‘Lose Gatwick and finance will go too’
Saturday 25th July 2009, 2:30PM BST.
THE finance industry could leave Guernsey within a month if air links to London were lost, according to an influential report.
And if Flybe pulled its flights to Gatwick it would cost the island’s economy around £80m. over 30 years, the Policy Council has been told.
Leading consultants York Aviation met industry representatives as it examined whether the runway needed extending.
‘What was made clear throughout consultations is that many firms in the financial services sector could withdraw in a very short timescale (less than a month was quoted) if they find that air service provision does not meet their needs,’ said York Aviation.
Directors warned that poor quality air links, particularly to London, could make trading in Guernsey too difficult in comparison with other locations.
‘It was stated firmly that organisations would be quick to react by relocating to other jurisdictions offering similar tax benefits but with easier access to global markets,’ said York Aviation.
‘In our experience, it is unusual for company directors to be so explicit about the importance of air access to London but this is reflective of the specific needs of an island economy.’
In 2007, the finance sector accounted for more than a quarter of all employment in the island.
Chamber of Commerce president Paul Luxon said the Gatwick link was critical.
Island Life
All about Guernsey
Ambassador of the Year 2011
History & Heritage
Visitor Information
Guernsey's government
Campaigns
Voice For Victims
Voice for Victims is a campaign aimed at promoting the rights of those affected by child sexual abuse.
This is Guernsey
Guernsey Press
Useful Links
Bye then!
Report abuse
As with all things in Guernsey there is not enough competition, and the reason I think no one apart from most Islanders wants a runway extension is because we would be able to get more carriers in/out of Guernsey and to be able to travel direct to more holiday destinations ie south france, spain etc therefore cutting out the overcharged costs of having to travel to london for flights as not everyone goes to london for business but as a necessity which also, most times means an overnight stay. Ask the Islander
Report abuse
It is not like FLybe is the only air operator.
If Flybe was no longer on the London route I expect other airlines would jump at the chance on running more flights to fill the slots.
Report abuse
Would that mean houses would be much cheaper again if the banks pull out?
Report abuse
What is all this scaremongering? What is behind all of this?
Let the Finance go if they feel that air links are that important. In this day and age internet and IT provide great connectivity. Cant business be done over the phone and email? Or is it that corporate travel is looked on by these people as another perk. It would also solve the waste problem with population dropping ten thousand. Enough housing for everyone and affordable. Let them go. As York said it was “unusual for company directors to be so explicit about the importance of air access to London.” There s more to this , mark my words.
Report abuse
cheerie
Report abuse
So Long, Farewell!
Report abuse
I seem to recall them saying something similar when the Heathrow link was lost.
Report abuse
Unsubtle spin at it’s finest.
Does anyone seriously think that Flybe will drop flights from Guernsey ?
Really ?
If everything is so bad, why is Blue Island going for a licence to operate aircraft that could be used to fly into London City Airport ?
Report abuse
another article to kick off the age old Finance Good v Finance Bad battle royale. Ding Ding, round 100!
Perhaps we should adopt a tradition from the “good ol’ days” where two opposing armies each nominated a champion who would fight one-on-one to the death, the winner decided the outcome of the battle…..a bit like David and Goliath.
We could all meet up at Cambridge Park and it’s a fight to the death. If “Goliath” Finance win, they’re here for life, if “David” anti-fianance win, all banks are kicked off the island and their offices are turned into tomato vineries.
Perhaps Don King would do the promotion?
Report abuse
Complete rubbish.
Finance wouldn’t be going anywhere. Where else will the banks find another government so completely willing to bend over for them??
Report abuse
No it won’t. If it were that unstable in Guernsey, no one would invest in our legal scams.
Is Guernsey proud to be held over a barrel by children like this? Look at the vitriol that the firefighters get, and yet these suits can make any threat they like, attacking the ‘Guernsey way’ at every opportunity and crippling the non finance sector with their tax burden.
I think their bluff should be called.
Within a month? I challenge them! Maybe a month to get the first meeting about it organised.
It would be a godsend if we didn’t have that Mancini going on about being ‘attacked’ all the time. Poor thing.
Maybe Guy Hands can step in. Ha ha.
Report abuse
Maybe not a month, but unequivocally less than a year.
Think logically. Finance businesses employ significant marketing resources here. Business doesnt just fall in our laps. We compete with many other jurisdictions and we have to out and find clients. So where are the clients? London, the Middle East, the Far East, mainland Europe. Without a Gatwick (or Heathrow) link, our job becomes impossible. I personally made 46 return trips to Gatwick in 2008, only 5 of which were not business related. Not only do we need air links to find new clients, we also have to go to visit our existing clients. It is naive to think that can be done by phone and video-conferencing. Clients find it hard enough to get to Guernsey without a Heathrow service. If the alternative of us going to visit them, which is how we have had to adapt, is lost then we are stuffed.
I have absolutely no doubt that all marketing roles and client servicing roles based in Guernsey would be lost without a Gatwick service, unless replaced by a Heathrow service, and that’s not going to happen.
Those who hope for the end of Guernsey’s finance industry would get their wish very quickly indeed. Yes, very cheap houses indeed would result. House prices are governed by supply and demand. We would very quickly see huge supply and no demand with the island in terminal decline. 70 per cent income tax rates for those fortunate enough to still have a job to fund the infrastructure for the rest. Utopia for a few. Total misery and bankruptcy for the rest. Those with a £250k mortgage on a £350k property would still have their mortgage but the house is now worth £100k. Sorry, you’re bankrupt.
