get away with striking as and when they feel like it, they will do so at every opportunity in order to blackmail the States and the people of Guernsey into giving in to their demands – regardless of how un/reasonable they may be. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Secondly, there is a simple solution to the problem: why doesn’t the inquiry visit the fire-fighters at the airport when they are on duty?
That way, they need not go on strike, nor claim overtime or any other remuneration for attending the hearing out of hours and they will be able to give their evidence as part of their normal working day.
Plus, those leading the inquiry will know who is working when from the rosters, so there will be no excuses for either side for not being able to complete the inquiry.
It really isn’t rocket science…..
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Oh well, another 4K it is then.
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The airport firefighters are really showing their true colours now, £4K has been given to them just to make sure they turn up to work overtime, still they are threatening to cause more problems – I’m sure what little sympathy the public had for them is fast disappearing.
This enquiry is being held as a direct result of their decision to withdraw cover which in turn required the States to step in and take instant action, surely it should be compulsory for them to attend and explain the reasons for their action.
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One should never give in to blackmailers, no matter what the cost.Until this lesson is learnt then the problem will re-occur whenever the “gentlemen” feel like a bit more of the taxpayers cash!
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If after over two years the States still do not understand what the FF dispute is about I fail to see how an inquiry will enlighten them further.
Let all parties stop seeking to apportion fault, and initiate meaningful negotiations to resolve the issues. Only nine months left now before “back to square one!!!”
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Should visitors to the Island start planning to come by boat?
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We have now been given notice that the firefighters attitude has not changed one bit (despite the 4k!), surely this gives the states plenty of time to sort out emergency cover from the uk.
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Having been stuck both times that the strikes have taken place in the past, this time I do have some sympathy for the firefighters.
They are being dragged into a political fight between members of the States. This is about discrediting Deputy Trott, not about getting to the bottom of the abject failure of the former PSRC to resolve these IR issues. Nothing more, nothing less.
If it were anythign else, I’d be joining in on the rants above about having us over a barrel – but this time I’m with the firefighters.
Why should they give up their personal time to help one group of deputies attempt to bring down another?
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Mr P came up with a great idea last night, www .guernseyairportfirmen.com.
Members of the public can post up who these malicious, selfish, gripers are. Then once ‘outed’ we can all start behaving like they do – but only towards them.
A taste of their own medicine.
A denial of service attack if you will.
All local shops, business and tradesmen could blacklist them until they start behaving themselves.
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Surely the blame must lie with that trott feller; he butted in and see what has happened.
Now the Guernsey airport authorities, should consult with their English air port authorities,
Surely their must be a body of people who have these people under whatever authority they belong to.
This blackmailing will go on forever, if it isn’t stopped dead NOW.
They have no respect for the plight of law abiding citizens who employ them and therefore they are breaching; if not any of their laws, but the law of human dignity.
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Forget the dispute for now, can anybody tell us why the airport managers have still not bothered to improve staffing levels? Or have they, but are waiting for them to complete training, With the unemployment levels as they are there must be dozens of fit young men willing to put their lives on the line for the Highly lucrative packages of the islands essential services !
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Ray – re suggestion to hold the Tribunal in the Station Snooker Room – they’d probably go on strike claiming loss of benefits for the time the room was out of action, and we’d be subbing them all another £4k each for doing arguable the easiest job on the Island.
Combine the Fire Services, recruit from elsewhere if needs be, sack those that hold the Island to ransom together with those from the States that allowed us to get into this position in the first place. Incompetence all around.
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I really don’t see what the problem is with having the inquiry at the Station while the fire fighters are on duty? Arrange the shifts between themselves so that the relevant people are on duty at the time. Doesn’t take a genius!
If they’re not on training sessions they’re sitting around on call, may aswell make good use of tax payers money. They could even have the tv on in the back ground if it makes them happy.
If a call gets made then abandon the meeting and re-schedule. If they have nothing to hide then why all the drama.
I’ve lost track of the amount of time and weekends I’ve had to work unpaid to get the job done!! What’s wrong with these guys, if they’re goung to cry about it all the time then issue licences and bring in English firefighters. I’m sure they’ll appreciate the job and wont try and rip the tax payers for as much as they can.
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I don’t really want to get into a debate about this all over again but don’t believe everything you read in the papers. Nobody has said they will go on strike if there is a tribunal (which there will be) or if any of us have to go. The fact of the matter is, if any of us are told we have to go to the tribunal and it is whilst we are on shift then there is no guarantee that there will be someone to cover the shift as this will be on a voluntary basis because the year agreement we signed is to cover sickness and training courses.
MRS P: I hope you have not paid to register your website as it is not wholly accurate unless you have something against a group of people responsible for the care and upkeep of all the fir trees around the Airport.
You might want to check out this site before you register any potential domain names
http://www.dictionary.reference.com They provide the correct spelling of many wonderful and simply marvellous words.
The link you posted does not work so I assume you have yet to set it up properly or it was merely to strike fear into our hearts at the possibility of never being able to shop or trade again. If you want the naughty Airport Firefighters to behave I hear the naughty step is quite effective but you must be persistent.
The idea of having the tribunal at the Airport Fire Station is a good idea. I personally have no problem with this or attending one, not that I think it will really be productive.
If this idea does go ahead then if I can be informed of numbers attending I can arrange for our Olympic swimming pool to be drained and replaced with chairs. My solarium could be used for warming up any canapes or hors d’oeuvres, the Firefighters could provide a waiter service as they do nothing all day and will probably be glad of something to do, the lazy little monkeys.
