Incinerator protest march next Sunday
Saturday 18th July 2009, 2:29PM BST.
Peter Burtenshaw is organising a march from Salerie Corner to Longue Hougue in protest at Public Services’ proposal for a mass-burn incinerator. With him is wife Lisa and son Harry. (Picture by Steve Sarre, 0807955)
A PROTEST march against plans for a large incinerator will be held next Sunday.
The march, from Salerie Corner to Longue Hougue, is being organised by a local couple, with support from Friends of the Earth Guernsey Branch.
Peter and Lisa Burtenshaw feel States members should take more time looking at other options before passing the Public Services Department’s £93m. plans to build an incinerator.
‘We know that we need something because we can’t carry on sending things to landfill, but we need something that is going to be cost effective, environmentally friendly, multi-purpose, will maximise revenue and something that has no harmful toxins involved,’ said Mr Burtenshaw.
‘PSD’s incinerator doesn’t cover any of these things and it will spew out many toxins, which isn’t good for the population or the environment.’
He said they were not wholly against an incinerator.
‘We need something environmentally friendly, and they need to look hard at all the options and what ticks the right boxes.’
PSD’s plans for a combined sorting and recycling facility and energy from a waste plant have been criticised by many islanders.
Other suggestions have been made, including the Rational Alternative, which would see two micro-incinerators being built.
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Pete, what time is the march? You really need to get this publicised mate. I’ll be there and hopefully hundreds of others too but there’s not much time to ‘advertise’ and we haven’t got the benefit of a slick PR team/spin doctor/advertising and publicity budget as PSD does.
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Martyn
I agree. If this turns out to be a flop because of a half arsed call to arms the ‘enemy’ will use it to show that there is very little interest.
Also vital to any march is a trustworthy counter of numbers so that one side doesn’t claim 5000 marchers and the Police guess at 1500 as happened in the Belle Greve bay protest
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hi mate, it starts at 2:30. I have approached all the media, (bar CTV) and they said they would push out the details. I am in the process of creating a poster and this should be out tomorrow. I am also aware that G-CAN & the Alternative Resolution may be pushing out the march on their planned petition and media releases and this is so appriciated. Of course word of mouth is the best form of informing the masses here in Gsy, with the posters, petition, media, G-CAN & AR pushing the march should ensure that the event is well attended. It is one of those events that all the bases have been covered on the day fate will take its course…….we are doing all we can I can asure you. Give us a call 725844.
Many, many thanks for your support it is very much appreciated I can assure you.
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Everybody who goes on this march will be protesting in favour of more delay, more landfill, more environmental harm, and inevitably more cost. You might aswell carry banners saying “procrastinate now” !!! The GCAN ideas for an “alternative” are shot through with holes and are made by a bunch of amateurs who have no practical experience of the subject – don`t fall into their trap of actually believing there is a cheaper alternative – if there was, not only would they have bid and won the tender in Guernsey, but they would also be able to point to relevant success elsewhere – come on, lets do the right thing and finally lose the debate, invest in our future, in this (actually very small!) EFW and recycling plant proposed by SUEZ.
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close the debate, and get on with it !!
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andrew
I think maybe your the one thats fallen for the PSD and the spin trap.
I`ll be on the march.
Now we have Dan Hubert joining in with the spin? no self interest there i see lol.
Why didnt Flouquet mention any of this before mmm ?
this waste is starting to smell a bit.
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So you won’t be marching with us andrew?
Seriously, it is precisely this defeatist, backward looking mindset, shared by the politicians and civil servants at PSD, that has left us in the unfortunate position where we find ourselves today, on the brink of committing to a £200 million plant that is pure overkill for our needs over the next 20 to 30 years.
You may have swallowed the slick PSD/Suez propaganda but the vast majority of islanders have not. Apart from the odd few like you andrew, who are obsessed with a 20th century solution to a 21st century problem, I have not detected a shred of enthusiasm among my fellow islanders for this awful proposal.