Be very careful what you wish for.
Report abuse
we need the finance sector who else can provide ringers and quality candidates for the next gen election in 2012 and our next CM…….sorry President….
Report abuse
What a lot of losers:
By crumbs the way these people try top fool us how important they are.
We managed before and we’ll do it again. Then perhaps we can get out Island back as we want it.
Those who do the scaremongering are instigated by our boys in the golden chamber of law making
My advice to them and other scare mongers is this.
It’s better to remain silent and thought to be fools, than to talk and remove all doubt.
We might feel the pinch for awhile, but the freedom is worth it.
Report abuse
I just do not understand how this almost Black mail of aircraft is allowed to carry on; Fly be. Aurigny.
Why doesn’t authorities get in touch with the only airline showing a profit-
That airline Is RYANAIR
When will the people of Guernsey realise, that these politicians only feather their own nest, they don’t give a tinkers cuss about the people.
their welfare is no 1 priority, wake up get rid of those who do not work for betterment of Guernsey.
Report abuse
David
The point is that there is this arrogance that drives these stories. Why is there this assumption that what is ‘needed’ by the finance industry is not necessarily what is ‘needed’ for Guernsey. Guernsey is not the finance industry. It is here because our democracy allows it to be. It is a favour by the people of Guernsey.
To use language that would suggest that if we do not do exactly what the finance people want then they will leave is an insult to the privileges offered them.
However, there is competition, and the industry would suffer if no London link was maintained. But carriers have been and gone. Isn’t this just a repeated hysteria?
Report abuse
Wow I can’t believe some of these comments.
I’m not saying it s good we are reliant on a single industry, but we are. No matter who you are if we lost the finance industry without a replacement we ALL lose.
Our other option would be our tourist industry which has had little investment in recent history and that would also require air links.
We have all contributed to this situation and only have ourselves to blame. We don’t see people marching in protest when yet another hotel closed, or when a small business offering services to holiday makers ceases trading due to lack of customers.
Report abuse
Zero 10 costs Guernsey in excess of £80 million eac h year, so £80million over 30 years is chickenfeed.
I can’t see either Flybe or Aurigny walking away from the lucrative Gatwick route.
I can’t see why the panic or is it just a pathetic attempt to get the taxpayer to fork out for a longer runway?
Report abuse
Stephen
You haven’t of course mentioned what it would have cost us NOT to adopt Zero-10 ! You make it sound as we had a choice of doing nothing with the tax system. We didn’t.
I know hardly anyone who believes in the current need for a longer runway. It might or might not be required in the future, but not at present. In my view it is not essential, although repairing the runway most certainly is.
Report abuse
Ryanair? If you want Ryanair you’re going to have to extend the runway.
As for profits, I think you’ll find Flybe are also doing rather well at the moment.
Report abuse
Having advised a number of clients on setting up Guernsey tax resident businesses it’s somewhat depressing to see a lot of these comments as I will indeed be very busy shifting them over to Jersey or elsewhere for little benefit for my mistakes in recomending the island should the main London link go.
Very simply, to make Guernsey tax effective, you need to have your meetings held on Guernsey, not by phone or over the internet, physically in Guernsey. Make it impossible or very hard to do this over the course of one day or at very short notice and the whole thing becomes impossible to work. So yes I fully agree with the findings of this report and can only hope in injects some common sense into the island.
Report abuse
Dear David, Jersey has not done zero 10, nor has the Isle of Mann,they have not affected their financial business.
If Ryannair was to come to Guernsey it would need Hotels to bring people too, as we are down from 25,000 to 4,000 bed nights, that would be impossible. Also with bigger planes there would not be as many flights.
Since air traffic is down by about 10%, and planes are half full at best why do we need a longer runway.
It appears to me, the same small group, who foisted zero-10 on us, are at it again with the scare mongering.
Report abuse
Certain individuals in the finance sector are obviously not content with our island already giving away millions of pounds in lost taxation every year through the zero-ten scheme to supposedly safeguard the finance industry, they seem to forget those on even the lowest incomes are already being taxed to the hilt to safeguard their highly paid jobs.
Maybe its time they chipped in a few million themselves to safeguard the Gatwick slots seeing as it is the finance community that stand to lose the most.
Report abuse
Capt Oveur:
Of course you are duty bound to say as you have said; and commendable of to so do.
However If Ryanair; did come to the Island then it would be for every ones benefit, not just who wish for a few nights of Night-clubs.
If it had to be lengthened, then so be it, but with decent airlines;
Not who just push up prices because they have a monopoly.
Report abuse
The more flights the more jobs at the airport, for shops for builders for everybody. Think it’s about time the Government should rule out this… In the other hand it’s possible to cut sea links… good. Then what next – Islandscoachways, taxi… Welcome to the Robinson Crusoe style just to make some people happy who against finance sector that is sinking too. Let’s back to tomatoes and cows. But again it doesn’t depend on somebody opinions. It’s about profit. If there is demand for the flights then there will be the flights. The bottom line is the number of passengers.