Be warned though, you may find it hard to get through the door due to the large amount of people constantly camping outside the door in the desperate hope of bagging one of these highly sought after, well paid, cushy little jobs.
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Hi SM, thanks for pointing that out, I was so busy baking my famous brownies in preparation for this afternoon’s tea party that I dropped an ‘e’ – how careless!
Now I’ve had my spelling corrected hubby and I will get on with the website later this evening.
BTW I looked up ‘fireman’ (being very careful to type each letter in correctly this time!) on your website and found out that it’s also used to describe a relief pitcher in baseball, that’s very interesting. I think we have all learnt a lot here.
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Indeed I too have learnt something as I did not know that. Not wanting to be pedantic but it is politically correct to use the term ‘firefighter’ so as not to discriminate against women. Although I am sure someone will no doubt point out that lazy Airport Firefighters don’t actually fight any fires so it probably doesn’t apply to us. Those brownies sound yummy.
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Well said SM!!
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There is a balance to be struck here between two things. One is continued provision of a service essential to the Island. The other is a politically motivated / get-some-more-lawyers-or-whoever-in-and-pay-them-lots publicity stunt. If one clashes with the other then it isn’t really the hardest task in the world to see which should be prioritised.
What is this expensive inquiry going to tell us that we don’t already know? That there was a dispute? That Lyndon stepped in and upset a few people? That the firemen were offered an extra £4k, took it and went back to work? What else is so flippin’ essential for us to know so that we can all sleep well at night?
How about the lawyers, court administrators, politicians etc attend in THEIR free time and not get paid, in order to co-ordinate the hearing times with periods when the appropriate fire personnel can be available without disruption to full shift quotas?
If the firemen are expected to turn up in their free time (yeah, like there’s anything at all “free” about this nonsensical process) then surely it’s right for all involved to do so.
Hey, the taxpayer could even avoid a whacking great bill at the end if this sense of fair play prevails.
Dream on.
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Mrs P, before setting up your website, I strongly suggest a thorough review of the Human Rights (Bailiwick of Guernsey) Law, 2000 (before publishing personal details of anyone (without their prior permission) on any website (derogatory or otherwise) and so attempting to render them unable to receive goods and services freely available to others). As you like links so much, here is one for you to help you on your way:
http://www.gov.gg/ccm/cms-service/download/asset/?asset_id=295004
Perhaps, on the same train of thought you would like to publish your name here so that during any air disaster the passenger list can be checked to ensure that you do not receive your service from the AFS?
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Reading the coments above, its clear that not many contributors if any are shift workers.I have been a shift worker working at airports for the best part of my working life and would like, if I may put across what it actually means to be a shift worker, not only an airport firefighter but any occupation where workers give up quality time with family and freinds. We are there for you, the Policeman, Firefighters, Nurses, Doctors, Airport workers from Bagage handlers, Aircraft cleaners, Flt crew, Aircraft Engieers, Security staff, ATC, Airpor maintenance workers. We all work antisocial hours which means giving up our Quality time and when one of our fellow workers goes on holiday we very often have to cover our coleagues shifts giving up even more quality time.
Over the years we miss, watching our children in school plays, school parents evenings, freinds and family birthdays, bar b ques on those May bank holidays. So far this year I have had only two bank holidays off, bank holiday monday and Mayday, I work half my weekends in the year. One section that I know of at the airport only get twelve full w’ends off per year and have to cover one anothers leave. this means working twelve days without a day off and on day six they finish 10:00pm and start day seven at 06:00am.
I did read the comment,”You knew what the job intailed when you got into it. there are lots of other shift wokers out ther doing it for less so, just get on with it.” Or words to that effect. Well yes thats very true and many of us are quite content with our lot, enjoy our jobs and enjoy shift work. However, things have changed over the years since I started out as a shift worker. We get less remuneration for woking antisocial hours this means its more difficult to recruite staff money is tight in the aviation industry because every one has got used to flying for less than it acctually costs to operat an aeroplane and run an airport, because there is less money there’s less manpower to do the same job, those man hours have to be made up, who makes them up, we do with more of our quality time.
In conclusion let me point this out, you can buy a ticket for London Gatwick and it will cost around about the same as it would have done eighteen years ogo. Eighteen years ago on a Saterday aeroplanes would be lined up waiting for vacant stands, we would work from 2:00pm till 9:00pm before we could get a cup of tea and a sandwich, most of us were well paid for antisocial hours the firefighters were well paid and as far as I recall, there was no problem recruting anybody at the airport and the sort of problems we are all commentig about never occured.
consider this, had I have had a Mars bar with my cup of tea and sanwich it would have cost me about 20p. Perhaps air fares need to keep pace more with inflation then all airport workers could be properly paid for there quality time and we wouldn’t be faced with the problems we have with our firefighters and maybe we wouldn’t have to subsidise our ailine to the tune of £1.5m. but thats another topic.
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SM – Firefighter does not have a gender.
There is women’s boxing and mens boxing – they are fighters.
On the subject, why don’t the States contact the MOD in the UK and offer some of their army crew who are qualified in fire training, or who require fire training an opportunity to be stationed in Guernsey for the next 12 months (with differing units) and then recruit new staff, on new contracts, that are not allowed to strike.
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Yes it’s a tough job if they have to do what they are trained to do.
It shows the ‘Manly’ side of the job.
Now if only they could live up to the illusion that they are the tough Firefighters and act like MEN.
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Louise – could you point out which bit of the Human Rights Law would prevent Mrs P doing what she is doing? As far as I know, she is not actually a public body.
