Cobo strikes back
Thursday 6th August 2009, 2:01PM BST.
A GROUP calling themselves the Guernsey Boys yesterday used skip lorries to clear 24 derelict cars from Cobo car park.
It took just over an hour to remove the vehicles using eight trucks.
Siam Builders, Skipco, Paul Rouget and Thompson Motors were just some of the businesses that had arranged to turn up at 2.30pm yesterday to clear the area.
Some car windows were smashed so chains could be passed through to lift the vehicle but the men cleared the broken glass.
John Thompson, from John Thompson Auto Restorers, said they had had enough.
‘It is bad for the island as a whole,’ he said.
‘We were apprehensive about this, especially after what happened to Mr Paint, but we had to do something.’
By 3.45pm, the car park was clear of derelict vehicles and the group celebrated in the Rockmount.
The ownership of the land has been in dispute since 2007.
Thomas Holroyd, 38, claimed he acquired the land when he bought a fief from his mother in 2006 and at one stage put boulders in front of the entrance and when these were moved parked the cars.
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Well done gents! The childish behaviour of Holroyd and friends has gone on far too long.
If Mr Holroyd had a serious claim surely he would have taken this to court already rather than create a dangerous and inconvenient eye sore in one of Guernsey’s busiest tourist areas. Let’s hope the cars do not return but I won’t hold my breath.
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Well done Guernsey Boys you have done something the States should have done months ago, just let us hope this clown doesnt try to put more back.
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It truly is put up or shut up time for Holroyd now. If you own the land, prove it, if you dont, leave it.
Fabulous job by the Guernsey Boys, lets just hope some farcical legal wrangle doesnt ensue, similar to the paint debacle.
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As a True Guernsey man I would just like to say well done to all the brave lads who finally had the guts to do something about this situation.
Once again, well done!
If I every meet up with any of you I will definitely shake your hand and buy you a well earning drink.
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Disgusting … how can anyone condone vigilante and I’m quite sure illegal measures to resolve this.
Whats even more disgusting is the Police stance that it’s not illegal …. does that mean I can go down North beach and use a baseball bat on the windows of a car that has a parking ticket ?
Is this really sending out the right messages on how to resolve a conflict, hmmm my neighbours hedge looks shabby maybe I’ll go cut it down.
I also know that at least one of the vehicles removed was nothing to do with the conflict and was actually for sale by another party!!
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This is excellent news, well done! I can’t believe this has taken so long, and that members of the public were the ones called on to exercise the kind of common sense that the States were clearly lacking! I’m just glad that no-one was seriously hurt before the cars were moved.
And as for Mr Holroyd, his reply to the Douzaine’s very reasonable letter shows the petty nature of the man.
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Well done and Thank You to those who removed a terrible sight and a dangerous hazzard to the public.
I just hope they dont start to reappear again, its now up to the States to make sure the dont on the grounds of public safety.
The individual who is behind the dumping of those scrap cars has nothing but utter contempt to public safety.
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If Holroyd is eventually found to be the ‘legal’ owner of this land the States must enact a simple piece of legislation to buy it for the people by compulsory order for £1. That’s all this mean spirited chancer deserves.
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Has anyone seen my car?
I only left it for an hour!
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Perfect. Feudal solution for a feudal problem.
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well done, at long last locals are standing up to the threats of nothing being done by the powers to be, lets hope this is the start of the locals kicking back,we have a weak and gutless goverment, so d.i.y
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I think we have, at last, a matter on which 99% of the island population can agree.
Congratulations to all involved.
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Positive action! However, after last time lets hope that the cars belong to the ‘right’ person.
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Well done lads – people take the initiative while the Politicians & Civil Servants sit on their hands….
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Good work!
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well done to the Guernsey boys!
Guernsey police the eyes of the public are upon you. We don’t want to see any jobsworth or money making prosecutions.
Power to he people!
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Excellent news – chappeau, boys!!
I just goes to show that community action, unhindered by health&safety or concerns about being in a position of authority and getting sued, is often the best way.
This has made my day.
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well done boys!
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I congratulate the Guernsey Boys. This area should not be used as a dumping ground.
If Mr H wants local businesses to rent the car park for (what was figured) a high amount and they rejected it, why does he not apply to the States to build a decent car park and then try and charge for its use.
This would at least clean up the area and he will very quickly identify that it would cost him a fortune in maintenance fees and collection fees.
Hopefully he would then sell it
I can’t see him obtaining permission to do anything else with the land. If it is his anyway!!!.
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We were at Cobo last night and it looks so much better – well done boys!!
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Yes well done:
Bring back the ‘Beauties committee.
If they do come back with wrecks then surely these police, who are supposed to be sleuths as well, so they should be able to trace any wrecks deposited there.
If and when they do find the owners then the fine should be so enormous that it might deter others.
However it is about time the States in their “WISDOM” ha ha.should find a legal manner of disposal. If it were that they had to be shipped out, then the owners of the wrecks should meet at least half the expense or more of the rid up effort-
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Well done everyone!
Although I did mention this idea on here ages ago and someone told me it aint as easy as that…. well it obviously was, like I said if you want to get rid of something and its bothering you that much then you will do something about it…
I’m glad to see that these people have gone out of their way and done something for nothing. Although I do realise it shouldn’t be down to the public in the first place.
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Well done boys,,,
jamie
does that mean I can go down North beach and use a baseball bat on the windows of a car that has a parking ticket ?
No you can`t, dont talk rubbish.
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Hurrah to the Guernsey Boys!! Reading the news of this in the paper made me laugh out loud as well as the response from the ignorant (and perhaps I don’t just mean ignorant of what was taking place) “landowner”.
Fantastic long awaited response to bullyboy tactics that were a risk to public health and safety. And they cleaned up after themselves too – what heroes these men are!
I am still chuckling…..
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Well done Guernsey Boys, you took action where the States were so weak. You should all become our next States Members the perhaps we would get things done, instead of talking nonsense for months and doing absolutely nothing. To the post from Jamie, sadly my friend you are so out of step with the rest of Guernsey, your comparison with North Beach is plainly a stupid example. Holroyd has never proved ownership of this land, we know who owns the North Beach Car Park, same as this piece of land..The people of Guernsey Well done Guernsey Boys you have done us proud. Best piece of natural justice done in Guernsey in a long time!
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Where were the ‘Emergency Committee’ when they were needed here? This was costing Guernsey’s reputation dear, just like the fire fighters dispute. The States are toothless when it comes to real problems like this
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Now of course we all know what’s going to happen, don’t we ?
99.9% of the population will support yesterday’s action, and yet the police will be prosecuting those involved for their technical crime.
“Can’t have people taking the law into their own hands, you know…where will it end” ?
If the police do take action then I think the uproar will be massive. I’m pretty certain that they won’t end up having to pay any fine out of their own pockets as the public will see to that, but it could be a real test of what happens when such an obvious wrong is unable to be resolved by the law.
Let’s see if Mr Holroyd is brave enough or foolish enough to bring a civil action.
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The ends do not justify the means. If Mr Holroyd is right or wrong, these men are criminals for moving and presumably damaging these cars.
