Something very wrong with island
Thursday 23rd July 2009, 2:30PM BST.
GUERNSEY’S problem with domestic abuse could indicate something is fundamentally wrong at the heart of the island’s community, according to the Home minister.
A new initiative to deal with an increasing number of cases will be debated in the States next week.
Deputy Geoff Mahy (pictured) said the quality of work undertaken to produce the plans should be applauded.
He said police had dealt with 229 high-risk cases in 2008 and there had already been 187 in the first six months of this year.
‘We have a serious problem in this island,’ he said at a public presentation on the strategy. ‘I wondered whether there needed to be an extra dimension to this strategy and have someone research the initiating factors that cause domestic abuse.
‘That probably needs a lot of funding but you would be actually getting down to what turns a corner on this.
‘Is there something wrong within our community that is contributing to this, because it is really worrying?’
Hunter Adam, chairman of the Social Policy Group, which has been given responsibility for the Policy Council strategy, gave the presentation and told the audience that Guernsey had seen a rise in reported domestic abuse.
The number of cases more than doubled between 2005 and 2008, rising from eight to 17 per week.
And Guernsey has had four unlawful killings and one attempted murder in the last 10 years that were attributed to domestic abuse.
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You always have to wonder with these things if the statistics are new and the instances are on the rise or whether the same number of domestic abuse cases have been going on for years but without being recorded coz either the support hasn’t been there for the victims or through shear fear!!!
It is truly awful that domestic abuse takes place on the island but Guernsey’s not alone in this field. It is time that something is done about it and will require the full support of the police force coz more often then not it is difficult for a woman to be believed if she’s been raped by a partner etc!!!
I strongly support any research that can help the domestic abuse situation on the island, money better spent then building an over-priced useless airport etc etc!!!
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I think you have a point Guernseygal – many of these types of problems have no doubt been going on for years and are only now starting to see the light of day.
Sadly this particular problem is not alone in that regard as Guernsey has become disturbingly adept at sweeping social problems under the carpet such as youth homelessness, substance abuse etc. We only hear about the tip of the iceberg.
I wonder why that is? Perhaps it’s to protect it’s image as a wealthy offshore financial centre; perhaps it’s because islanders can’t face up to the truth that social problems exist on our “lovely little island” or maybe it just wouldn’t look good on the tourist brochure. It’s probably a mixture of them all.
I have previously called for the Guernsey Press to engage in some solid investigative journalism, expose some of these issues and plaster them over the front pages of the paper, giving them the coverage they require. No sensationalism, just plain facts. I repeat that call here.
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I agree with Guernseygal.
There is something very wrong but I think one of the problems is that Guerns cannnot take criticism of any kind from anyone and therefore they cannot admit when things are not perfect. I have lived in the heart of your community and this inability to accept that there might be any cause for any criticism or to blame everything and everyone but the Guerns is what is hurting so much of the island at the moment.
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I would suggest that alcohol is a significant factor here. Perhaps we need to take some very draconian measures about alcohol such as restricting its sale and consumption to moderate levels. I say this to provoke comment rather than to propose (at the present moment).
The person who just wants a reasonable drink with friends or a meal out would still be able to do that – as long as moderation ruled. Those who need to get drunk to have fun and who don’t cause trouble – yes it would restrict you – but think about it – do you really need to get so drunk for your entertainment? Would more moderation deliver the same entertainment? Think about what it must be like for someone trapped in a domestic relationship to hear the dreaded door open late on a Friday night and know what state their partner is going to be in and what is going to happen.
How do we share responsibility for the bad things about alcohol? By ignoring it as someone else’s problem? Or by accepting that in demanding endless supplies for ourselves we facilitate its supply to those who can’t handle it? Sharing social responsibility means we may have to get a bit less drunk so that someone else avoids a smashed up face.
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One cause is obvious. This island is afraid to admit that there is an alcohol consumption problem, particularly with binge drinking, and I will take some persuading that it is not the root cause.
For far too many people, every weekend is a repeat episode of getting bladdered every Friday night, drinking in the pub all day on Saturday, and going to a club to drink all day on Sunday with their kids allowed to run around outside unsupervised. Is there any surprise then that domestic abuse follows?
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There is no denying that alcohol definately plays some part in domestic abuse, there are a lot of men and women around who are pussy cats when sober and turn into demons after they’ve had a few!!!
But it’s not the only factor, drugs also have a part to play and what about people who have had a tough upbringing, both men and women and have never dealt with the anger that has bottled up throughout their lives and one day they just explode!!!