Report abuse
David J
Please get your facts right. Both Jersey and the Isle of Man operate a Zero-10 corporate tax system. The only difference to here is re. the timing. Jersey was a year later than us (from 1 January 2009) whule the Isle of Man was slightly earlier.
Why did they do it ? The same reason as us. We had to have a core standard corporate tax rate of 0% to protect our respective finance industries. Not going to a standard 0% was simply not an option.
I think you are getting confused with the argument over whether the “10″ should be “20″, which was a separate argument altogether. In either case we were getting a 0% standard rate.
Report abuse
I have never read such ill-informed opinions in my life! If the finance industry leaves Guernsey where would we be? There is no agricultural industry to speak of. The tourist industry is not sufficient to keep the Island going. People really do not come here for the shopping do they? The finance industry keep this island going and that is a fact! It directly or indirectly employs a huge number of people on the island and where would they get work if this industry collapses? It really is time to get your heads out, honestly. And blaming the States for every little thing is ridiculous….they have adapted to the changes in the world as best they could to keep this Island going. If you could do better, then get elected! But there will always be this chorus of idiots who allways know better, but never do anything themselves. Stop moaning about everything and contribute for goodness sake! Do you really think that tomatoes and milk are going to keep this place going….GET REAL!
Report abuse
Peter Smith
In view of mounting suspicion of the finance industry generally, the wholly inaccurate forecasts by the Channel Island governments, and the pig ignorant arrogance of the rich who benefit most from the regime, the public have a right to question its validity for Guernsey.
Maybe if the States had invested the good years into diversifying our tax receipt income by instigating a less blinkered approach then there wouldn’t be the vitriol heard around the island when talks of cutting services, driven by a craven Press and backed up by unpopular Deputies.
Anyhow, the industry will shrink, jobs will be lost and we need to be doing something about it, not just hoping that the ‘masters of the universe’ will be bountiful and ‘trickle down’ their gambling proceeds for us mere mortals.
A good start would be to abolish the free ride that the elitist schools get. Abolish the networking, abolish the establishment ties and have a real democracy.
Until we experience some humility there will always be extreme opinions the opposite way. Hubris and all that.
Do you think that people are generally more or less stressed in the last ten years?
Report abuse
Pete Smith
No we don’t Pete! But the amount of cash saved on bonuses, greed and more greed, I think I’d prefer a new way. Can’t you think past money?? Has Guernsey never survived without money…? I think so. Reckon you’d miss your little luxuries heh Pete?
Report abuse
How do you get from the finance industry to elitist schools? It is a fact of life that there will always be people who have more money than others. To blame someone for being succesful and to expect them to pick up the tab for everything is ridiculous. The rich on the island subsidise the “the poor” way more than the benefit they recieve. Have you seen rich people getting unemployment grants, social grants, etc.? Yet their pro-rata tax payment funds these activities. The idea that you can not do a days work and yet expect to be given money for doing nothing and breed like rabbits is odd to say the least! But that is Guernsey….blame, blame, blame! If it’s not the foreigners it’s the rich, or the states, or anyone else who has something that others don’t. A comment was made about housing earlier that is also quite perplexing….yes it is expensive and yes there are too few houses available, but do people in the finance industry compete for the same houses as the less fortunate? I do not think so! And these houses are sold to them by locals anyway…who take the money and smile! Here is an idea…dump the finance industry, get people out of work, lessen the tax income, decrease the amount available for benefits and capital projects, do not refurbish and upgrade schools etc. and hey presto, all is well! That’s the Guernsey way!
Report abuse
DT….as far as I now you need money to pay for things! Or do you prefer to pay for things by bartering? Maybe some tomatoes for a day in school? How about some free milk for the people on benefits instead of money to buy food? YEAH RIGHT!
Report abuse
If we “lose Gatwick”, how will the finance go to wherever they are supposed to be going too?? Will we see a barrage motorboats and yachts shooting out the harbour with PC’s under one arm – francticaly tapping away on their blackberry with their free hand?
Report abuse
DT
Whether “Guernsey” could survive without the finance industry’s contribution is very subjective. I know my answer. But you ask whether the Guernsey people could survive without money ? Not a chance. Negative equity in their properties, so technically bankrupt. No jobs paying enough money to finance a mortgage to buy the (cheaper) houses. No regular trips off-island, no meals out, no nights down the pub, no holidays, no car, no flat-screen TV, etc etc . All the things that maybe 90% of island residents (yes, its not just the “rich” who have all of those !) now take for granted. Massive unemployment, no demand for tradesmen, no retailers left (as there’s no money to spend in the shops), a mass exodus of the young seeking job opportunities elsewhere. Oh yes, the end of Guernsey as we know it.
For those left behind, all bankrupt except for those without a current mortgage, good luck to you. Less traffic on the roads, no aircraft noise, a ghost town in St Peter Port, no need for any new schools to be built, no visitors, 70%-plus income tax, and very importantly no pensions for you in 25 years time as there wouldn’t be enough of a working population to pay into the Social Security fund to keep it going.
That might truly be utopia for some, but that’s very much what you’d get unless you can think of some other alternative industry which is capable of generating enough annual revenue, directly and indirectly, to replace the finance industry.
Report abuse
Arnald
How is a school possibly “elite” when everyone has an equal chance to pass an exam to go there on a scholarship so that their parents don’t have to pay school fees ? To me, that’s the very opposite of elitism !