Criminal acts seem to be praised in Guernsey. Next you will want all the UK people to leave their open market houses, because they never had the right to buy them after all….
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Can someone please explain to a feeble-minded student how smashing up other peoples cars and then towing them away is legal?! (seeing as how the sergeant who filmed the entire incident claimed that “nothing illegal” was going on)
I’m sure the Landsbanki Action Group would be interested to know too, you know, Lyndon parks up at North Beach, comes back an hour later and there’s a breezeblock shaped hole in his windscreen….. Or Carla McNutty returns to her car and finds a zimmer frame rammed through the window…..
And does vigilante mob rule only extend to cars? ‘Cos this guy spilt my pint the other day…..
Another proud day for Guernsey.
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Well done, Guernsey Boys. I was appalled at the state of the car park when I was forced to park in that area a couple of weeks ago and walk my small daughter through it. If there currently isn’t a law to deal with this then there should be. In my book it’s just fly tipping in a public space. These vehicles had no value to anyone other than those who were gradually stripping the cars and they were an eyesore. If the police are stupid enough to take action then I think we should all turn up in Court to support the lads
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These guys did exactly what was needed, they did the right thing for the right reasons, and sometimes vigilantes are exactly what the world needs. The law should have sorted this problem out, it is obvious what holroyd was doing, PROVE its your land, or get off the island and stop ruining it for the rest of us. That land has been used for years without anyone having a problem, now he’s making a problem out of it and damaging the island. Any legal action taken against the guernsey boys will meet with a massive public uproar and any sentence on this group will be irrelevant in the eyes of the public. Why our rubbish government never takes any action when its needed is mindboggling, what is the point of a government that does not represent the people, common sense has prevailed. A pint to anyone from this group that i meet. I back the Compulsory Purchase of the land for £1, or even take the land from him by order of the Queen.
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We need executives that actually EXECUTE their jobs on this island.
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well done rodney brouard and the rest of those who cleared up this mess that no one else would do its about time we guernseymen stood firm
the donkey is kicking back at last
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I too am amazed at how this can be legal….
I could park my car on John Thompson’s land and leave it there. Yes it is private property, but that doesn’t give John Thompson (or anyone else) the right to smash the cars up and take them away. As soon as someone smashed the window of the car, they are causing criminal damage. As soon as they take the cars away, they have committed the offence of TWOC (taking without the owners consent).
People are saying that they hope the Police don’t do anything if anyone complains, however it is not up to the Police. Mr Holroyd could now ring the Police up, report that his 24 cars have been stolen and the Police would be “duty bound” to investigate.
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If there is a landowner out there who wishes to complain about this action then let him step forward and bring a claim for removal of property from his land. Mr Holroyd won’t because he knows that his claims to the land are spurious.
If a car owner wishes to complain about the loss of a valuable asset then I am sure that a quick whipround will produce the £50 needed. Actually, forget that, the cars were actually a liability as it would have cost money for the owners to have them taken away to the scrapyard. So no, the owners have not suffered a loss.
A beautiful example of pragmatism and calling the bluff of those that have sought to hold the island to ransom.
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well done rodney brouard and the rest who helped clear cobo car park that those in power could`nt or would`nt do at last the donkey kicks back
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well done rodney brouard and the rest of those who helped clear up cobo car park. you did what the states or anyone else did`nt do at last the donkey kicked out.
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well done all you guernsey boys.everyone was moaning but no one was willing to make a stand against this bloke.if he doesn’t like it sell up and move.as for negative comments you are just putting things out of text.no one would damage property worth keeping,these were purely scrap cars with better value for scrap.now we can walk in safety with our kids and not risk injury.
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Yes, Censored Bob, it IS a proud day for Guernsey, though not in the way you imply.
Jamie – your ‘messy hedge’ isn’t a danger to passers by, is it, like the broken glass and rusty metal that was scattered everywhere.
And if Holroyd puts more cars (and I think there’s already one there) then our Guernsey Boys will do the business!!
Well done fellas, you did us proud.
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Can you tell ME Toby and Censored Bob how childish tactics of leaving abandoned cars, (which I may add proved to be dangerous to the general public and were assessed to not be worth a penny!) because Mr H did not get his own way put Guernsey in a better light????? It is hardly the same as general vandalism and I think you are small minded and idiotic if you dare to compare it to such acts. How about you sit there oohing and ahhing (as that clearly seems to resolve issues) whilst some of us get up and do something about it.
Surely the crowds yesterday proved how much support The Guernsey Boys had!
Indeed!!! Another proud day for Guernsey!
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Ridiculous OTT reaction from the ‘ends don’t justify the means’ brigade.
Using the term ‘vigilante’ to describe the Guernsey boys’ (brilliant) action is totally wrong for a start.
Free online dictionary definition of vigilante: ‘a person who takes it upon himself or herself to enforce the law’. The Guernsey boys were not trying to enforce any law at all. They were simply cleaning up an awful eyesore.
Furthermore, they were not ‘smashing up other peoples cars’, Censored Bob. What they were doing was taking away discarded, useless, unwanted, worthless pieces of junk that had been wantonly dumped on a piece of land the ownership of which is clearly in dispute.
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Yes, it’s good that they were removed. But if this man truly owns this land, then this is out right illegal, I and I believe nobody else on this island would want people parking on their drive and then them making profit off it for years.
I hope he puts back his boulders, and keeps on trying to provoke Sandpiper CI trying to make profits.
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Hurrah for common sense, and well done to the Guernsey Boys.
Not only did the 24 wrecks look appalling to both locals and tourists they were a honeypot for vandalism; the car park was regularly covered in smashed glass and had started to attract other rubbish – one of the cars had a huge old TV dumped in it!
Now the Guernsey Boys have had them valued and put them somewhere nice and safe for the owners to collect them, how can anyone object to that.
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Censored Bob
That’s true, you are only out on censored time, be good or you’ll be back–
Come off it Bob, they did a public duty, seeing as the legal guardians of law and order did nothing,
They did what they did do, to the applaud of most of the Island, but then there’s always one…
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Way to go Guernsey boys.
Power to the people.
Next job – remove all the whinging deputies from the States chambers.
Also you can get rid of all the unwanted UK based consultants we do not need over here.
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WELL DONE BOYS.HAVING JUST RETURNED FROM A GREAT HOLIDAY IN GUERNSEY I’M GLAD TO SEE SOME ACTION WAS TAKEN..AND JAMIE..GET A LIFE
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They should have given the cars to the autocross club.
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Hoo-bloody-ray !!!! About time too. If I lived back in Guernsey I’d go and buy them all a well deserved drink ! But isnt this just a reflection of the UK today – loony loony and loonier !!
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Parish justice! Thanks Guernsey Boys for standing up to this bread-head bully!
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To Toby and Censored Bob, the feeble-minded student. Gentlemen, isn’t the dumping of broken, rusted out vehicles the crime?
Since the States failed to act, I commend the Guernsey Boys for their actions.
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Toby
Criminal acts seem to be praised in Guernsey. Next you will want all the UK people to leave their open market houses, because they never had the right to buy them after all….