As for it being ‘very small’ and an ‘investment in our future’, don’t make me laugh…
To the other posters, see you there at Salerie Corner, 2.30pm next Sunday.
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Andrew, in a democracy you are of course entitled to your opinion as we are entitled to ours, hence our democratic right to march against the PSD/SUEZ proposal…….see you there then??
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Ray, I can assure you this march will not be a flop because it will not be ‘half arsed call to arms’ but thank you for your concern. We are a small team of three with minimal resources but I can assure you this is not holding us back and we are doing all we can in getting the message out there in order that it will not turn into a ‘flop’. We are confidant that the march is gaining amazing support which will be reflected on the day. May I say that your support is of course just as important as the next supporter and very very much appreciated. I would therefore ask that you also show your support and spread the word thereby ensuring the enemy does not win.
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Pete I hope the march goes well and sends a strong message to the States that the people of Guernsey don’t want incineration of any type. Andrew’s comments are ill informed, FACT – there are other alternatives available, tried and tested and can be operational on Island within 6 months. This alternative will also cost no more than £15 million for a total solution with the least amount of disruption to our daily lives and with no threat to our health or our environment. A facility is currently being built for a European city with a population of over 2 million for them Guernsey is a relatively easy proposition. Furthermore, the parameters laid down by PSD for the tender process were too narrow and did not permit newer cleaner technology to bid. One such waste processor could be sited at Mont Cuet now and could actually reduce the landfill by processing 10 tons of waste an hour. It would reduce the amount of waste processed by 40% in volume (10 tons into 6 tons). This particular processor will also bring a significant revenue to the Island as opposed to the incinerator which will cost us each tax payer at least £10,000 – £200million divided by 20,000 taxpayers (I have checked the demographics and this is the number of people aged between 15 and 65) = £10,000 Is Andrew prepared to stump up this amount of money? let alone the long term health costs physically and financially.
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andrew I am in agreement with you I have a masters degree in solid wastes management, have developed and assisted in national waste strategy and having been born in Guernsey not to mention many years of experience in several countries including the UK, US, Canada, Uganda, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Philipinnes and elsewhere, there are many more positive ways in which the environment of guernsey could be enhanced and protected than a march against a small efw. What does the DEFRA advanced treatment research group say about the alternative options, has this been checked?
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Andrew
Do you not find your comments labelling the opposition to PSD as “amateurs” slightly ironic??
Made me smile on a Monday morning given what labels we could use for the PSD over this!
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Can I suggest that all those against the enormous cost let their own area Deputies know via the e-mail addresses in the phone book
A short message such as ‘Do not count on my vote next time if you decide to put me in debt for the next twenty five years’
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I’m not in favour of the States spending a huge sum of money on the Suez proposal because I’m not in favour of them spending a huge sum of money on anything but I do realise we have to do something about our waste. What worries me about the opposition is that they seem to have the support of all the usual “anti anything proposed by a States department” suspects. These are often the same people who will support any harebrained idea however unsubstantiated.
The opposition may be absolutely right about Suez but a march however well organised or attended proves nothing about the problem one way or the other. It just proves you can drum up quite a lot of people to turn out for almost any demonstration against a States department if you bang the drum loud enough.
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We are buying old technology at ridiculous prices for which we will pay over the top in running costs, maintenance,and parts.
Pete we will all be there with you.
For those who wish to sign an online petition:
1. Sign the petition at: www .thepetitionsite.com/1/guernsey-campaign-against-incinerator
OR
2. If you are a member of FACEBOOK become a fan of the “Guernsey Campaign Against Incinerator” page.
Take time to make the commitment to a Guernsey we can all be proud of. We are not sheep – we have a history where we have led the way.
March, sign a petiton, telephone, fax, e-mail your deputies – we voted for them, it’s time they represent and express our concerns.
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Ted
That made me smile a bit mate. How on earth do you know its the same people? i`m against it and have never marched on anything before.
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Simon
The march isn’t against a small efw plant it is against the enormous cost of an over the top solution. You may know about waste but it doesn’t sound like you know much about finance – you should become a deputy.