Report abuse
DT….what would this new way be then? Things are not free so how will you pay for schools, benefits, capital projects, pensions, roads,etc.? The last time I checked these things cost money. Bartering went out a few centuries ago. And before I get accused of being involved in finance…I am not.
Report abuse
Hahah, it’s good to see citizen Arnald showing his true colours.
I’d like to know what free ride elitist schools get? Surely it’s the state schoold who get a free ride from “elite” schools, as parents who decide to pay for their childs education do not receive any tax reduction.
By the way Arnald, I love the term “pig ignorant aroggance of the rich”!! Brilliant…..
Report abuse
Mr Smith
Your satement “To blame someone for being succesful and to expect them to pick up the tab for everything is ridiculous” in iteself. No one is suggesting anything of the kind.
Your further comment “The rich on the island subsidise the “the poor” way more than the benefit they recieve” is also worthy of comment.
Does this mean, for example, that those without children should not contribute towards schools, child benefit etc. After all they get less out of the system that they pay in.
But you will say it doesn’t work like that. Or would you?.
Report abuse
Stephen John said:
“Does this mean, for example, that those without children should not contribute towards schools, child benefit etc. After all they get less out of the system that they pay in.
But you will say it doesn’t work like that. Or would you?.”
What about the example that those with children should pay less tax as their children are the next generation of tax-payers that will shoulder the burden of looking after the older people in the population.
By the way citizen Arnald you need to remove that massive chip from your shoulder and relax a bit….
Report abuse
Stephen John…I am not suggesting anything like that at all. All I am saying is people make comments about the rich all over the place stating that they just take and do not give. I find this to be a very simplistic view to take. It is simple mathematics….20% of 100 000 pounds is more than 20% of 30 000 pounds…so that person pays more tax! Everyone should pay…regardless of how much they earn. How you benefit from that is a social issue. Your point about the schools is therefore not really a realistic one.Just a question or two…Are the majority of “wealthy” kids in private schools? Is this schooling free? If the answer is yes to the first and no to the second (which I assume it is)then surely it can be argued that the “wealthy” are subsidising other for schooling by way of taxation that is not used for their own children. It is up to the powers that be to use tax monies as say see fit and where the need is greatest, and no-one would suggest that one should not contribute to the fiscus, but at least have the honesty to acknowledge the contribution! This attitude of rich people exploiting this Island is utter rubbish!
Report abuse
Mr Smith
So your comment “To blame someone for being succesful and to expect them to pick up the tab for everything” is a gross exaggeration and unrealistic.
I made the point as you were blaming others for exaggerated statements.
I’m sure many pensioners and others who pay taxes would find your claim that the succesful pick the tabs up for everything as being wrong.
Report abuse
Have the life choices for low earners improved in the last ten years? Are they able to access better education? Health? Are there more opportunities now for them to achieve distinctions? If you took a look at the local legal profession, or the top civil servants, how many would be from the 11+ ‘failure’ schools? (I’m speculating on the answer here to suit my argument, if someone knows it would be quite interesting if I was proved wrong).
The point I’m making is that the democratic process is being eroded by propping up a system that looks after the minority rich, a system that they control to further their material aspirations. That reduces the opportunities for the majority and so they are less able to change the direction that policies are going.
I’m not anti-rich, I’m hardly poor, but I am anti the braindead argument that the world would collapse if we started to treat society as important to all and not just the top few percent. Only education can create good democracy.
The elitism is obvious, David, that is the ignorance. No amount of dressing up private education can negate this. It is proven.
Peter Smith, it is the ability of those that bleat on about maintaining a corrupt status quo to suit an increasingly hysterical minority to call for public service cuts and job losses rather than pay a few more disposable quids themselves that gets my goat. That’s not communism, that’s reason.
Report abuse
Im not sure why so many people seem to think just because you work in the finance industry you get a kings ransom. Most of them don`t get really big salaries and a lot of workers in other industries earn a fair bit more. In fact i was suprised to learn how little a lot of them do earn.
David you scare me by telling us just how bad it will be without the rich. Next time i see one i shall bow and offer to lick their boots and thank them as it is obvious to me you think we are not capable of survival on our own and are leaching from them. We are here to serve you oh masters :)
Report abuse
A La Perchoine, Mon Vieux!
Well said Eric, Bring back the good old days and un shackle us locals from all the double standards….
Report abuse
Eric, your comment “Why doesn’t authorities get in touch with the only airline showing a profit-…Ryanair” will shortly be blown out of the water by a second airline. It is foolish to make facts up. Flybe HAVE announced profits, and Easyjet are expecting to announce profits.
Report abuse
Bcb
I’m not talking about us being without the “rich”. I’m talking about us being without the 8,000 or so jobs in finance, of which around 95% see held by people earning maybe plus or minus 15% of Guernsey’s overall average wage. Those 7,500 or so jobs would not exist without the finance industry.
Report abuse
Oh byes Captain Oveur;
Yet what I cannot understand is when you say they’ll soon be blown out of the water; (they operate land planes not seaplanes ) however B.A. sack hundreds of workers: Profits are down:
So it’s wrong to quote the ‘News TV’ they made those statements, not I.
However I quoted them here;
As for fly be making profits, that is what it’s all about: they make their profits on the users of their airline. There are no others except that other line that don’t care anyway, as they subsidised by the whim of one man.