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What’s the need to setup a tribunal to see what caused the last closure? I think it’s quite an easy thing to figure out, I think even a 4 year old that has been listening in on their parents about the whole thing could figure it out.
It’s money! They need more money, as everything around us is increasing in price, as C.M has said, their wages are not in keeping with inflation. So why don’t the states members stop increasing their wage packet, and put it into the community, and make a real difference. Instead of wasting their time organising and arguing about a flipping blaming game.
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Where is Merlin and his good decent common sense approach?
Merlin told me after the May bank holiday fireman’s strike that it had been settled for at least a year and reassured me I should ‘let my love bloom’ and not hesitate to come over and see my lovely husband who is working on the island. Just about to book flights for the August bank holiday weekend and I see that the firefighters, not content with the extra £4K, are about to strike again so my instinctive misgivings were true. Oh dear, Merlin, what do I do now? I can’t just take loadsa time out of my own job until if and when the poor deprived dears decide if they want to work again.
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Susi: If you refer back to my previous comments the Airport Fire Service are not going on strike or threatening to go on strike.
Darren: Yes you are right, the term ‘Firefighter’ does not have a gender that is why it is used to define somebody in the role of Fighting fires and other related work.
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Louise – what load of tosh, you certainly don’t work anywhere near the legal profession!
Human rights laws are to protect individuals from the State, now I know I have a lot of influence in the right places but I don’t know whether to be flattered or dismayed that you have elevated me to this status.
Further more it is not ‘illegal’ to deny goods or services for any reason.
If I ran a corner shop I could refuse to sell you 20 B&H because you shoes were sooooo last season. If I a ran a pub I can refuse you entry because I don’t like the new haircut you’ve given your Papillon. If I drove little a yellow truck I could refuse to turn up to work unless I was given £4K – you get the idea.
Luckily my tea parties only seem to attract people I like but I’d be quite within my rights to not invite you because I don’t like people that spread disinformation.
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CM, you make a fair point about shift work, but consider this – you knew all that when you signed your contract. You chose shiftwork, and so did the firemen.
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Mrs P, I sugget the only malicious, selfish, gripers are you and your misinformed, misguided and unreasonable followers.
I also suggest that you refrain from interpreting the law and its rationale, clearly punching above your weight here and should concentrate on the corner shop.
Whilst hubby is working on the malicious hate campaign website later this evening, I have another one for him, http://www.getoverit.com!
Shame on you as local traders :(
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I for one am getting entirely fed up with this propoganda fuelled debate. The headline in the Guernsey Press after which you all comment is not reflective of the story detailed below it and has only served to irritate the general public. Is this the reaction which you were trying to provoke GP? If so I am surprised given that your Editors opinion of the situation was somewhat turned around persuant to the meeting that he attended between the AFS and the PSRC and reflected in his comment in the GP. Please guys stop this futile quarelling and stick to the facts. No-one is helping anyone here. If the AFS won’t go to the hearing, bring the hearing to them in shift time. Problem solved. As for threatening to publish the details of Firefighters on a website goes Mrs P, utterly ridiculous and juvenile. Maybe you should put your name out there so that the boys can ensure your services are compromised too. THE AFS HAVE NOT THREATENED STRIKE ACTION AGAIN. They have simply advised that if they are forced to attend a hearing during working hours (as they will not do so in their own time) then cover at the airport cannot be guaranteed. Surely then the hearing will go to them as the states will not risk the airport being closed again for a hearing regarding the initial problem?
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NBME and K I think you should both calm down a bit!
I merely imagined a hypothetical website. If you find ideas and opinions upsetting then I suggest that teh interwebs might not be the best place for you two to hang out.
It’s nearly Pimms O’clock but luckily there’s just time for me to go off and be utterly ridiculous and juvenile first. I just hope there aren’t any of my misinformed, misguided and unreasonable followers in the kitchen!
The joke’s on you anyway – I haven’t got the £10 needed to register a website as I’m saving up for better travel insurance……………
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“THE AFS HAVE NOT THREATENED STRIKE ACTION AGAIN. ”
Ron Le Cras was on the radio this weekend and he, effectively said, that attending tribunals was not included in the £4000 per man guaranteed cover agreement; going on to say that the airport might not be covered if his members need to attend a tribunal.
That may have been a statement of fact, but coming from a hard nosed negotiator like RLeC it seemed very much a shot across the bows.
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May I just point out that the ‘Eric’ who posted on the 21st july at 12-24pm is not me.
I agree with him but wish to just point out that fact.
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Isn’t it time Guernsey people (Mrs P in particular) grew up?
I have always been rather proud of my island and the people who live on it.
Every walk of like has problems, it is grown up, sensible people who try to work things out for the best, sometimes they get it wrong, if you think you can do better please put yourself forward for the next elections! (don’t forget to let us all know who you are so I can avoid voting for the clown). Stop trying to stir things up and let the people who know the situation deal with it, doesn’t the media spread enough dirt around without the local community joining in?
Quite frankly I think you are a disgrace, stop trying to come across all nice, you, and people like you embarrass me…
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NBME
However you put it there is the possibility that the airport will be closed again due to lack of firefighter cover.
The States are not generally known for flexibility in this manner. Why would they do so now?
All of which leaves me stranded at the airport with my own employer not best pleased.
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I thought that AFS never had threatened strike action. Isn’t that the whole point? They brought the island to a standstill by not striking but by only working their set shifts. Now they are pointing out that they will not cover shift shortages caused by the tribunal (but as you say, they are not threatening to strike) – sounds ominously similar to me.