Thats just a daft as jamie`s post. Can you show us all the criminal acts that have been praised? as having been here 45 years i cant remember ONE.
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well done boys should anything come back at you i hope the islanders back you up
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Well done. Right or wrong by law, it was the right thing to do. Since when is dumping cars in this way the way to settle a dispute or be considered environmentally right. Holroyd contradicts himself in his letter in the Press. If he cares about Guernsey he wouldn’t have put the cars there in the first place. It appears he simply doesn’t respect the island or the people.
Is it not a change of use, turnng a car park into a scrap yard / car dump? Does someone need planning permission to build a wall or barrier whether made of block brick or boulders?
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Well done guys!!!! What are these other people on about? If you abandon a car, it means you do not want it anymore. So why should these guys be called criminals for removing these unsightly vehicles. Honestly, how some people react is quite astonishing to say the least! Or maybe we can come and dump them at their houses and see what they do.
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This sets such a dangerous precident….. Whilst I can understand the frustration and thought process behind what the Guernsey Boys did, they may have broken the law on the grounds of a) criminal damage, b) theft, and (potentially) c) tresspassing.
The next time some little scroat or drunk smashes a car window, he should cite this case in court on the grounds that the Police did not see fit to prosecute the Guernsey Boys for what they did, despite witnessing the incident.
There are no grounds in law for the Guernsey Boys to do what they did – whether morally right or wrong – and the Police and the States will leave themselves wide open for counter cases against them in the future.
I for one hope Mr Holroyd takes a civil action against the Guernsey Boys and Guernsey Police for what has happened, otherwise God help Guernsey’s legal system…..
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Next move?
Brand new cars across the entrances. CCTV trained on them and criminal damage for anyone that touches them…………….
Or……
Closed for resurfacing, for the next ten years…………………….
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Well done boys !!!!
Jamie get a life will you. There is no place for do-gooders anymore. It hasn’t helped the world so far. I bet one of these cars belonged to you hey ?
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To any saying, this sets a precendent or somebody owned those cars blah blah blah.
Firstly, the Guernsey Boys were intelligent enough to have the cars valued as worthless or “scrap value” prior to their removal so are worth the same amount sat in the compound as they were on the carpark.
So if he wants the cars that he alledgedly owns (again he only owns them when it suits him, and I doubt he legal documents for any of these cars, hmm sounds familiar.
Technically all the guernsey Boys were doing was picking up litter, which is why the police stated there is nothing illegal going on.
Secondly, try sticking up for Guernsey as an island and as a people. Instead of jumping down off your high horses for long enough to tell us that we are all savage law breakers and I can only presume you back Mr Holroys actions.
Sad
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these cars were dangerous unroadworthy heaps of scrap that didn’t all belong to him as i know of 2 which were from the estate where i live.maybe now they are in the compound holroyd can go with all info needed and pick them all up when he proves proof of ownership of all cars and land.no one with sense should be comparing this to any other form of damage.it wasn’t done for fun but necessity before someone was seriously injured.we guerns are fed up being held to ransom if i could drive a lorry i’d have been there.
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Only on Guernsey could one man hold an entire community to ransom by word of mouth. He obviously has nothing in writing to substantiate his claims or it would have been produced by now. Now that is now able to view these pages on line imagine how this dispute looks to the outside world. Would you like to come on holiday to view scrap heaps?
I thank the “litter pickers” for their community spirit.
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It’s good that the eyesore has now been removed. However, causing criminal damage in full view of the police and media is not overly sensible. The value of the cars is irrelevant….by smashing their windows the “Guernsey Boys” are liable for criminal prosecution, and I believe that the cars owners should be pressing charges. Whilst a solution to the problem at Cobo has been far too long in coming, taking the law into our own hands is not a solution and dangerous precedents cannot be set (no matter how popular they may be viewed by the public).
Comments above from Jamie et al have been rubbished by other posters on this thread, but whilst the examples given might be far fetched the issues raised are real.
Plus if the land does turn out to be owned by the owner of the cars, then the “Guernsey Boys” are going to look pretty stupid. Maybe it would have been better for them to expend their energies lobbying for the legal dispute to be settled quickly.
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Well done Guernsey Boys – great work!
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Check mate Mr Holroyd ;-)
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Greg
I can see you point however look at it like this
A load of proven worthless items of which ownership is in question, have beem moved from one location where the ownership of which is also in question to another location which is safer and in the general publics best interests.
If the cars are proven to have owners, or even mr holyroyd himself stumps up some form of documentation then they themselves should surely be in breach of a law somehwere along the line too.
Only if Holyroyd can prove ownership of the cars AND the land, then perhaps a crime has been committed, but he has so far not been at all able to prove ownership of the land and i would be very sceptical of any documentation for ownership of cars.
I dont think bribing people to dump cars at that car park instead of where they were planning on taking them it constitutes a bill of sale.
Can you be prosecuted for criminal damage when no-one can prove ownership of the items scrapped, or the land from which they were scrapped from??
Take a damn good lawyer to pull that off.(although I’m sure some of them would be willing to give it a crack)
Plus they cleaned up after themselves.
Litigation is quickly becoming the bane of society. The reality of the situation is that justice has been done, that should be how it stays.
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I think its great that the cars were removed. If Mr Holroyd does own this land then he needs to prove it and as I yet I believe this is still in dispute, so until this is proven, removing the abandoned cars shouldn’t be illegal.
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Whilst I don’t condone the actions of Mr Holroyd, I also think that many people are missing the point here.
Of course the abandoned vehicles were an eyesore and should never have been placed there, however I don’t believe that this was sufficient justification to take the action they did.
Seeing as this whole debacle stems from disputed ownership of land, the States should have forced Holroyd to remove the vehicles again (at his own expense and thus removing any possibility of litigation) and agreeing to suspend any parking on the cleared land until its ownership was proved either way.
People wouldn’t have then had to look at that eyesore – albeit at the expense of neither having additional parking, and pressure then put squarely on the Law Officers to expeditiously investigate and prove ownership rights.
I fear that whilst the Guernsey Boys have removed the eyesore, this will only be a very short lived solution and will no doubt not be the end of the matter.
Like some previous posters have eluded to, what happens if Mr Holroyd is indeed proved to be the rightful owner? I fear that wrecks or not, he would have a retrospective claim that his property had been damaged and taken – and who would be culpable – the very people the Police have filmed? I fear that they have taken footage in case it is needed for subsequent prosecutions.
The ownership issue is going to be the key to how this all ends – good or bad!
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……………. here come the complaints.
Guernsey grapevine (or bloke down the pub) says at least one of the cars that was vandalised to be removed was nothing to do with this farce and was genuinely parked there.
Good work Boyz!
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Mrs P – you would expect someone to allege that in the circumstances. but is it true??? I doubt it.
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To those accusing the Guernsey Boys of criminal damage – are you relatives of Mr Holroyd or are you just simply stupid? How can can you cause criminal damage to somethng that is already damaged beyond repair? Also, isn’t Mr H the one guilty of criminal damage – if graffiti is classed as criminal damage then dumping a load of worthless vehicles in a dangerous condition on land which you cannot prove you own also has to be classed as such.