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why is it always the anti brigade who make the most noise and then claim they have the backing of all ? It is well known that the anti brigade of any proposal shout the loudest so they get the most attention without having the genuine backing of the population at large.
Also the prevailing wind on Guernsey is SW to W thus blowing any possible pollution away from us and towards guess where Cap de la Hague !!!! nuff said.
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Ted, I am sure that on Sunday 26th there will be those members of the public who have marched before and I am equally sure there will be members of the public who have never marched or even considered marching. I do know one thing,all members of the public who will turn out on Sunday will have made the conscious and democratic decision to march against something they feel very very strongly about and are not marching just for the sake of it and are hoping that our Deputies will take note and do the right thing on the 29th…….
May I ask if you will be on the march?
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Does anyone know who is picking up the bill for the Deputies jaunt to France today?
Might it be us by any chance?
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Why don’t you prove your argument wrong, Ted, by joining the march? You say you’re against the States spending a huge amount of money on Suez. I think you’ll find that this is the chief motivation for many of the marchers.
You never know. You might even discover that most of those at the protest are march ‘virgins’ like yourself. See you at Salerie at 2.30 this Sunday afternoon.
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Of course we all wish it were possible to build a fabulous and environmentally perfect solution that did not cost us a large sum.
But I am afraid that we all do have to face up to the facts and the real world situation:
- we have one landfill that is nearly full and we need to do something… NOW
- all the evidence shows we need a combination of recycling and residual waste treatment to avoid landfill and improve the way we manage our entire waste stream… not just a fraction of it
- the proposal of SUEZ was the least expensive of all the tenders, and it shows cost that are comparable with other projects – if we want to move away from landfill and improve our recycling, we have to accept that doign this will cost us something (you dont get owt for nowt!) this solution provides a means to do so, and reflects exactly the approach that is atually being implemented now across Europe
- the GCAN “alternative” is just a collection of technologies , but not a valid proposal (why not tendered??)- it is a “spoiler” that aims to create confusion, cause delay, and offers false hope that a lower cost solution is available.. where is the experience? who will run it? where are the project references? The costs of such a proposal are totally underestimated and completely unreliable – if this were not the case GCAN would be able to point to tender wins all over!!
- when the GCAN solution makes way for the promised land of the “new technology” , even if we decide to submit to such an experiment (with our tax money!) how much will that cost us? This has not been costed in anywhere.
- where is the EVIDENCE that these alternatives are more environmentally beneficial ? If their reliability cannot be guaranteed, then what eevr is claim will nto be delivered
- the globe is littered with relics of such expensive experiments with unsuitable technology – research and development is important – but is it really what we want to do with public money in Guernsey? or do we need a solution that will actually improve our performance, and ensure we do not have a broken plant and rubbish in the streets!
- it is just plain WRONG to talk about alternatives that can be implemented in such a short space of time – you clearly have no notion of what it takes to develop such a project
- the solution proposed by SUEZ simply WILL NOT result in emissions that will harm health – this is ably demonstrated by referring to reputable health studies e.g. http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733829068
- modern energy from waste incineration and recycling plants like that proposed by SUEZ are used at hundreds of plants all over Europe, and dozens of projects are in the pipeline for each of the next 10 years or more – this is is the future, landfill is old technology
LOOK AT THE FACTS !! THEN THINK ABOUT WHAT PURPOSE IT WILL SERVE TO ATTEND A MARCH THAT ONLY SUPPORTS FURTHER DELAY, AND OFFERS NO PROSPECT OF SOLVING WHAT IS A SHAMEFUL AND WASTEFUL, CHEAP AND CHEERFUL, LANDFILL RELIANT STATUS QUO.
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Sorry andrew, no. You are wrong. We could reduce landfill by installing an off the shelf micro incinerator within months. The technologies are out there, the tender process was looking for the wrong parameters, the research waqs done and PSD didn’t like the outcome.