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TL
Most would have regarded the total withdrawal of cover at the airport as industrial action.
The withdrawal of cover was seen at the time to be daft when as TL says they could have caused stoppages at no cost to themselves.
As it is they lost no more than a days pay and gained four grand.
Seems they might have known that their total removal of cover would bring a white knight runnning to their aid.
Why else risk the loss of wages for an unlimited time?
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TL: We haven’t said we won’t cover shift shortages caused by a tribunal. We merely gave warning that there is always the possibility that there might be a shortage as our agreement does not bind us to cover for this. We were giving management a chance to sort out a back up plan should this possible situation occur by giving them advanced notice.
Again we can’t really win. We give notice of a possible problem and we are the bad guys because now we are going on strike. If we didn’t say anything and a problem occurred we would be slated for knowing this and saying nothing.
Susi is probably right that the States aren’t generally flexible so nothing will be done.
Back in May when we gave notice of lack of cover (for the afternoon of the bank holiday) so that something could be sorted out the same thing happened, nothing was done. When we reminded them a few days before and asked them if they realised their airport could be shut the response from a senior civil servant was “oh well”.
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This is especially for Mrs P -
My husband is an airport fireman and how dare you even think about setting up a website where he can be discriminated, we have young children who could be affected by that.
My husband wasn’t even at work the week they striked as we were on holiday but yet i bet you would still be willing to have his name and address on your pathetic website
The pay rise the Airport fireman recieved was well deserved, on new year my husband worked new years eve night, he worked new years day from 5 in the morning till 9 at night to cover and he worked the following morning, he gets called out in the middle of the night quite often and about a month ago he was at work for almost 24 hours. Plus You wouldnt be moaning about the payrise anymore if he pulled you out of a burning plane.
I am totally sick of the lack of support this Island are showing to our Airport Firefighters they were on low pay for a job that is potentially dangerous, they are well trained and actually work hard, everything that is said about them doing nothing is complete and utter crap. The public dont know half of what the job involves, yes ok we havent had many plane crashes but thats only part of the job. We have a family and my husband has to have a second job so we never see him and i also have to work every evening so we certainly dont have it easy. Do u know £4,000 over 12 months means they bring home about an extra £40 a week, its hardly made us rolling in money like everyone makes out but of course it helps towards bills and it also brings their wages almost inline with most other jobs.
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I am finding this quite hilarious
Mrs P, you went fishing, and you caught a few whoppers, congrats :)
As for the people that went for the bait with increasing malice and just as ridiculous comments, well well well.
I’m up for some Pimms….
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Eric,if you had taken note of para 3 of my comment, I said that times had changed. I signed my contract many years ago and though my basic salary has increased over the years my shift pay has not. To change this situation I have three options, ask for my contract to be changed to reflect an increase in shift pay to bring it into line with what it was all those years ago when I Knew all about shift work, I suspect a 10% increase in my salary would be out of the question.
I could join a union along with my fellow workers and take industrial action. That would make me very unpopular.
Or I could walk away from the job just as many shift workers do and just as one shift worker did, not a million miles from the airport fire station. It now costs that company a huge amount of money for a contract worker to replace him.
My point was, we have to start rewarding people who give up their quality time for us and not just take it for granted that they will always be there when we need them. Do you have to say goodnight to your children over the telephone.
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Oh dear our beloved tea party mistress has fallen foul of the opinion bigots. No free speech for you Mrs P. Oh well see you for cakies on Friday, we’ll have a good gossip about them then. byyyyyyeeeeeeeeeee!
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Trouble is, The Man, that this is not a dispute about triviality. This is the livelihoods of essential workers.
It is clear from numerous threads, and by politicians on this site, that Guernsey wants the luxurious and secure lifestyle without paying for it. If people think it is acceptable to mock and refuse the same luxuries for the people that make your life run smoothly then we really are living in fantasy land.
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Arnald (hello again)
I cant speak for mrs P, but I’m pretty sure she was having a wind up, and has done so very successfully.
Yes its a debate about livliehood but we could take her comments with a pinch of salt and simply ignore them, or we could put our blood pressure through the roof and start an arguement that you cannot win(because you’ll never win an arguement that 1 protagonist is not taking seriously). By fuelling the fire Mrs P now has more ammo to wind them up even more.
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Neither Jesery or the Isle of Man have any problems with their airport firefighters simply because they pay them the rate for the job, it’s as simple as that!.
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Pete
Do you know what the Jersey and Isle of Man position is re. allowing their firefighters to have second and maybe even third jobs ? Its very relevant to the comparison. If they are paying them more for the firefighting job but banning second or third jobs then their firefighters will actually be financially worse off than ours on an overall basis, albeit their hourly rate from all employments will be better.
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CM
My point was, we have to start rewarding people who give up their quality time for us and not just take it for granted that they will always be there when we need them. Do you have to say goodnight to your children over the telephone.
I totally agree with CM. How about starting
with the nurses who are also in this same situation but never take industrial action.
However no-one, least of all the firefighters supporters, has anwered my points:
However you put it there is the possibility that the airport will be closed again due to lack of firefighter cover.
All of which leaves me stranded at the airport with my own employer not best pleased.
Perhaps someone could advise me what I should tell my own employer, whose contract works to deadlines, when I am left kicking my heels until the airport is open again. Or should I just abandon seeing my husband?
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Funny how Mrs. P’s idea became a wind up and not serious when she got out of her depth. Bless. Looks like the Fisherwoman fell in and became the fish.
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Whats the matter SM, a little red faced because you rose to the bait??