All businesses with a monopoly make profits, it stands to reason; fly with us and pay up, or you don’t fly
Is that a reasonable way to manipulate people, full well knowing they have no choice; I call it a scandal.
Report abuse
Eric, I didn’t quote BA, but yes they have made redundancies I agree but what point are you trying to make by quoting this, they stopped flying to Guernsey years ago. My point was that you said “only one airline will make a profit” – this is false.
Yes Flybe are making profits, but lets try and put Guernsey into the context of Flybe profits. They currently operate in excess of 75 aircraft, of which I believe only 2 possibly 3 are based in Guernsey, are you trying to imply that they only make their profits from Guernsey routes? Now if you think they are charging you monopoly prices take a look on their website at comparable length journeys on their network, if you compare a Guernsey flight with another flight booking 1 month, 3 months or tomorrow, you will see that prices are very similar.
People do have a choice. But be careful because if Flybe did pull out do you think Aurigny would keep their prices where they are, especially considering they are making huge losses.
Now people please can you all do a bit more homework before quoting “facts”.
Report abuse
Capt Oveur
No you didn’t mention B,A.
But you did say that Ryanair would be blown out of the water.
To me an intimidating answer
However you quote all the fleet of Flybe; Yet because you are the only company that does a ‘run’ albeit at times frustrating, which you answer, at least to my way of thinking with the “Like it or lump it” no skin off our nose.
Had another airline been available (note I say airline) you might just have to change your tune a bit.
I still maintain you have the customers by the short and cur.lies
Report abuse
Well Capt.Oveur.
Thank you for agreeing with me about monopolies, well that is what it sounds like in your reply, and I quote
“Do you think Aurigny would keep their prices where they are, especially considering they are making huge losses”
To my way of thinking that means monopoly choose the prices to suit them, never mind those who have no choice.
Report abuse
If the finance industry leaves Guernsey a lot of values will come back into the island-and less greed- it will be like the 50s again without the tomatoes tho! the good thing is that it would bring house prices down and guernsey would really be for the guernseyman again- it won’t happen as guernsey is not governed by the guernseyman anymore.
This is from a guernsey girl living abroad because her kids can’t afford to buy houses there- and seeing family is important- bring in Ryan air- great airline! would be good if the runway was big enough- nough said!
Report abuse
Mo very true in what you say Arnald you are spot on.
Report abuse
Arnald –
Perhaps you should consider that the amount of privately schooled people in high ranking jobs is due to better education and thus better qualifications rather than their connections or status.
Granted this might have been paid for by their rich, so of course money grabbing and evil, parents but hey that’s capitalism for you.
Well said Peter Smith, if we want to see the collapse of a healthy economy in Guernsey, by all means remove the finance sector.
Report abuse
Arnald
Its always informative to look at this time of year at the page of university graduation photographs. There are always a high number of graduates who went to one of the secondary schools before going into the Grammar School sixth form for A Levels, and then on to university. It demonstrates very clearly that “failing” the 11-plus and spending 5 years at secondary school is not a barrier to future success at all.
Where we have to focus more is on how we teach those children who will never be academically-minded enough to go on to further education, and who will be better off being steered towards trades and vocational courses generally. I don’t know to what extent the secondary schools are able to deviate from the national curriculum to give more emphasis to such courses, but that’s definitely something to consider.
Report abuse
abc
The results are not better because the children that attend there are in anyway better.
If people got behind the public sector instead of listening to the drivel propogated by the Press and self interested politicians then all parents could put the pressure on other schools to raise standards.
Instead people automatically assume that the college teachers are in some way more dedicated, that the pupils are somehow more able and the result is falling opportunities for the majority.
There is no reason why more children could not excel. You are condemning the majority as being thick. That is sociopathic ignorance.
Again.
Report abuse
Its all well and good saying that if the finance sector leaves, Houses will become cheaper, more non-locals will leave and all the traditional values will return along with our long lost cousins who cant afford to live here anymore. Quality of life would be fantastic.
But what about the plethora of local born and bread Guernsey people who would be left in negative equity by such a circumstance, attempting to support a huge mortgage with a job salary likely to be a fraction of what they currently earn.
The amount of locals who would have to declare themselves bankrupt would be massive.
This is just 1 nasty side effect of the finance sector leaving. I could state many more, but you get the picture??
But there would be less cars on the road eh??
For the anti-finance brigade, a lot of local people jumped into bed with the finance industry when it first appeared. These people have done very very well for themselves so the Guerns cant have it both ways.
I feel for the people who are disadvanted by it and are disporportionately outweighed by the few who made their millions, but the finance sector has become too ingrained and too fundamental to the island to be removed, its a sad fact, but a true one.
As far the article itself, pure page filler……. I’ve heard the follow up article “When the sun goes in, the temperature goes down” is a corker.
Report abuse
Arnald I think you’ve misunderstood what I was trying to say.
Capitalism, you pay for what you get. If you don’t pay for an education you get a state standard education. You do pay for one, economically it should be of a higher standard.
And I believe that this may be true of the colleges and the grammar school.
I attended one of the colleges on a scholarship and generally found that the majority of privately educated pupils excelled above the scholarship pupils, with a few exceptions of course. I don’t know if this is the trend, just my experience.