Well done the Guernsey Boys, but it shouldn’t have required such action, our worthless States members should have taken action a long time ago.
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Great stuff, lads.
Having moved the cars from the common land, will you now be delivering them all to his home address?
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Mrs P
Look at http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/08/07/kens-car-got-caught-up-in-cobo-wreck-clearance/
Still having doubts?
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The Man, unfortunately I don’t think you are correct. If the cars belong to Mr Holyrod (which will be easy for the police to establish if he makes a complaint) then it doesn’t matter if they have no value or were parked on State’s land. By smashing the cars windows, the “Guernsey Boys” are guilty of causing criminal damage. It doesn’t matter that the cars were “parked” on a third party’s land.
I also imagine the police have to take some action on behalf of the owners cars that were moved by mistake. I would be livid if my car was damaged and would want the offenders prosecuted for stealing my car and damaging it.
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TL, I think you need to read today’s Press!
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If Holroyd hadn’t been so damn greedy in the first place and asked for a reasonable rent from Checkers then none of this would have happened and everyone would have been happy.
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Tl, it is true. Just goes to show that maybe these “thoughtful” chaps obviously checked which cars to move…
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Greg
Setting aside the third party car issue (which was bound to pop up especially after the Paint debacle)
I’m no lawyer but surely the whole concept of sueing for criminal damage is to get back any lost value to an item after an event which causes the item to lose value.
If the item had no value before the event(which the independent valuer of these cars confirms), then surely criminal damage is a moot point is it not? As there is no value to give back to the owner.
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Stephen John – I’m not having any doubts!
That just proves that Blokedownthepub was correct.
Blokedownthepub really is the best source of info for most matters. I think the press should give him a daily column.
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Well done to the group of “Guernsey boys” may I suggest all of you stand in the next States elections, and grab Guernsey back for the Guernseyman
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The Man, i think you might be getting confused between criminal and civil law. One does not sue under criminal law. Mr Holyrod will make a complaint that his property has been stolen/damaged and the police have no choice but to investigate. As the evidence is pretty strong in his favour, then charges would be likely to be brought against those involved.
The value of the property is not relevant. I may own an item that has very high sentimental value to me, but zero value in monetary terms. If you damage it unlawfully, then you are breaking the law and the law should only see that you have committed a criminal act.
If I then decided to sue you for damages, then the value of the item would come into play. But this would be a civil court action.
To russm, i’m not stupid…maybe you are? :)
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Greg,
So if Holroyd does claim to own the cars and it is determined that he does not own the land – who is he going to sue for criminal damage?
If there is any justice the states and local business will sue Holyroyd for vandalising cobo car park by dumping his vehichles there in the first place.
If he really has a claim on the land, he needs go to court and prove it, rather than act like a spoilt child.
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The Man – you spout so much rubbish I fear we may need a bigger incinerator…. Would you like to explain to Ken Shaw that his car, which was taken by the Guernsey Boyz, has no value and he will not be able to claim for a new one? How will Mr Shaw get to work?
You speak complete rubbish. Ken Shaw’s car has some replacement value. And Mr H’s situation is no different. Is it fair for Mr Shaw and Mr H to replace these cars from their own pockets? Or to suffer increased premiums from insurance claims? The Guernsey Boyz will justly suffer for the total absence of foresight they have shown, as should anyone who wilfully damages and removes another persons property.
The pro-vandalism masses preaching their support here should also remember that the States could not act as no decision has been made on who owns the land, but regardless, public or private, criminal damage and theft are illegal.
I continue to wonder what the public reaction would be if the press had originally reported this story as the evil Sandpiper group refusing to pay poor Mr H rent for his land rather than the other way around…..
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Greg
Thankfully the car owner concerned is seeing this in a practical light and isn’t as “livid” as you would have been.
It’s an inconvenience for him but overall the job that was done was a good one. I’d be more than happy to contribute to a fund to buy the guy a replacement, let’s face it the car can’t have been worth that much can it?
Mr Holroyd is nothing more than a chancer and his actions are despicable.
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Well done you Guernsey boys,had I been in the Rockmount I’d have bought you all a pint.
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Oh Bob
I assume you are on a wind up here. Or do you work for Holroyd in your summers??
Ken Shaw still actually agrees with the course of action taken by the boys (much to his credit), or maybe you were so angry at the sense of indignation that you stopped reading at say hmm the headline.
Ken shaw aside, how can you honestly say Mr H’s cars have a value, they were independently valued at scrap, they are still worth scrap, ergo no loss in monetary terms.
So, monetary values aside, the only value Mr H’s cars have is of blocking the car park which he claims to own.
They are still able to do that, he just has to collect them. And while he is at it, maybe he can provide conclusive proof of owning the car park, else he should be fined for dumping the vehicles there.
Methinks when you leave university or whatever it is you do on a day to day basis and get in the real world and lose your “hippy values glasses” you will become less self righteous.
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Greg
So are you saying the cars had a sentimental value to Mr Holyroyd then ;) (jk)
Joking aside
Then surely seeing as the police were there from the very start of this process,they should have given the GB’s warning that they were potentially commiting an offence under criminal law if a complaint was made.
This never happened afaik.
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I am quite interested to see how the people who dont condone this action would respond if somebody they knew was injured by one of these wrecks.
If the police take any action it should be against the owners for abandoning their cars in the first place, and if they have no owners who is going to complain about criminal damage?
If it is ok to abandon cars in car parks then surely it must be ok for me to just throw my rubbish out of the window instead of recyling it?
Well done Guernsey Boys, i hope you fulfill your promise and pick up the other abandoned cars around the island.
You have the vast majority of Guernsey behind you and it is only a minority who for some reason think the cars should have stayed there, im thinking maybe they were so opposed to it because you took their cars, lol.
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Scott,
if something like that did happen to someone I knew then I would suggest that they take it up with the Police / civil action. I wouldn’t condone damaging the vehicle or going around to the owners house with a baseball bat to solve the issue.
I also think that you have come to an incorrect conclusion that those on here objecting think that the cars should stay in the car park. Far from it .. there are just those of us that think that the “rockmount ruffians” have used unlawful / illegal means to resolve the issue.
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Oh Jamie and Censored Bob. Bless your sweet naivety…..
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I’m not sure what to think, i live in the castel and yes the cars werent pretty to look at but i find alot of things in guernsey arent pretty to look at but its life.
I cant seem to understand people saying that someone may have got hurt due to one of the wrecks, how so? they dont move obviously and if your “child” is playing with the cars then thats your fault as a parent if you dont stop them?!
if this guy does own the land, why not prove it and then shut everyone up? am i missing the point about him not proving he owns the land?
i mean i can understand if your not allowed to do anything with the land from the IDC or whomever you would be annoyed and if checkers wont pay rent well thats also annoying (if you own the land) so why cant he do what he wants? even if it is rubbish old cars, its his land! but obviously if he doesnt prove he owns the land then well isnt it upto the police to remove the cars?
you cant be seen to take the law into your own hands, its not acceptable i think.