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Mrs P Fan Club 2:
I am probably red faced after my holiday in the sun. If you read my previous posts you will indeed find that there was no swallowing or even nibbling of the bait on my part just correction and advice on setting up aforementioned website. If the bait had been a brownie I would no doubt have bitten straight away and probably swallowed the hook…..mmmm….brownies.
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Forget the enquiry it won’t achieve anything. If they must spend money then use it to find alternative cover so that our Island is not held to ranson in the future.
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Condor must be loving all this.
Did I hear brownies mentioned? I love cake!
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Why can’t I get any answers?
No-one, least of all the firefighters supporters, has anwered my points:
However you put it there is the possibility that the airport will be closed again due to lack of firefighter cover.
All of which leaves me stranded at the airport with my own employer not best pleased.
Perhaps someone could advise me what I should tell my own employer, whose contract works to deadlines, when I am left kicking my heels until the airport is open again. Or should I just abandon coming to see my husband?
Come on, EL, you support the firefighters so just tell me what you would do?
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Susi-I would book for condor. Or if you want to fly, use Aurigny. My understanding is that Aurigny can still fly if the crew are 1 man down as their aircraft are smaller. In all seriousness, the AFS never did go on strike and they wont do – and I am no fan of the AFS! Feel free to come and spend some quality time with hubby in our peaceful little island!
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Susi – Forgot to mention-the states will not allow the airport to close after the uproar last time so you really do have nothing to fear.!
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David. Regardless of what Jersey and I.O.M. are paid, they as well as myself will not be dictated to as to what we chose to do in our spare time! Every one has the same hours in a day and this should be respected. I personally have not been able to play sport since being at the airport (10 years) as I cannot afford to. What do you do in your spare time? Well I would say that is non of my business!(nor do I care)
Mrs P fan club. Would you be so kind to extend the invite to your little tea party to the firefighters. Would love to enjoy the occasion as well as the conversation!
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Geoff
You miss my point. If Jersey and the Isle of Man were, for example, paying 25% more than Guernsey to its firefighters, but were insisting that they couldn’t have a second job, then Pete’s earlier suggestion that Jersey and the Isle of Man cope with the issue by paying their firefighters more than Guernsey does becomes irrelevant. If Guernsey’s firefighters would decline a 25% pay rise with that string attached, resulting in an overall loss of income from combined employments at present, then the negotiations would have to take a very different direction, would they not ?
If Guernsey’s firefighters were, for example, to come out and say that they would only give up any second or third jobs if they were to be paid say £50,000 per annum to compensate, and if £50,000 per annum is deemed to be way over the top for a firefighter’s wage, then I’d call that quite an impossible negotiating position.
And in fact it would be my business, as I’d be paying it as a taxpayer.
For what its worth I happen to think that firefighters should be allowed to take secondary jobs provided that the secondary job is recognised as exactly that, and that it does not prevent the primary job from being carried out. From what I hear, that isn’t formally the case at the moment, which cannot be right.
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Here we go again.Sorting the chaf from the wheat.
As mentioned in previous posts the AFS are happy to attend a tribunal,particularly in light of the public backlash to previous lack of category.
What becomes quite apparent when reading these posts is that many an armchair critic who feels all to eager to comment on the AFS issues appear to be quite blind to the issues the media sensationalise.
The AFS watches are run on minimum manning levels(as they were in May,nothings changed)and that if one or more men or even a whole watch are summoned to appear at a tribunal(which will probably be the case) then automatically the Airport category drops to cat 5 or worst case scenario cat 0,these holes in manning still need to be filled by off duty staff.This is where the problem lies,as posted previously this becomes very onerous on the off duty crew as they are already providing there time for sickness etc as a goodwill agreement for the ongoing discussions.
A more practical solution as mentioned before would be to hold the Tribunal at the AFS or Terminal conference room so that all staff summoned to the hearing could remain servicable without putting undue pressure on offduty crew.
As in Striking,i feel this word is used a little bit to often when in fact this was not the case and will not be the case as a Strike tends to consist of abandonment of duties and responsibilities in which the indindividuals are paid for.The AFS did indeed provide emergency cover and still currently do.
In light of the category falling in May the Daconian PSRC handed in their resignations.This Dept mandated or not, were the straw that broke the camels back due to their utter blindness to serious concerns at the AFS,and not addressing important issues in a speedy manner when it mattered.
I think that with a knew paybody in place now and in light of previous events and shortsightedness by the past PSRC, this new paybody can only be seen in a positive light and move things forward.
What a Tribunal will prove is beyond me.Apportion blame?Maybe.Hold people accountable?I doubt it.Bring closure to the debacle?Obviously not.Massage the egos of ministers and publicly air their laundry?Yes and at a huge cost.
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SM…. “I am probably red faced after my holiday in the sun.” £4k well spent then……
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Susi – I hate flying, i never fly so i dont use the airport, i personally wouldnt fly to visit anyone. Also as far as i know the airport will not close because of lack of cover, they have agreed to cover all holiday and sickness. As for cover for the tribunal do u really think it will he held August bank holiday weekend? I may be wrong as there is no date for the tribunal yet but i very much doubt any states members will give up their bank holiday to attend a tribunal. Also surely everyone will know the date of the tribunal anyway when there is a confirmed date.
I totally agree that the tribunal should be held at the firestation and i would of thought the majority of the firefighters would be quite happy with this.
People really shouldnt believe everything they read in the paper or hear on the news, the majority of it is rubbish or an exaggerated version of the truth.