Now we need to think why this is. Intelligence is inherited. If you are intelligent you are more likely to make more money, thus be able to pay for private education for your children. Voila!
I’m not condemning the majority as being thick, I am merely saying that college students tend to be those with the most potential to excel, which could explain their dominance over higher ranking positions.
That is not to say that those in states schools are not just as intelligent and could not do just as well.
Circling back to the point I was originally trying to make, the rich are not running the island, the most intelligent are. Which is not a bad state of affairs really.
Report abuse
abc
I simply don’t believe you. The most intelligent?
I know lawyers that are so socially unaware that describing them as intelligent would offend my the intelligence of my dim cat.
Knowing the right people and passing exams bought by private tutors is no measure of intelligence.
Read the UK report.
Report abuse
Arnald
I can agree with you (that’s a rarity) that being intelligent doesn’t necessarily mean that one possesses either common sense or social skills. I have come across qualified accountants who can pass any exam under the sun, but can barely do up their own shoelaces.
But you do seem to have rather a large chip on your shoulder about private education. Why shouldn’t people pay for their kids to be educated if they so choose ?
My child went to private school because that’s what I chose, but I didn’t get or ask for a tax rebate for not using the state school system. We had to make other sacrifices to pay for it and I don’t regret it for one moment.
We pay our money and make our choice, but please don’t criticise parents for making their own free choice whether or not to use the taxpayer-funded education system.
Report abuse
abc,
I am not sure if this is your intention or not, but your last comment stinks of elitism.
Report abuse
The Man –
Yes on re-reading my comment I see that you’re right.
This wasn’t my intention in the slightest.
Maybe I can blame my private school background?! (jk)
Report abuse
Can I just point out that I DO NOT work for Flybe.
Report abuse
Eric, I’m terribly sorry but I just do not understand what you’re trying to say. Text can be a dreadful means of communicating and I find that the way you use grammar and punctuation compounds the problem.
This is not meant to cause offense, it’s merely highlighting the point that I can’t respond to your comments as I don’t fully understand them.
Kind regards
Report abuse
David
Indeed, and I am not so ‘blinkered’ that people should be able to choose to pay. But there should be no assistance from the state if that is the case.
It is the relationship between the established ‘powers-that-be’ and the private institutions that needs reconstituting.
The reality is that the state provides a first class education and it is only the perception of ‘privilege’ that drives the middle classes to believe that private is better. If they didn’t believe the hype then the kids with the motivated parents would excel in state schools and so encourage the less motivated folk to appreciate the taxpayers effort, and everyone would understand that a good education shouldn’t mean forcing the parents to stress about financial matters.
Stress drives down the standard of living. We are perpetuating shackles, that cash could be spent in the wider economy.
That would be better capitalism.
Report abuse
I really do wish that people will wake up and see that the world has changed a bit. This idea of “Geurns” against the rest is simply idiotic. This island needs all the money it can get, and the finance industry is the biggest single employer on the Island…fact! If someone out there can give me a better alternative to the current set-up please say so…but instead there is this constant bleating about the good old days, or Guernsey for locals, or the “evil” finance sector or greed, etc. If your intention is to have a decent quality of life with opportunities for the next generation, then all forms of business on the Island should be encouraged and safeguarded, including the finace industry. Have you seen all the closed shops in town lately? Is this what you want? But I suppose we can do without the +- 8000 clients that the finance sector provides to our businesses, or the tax they pay. And these are just the people that are directly employed in this sector. What about all the businesses that sell them equipment, furniture, office supplies etc.? But no, some want them to pack up and leave! What are you on about? OH well…some will never understand. Donkeys indeed!
Report abuse
Here Here Peter. People who say the finance sector should go are speaking out of ignorance. I have a daughter who went on to further education in order to find a better job when she left. She has been looking for months now and still no success because with the present climate there is far too much competition out there and not enough jobs. Without the finance sector it would be a mess! The old days have passed, our future lies with the finance sector now. thats a fact. I dont see thriving farms and greenhouses anywhere do you? or big non-finance businesses taking up residence. As you say if the finance sector folds here a good majority of other businesses would be finished. Come on guys show a bit of common sense. We need to help and encourage anyone who wants to run businesses here. Of course our air links are all important, not only to the finance sector but to all locals. Our poor island is hard enough now to get on and off of without less choice.
Report abuse
Arnold
The kids with the motivated parents (assuming that the kid himself/herself is also motivated) DO thrive in state secondary schools. They get good GCSE results there and go in to the 6th Form at Grammar School and then, usually, on to university.
The Colleges offer scholarships to those who pass their 11-plus, so its not just the elite who pay to go there. I know many, many parents whose 11-year olds “failed” their 11-plus and who paid for their kids to go to Elizabeth College, Ladies College or Blanchelande, making big personal and family sacrifices to do so. They aren’t the elite….but they chose that path for their kids. They also knew that their kids would not be out of their depth. There are many kids whose academic ability comes through more at 13 than it did at 11 – those tend to be the ones who end up in the Sixth Form at Grammar after attending one of the secondary schools.