Maybe Guernsey needs to look at the bigger picture, start accepting that it’s not the perfect place people think it is and wise up a little!!
Do you not think that if people’s emotional problems were dealt with effectively at the time then maybe situations wouldn’t lead to domestic violence. They need to look into the triggers of violence for both men and women and work with that.
More counselling support needs to be provided for both the young and old, it’s clearly better than it used to be but I fear not good enough!!!
I don’t believe that any person is born violent, it’s life that makes them that way!!!
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Valdubon – How do you propose restricting consumption to moderate levels?
How is anyone going to stop me going down to the wine cellar to get my second bottle of Rioja to help wash down elevenses?
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Maybe anyone who commites certain offences related to drink esp violent crime, should be black listed for a period. Take away the cause?
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Helen
I agree with you that problems in upbringing and childhood can cause problems. I won’t bore you with my own but let us just say that while this can explain, it does not excuse, gratuitous violence. You can’t help how you feel but you can help what you do about it.
The let’s-find-something-to-blame culture is on to alcohol and drugs. Yes, they are freely available and no, they don’t help; but no-one forces a person to get smashed out of their brains. Whatever happened to self discipline. We are supposed to be responsible adults. So if someone can’t be responsible then may be they shouldn’t have the privilege of being allowed to drink alcohol.
Before someone sneers that I am tee-total, I am far from tee-total, but I know when I have had enough and I stop. What’s the problem with that? I drink socially, and sometimes for stress, but at least I don’t turn into some disgusting pathetic apology for a human being.
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Mrs P – I assume you mean your own wine cellar, in which case no one can stop you. When I referred to “consumption” I meant on licensed premises and in public. But society can make the effort to do what it can to deal with the alcohol problem, and it cannot be denied that it is a problem. Granted draconian control is not the best way to tackle things and education, dealing with root causes etc are better. But education doesn’t seem to have worked and the root causes are often sociological and won’t be solved overnight.
As I said my post was intended to provoke rather than propose. I admit that control would be very difficult but refusing to serve obvious cases of bingeing, banning discounts and promotions, etc may help. Subjective and judgmental, draconian, unfair on the “innocent” that just want a friendly drink. Any better ideas?
Returning to the subject under discussion, may I suggest another possible underlying cause of domestic abuse – the have/have-not society.
The have/have-not society creates a division whereby those on the have-not side become disillusioned and depressed, leading to the potential to take this out on their partners.
Whilst there will always be those who have more than others, and it is unfortunate but pragmatic that we have to accept inequality in society, we have moved from the mutual respect era to one where an element of the haves want even more, where self-interest creates individualism and so threatens to rise above mutual respect and trust, and where we idolise rather than respect success and status. So social values and trust suffer and this rubs off on the have-nots who feel more and more isolated, vulnerable and lacking in self-esteem. Add a fair sprinkling of alcohol and light the blue touch paper.
And I expect domestic abuse is not confined to the have-nots either? I’m sure there is a lot of conflict in upwardly mobile relationships, caused by the things I have set out above.
How do you deal with that one Mrs P – another bottle of Rioja?
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Valdubon – as a student, and therefore as close to being a professional drinker as it’s possible to be, I think prohibition is a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Why let a few bad apples spoil the bunch?
I like an excessive amount of heavily subsidised lager and alcopops paid for by someone elses taxes as much as the next student, but I don’t feel the need to beat Miss Student Bob afterwards. I accept that drinking might help the symptoms manifest, but the real disease is psychosocial. Let’s encourage, fund and remove the stigma of mental healthcare and treat the real problem here.
bcb – We used to have such a scheme, it was called Pubwatch.
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i totally agree with the alcohol problem on the island and it has been around for many years.
there is no way you can force someone to drink less unless they want to.
people themselves must want to moderate their drinking problem is when drunk they see everyone else as being unreasonable in their mind they are acting in a normal way.
people must want the lifestyle change you can’t force it upon anyone.
as we all know alcohol abuse is common and not very often admitted to even when told by loved ones of the change in personality when drunk and more often than not makes us feel invincible and confident but also again more often than not aggressive which is not a good factor.
i think a drive to help people to change their lifestyles is a good idea give people ideas for socializing without the need to get plastered and aggressive in the process
Guernsey is no different to any small population that drinks a lot on a regular basis ( like ireland for instance ) if you look at domestic violence figures that include alcohol abuse i think you would find they would be very similar
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There has been something terribly wrong for decades! Guernsey needs to move into line with the rest of the world with Human Rights. Abuse has taken place against women and their children and there was no where to go. Nobody would listen to them. The “good old boys” stuck together. No matter how much harm was done to the children involved.