Ted – about getting english firefighters instead, i very much doubt any of them would want to come here and work as they get paid pretty much the same amount and at the bigger airports atually quite a lot more, house prices are much less there and also its much cheaper to live in the majority of england so im thinking good luck with that. Also yes ypu may have to work some weekends unpaid, i also do as well. The difference is the firefighters actually work the majority of weekends, i think they get like 12 off a year at the most and they end up having to cover shifts on a lot of these. They just want to be appreciated for the hours they put in and for the quality time they miss with their families, we all know shift workers are generally paid more and so they should be, only unfortunately our firefighters arent paid anymore than your average job. Lets not forget they are fully first aid trainned to deal with incidents in the airport, they are there to save our lives god forbid a plane should crash and they are special constables. They also end up staying late on most late shifts as the last plane is very often late plus like i have said before they get called out in the middle of the night to cover for airsearch and medical flights, my job is definately not that demanding.
I also love the way people keep going on about taking the tax payers money etc etc, The firefighters are all tax payers too, i am also a tax payer. Why are you wasting you time commenting on this subject when there are so many wasters that dont work living on tax payers money. Why dont you waist your obviously plenty of free time complaining about them.
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El
You say firefighters save lives? God help us that they ever would need to, but, I doubt one of them has to date?. Nurses on the other hand work shifts, save lives, work bank holidays, never complain AND get paid less. If you don’t like it , get a proper job!
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Mac,
I wholly agree with your post;Nurses on the other hand work shifts……..
Absolutely right they do deserve a better deal,but this particular forum isn,t about comparisons to the other emergency services,Healthcare etc.
If other Departments are not happy with there lot,then I suggest they fight their case as hard as they can and prepare themselves for a huge amount of pressure from management and general public alike.
Whether or not an Airport Firefighter has saved a life or not, should be immaterial to the disscussion topic on this forum.
As in “get a proper job”?Could you please enlighten me as to what your definition of a proper job is? The Dictionary defination states:Job.A person,s regular paid employment.Irrespective of what that entails.
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Student Bob:
Got a problem with me having a holiday? You don’t have to spend £4K to have a holiday in the sun and I would have had one with or without it (and just for the record we haven’t had a one off £4k payment. A weekly payment less usual contributions has hardly put me in the top ten of Guernsey’s rich list).
Mac:
You may be right. Not many firefighters at the Airport have saved many lives. Thats not to say they haven’t been in the situation to try. Only recently one of my colleagues was in Arrivals dragging some poor gentlemen out of the toilets who had sadly died of a heart attack.
Even more recently two more were just outside the Airport perimeter helping with a lady who was having a heart attack whilst driving by the Airport. Other colleagues, some time ago, entered a Channel Express aircraft in an attempt to save the two pilots (I will spare you the details of what they actually came across in the cockpit). Just because some things aren’t front page headlines doesn’t mean it never happens. Granted these aren’t weekly occurences but they still happen and we have to constantly keep our training up to date to deal with them.
As for the Nurses and anybody else in the medical profession whether it be Ambulance Technicians, Paramedics, etc. I personally think they should be some of the highest earners in the Island but unfortunately they aren’t and probably never will be.
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Daivd, I accept what you are saying, however it is all in place as it is with the local brigade and police etc. Our position does allow us to work on our days off on the proviso that it does not affect our main job being the afs. What you will find is that our contract (which is not worth the paper its written on) does not compel us to work on any of our days off at the airport.
This valuble time off is unfortunately spent by most of us having to work a second job in order to make ends meet.
I think that you will find you would have no arguments from us if we were paid the rates of jersey and I.O.M. and could afford to spend some quality time with our families and children. After all this is what most of us would want.
The other 2 islands circumstances have been heavily researched and with very similar house prices etc etc they are over 10k better off!
Katie, you are quite right with what you say in that a whole watch will be required to attend this tribunal now. This will, unless carried out at the airport will result in zero category. (It would not surprise me in the slightest if they allowed this to happen).
Again you are correct when using the term striking. Had we decided to go on an all out strike this would have been a much more serious matter creating many more issues in that we could not of provided vital medical cover, first aid services to the terminal and also fire cover to still allow all the other aircraft servicing/fuelling to continue, resulting in our actions compromising peoples safety!
Also that said it has after all taken since the beginning of 2006 for this sorry situation to occur, so to say that we threw our toys out the pram is a bit unfair as it took alot of patience to pursue with dignity and to fight in what was ultimately right. (i dont think that many people would take kindly to being told they would have to be at the beck and call of their employers 24/7 365 days a year for no extra, especially when we actually only get 6 or 7 wknds off a year depending on how the rosta falls).
With regard to blame, well the psrc have resigned and will not even be in post to accept accountability when the result is made. Its funny how all of a sudden the politicians are interested when before hand, the invite of meeting with us to see first hand the problems we were experiencing was rejected as not necessary!!!!
As for student bob. assuming you are away studying (drinking) what will you provide for the island when you get back if you do? Most with the desire to practice their chosen proffesion tend to stay off island as the powers that be would rather pay for non locals rather than provide a local with a good wage.
Others just come back and work in a bank or something completely different to what the tax payer has just assisted them with training to do.
El is obviously very well informed and has hit the nail on the head regarding the fact that no-one will be prepared to attend on their evenings or weekends. This was the case in many of the negotiations with some very lame excuses coming out in the process.
As for english fire fighters well again i agree with El, Guernsey is one of the lowest paid throughout the uk yet it has one of the highest average house prices and cost of livings not to mention that its an island which is why jersey and the I.O.M. have it exactly right.