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TM – By leaving Ken Shaw aside, your comment becomes yet another tiresome tirade about Mr H and totally fails to answer my question.
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Everyone knows abandoned vehicles are a public hazard, just waiting to be torched…and we all know kids’ fascination with fire… What would we have said if some child or innocent bystander had been killed there? No, these folks were not vandals committing criminal acts – they surely had the interest of the people of Guernsey at heart.
Politically and legally correct? – perhaps not, but an act of public service. I for one will sleep easier knowing my child is safe from this menace.
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Good for the Guernsey Boys but.
Why were they forced to do something, that our CM and the Policy Council should have done themselves.
These elected by the public should have gone down,with The Chief of police,Chief of Fire Service and Chief of Ambulance Brigade and condemned these wreaks and taken them away.
If it had been a trip to visit a french cheese factory or a Vin De Honneur, they would have been queueing up to go.
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I find it amazing that this has been allowed to happen at all, and even more, that this action is being applauded by so many on the island.
The land ownership issue is in dispute – how can it possibly be right that people have taken it upon themselves to remove vehicles from land that does not belong to them whichever way the coin falls? Holroyds land or not, it does not belong to the ‘Guernsey Boys’.
This looks so bad for the Guernsey Boys and any person who applauds their behaviour. They look like a bunch of hooligans who think they basically own the whole island. Well Guernsey Boys – here’s the shock. You don’t.
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On other abandoned cars, around the Island.
I have on a number of occasions, been left with cars on my property.
What happens is this.
1. Old car is left on your land, sometimes set alight.
2.You phone the police and they try contact owner.
If the owner agrees to move the car no problem, but if he is does not,or is not either at the registered address, or has left the Island you are left with the car. The police will then advise you to take a civil action against the owner..3.You send two letters to motor tax, who then pass it on to the owner, if he is in the Island and at that address and agrees to move it fine.Motor Tax with data protection law, can not give you owners name or Address.
4.If after this usual wasted time, you have to put a notice in the back of thr press, costing about £90 telling him to move it, which he does not. After the date he should have move it, goes past, you then get a skip lorry costing about £200 to remove and dump.
Why can it not be as simple as this.
You send two letters to the Motor Tax and they send one to the owner.
If he is at the address and refuses to move it, you are then allowed to tell Bulk Refuse to take it away, under the scheme we pay for though fuel tax.
If he is not at the registered address, he is breaking the law and the same should apply.
It just shows how some low life, can use the law, and innocent party’s gets stuffed by the same law.
Well done again the Guernsey Boys, i will help, to pay your fine if need be. This is the case when I am sad to say, perhaps one debatable wrong? does make a right, .
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to vee.i don’t let my children play by the cars or any cars for that matter.merely pointing out a fact that any of my children could have slipped or tripped by those wrecks.who would stump up the money for their treatment then?it was right to do what the lads did read the letter in the press today.the facts are there.
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Vee
Since when was anybody allowed to do what they want with their own land? If we led by this litter louts example we will have dumping grounds all over the island.
I dont care if it is his land i would still support the boys. He trashed the place and some guys un-trashed it on our behalf :)
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‘Nice’ to see another dumped car in the car park – white Mazda. :(
I had a good look at the dumped vehicles before they were removed by the Guernsey Boys, interesting that not one had a valid Insurance disk – I assume Mr Holyroyd ensured that the vehicles were insured when he used the public roads to transport them to Cobo.
I don’t know if that applies to Ken Shaw’s Metro as I don’t remember seeing that one, however it’s at the Police ‘pound and a brief search of the windscreen would probably solve that.
Looking at the documents provided online by Mr Holroyd, it’s clear that the Parish have NEVER accepted that the land is anything other than a ‘common land’ part of the Fief. The original agreement was an expedient device to allow Le Riches and other local businesses to share payment for the construction and maintenance of a car park for the convenience of the local population on common land.
Mr Holroyd has resorted to blackmail tactics, thank goodness that local people have shown they won’t be blackmailed.
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Vee – Exactly. Excellent point and well made.
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To all the above posters. Please refer to a letter written by David E. Chester 7.8.09 under the heading of Miscellaneous in the Guernsey Forum Letters to the editor. Certainly paints ownership of said car park in a very grey light. Also where are the Island Planning and developement committees’ views on this? A scrap yard on the coast of Cobo! What on earth is becoming to the once beautiful place that Guernsey once was?
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At last Cobo looks beautiful again! Who knows if the Guernsey Boys broke the law? Either way, they weren’t scared of the outcome, they just care about their Island! States Members take note!
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Student bob – you seem to be full of opinions so what would your solution be?
Are you are really suggesting that these wrecks which were wheeled onto this car park nearly two years ago by Holroyd et al, should have just been left ad-infinitum? Whilst legally the actions of the Guernsey boy may be questionable, it was simply the right thing to do. Local businesses have suffered long enough from a man who who has yet to prove owneship of the land. The car park was not only an eysore and accident waiting to happen. I guess you do not live near Cobo or have children.
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Truth Man
This looks so bad for the Guernsey Boys and any person who applauds their behaviour.
Oh really according to who?
They look like a bunch of hooligans who think they basically own the whole island.
Did you here about the case of a hooligan copper assuting an old lady? Do you think then that they are going cease power of guernsey next? maybe they will block the airports and harbours, raise our taxes. Oh dear we`ve been takin over by some lorry drivers.
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The Man
Can you confirm that the Guernsey Police said “Technically all the guernsey Boys were doing was picking up litter, which is why the police stated there is nothing illegal going on”
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bunch of “locals” get together to perform a vigilante action, we all applaud it,well not me.the legal process shouold have been followed.ahh, poor sandpiper had their free car park held up, ahh, i had to walk 300m to buy my chips,ahhh it looks awful, have you seen the eastern skyline? we don’t go their with skip trucks though. these people may have meant well but it seems wrong the way they went about it. lots of things on the island look awful, i’m not for or against mr holroyd but i am against this nationalist attitude of the “guernseyman”, why be proud of it if it means being stubborn, zenophobic oafs.all these “true guerns” don’t have any more rights over this island than anyone else.
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What a disgrace. Someone high up must have sanctioned these poor misguided fools to go and break the law in such a public way and like the sheep they were did the dirty work of cowards. One can assume that no prosecutions will be forthcoming. All part of the dirty agreement one may say. These proud heroic vigilantes are now in the select group residing in our island ‘A law for some and a law for others group’……
What sort of message does this send out to the drunken yobs on a Friday and Saturday night (or any night) when they put a brick through a shop window, beat up some poor sod, cause thousands and thousands of pounds to public toilets at Cobo or in other parishes or cause thousands of pounds of damage to parked cars. I suppose in their defence, if they are prosecuted that is, they could always use, ‘Well the Guernsey Boys got away wiv it and they are our heroes and look at all of the people who support them your honour, even the cops, Parish officials and Deputies say they did the right fing we were just copying em’’……….What a day for law and order in Guernsey, what a sad day for the Parish and what a day to bury your head in your hands and fear for the continuing future of our island………
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well done to all the people involved in clearing up cobo,i was getting fed up with all the letters in the press complaining about the mess down there and nothing being done about it,it just needed someone with common sense to sort it out,i would of happily helped out the guernsey boys.