With child welfare services who are incompetant and don’t act for the children’s best interests, there needs to be a professional body from the mainland who can come in and teach the island how things should be done.
Alcoholics should not be given custody of children, especially when they are abusive.
Make them join A.A and twelve step programmes.
Women should have a safe place to save themselves and their children, without fear of further abuse and worse.
Support woman, give them a safe house for them and their children, job training, what ever they need for a fresh start, they deserve better! I know I was one of them.
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JS
“There has been something terribly wrong for decades! Guernsey needs to move into line with the rest of the world with Human Rights. Abuse has taken place against women and their children and there was no where to go. Nobody would listen to them. The “good old boys” stuck together. No matter how much harm was done to the children involved.”
JS, I agree with you 110%; but the problem is that Guerns cannot take criticism (so obvious from reading these ‘threads’) and because, in their eyes, the Guernsey ‘good old boys’ (of whom I have met too many) are perfect so long live the seigneur and his serfs, and human rights are of no account anyway in such a wonderful island, then how on earth do you effect change?
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Valdubon I don’t really see your supposed have/ have not divide having anything to do with it. Unfortunately this is a serious problem throughout society. I actually think that in previous campaigns and press releases this point has been pressed quite hard – that apparently respectable people can be violent behind closed doors.
But landlords serving extremely drunk customers? Yes I agree with you. Too many court cases involving assault seem to follow this pattern:-
“The defendant had been in Pub X all afternoon, had consumed 14 pints of lager and approximately 12 shots of spirits.”
And what to do about that?
Enforce the existing laws.
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This seems to have become a discussion about alcohol consumption and not the true matter at hand.
Granted, alcohol is a catalyst for violence but peoples core problems are what need to be assessed and dealt with. What’s the point in chucking someone in prison for beating someone up and then doing nothing to rehabilitate them, letting them out so they can do exactly the same again!!! People cannot change unless they can accept they’ve got a problem and through counselling and guidance change their mind frame and move on.
maybe we need to get rid of all the fuddy duddy states members who are stuck in the 1930′s and like to keep things brushed under the carpet and bring in new people who aren’t afraid to admit that Guernsey hosts many problems and issues and they need to be dealt with and now!!!
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Most unlawful killings are due to domestic abuse.
Gsy’s is no more worse than the mainland.
There should be an aducational campaign for potential victims.
Have dealt with this first hand and it relies on the victim having faith in the Police.
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Darren
‘Gsy’s is no more worse than the mainland’.
What is this obsession with the mainland; the UK? I see this time and again. ‘Oh well! The mainland is worse’. ‘Oh well we’re better than the UK!’
What has the UK got to do with it? Guernsey is not even part of the UK. Never mind the UK. Guernsey has a problem.
Now I know Guerns find this hard to admit but actually the island isn’t perfect. I agree with Guernseygal’s comments. Read them, Darren, and think about them; and never mind what the UK is or isn’t doing.
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Quote JS: “there needs to be a professional body from the mainland who can come in and teach the island how things should be done.”
I certainly agree that Guernsey needs to get it’s house in order however I’m not so sure about your solution. The UK social services have hardly covered themselves in glory either. In fact getting them over here to help us sounds a lot like getting the blind leading the blind to me.
The UK media is full of cases where, due to the incompetence of the social services, children have been abused and even killed. Take cases like Baby P – they don’t seem to be able to get their own house in order, what makes you think they can fix ours?
I agree some much needed training is required however I’d rather get people in to train our social services who have a track record of excellence – does anyone have any ideas?
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Student Bob, I don’t always agree with your comments but on this occasion, I couldn’t agree more, well said.
This is a funny old thread, everyone is saying “people of Guernsey” as if its us and them, remember that we are all “people of Guernsey”
The other thing that gets me here is that the report publishes 229 high risk cases in 2008.
Now let’s think about how many people go to town on the beer every weekend. Shall we say 2000 a weekend plus people like Mrs. P who enjoys her bottle of Rioja at home, shall we add another 500?
So that’s 2500 per weekend (and before you say anything, those figures are based on nothing but opinion, but I think are quite reserved).
So in amongst all those people, which in my estimation is 130,000 (night) town visitors a year, is 229 really that many? I would suggest not. Perhaps, alcohol isn’t the main issue here but instead idiots who want to knock their significant others around drunk or not. So that leaves 129,771 town goers a year that do not result in domestic violence incidents and that should not face drinking restrictions because of the actions of few others.