Islands obviously do not have the luxury to provide another airfield in the event at their being a problem. If for instance Southampton closed then the aircraft could divert to Bournemouth as an example. The fact that we are an island that is so heavily reliant on its harbour and air links is reason enough to ensure that the workers and systems in place are exactly right in order to provide these vital links.
Also why should the locals for go the packages that the non-locals come over here to earn for doing the same job or less. I have a close friend who is a local nurse working alongside other nurses who come over for a 2 year period to pick up a 4’500 payment followed by a further 1’300 payment to do the same job or less. How is this allowed to happen when it comes to shutting down wards because of staffing levels. These nurses can then leave with the option of returning in 18 months time to pick up the very same benefits!!
This island is a mess and i am utterly embarrased to work for our states which is made up of failed business men who could not cut in the real world!!! Lets not forget that these muppets are earning far more than most of us are for the pleasure of destroying our Island!
Nice one mac by the way. Its people like you with ignorant comments that tend to cause conflict and ignite workers to take action or leave their jobs. Its the exact attitude that the psrc has taken which has led to over 30 fireman(a whole station) to up and leave and get a so called proper job! Funny though, i still have not had one person despite the offer, come up and attempt the entrance test/physical. How would you do? Are you capable not just mentally but physically and medically?
Katie again has it right in that each individual group needs to justify their position. Ours was a 20 year old agreement that did not work in this modern day airfield.
Alot has changed with regards to the aircraft using and the amount using this airfield. Also with our management whole heartedly agreeing with our current situation and also getting rebuffed by the psrc group is it any wonder that it got to this state.
Management were not allowed to manage, they knew what was needed and hit the proverbial brick wall being the psrc. How many more reports need to be done to tell our idiotic politicians that their system is broken and at what cost to us all as tax payers.
Bored now, going to go and play some snooker.
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All the critics
Here is a question, albeit hypothetical, that I’d like you to answer: Would you be prepared to fly to or from Guernsey without any form of fire cover?
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David you do not state wether or not Jersey or the IOM allow their firefighters to have second jobs, so do they allow it or not?.
The second job bit is just a red herring, pay people the proper rate for the job in the first place and they wont look for secondry employment in their time off.
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For goodness sake!! airport Fireman if you are not happy with your rate of pay then go find another job, no one is forcing you to work there!!!!
I am facing redundancy in 8 weeks time, you should all count yourselves lucky that you have a job! Let alone your 2nd one! If you can’t make ends meet in the job you are and have to take a 2nd job then try to find something that pays higher in the first place, and in this climate best of luck.
I find this absolutely ludicrous that this situation is continuing.
States sack the lot of you and then see how you make ends meet.
You can not do this to the island again!!
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Pete
I was asking you that very question ! I don’t know the answer. That’s why I was asking you, as your posting implied that you were familiar with the working conditions in Jersey and the Isle of Man.
But my point is that if our firefighters currently earn an extra £20k from second or third jobs on top of their firefighter salary, and if we paid them an extra £10k but banned them from having a second or third job, they would be £10k worse off than at present. Doesn’t seem likely to gain much favour in my view.
That’s why when we compare with Jersey and the Isle of Man its not possible to just compare salaries. We may not be comparing apples with apples if the overall package and working conditions are materially different.
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KS
At last some common sense, well done.
Geoff
I can asure you I am not ignorant, yes I could pass all the tests. I run a medium sized succesful company, most of our staff have been with us over 20 years have taken 5 years to learn their skills (and have to constantly adapt to new methods) and earn considerably less than the AFS which I believe takes 6 months to train for! I should also mention that we have virtually zero turnover of staff.
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Eric, which one are you?
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Mac:
Might be an idea if we get you to teach the States a few things about managing staff then.
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Why oh why to these people go on and on about how awful their jobs are and that conditions are so awful! Change your job!! by not doing so you are just revealing that it is not the job,PSRC or anything else that is wrong except for your own greed in expecting a jobs remuneration package to change just because you want it too. If you want your ‘family’ lives to change then change it! don’t expect the rest of us to change it for you.
By the number of posts that the ‘firefighters’ put on here then it seems that the snooker table and TV has given way to using the computer as a way to spend your ‘working’day! More cost to the taxpayer.
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Why not get Unite’s Ron and our tough guy CM to toss a coin. Heads the firemen get £4,000 more or tails, they get on and do their well paid job.
As president of PSRC, Dupuy Alister Langlois can have the honour of spinning the coin.
It would be a lot better that the fiasco, that has happened up to now.
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David I must say I allowed myself to digress from my main point that two islands, Jersey and the IOM do not seem to have the problems with their airport firefighters that Guernsey has.
They are in the same situation that Guernsey is in depending on one airport. They appear to have dealt with their airport firefighters much better than Guernsey has.
My question was, is it because they pay the right rate for the job?.
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Well KS you could apply for a post at the station and see for your self what goes on. That is if you meet the requirements.
Mac-I am sure the states could do with adopting a few methods from your business plan in order to sort this mess out! This job did once upon a time see people reaching retirement having served 30 years here. If your company was spending 263k per year in order to continually replace staff, could you justify it? The states can afford for this to happen as their answer is to either put our taxes up or borrow or run at a loss. This is exactly why the Island is in the state it is in. For people like yourself, you could not afford to operate in this manner and would undoubtedly go out of business.