But you also have the other extreme. I knew of parents of kids when I was at primary school in the early 1970s who, when asked to put down their choice of secondary school for their children on the forms which then existed as (1) Beaucamps, (2) Grammar, (3) College. Why ? Because they themselves didn’t go to Grammar or College and didn’t want their kids going there either. Yes, these were families living in States Housing estates and they had absolutely no ambition for their kids. With the odd exception, attitudes like that were not going to see their children encouraged to be academic at all, so what hope did those kids have ? Take a trip to some of our States Housing estates today. Do you honestly think things have changed ? Many parents couldn’t care less about their kids – they don’t know and don’t care where their kids are in the evening or what they are up to, so where does supervised homework come into play ? It simply doesn’t.
For me, the most important thing is that those kids who go to the secondary schools, and who have the right parental support and interest and a certain degree of academic desire can thrive, get good GCSE results and go on to do more academic qualifications if they want to. Unless I’m badly mistaken, that’s exactly what’s happening. But there remains an underbelly of kids with no parental support and no academic interest who attend school simply because they have to. Those kids need to be guided towards certain trades and non-academic careers, otherwise they are bound to leave school with no qualifications and limited job prospects and, most likely, will be the ones who find trouble in their late teens. But you aren’t going to change those kids into academically-minded high achievers if neither they or their parents are remotely that way inclined. That has little to do with the school. The teachers can support and encourage and do a great job, but they have limitations.
Re-designing the local schools system is not the answer. The Grammar School and the Colleges produce excellent results, and the Grammar School’s results include children from the secondary schools who enter the 6th Form. It ain’t broke, so don’t fix it. But by all means keep exploring ways to improve the prospects of those at the secondary schools who need help. Steering them at an even earlier age to vocational trade-related syllabuses at school may well be the answer.
The system has nothing to do with wealth and nothing to do with elitism. Yes, those who go to the better schools will probably do better in life than those who don’t, but its by no means a “given”. They succeed because of parental support (including sacrifices)and encouragement, because of their peer group, because of their upbringing. You certainly don’t need to be wealthy to possess any of those attributes, and there are many, many families who scrimp and save on limited incomes to give their children the best education and upbringing that they can afford, still living from month to month. Those are parents who don’t live down the local pub drinking their wages away while their kids run wild around the street corners getting into all kinds of juvenile trouble. How many quality hours a week do those parents spend with their children helping them with their homework ? Sorry, but changing the education system is not going to make any difference to those children.
In many respects, very sadly a child’s educational prospects start and end with how their parents look to bring them up, and that goes across every single “wealth bracket”, as evidenced by the trouble that spoilt rich kids manage to get themselves into by their 20s.
Report abuse
Peter Smith
At not one stage have I said the finance industry should leave. I think it should be honest and transparent at local and global levels, but that does not mean that the industry cannot belong here.
David
Of course the education issue is not so black and white, but your main thrust, I believe, is wrong.
There is a belief in the pernicious lies spread by the popular media that the public sector is a failure. It is even more apparent in Guernsey than it is in the UK. At the first instance that a state school seems ‘worse’ than the experiences of parents from the colleges, then they will move mountains to have a piece of the promised land.
It is everything to do with elitism and nothing to do with the reality of potential educational standards.
I know, because I have to make those decisions for my children, and the overwhelming and utterly depressing concensus from my peers is that the state education is ‘substandard’ and that the colleges will offer a hope for their children.
There are other ways of streaming the best kids without enforcing a ‘I’m better and richer than you’ attitude. If you don’t believe that that happens I suggest you take a trip to talk to the mothers of Melrose and Acorn kids.
Tragic.
Report abuse
I have no problem with the current school situation at all. If you wish to do so and can afford it then send your kids to private school. If you cannot or won’t, then don’t. Is the solution then not to raise the standard of the state schools if they could be? I struggle to understand this reference to elitism….if you worked hard and made some dosh, then well done! Enjoy the money and the perks. If you sat on your bum all day, claiming benefits and then complain about how unfair life is…GET REAL! There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving your kids the best that you can and I for one will never expect anyone to apoligise for that. And before I get told that I am a rich elitist, I am not rich at all. I just don’t think that the wealthy owe me anything. If you think they do…maybe a bit of jealousy is at play?
Report abuse
Yes Peter, pay for it. No subsidy, no tax perks for the school.
But you are misguided if you think there is no elitism. Guernsey stinks of it.
And the regressive tax system in Guernsey does mean the rich ought to pay more. You may be happy with a widening wealth gap but all intelligent people know that the wider the gap, the more problems there will be.
And I am neither poor, wanting nor delusional. It is straight, objective logic.
Report abuse
Dovid
By the way, it is ‘broke’ because kids are leaving school with too little skills for Guernsey’s requirements as a centre for offshore finance excellence. We have a shocking number of barely literate and numerate adults.
Proud are you?
Report abuse
Arnald
What on earth are you talking about ? Are you trying to say that everybody in Guernsey’s schools, regardless of intelligence levels, should be able to get a job in the finance industry ? The finance industry represents about 40% of Guernsey’s GDP, not 100%. Another 40% comes from other areas of activity. There are no end of opportunities for plumbers, electricians, carpenters, retail staff, catering, the motor trade etc. So what if they don’t have the academic skills for a job in finance ? They can make exceptionally good careers as a tradesman in Guernsey if they are prepared to complete an apprenticeship. The opportunities to make a good living here as a tradesmen are probably as good, if not better, than anywhere in Britain. Look around you. Speak to local tradesmen. They haven’t had a bad last 20 years have they ? Coincidentally, that period correlates to Guernsey’s very successful finance-industry led economy of the past 20 years. Strange that, isn’t it ?