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Ben
I don’t think drinking restrictions are a necessary solution at all, except for those who find trouble as a direct result and whose lives are being ruined as a result (prison, loss of job, loss of relationship etc). Some are alcoholics and so need medical help. Others are not alcoholics but who manage to find trouble after a certain level has been drunk. The latter group need to be protected from themselves, and more often than not the public need to be protected from them.
Personally, I fall asleep when I’ve had too much to drink instead of it having the opposite effect, but that’s just pot luck.
The ability for alcohol-induced troublemakers to go onto a voluntary blacklist to keep themselves out of trouble is hard to argue with in my view. If they are not allowed on licensed premises and not allowed to buy from off-licences or supermarkets then their chances of drinking their way to a prison sentence for drink-induced behaviour should surely be heavily reduced>
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Student Bob
I was thinking more in line with making it an offence to consume rather than just stopping someone from drinking in a pub.
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Few are in any doubt that alcohol plays a major part in many crimes including domestic abuse. It always annoys me to see drunkeness being given as an extenuating factor by Advocates in the Guernsey courts. I think drunkeness should be regarded as an agravating factor when considering the level of guilt and the sentence handed out. If necessary this should be enshrined in the laws related to violence.
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Who writes the GP’s headlines? Have they no consideration to how they make Guernsey look to the outside world. ‘Something very wrong with island’,'bomb scare at the airport’,kidnap victim breaks pupils arm with baseball bat’ and it goes on and on. Locals read between the lines and know the real story behind the tabloid headlines, tourists do not. Every day we are having to explain that Guernsey is not unsafe with villains on every street corner. Come on GP do your bit for the tourist industry and stop portraying Guernsey as a crime hotspot.
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Doesn’t anyone else find it remarkable that on the same day we say ” Let’s stop domestic abuse’ a few pages later a man is found ‘not guilty’ when a woman has the guts to go to the Police, the Police follow it up, a doctor says ‘ her wounds would not have been caused by consensual sex’. The rot is deeply ingrained, all the way to the top.
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Yes there are some that drink themselves to oblivion and go on to cause trouble after a night in town but what about the many who regularly sit at home with their bottles of wine to ‘comfort’ them. You only have to go to any recycling site and watch the number of wine bottles that are deposited to see that an awful lot of alchohol abuse is going on in many homes.
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The problems probably stem from the large amount of inbreeding which has occurred in the island over the years
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Popsicle
Another thing i find remarkable is that the case was tried, he was found not guilty but you, knowing all the facts? know he is, how is this?.
If he was/is guilty then ofcourse lock him up but what if he isn`t?.
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I suppose we are all right in the way we think about the ways of people; that is democracy, and I once made a vow to uphold that vow.
However when one reads in a newspaper how the Bailiff remarked about the swiftness of items during the German occupation.’
Now that really brought a wry, bitter smile to my face. (THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION) they made the laws and our controlling committee simply signed the papers.
The mention of ‘Grange Lodge Hotel brought another of those smiles; for that is where the German command had their offices, I was a young lad at the time, and worked for that xxxxx committee, I carried messages to and from Grange lodge Hotel to Elisabeth college – the seat of that controlling committee.
All postings was in English and was easy to read on the way to and from.
I had a friend in the Illegal news sheet, GUNS (illegal to the Germans) I gave many items to them and they printed them, alas I was caught. Dismissed by the Committee as they might get involved, as told to me by Louis Guillemette secretary to the President, he was a great feller.
So there I was, I came in the next two years to know Grange Lodge Hotel very well,
So to seat them the States in Grange Lodge Hotel would be by way of thinking Most appropriate.
M.B. Woodland-You’ll get no flak from me, Maybe as a present some nice Carageen Jelly.
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Katherine Stewart
i assume that was a joke?
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May I ask bcb, in what manner do you ask if it’s a joke,
I am deadly serious in any thing I put on these blogs, so perhaps you can explain your meaning
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Banshee
Do you want your handbag back now? Aaaw, bless.
The UK has a police force that runs an equivalent legal system in terms of the identification of an offence in terms of domestic abuse. Further, it has officers trained to the same level as those of Guernsey officers and Victim Support is run in the same manner.
The reason I mention the mainland is that it is a useful terms of reference.
Basically, domestic abuse in Guernsey is, per capita, far less worse than the UK, which is a good thing. However, it must be recognised that people in Gsy are insular by nature and due to the socio-econimic and geodemographic nature those people may be even more reluctant to present and submit claims of abuse.
Banshee – go and get a surgeon to remove that rather large chip from your shoulder.