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Nikkers
What makes you think they feel they have any more rights over this island then anyone else? bit of local bashing there eh? bet you couldnt wait to get that one in and i bet most of the non locals support them too.
Here we go as many of us was probably expecting, out comes the massive overly exagerated bull. Yes pete just as you have posted. I just asked my 10 year old if he did all the things you fear will happen and think its ok cos of the cars being moved, he told me not to talk silly. there was a yob down there and his mess needed cleaning up.
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David J – If you suffer from vehicles dumped on your property again just do what we have done a couple of times over the years at P Towers when cars have been abandoned on the grounds.
At about midnight push the offending car into the road. Simples! All of a sudden it’s blocking the highway and once they have been (anonymously…..) informed the Police will make it magically disappear!
No paper work needed.
No cost incurred.
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More lunacy from Pete Burtenshaw.
Anyone for a march to protest against the clear-up at Cobo?
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I too am delighted that these eyesores have gone, at least for the time being. Its disgraceful that the Parish and States have let this matter drag on for so long and quite wrong that individuals have had to risk police action to resolve it.
Looking at the wider picture, why don’t we have laws to protect us from irresponsible neighbours who undermine our use, enjoyment or value of our own property? Looking around the island I’m saddened and angered by the number of areas blighted by abandoned buildings or junk strewn land. Why should the qoners of adjoining property have to suffer when its not their fault? After a warning, eyesores should be cleared by the Parish/States (possibly using convict labour?) and the cost plus interest charged to the owner or paid when the land changes hands. If the owner continues to be irresponsible the property should be auctioned with the owner receiving any balance due. Where the owner cannot be traced any proceeds of sale could be held in trust for maybe 50 years then go into Guernsey’s coffers.
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I’d like to send this Mr Holroyd a stiff letter
Does anyone know his full address ?
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Mrs P. Of course if it has not been set fire to,flat tyres or no tyres.If it is not locked and the keys are in the car or the owner has left them. If the criminal has not left the keys, it is difficult to move without a truck. With keys you can push it into the road, and be forced by, some criminal action to brake the law.
I just believe that the law should start to, penalize the criminal and be used for the benefit of the majority of the honest hardworking.
If not there will, I am sorry to say, a lot of actions like Guernsey Boys, from the honest, fed up people.
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Yer PB, finger on the pulse again? LOL. You related to Holroyd or something, cos your on your own apart from Jamie Holroyd, nikkers and Student Bob Holroyd.
Friends, fools and family :-)
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pete burtonshaw you are in the minority so just go jump.what a stupid attitude you have as to the law.most people are pleased and if they have to face the consequences then they will as they are true guerns and true guerns don’t back down.
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Stephen John
Yes it was onthe front of the press.
along the lines of
“Police confirm nothing illegal happened”
the picking up litter bit was me :)
Vee
Funny you were on here a couple of months ago applauding a group of people who took matters into their own hands, except on that occasion it was the public who were massively inconvenienced stil…….horses for courses though eh??
CB or SB…. whatever
I cant be bothered, if are not going to read what I write then whats the point??
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Once again Pete Burtenshaw shows just how out of touch he is with the everyday Guernseyman. Take to the streets Pete, although you’d probably need a banner about 20 feet by 10 to list all the problems or wrongdoings that YOU PERCEIVE to be going on in the island.
These men were right to remove the cars in the way they did and ought to be applauded, not criticised by you and your ilk.
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The Man:
Yes i was supporting the firefights on here a while back but thats a completely different matter to the cars at cobo isnt it!
I clearly stated above that i dont know what to think about this cobo mess, as i have no idea who owns the land and so on, i feel you cant be seen to take the law into your own hands, what example does that set to the younger generation?
I know you will now say well the firefighters took the law into their own hands, but did they put metal bars thru car windows?? NO!
I have a neighbour who has terrible cars so can i put out his windows and tow it away? i dont think so eh, id get done for criminal damage i’m sure, i’m simply highlighting what this message sends out to people, the wrong message eh!
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The Man – Quite right. I don’t know why you bother either.
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So the so called Guernsey Boys are Sandpiper supporters then? I wonder how much they were paid? and what do they plan to do with cars? sell them off for parts? will they give the profits back to the owner?
If they wanted to do something for the island there is no shortage of charity work available. Problem is it may not be as good for boasting at the pub about.
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Go and ask the waitress in Hojo’s if she is happy they took her car away… since she had parked it there and it had nothing to do with MR H’s little scheme…..
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Vee
The example it sets to the younger generation is that occasionally, very very occasionally, people will put aside their differences and group together to get something done for the greater good of society and the island. It also sends the message that we will not be held to ransom by greedy businessmen with only one motivation.
I dont think thats a bad thing to be teaching the younger generation.
The decent morals and values on display by the GB’s (whether you question their judgement or not, you cannot deny that they have the islands best interests at heart)are quickly getting lost in todays society (as very well evidenced by SB, thanks for that, a great example), and are so foreign to some which is why IMO there are people expressing disbeleif at this act.
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Ray – Holroyd’s correspondence address is on the Facebook site ‘Get rid of the abandoned cars at Cobo’
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Mr Burtenshaw, you wrote in your election manifesto:
“The issue of the environment is as important as ever and I would ensure that the government lead by example”
What did you think of the environment at the Cobo car park when it was littered with abandoned cars? Who led by example? The Government? Or the Guernsey Boys?
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“Student bob – you seem to be full of opinions so what would your solution be?”
Good question Dave. I’m glad you asked.
I’m sure we all know that at present the ownership of the car park is being deliberated over by the Law Officers. One way or the other, the question of ownership should be resolved in the next few weeks. If Mr H does own it then it’s his to do what he likes with, if he doesn’t, and it belongs to the public then the States or parish could clear the land.
Either way, it didn’t need Guernsey’s equivalent of the A Team to turn up smash a few windows and remove a few cars. I’m sure that every single poster here agrees that the cars had to go, my point is, is that this was the wrong way to do it.
btw, I’m not a parent, but if I was, I’d like to thing I had more sense than to allow my children to play on rusty, broken cars. If you deem the cars to be a hazard to your children, then don’t let your kids play on them.
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Student Bob:
I 100% agree with you! It makes me laugh when people are saying the cars are dangerous to children, i certainly wouldnt allow my child to play in a car that has been left to rot! Plus what message are the “guernsey boys” sending to these children, thats its ok to smash up cars if you dont like the fact they are parked there!
I think like you stated yes we all found the cars ugly to look at but we cannot just go round taking the law in our hands, whats next the guernsey boys dont like the look of a house so they will brick it? it truly amazes me that the good old guernsey police stood by filming it and doing nothing but then again what can we expect from them!?
I personally think had these sad blokes got a real life they would see the bigger picture and maybe focus on something abit more creative like their families or whatever, and its true what someone posted all they wanted was a pat on the back down the rocky, well congrats boys you got it! now what? feel like superman?!