Now go and read a book about sustainability and then tell me you’re convinced that needing to keep an efw as efficient as possible, and to ensure that the various anti pollution regulations are met by burning it at a constantly high temperature using a waste model based on regressive recycling rates, where there has been no official study into the danger of PMs, and where there may be apossibility that we will have to burn heating oil to keep the thing lit, as well as the fact that the company doesn’t have much going on new business-wise at present, you tell me that people do not have the right to question and lobby their elected representatives to ask them to consider their fears.
You talk about ‘wasteful’.
Personally I wouldn’t trust anything that Flouquet has touched. Considering it will be much the same personnel involved with the initial Lurgi monster, does that mean they were right then?
Will you be making money from this?
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To John:
You are quite correct the prevailing winds are south west. Please see attached maps indicating coverage of pollution streams and particulates from existing power plant and incinerator as well as proposed efw plant and see where the pollutants land. These statistics are derived from Guernsey’s own Met Office using data over 25 years. See: http://www.scribd.com/doc/17562370/Pollution-emitting-from-Guernsey-Power-PlantPEH-Incinerator-and-proposed-EtW
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Pete – sorry but I just cant stop thinking that this is all a waste of time. March all you like-but i think you would be better off spending that time sat down working out an alternative solution, back your ideas with sound fact and put forward your proposal in the strongest possible manner – marching just seems like a way of spitting the dummy out because you didnt get in the states.
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Arnald
Very well put.
I to wouldn`t trust anything that Flouquet spurts out. I am also very concerned about what seems to be to much self interest (we know who some are) from some very vocal supporters.
Simon
Are you assuming that people aren`t capable at looking at the facts and making their own (right) decisions? I think after recent world events people are a bit warey of the “experts” (but there are many honest ones) and their lies.
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Sorry Pete, I’m sure you mean well, but its a fact that Guernsey people will turn up for the opening of an envelope, so any numbers showing up for this will mean nothing.
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Anna I had a look at the web site very pretty but what does it mean? Looks like they have picked a day when the wind was NE. What does it look like when wind is the usual SW also NO values given for the lines on the map.
What is a viable alternative.I have yet to hear any of the antis coming up with concrete proposals other than alternatives are “out there somewhere” or micro burners ie getting back to the old days when we had bonfires in the back garden.Life comes full circle.
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Why would the people of Guernsey want to be associated with a company that brings such headlines. ” Cancer village fights for justice over incinerator”
• Jon Henley in Paris
• The Guardian, Tuesday 17 May 2005
The company is Novergie, a Suez subsidiary, specializing in waste incineration with 40 sites in France. The town is Grignon near Albertville in the French Alps – they opted for an incinerator. Read on – these are the facts. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2005/may/17/france.internationalnews
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I will be on the march on Sunday, but the best protest would be outside the States building on the 29Th July.
The states Deputy’s do not like to see the peasants revolting, especially if they are voters.
I do not want my children and grand children, put in dept by a bunch of financial incompetents. (0-10, Airport,marinas, new jetty, etc.
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Hector you are so wrong when you glibly dish old the tired old cliche: “its a fact that Guernsey people will turn up for the opening of an envelope, so any numbers showing up for this will mean nothing.”
In fact the opposite is true. Guernsey public meetings are notoriously bad attended, which is why it was so impressive that the presentation for the Rational Alternative was attended by more than 300 and the meeting room was full to bursting point.
Contrast that with the two PSD/Presentations, attended by around 100 on each occasion. I should know. I was at all three!
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John. The lines represent those areas covered by the prevaling winds based on a 30 year average.
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The way I see it, and I’ll admit I don’t know the intricate details, but there are several problems with the incinerator.
Firstly, it’s built with a capacity of 70,000 tonnes of waste. Guernsey’s waste is much less than this and is declining. We don’t need it! And since the incinerator wouldn’t be burning at full capacity it won’t be very efficient at all. A 20,000 tonne micro incinerator is sufficient.
Secondly, having a 70,000 tonne incinerator discourages recycling since it has the capacity to deal with everything we could recycle. We need to think about the long term here.