I would just like to clarify also that a new recruit has approximately 6 months on station in order to prepare for an intense 6 week course in the uk. Once back, training will continue throughout his 2 year probation right through to his return to the training college after his 4th year. This re-val course certifies his competence and is a C.A.A. requirement. Aviation is a specialist area which is changing all the time which is exactly why their are so many restrictions on our lives! Each Firefighter must Re-qualify every 4 years throughout their career (failure results in no job) also with the added pressure of passing yearly fitness tests and regular medicals all resulting in no job if failed! In most other places I think you will agree that people do tend to pay more for specialists. Unfortunately the states do not recognise this which is exactly why they find it so hard to retain staff in all departments. This goes back to an earlier post where they would rather put an attractive package together for a non-local rather than pay the local.
They paid a fortune to get Proffessor Burchil to compile a report which they chose to ignore as they knew full well that despite his findings, they were not going to pay for them to be implemented.
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Paul, has it ever occurred to you that they might infact like their job, but the pay needs changing? And that if all of them were to quit the airport would be closed for weeks?
Also has it occurred to you that perhaps the firefighters are on a day off or on a break? They are allowed these things you know…
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Paul:
Nice to see you have come up with an original put down for the AFS. I never grow tired of hearing the old snooker table quip, its a beauty, comedy gold.
If you would be so kind as to remove your head from the dark stinky place it is obviously stuck in, you may notice it is the year 2009. As such you will also notice that computers are quite a popular accessory in many Island homes (I have one, and before some clever little cookie pipes up with “£4k well spent then” I have had it for years). This means that people can access the internet and type messages on forums from the aforementioned homes, thus costing the tax payer nothing. Isn’t technology marvellous! You really shouldn’t jump to silly little conclusions. Remember the old saying, something to do with ‘ass/u/me’.
P.S. Don’t forget to mention us getting paid to watch planes and clean our cars all day, those little put downs are equally as rib-tickling as the snooker table one…oh..someone pass me a tissue (someone from my family that is as I am not at work I am at home)
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OMG! I have tried to refrain from writing on this forum as we seem to be going around in circles all the time.
Susi: If i were you i would book your flights quickly before they double in price and come and see your husband – this is all getting so overdramatic it is unbelievable.
The Facts as i am aware are that the States voted to hold a tribunal. How and where is not decided yet. One thing is certain – it will probably cost more than the whole of the airport closure fiasco which happened a few months ago – probably tens of thousands of pounds and will probably gone on for months taking people away from other jobs that need doing! Lawyers, as usual, will be the winners here – the losers will be the taxpayers …. again! According to the media even the Crown lawyers admit they made a mistake in their interpretation of the payment to ensure the airport firefighters agreed to cover short shifts and sickness/training etc. As others have already said, the Burchill report cost a lot of money – was commissioned by the States who then decided that as it didn’t say what they wanted they would ignore it!
The PSRC were dilly dallying around for years: they have appeared to ignore the real problems until then things came to a head. The Chief Minister intervened – and made a decision jointly with the head of the Civil Service HR manager and a Crown Lawyer to get the airport and Guernsey open for business quickly. If they had not intervened this island may well have put itself into a deep recession. What good will a tribunal do and what is the point of it? Will the (old) PSRC resign as politicians if they are found negligent; will the crown lawyers resign if they are found to have contributed to the confusion of whether the money paid was remuneration or not…..NO! It is purely and simply to have someone to blame – but then nothing good or different will come of it!
The firefighters DO like their job, they are well trained and all they are asking for is a 20 year old agreement to be updated and modernised so that they are not unofficially on-call 24/7. What is wrong about that? Why should they be vilified for wanting to work their contracted hours and know that their days off and holidays are free for them to do what they wish, like the rest of us?
Other shift workers may be in a similar position but my guess is if they refused to come into work on their days off then the departments they work in would not come to a halt – or if they did it would not bring the island to a standstill?
As for the health argument HSSD is having to pay millions to pay for agency nurses and other nurses to come over for short periods and they get something like £5,000 carrot (bonus) for staying for 2 years – I know local nurses who are depressed by this as they don’t get the same pay – some are leaving, others like their job so keep doing it – but apparently are not covering short shifts anymore as they are fed up being used. Health gets lots of money thrown at it to pay the wages bill but of course health is an emotive subject.
The Civil Service is full of very hard working individuals with a few who no doubt are shirkers – like any employees in other companies. The trouble is it is wrapped up in stupid rules and regulations that do not allow decent managers to manage anything without running through hoops then having to go through politicial boards who apparently cannot make decisions quickly or sensibly – perhaps because they do not really understand the departments they are working in? It would not happen in a private company – but please do not put everyone in the same group. The majority of public sector workers are the back bone of this island and deserve better!
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Geoff, I would not apply for a job with AFS as I would not want to work with any of you!!
Any person that holds the islands to ransom, strikes on a bank holiday, or does not cover this vital service, ends up giving the island bad review in the public eye are not people that I would want to work with in any shape or form. Sorry you have lost all respect from me.
Something else interesting here, you mention that you used to have longevity in the service there but now you don’t… ummm could be down to the atmosphere the people working there are creating or perhaps poor management!
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KS
Another despicable post.
Is there no end to Guernsey’s myopia?
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Arnald-You’re right it’s despicable. KS probably had travel plans disrupted and is now too emotive to comment with reason.
All the other critics-Please answer my question posted earlier on this thread.
Mac-The AFS probably know a little more about your trade than you do about theirs(if you’re who I think you are). In general I know your comments have been about the management of the issue. I think the AFS have the support of their managers at GA. You seem to think that you are a good boss(I’m sure you are) but could you keep your staff happy if there was an external body contradicting your management of staff?
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