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Vee
Thats got to be one of the biggest loads of garbage i`ve read in a long time.
You say, ” whats next the guernsey boys dont like the look of a house so they will brick it?”
That statement you make is what truly amazes me.
The only message any sensible kid will get from this, is that its not ok for anyone to treat areas of this island as a dumping ground even if you have got a few quid. Or we could leave it as it was and send them the message that you can dump your old bikes or anything else where you like cos there`s a guy at cobo that does it.
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Student Bob
You say that the Law Officers ‘are deliberating over the ownership of the car park’ and that ‘it should be resolved in the next few weeks’
Those two statements are incompatible I’m afraid. Having already taken several months to leap into action it will probably take several months before the authorities come to a first draft conclusion,followed by several more months of negotiating with all parties concerned before the final watered down draft is published
This could outlast Coronation Street
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Student Bob,
The point I am trying to make about safety is that it is supposed to be used as a car park and not a dumping ground for abandoned vehichles. Kids have to cross the car park from the beach to get to the shop. Before this area was cleared up it was a glass strewn bombsite.
We can probably agree to disagree on that point but I have to say that whilst you seem to have a go at the Guernsey boys for their actions you seem to be very quiet about Mr Holyroyd, someone who has yet to prove owneship of this land. In my mind if he does not turn out to be the landowner, criminal prosecution should be taken by the states for dumping his cars at Cobo and civil action should be taken by the surrounding businesses for loss of income.
It is very sad it had to get to this stage when it all could have been settled in court long, long ago and Holroyd would have elicited far more sympathy from the general public.
Vee – oh dear – what a lot of garbage.
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The Man – So, to recap, I lack decent morals and values because I was brought up to believe that criminal damage and theft are wrong.
Right………………..
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It never ceases to amaze me that we frequently get narrow minded posters here that think that just because someone deviates from the ‘mainstream’ view, that they must be a friend / relative / supporter of Holroyd!
Most people are agreed that the removal of the cars was necessary, but some merely question the manner in which it was achieved. Do most of you honestly believe that the Guernsey Boys’ actions should be applauded? Because I believe that under certain circumstances their action sets a dangerous precedent.
Not only does this whole incident arise from a dispute over land ownership, but a question remains regarding whether these cars were actually abandoned. If the States had agreed to pay the rent in order to secure that parking area (not that I think for a minute they should!), then how quickly after the cheque had cleared do you think Holroyd would have disposed of the cars?
This begs the question, eyesore or not, were these cars really abandoned or strategically placed by a man who were using their presence as a preventative measure to stop people parking on land that he believed to be his and in an attempt to gain an extortionate rent for?
The precedent is this – if someone parks a car on someone’s land for an extended period (and what do we interpret as ‘extended’?), then why bother contacting the VRLD to trace the owner to then request they remove it? Why bother spending our hard earned cash putting a notice in the back of the Press warning that if said vehicle is not removed then it will be disposed of at the expense of the owner? It appears that you can get your mates round with a skip lorry, put the windows in and cart it off to the Police compound yourself – all seemingly with little risk of prosecution because it has already been done like this with the Police watching and more than happy for it to continue.
Do people not see dangerous similarities occurring?
Finally to the posters who believe that the ‘children might get hurt’ argument carries any weight in this instance – Please, really??
Before you ask, yes I have two children of my own, and when the weather is dull and not suitable for the beach / park and I don’t want to spend money on local attractions, I don’t suggest that we all go to the ‘abandoned’ car site at Cobo and play on the cars!
Someone restoring an old car or boat in their driveway carries a ‘potential’ element of risk to a child deciding to mess about with it, but that hardly justifies dragging the offending vehicle out of the driveway does it? Use a bit of noggin! Control your kids and if they don’t listen to you and get hurt by some rusty bit of metal protruding from the car, then I’m sorry, you as a parent are to blame.
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*laughs as point is proven*
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Hold Fire!!! finally someone along with myself and student bob talks sense! wait for it, your get told your talking rubbish now!!!
the guernsey boys are disgusting taking the law into their own hands! completely disgusting!
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Vee, Holdfire and Student Bob
If you don’t want to live in this “lawless” society, the answer’s quite simple.
Goodbye.
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So Hold Fire,
As one of the ‘narrow minded’ posters I will ask you the same question as I asked Bob. I live in the area and would like to know how you resolve this issue that has been rumbling on now for nearly 2 years? Without the actions of the Guernsey boys this area would continue to deteriroate and are you seriously suggesting that we should just leave it be? What message does that send out? – that people can start dumping their rubbish wherever they like?
I would be delighted to know why Mr H has not gone to court on this matter. It is clearly not about a lack of funds and I can only assume therefore that his case is not watertight.
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I wonder if Vee, Hold Fire and Student Bob are as dense as their posts make them seem to be or whether they are purposely trying to be obtuse!?
Children are not “playing in the car park”, they simply need to cross the car park to reach the shops, which is hazardous when strewn with broken glass and metal. Adults too are at risk.
Dave and The Man are talking sense. We’re not condoning criminal damage, just the community gathering together for the greater good.
Show some common sense and perspective please you narrow minded people!
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To “Hold Fire!”. Excellent post, I couldn’t agree more with your thoughts.
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I have just heard an interview with this Thomas Holroyd regarding the Cobo car park fiasco, my opinion seems to be changing it seems he may own this land and it appears that maybe supermarket have had free use for too long.
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It seems the Cobo car park issue seems to role on, I was lead to believe that the States owned this land however if the recent action by the “Guernsey boys” is anything to go by, it now appears that this Mr. Holroyd does own the land, simply because if the States owned the land they would have legally removed these cars themselves.
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HF
The precedent was set earlier in the year by Deputy Paint. In his capacity as Catel Constable he had to pay £200 because the owner had it valued. The court found in the owner’s favour The Guernsey Boys, sensibly, took an independent valuer down to the site and he valued them at zero. On that premis we worked.
We didn’t move the vehicles because of perceived issues over peoples Health or Safety. We moved them because we could. We used the same rules Holroyd did. The land is in dispute, ergo if he can put cars on them, we can get rid of them.
We come from world of decency and doing the right thing by the people and community. If Holroyd learns anything from this it will be a lesson in how money should be used.
And we have money. We have lots of money.
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Annie. Got any kids?
Try this question from the Official Student Bob Common Sense Test on them…
13. The car park is strewn with sharp rusty metal and broken glass, what do you do…
a) Ohh, scary, find another way to get to the shops;
b) Check your tetaneus jabs are up to date, wear some shoes and tread carefully;
c) Jump up and down barefoot, if daddy sues the landowner, we can all go to Disneyland!!
d) “Broken glass? No thanks, I couldn’t possibly manage another mouthful.”
Results….
a or b – congratulations, you appear to have some common sense. You may go to the shop and buy an ice-cream.
c – Just because Mrs Holt did it, doesn’t make it right, now go to your room.
d – When mummy and daddy get back from holiday, ask them to call social services.
I mean sure, it would be nicer if the car park wasn’t covered in broken glass and rusty metal, but if it is, try exercising some common sense. Finally, remember, don’t run with scissors and don’t pet strange dogs.