On that note, I believe the suez proposal ties us in for 25 years(?) please, correct me if I’m wrong. In that time, more efficient and environmentally friendly waste management systems will be developed but we won’t be able to adopt them.
Lastly, can I just say, we shouldn’t be worrying about WHERE the pollution ends up. We should be worrying about the fact that we are causing polution when we should be trying to prevent it.
I was going to be reluctantly dragged to the march on sunday. Now I want to go. I want to have my say and I’m encouraging everyone else I know to march too.
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Hector
Here`s another fact, your wrong.
It may mean nothing in your eyes but it does to a lot of us, i`ve never been on a march before but i`ll be on this one.
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Hector, your comment is insulting and patronizing. We have a proud history of opposing rather then appeasing not like some and Sunday the 26th will be no exception.
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Golden Brown, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect you for it. One can never gauge the impact a march will have on our Deputies or gov policy. I do know however that the feeling on the streets to stop this mass burner ever being built is so prevalent that it is on par with the march to stop Belle Grave from being filled in and we all know the outcome of that march and the original march don’t we……….
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As far as I’m aware the cost to build this will be a Treasury Loan. The idea being is that the gate fee will pay back that loan. Commercial waste taking the brunt of the charges and domestic rubbish (notwithstanding any future changes such as Kerbside Recycling) being paid, as we currently do, through the parish rates. So, in short, it really isn’t costing us anything?
Having looked at the French plant that the deputies went to visit this week, I was struck by its size, in terms of how much smaller it was than the Sutton-Hoo like proposal on the table today and was wondering if PSD haven’t gone too far in terms of the ‘landscaping’.
So I do have a couple of questions that I would like answering and they are as follows:
- If Guernsey owns the land and paying for the incinerator, it’s guaranteed for only 2 years and we are paying Suez to run it, then why didn’t we go the whole hog and run it ourselves?
-Some of the recyclates have value, alloys and other metals etc. Who’s going to earn off this? And if not Guernsey why not?
-Comparing the French plant to the Guernsey plant, how much was the landscaping of the 93m?
-If we reduce the ‘mound’ how much would that free up for other industries?
- How much will PSD save from its annual budget by the reduction in waste provision facilities, having moved to Longue Hougue?
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Some points of information:
- the SUEZ plant is NOT a 70,000 t incinerator
- the energy from waste part is around 38,000 tonnes
- there is also a recycling plant of about 20,000 tonnes
- our household and commercial waste arisings are about 80,000 tonnes (excluding all the rubble etc used for in fill)
- we need to recycle more just to reduce what is left just to get down to the capacity proposed !
- it also treats the ash, so this might also be recyclable either in Guernsey of elsewhere
- it will reduce landfill to almost nothing
- such modern efw plants do not cause health hazards – this has been comprehensively studied and confirmed
- the costs you quote for the alternatives are way off, i dare say the SUEZ costs woudl also fall dramatically if they proposed a solution that does not deal with all of the waste, and is made of match sticks!
- the extra cost to each household for the SUEZ plant will be less than a £1 per week – for a tested, reliable, well managed and environmentally sound solution
I ask you again. If these alternatives are so cheap and good, why is it that all over the world authorites are chosing a mixture fo recycling plants and efw – like the SUEZ proposal ?
I wish you well with your protests, but it is a shame that there appear to be so many on this forum who appear to misunderstand or perhaps ignore these objective facts.
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http://www.sortourwaste.co.uk/
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Neil
Like you I wonder why only a two year guarantee. Hardly reassuring about the confidence in their own product.
Even if the cost is paid for by a Treasury loan and repaid in gate fees, the gate fees come form calculating the interest on a loan, and that is likey to be in excess of the £93 million already committed up front.
I notice PSD in their trashing of alternatives stress the importance of all aspects of cost. However, they ignore the cost of demolishing the plant and the cost of building a plant to replace the proposed plant.
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Andrew
Many of us are aware of the facts and that is why we don`t want it. There are many well informed people who are against it, there must be good reasons for that? also i am not even slightly convinced regarding your statement “such modern efw plants do not cause health hazards – this has been comprehensively studied and confirmed” it seems to me there is plenty of sound evidence to the contrary.