It’t not a question of being proud or not proud. Are our educational standards woefully short of those of the UK ? I doubt it. Everywhere has children who are far less literate than others. That’s life. What we need to do is produce opportunities for such children for when they leave school, and as far I can see Guernsey provides many such opportunities in vocational trades. Why is that a problem to you ?
In any society there are people who are cleverer than others. There are always people who are not cut out to do office work, or are you saying that everyone should be the same ? Your argument is a bit like saying that its simply not fair that we can’t all be professional footballers, regardless of ability.
Report abuse
Dear David from confused David.
As i said Jersey and the Isle of Mann, did not do a zero- ten, but did a 20 instead like Charles Parkinson wanted for Guernsey.
If we look at Jersey, they also did GST, which brings in 90 million and since they delayed zero-20, by one year, they had the benefit of 200million + extra.
Isle of Mann is also zero-20, and also has about 200 million from VAT coming back to them.
Report abuse
Oh what’s the use….blinkers, blinkers, blinkers!!! Your back must ache terribly from that chip you carry. And to think…this started with an article about airlines leaving the island! Welcome to the death of intelligent and to the point debate.
Report abuse
TRY STANSTED THEN better for London than Gatwick
I regularly travel to and from Guernsey via Stansted (Aurigny) which has many advantages over Gatwick including the ease of getting to the City (via Stansted express to Liverpool Street) which is much more convenient than ending up in Victoria using the Gatwick express. Other benefits are Stansted airport is smaller and quicker to get in and out of than Gatwick.
The only trouble with Stansted is Flybe do not go there and Aurigny only have one flight a day compared to 5 a day to Gatwick. Why they think makes sense puzzles me.
Aurigny should promote the advantages of Stansted as being the easier access to the City of London, currently they only seem to promote it as the gateway to the East of England.
I am continually amazed at the apparent obsession with the Gatwick route – I would use Stansted every time in preference to Gatwick to get in and out of London particularly when visiting banks and lawyers in the city as I do often.
Report abuse
David
We have a high GDP that does not reflect our advancement. We should have zero illiteracy if we were allocating the riches properly.
We are therefore wasting money on something.
What are our priorities? Tax perks or educated kids? You propose to leave the system alone, I say that it is detrimental to our future.
If the people in power come, for the most part, from those families that have already been privileged, how can they possibly form policies with any substance for the hand-to-mouthers that do exist in Guernsey. You used a reverse snobbery example, this is entirely true. It has been beaten into people that their expectations are to be low because of their perceived social standing.
It is real and it does happen. That is elitism. Stop saying otherwise.
How I’ve managed to bang on about that on this thread i don’t know, but hey, that’s what working in the private sector is like. All shirkers and time dodgers, little productivity or loyalty and two bonuses a year. Nice.
Report abuse
David J
Sorry – you are totally wrong. Please check your facts. Neither Jersey nor the Isle of Man went for zero-20…they both went for zero-10. As per here, a 20% rate only applies to utility companies and rental income from local real estate.
Yes, Jersey brought in GST (as we should here in my view), and Isle of Man has massive revenues from VAT. But I assure you that neither of them have a zero-20 corporate tax system.
Report abuse
Arnald
I’m happy to disagree entirely with you. If you think the island is ruined by elitism then I’ll leave you to it. You’re seeing things that I don’t believe exist, resulting in massive paranoia and a huge chip on your shoulder.
I can’t for one moment think why you would want to live in such an awful place or work in its apparently elite and corrupt finance industry.
Report abuse
Peter Smith
The joys of teh interweb, I’m afraid.
As for blinkers, how exactly is having apoint of view blinkered? Your argument holds no water, you’ve proved nothing. My argument is based on research (by others) and the views of educationalists, and personal testimonies from teachers, governors and employers.
It’s something I happen to take seriously, so your cap doffing laissez faire is as blinkered as my belief in the public sector’s ability to provide the best possible services for the widest uptake regardless of school ties and who Daddy knows.
That’s how society will progress, not by fawning to the greedy.
Cheers.
Report abuse
Sorry, but I just don’t share your views. And please show me the research regarding elitism and all the other “facts” you rely on so much. I think I’ll spend my money the way I like and will happily pay for a good education for my kids…if that makes me elitist or greedy, so be it! And here ends this utterly useless conversation. Till the next time something interesting comes along…maybe banning all foreigners so that the donkeys can rule? :)
Report abuse
That’s OK Peter, just as long as you don’t expect the tax payer to subsidise you when there is a free option. Your loss.
Report abuse
i thought this was about flights?
my own thoughts are that without cheap and regular
links off the island, we will die a slow and painful death. the island is not geared up to start growing again. does anybody know how much it costs to run a heated greenhouse? you cant compete unless you heat, so you have no choice but to.
it would cost a fortune to start from scratch, and it is no good without staff…where do you find cheap local staff? tell me..i would love to know.
Report abuse
Baphomet
where do you find cheap local staff? tell me
Maybe the local staff don`t regard themselves as “cheap”
We often hear of people complaining that the residents wont do the jobs that the guest workers will do, because theier lazy haha. I would love to know who in their right mind would work for peanuts when there`s a better offer on the table?
slightly off topic, sorry :)
Report abuse