Domestic abuse in Guernsey is relatively low, however low is still too much – especially if you are the woman on the receiving end of the mental and physical abuse.
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Oh dear Katherine Stewart;
What a bizarre remark to make.
Now think carefully;
Perhaps 100 years ago there might ; is a Might have been inbreeding.
However since then the French the Poles the Liths, the Germans, and above all else the English.
Now if one can think of those Nations mentioned especially the English; well there are no pure English either: fact Germany had a good slice of that befolkning
Firstly they stole from the Brits and intermixed. then came the Vikings the Romans before them and so On even the good old USA: so No inter breeding there.
So why would a little Island having been over run by bigger bullying Nations been inter bred:
I’m afraid youn have read the wrong books, ours was always the Good Book.
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Eric
I was responding to Katherine Stewart`s post not yours.
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Too late I discovered my mistake; and because of that I had to wait for your reply which I knew would come.
Nay I, can I, please beg your pardon and accept my apology.
No man is infallible as my wrong posting proves,
God bless and hope for forgiveness xx
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Eric
God bless and hope for forgiveness xx
well how can i refuse with such a lovely response :) i forgive you xx
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I agree which must of what has been already posted, Student Bob initial comments made me fall out of my chair laughing, oh those college bars…….
But never the less, these figures don’t explain whether its man on woman, or woman on Man, or even same sex relationships. Are these reported or actual convictions. I can’t remember seeing 187 cases in the press this year.
Also I do believe that a lot of friction come from the workplace, even though there is still inequality in women/men packages most women are now working, and a lot in good jobs, and to be fair are also good at these jobs. So I think Men are finding that the I’m the breadwinner argument stands no grounds, I also think that women have also learned to stand up for them selves in the workplace (and other environments) which some men can’t deal with.
At the end of that day, whilst drinking and drugs have been around for a long time the more level playing field between men and women is a new battle
Oh PS Yes I male
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Oh dear Fred; that must be Flintstone, to say that (the field between men and women is a new battle.)
Never heard off Delilah, Munroe. and you know ‘Come up and see me sometime.)
Yes it’s a battle, but not new..
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Ted,
Being drunk already is viewed as an aggravating factor in sentencing in cases in Guernsey. It is certainly not seen as mitigation – although perhaps it may have been in years gone by.
I don’t think advocates do offer excessive drinking as “an excuse” in domestic violence or other cases; but it will often be noted in Court in a plea in mitigation to help explain what might have happened.
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You know Christie:
I did have to smile about that last post of yours, about lawyers.
A Grandmother was taking flowers to a burial place with her little granddaughter.
She toddled a bit behind. then came to her gradmother and asked-
“Grandma, can two people be buried in the same grave?”
“No of course not, why do you ask?”
well down there is a grave, and on the headstone it says “Here lies a man, good and true and honest, he had been a lawyer all his life.”
That’s why I asked Grandma-
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Yes there is and it is one of the reasons we now live in North America, not that any place is perfect, but I am only now finding how my culture has hurt me terribly.
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I fully agree that alcohol/drug abuse is a large factor that contributes towards domestic abuse, if someone has a violent streak then alcohol/drugs will accentuate this. But if someone is going to abuse drink/drugs how do you stop that, seeing as they are the only ones who can?
We must take into consideration the VICTIMS personal circumstances. By this I mean, are they able to get out of the situation they are in relatively easily? For example, recently, sadly, I have witnessed 2 cases of how not having local status can push people into a corner, forcing them to stay with their abuser rather than leaving them.
If the victim has been on the Island for a while they have built a life here, they have a job, friends, family, possibly children too, and walking away may mean their only option is to go back to their country where they have NOT built their life.
What percentage of people are in this situation? If there is already help for these people, then it needs to be better publicised. ANY HELP available must be better publicised, so people feel there is someone to talk to when the time is right for them.
There are so many things that turn abusers into abusers and the concentration seems to be mainly on them rather than our victims.
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Darren
Actually, Darren, I think it’s you who need the surgeon to exorcise your shoulder chip about the UK.
Why do you always compare Guernsey with the UK. Why not France which is , after all, the Guern parent country, and nearer to you than the UK as well.
It’s a fatuous argument anyway. The Spanish have a much higher domestic abuse rate than the UK. Should the UK simply say the Spanish have a higher rate of domestic abuse so that’s ok. We’ll just sit back and do nothing.
Which is what Guernsey does every time there is a hint of criticism. Someone else, usually the UK, is always worse than Guernsey so you can rest on your laurels and need do nothing about the problem.
Aaaw bless, Darren. Remind me to hit you harder with my handbag next time.
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