I also think taking deputies to look at this one plant and not seeing other alternitives is wrong, in that they could be swayed one way only to find later they may have rejected it. How can they be well informed of other ways by just looking at this one method?.
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Well don’t Peter Burtenshaw.
Andrew..sorry your info (not facts) is the material put out by SUEZ; not “thoroughly” objective; and much heavily peer reviewed countered on 12 areas by research and experts. About the houses again!
SUEZ don’t listen to local community preference on better plasma gasification or gasplasma technology; both proven..equally cost effective as CHPincineration. The is the shame!
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The whole proposal conveniently ignores the willingness of the majority of islanders to recycle. Instead of asking the question “What should we do with all our rubbish?” it should be asking “How can we reduce our rubbish?”
I have recently been to a part of Canada where recycling is COMPULSORY. All rubbish for collection has to go into transparent refuse bags and the refuse collectors will decline any bag that has recyclable items in it.
This is the sort of philosophy that we should be looking at here.
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It seems a shame that people will march against a proposal that could:
- include a very important recycling plant with sufficient capacity to treat many tens of thousands of tonnes of waste
- allow Pointes Laine to be closed
- prevent the crime that is landfill
- bring modern but reliable and demonstrably safe technology to our Island
- provide high quality technical work (we are not all bankers!)
- finally resolve a debate that has been going on for over a decade
… and why do we think it is so expensive? We would get around 60k tonnes (40 efw + 20 recyclign plant) for £ 80 M capital, when Jersey are spendign over 100 M for just an incinerator of 100 k tonnes? This seems very comparable to me, and it must be the case that the back of a fag packet alternative would rise in cost – they admit themselves they have nto worked it up !!
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Spot on Michael.
Fact was, when we stopped the Lurgi monster, we should n’t have started from there. Fact is we should n’t start from here with another mass burn,super expensive incinerater.
We didn’t recycle nearly enough then (5 yrs ago) and we still don’t now.
Until the point is reached when kerbside pick-up is fully operational island wide and commercial waste recyling is compulsory then, far as I can see there is no decision to make.
Can read the Massburner Brigades posts right away in my head
Running out of land-fill etc
But hey
Its the bottom line(in yankspeak)
we have to be looking at
AND we are nowhere close to it yet.
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Mary
I feel you are being seriously optimistic when you refer to “reliable and demonstrably safe technology to our Island”.
You should add the cost of borrowing the £93 million to you figures.
That will add another £100 million or so to the bill.
Put another way, how many schools could Guernsey have with the money PSD seem determined to give away?
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The march was undertaken in good spirit and i hope that the politicians do listen. I heard someone on the radio this morning berating the fact that there were only about 500 people on it but that is significant on a small island – remembering this is the school holidays and a lot of families will be away and the scare mongering about swine ‘flu no doubt kept a number away. Also factor in the number of workers here who have no interest in the long term future of Guernsey as they are here on short term licences.
This monster of a waste to energy plant is not needed – will not have enough waste to turn to energy (see Jerseys info). We should really consider shipping to Jersey for a couple of years while doing more research – as this technology is changing very speedily. There was a jersey politician on the radio last week saying that they needed more waste for their plant to work properly so it could be a win-win solution. Why oh why did this information just leak out at the last minute? We don’t have the money at the moment as as the technology becomes more popular the price will come down so we can afford to wait.
Well done Pete Burtenshaw for standing up and being counted.
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I agree wholeheartedly with this article as well as the letter written in today’s Press by Michelle Wood.I am surprised by the support the Press has been giving surreptitously to the proposed incinerator in view of the likely health problems and the enormous costs involved let alone the cost, not costed, of dismanteling the plant in 25 years hence. The Press is the only opposition to the Guernsey system of Government and does a good job on the whole,but is not popular with the States. It is to say the least, most unfortunate that in this case the Editor/Reporters have not done their research and realised the popular feeling of Islanders against the incinerator.
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