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Ted, Phil, Voodogirl & Flying Scott, I was all for the cars being removed in a legal way. I ask how in this day and age we can not locate the true owner of this troublesome piece of land is beyond me. Yes, I too was frustrated at the lack of action by those in power. But, turning these sheep into local heroes just demeans the island and legalises criminal damage especially in the eyes of the younger generation. By condoning their disgraceful behaviour you condone all criminal damage. Tell me, you all feel so strongly about this matter, why did you not take the same action as your ‘local heroes’ and move these vehicles yourselves???
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Phil are you actually saying leave the island to myself, student bob and hold fire!?
i live right by cobo bay i had to look at the cars just like everyone else and i am saying i dont think the guernsey boys actions were correct, so why should i leave the island? you sound like such a silly man you really do! seriously how old are you?
I was born here, my parents are local, my children are local, we have a voice and are simply saying what we feel, and then you comes along with the most childish answer! really! Were you one of the overweight guernsey heroes removing the cars? my answer would be yes!
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Interesting to see that a “Guernsey Boy” has stated it was nothing to do with Health and Safety, and all to do with the land dispute.
I hope that they also took legal advice as to what constitutes criminal damagage and taking without consent. I guess with all their money they could afford it…….
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Mr Burtenshaw
“By condoning their disgraceful behaviour you condone all criminal damage”
Nonsense! The cars were wrecks, waiting to injure children. They were already damaged. And in all cases had exceeded the 1 hour parking limit.
You sit on the sidelines wailing ‘something must be done!’ Then get on your high horse when something is done.
Do you seriously think anyone is going to rely on this as a precedent when up before the Jurats on charges of criminal damage? Or that the Jurats will dignify such a defence with consideration?
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Whether or not Thomas Holroyd owns the car park is not important to me, what however is important to me is that a group calling themselves the “Guernsey Boys” can do the bidding of a supermarket, did not something happen like this in Guernsey in 1940.
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Pt. GuernseyBoy – We didn’t move the vehicles because of perceived issues over peoples Health or Safety. We moved them because we could.
We moved them because we could! NO YOU COULDNT! you took the law into your own hands, the message you are clearly sending it is shocking, so can someone go beat someone up in town because they dont approve of their clothes? can someone re-paint a neighbours house because they dont like the colour? no seriously i want to know!
you say “because you can” that is truly amazing! I cannot believe you feel you are above the law! My gosh how proud your parents must feel of you!
you also state: We come from world of decency and doing the right thing by the people and community.
Yes we do come from a world of decency and i dont think your actions were at all decent, i think they were agressive! doing the right think by the community would have been letting the police and the legal system work it out! I know for a fact i’m not the only person who thinks this!
great well done you moved some cars, but if it is indeed this chaps land, an he puts more cars there and you try your stunt again i hope you all get done for it!
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Don’t give up the day job Student Bob, you are neither funny nor smart enough to see the bigger picture.
And no, I don’t have any kids. I just didn’t like living near an area that resembled a bomb sight. Cobo is meant to be an area of beauty, not a slum.
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“By condoning their disgraceful behaviour you condone all criminal damage”
Don’t be stupid and reactionary.
“Tell me, you all feel so strongly about this matter, why did you not take the same action as your ‘local heroes’ and move these vehicles yourselves???”
I don’t have an HGV licence
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You wouldd of thought that if they are going to play the part of local superheros they would of at least worn some tight lycra, pants on the outside and run around going “ker pow” every time they smashed a window. How disappointing, Guernsey cant even have decent vigilantes. I might have to go and live in Gotham city.
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Holroyd is the MD of this crowd
http://www.hanoismanagement.com
can’t find him on farcebook tho?
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Hi ‘Pt. GuernseyBoy’ – is Pt. an abbreviation for ‘pretty’ by any chance?
So you like to do things ‘because you can’ have ‘lots of money’ and if something is valued at zero think you’re quite within your rights to take it?
Great.
Just what we need here another megalomaniac.
What do you think of my suggestion on the “Store owner applauds the Boys’ car park clearance” thread. To sum it up, just give him the land no matter who legally owns it, it will only cost us money to maintain it.
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Pete Burtenshaw
“By condoning their disgraceful behaviour you condone all criminal damage”
What a pathetic comment. It is idiots like you that seem to think moving these rusting heaps of metal is the equivalent of throwing a brick through the window of a random house or car. You might not be able to see the difference but I think even the younger members of our society have more intelligence than to think the action taken ‘legalises criminal damage’.
The action taken was for the benefit of the Island. There will always be a minority who will disagree with such action but thats what you are – a minority. You’re entitled to your opinion but the nonsense coming out from the likes of you, student bob, vee and holdfire that the action taken is going to set a dangerous precedent and lead to lawlessness throughout the Island is laughable.
I would have been happy to take part in moving the vehicles myself – just don’t own a skip lorry at the moment but definitely thinking about buying one!
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Gangs of new york and now we have skip drivers of Guernsey! Cant`t wait for the sequel.
I`m of to live in the Bronx as i`m sure it will be safer than this soon to be lawless society.
Just had all my windows boarded up and cctv fitted to my house and car, my daughter has to be home straight from school and i`ve moved my parents to a safe house. But at least there is a positive side to this, we can send the boys down to dismantle the mass burn thing as fast as their building it.
Must dash, i just spotted a lorry driver pelting an old ladies house with bricks cos he did`nt like the colour.
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Flying Scott, you talk so much trash.
U say the cars were there waiting for a child to injure themselves……did this happen. Were you receiving info that children were intending to arm themselves on these cars….of course not.
You state that I sit on the sidelines wailing ’something must be done!’ then I get on my high horse when something is done. I have never commented on this issue before the wanton criminal damage took place by vigilantes.
I am amazed how people like you, voodochild, phill and others can abuse people like me who dare give an opinion on the matter. I may not agree with any of you but who gives you the right to slander and abuse me for my views.
Why not contact me and discuss this matter in more depth I am sure you will see that my opnions are justified, my number is in the book.
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russm, How in gods name can this criminal damage be for the benefit of the Island……..Please please please explain how???
These people have not saved a life, rescued a swimmer from the sea, saved a family from a house fire…….They have committed criminal acts…….why do people have problems with this……It’s like living in a Southern US state in the 50′s…
What would you have said if a group of ‘Latvian Boys’ or ‘Polish Boys’ or ‘Portuguese Boys’ OR ‘English Boys’ had done the dirty deed……..I bet you, the Police, Parish Officials, and all those who are blindly supporting the ‘Guernsey Boys’ would be up in arms……….’’Disgraceful, how dare they come into our island and do this dreadful act of criminal damage’……….Lets be honest, regardless of nationality a criminal acts been carried out. You and others may be proud that these idiots carried this criminal damage out in your name but it was most certainly not carried out in my name or my wife and children’s names.
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Thank you all for the constant reminders about the nonsense I spout, but humour me… in over 150 posts, still no-one has answered my original question….
If the Guernsey Boys can smash car windows and steal cars on the basis that they have no value, does this mean I can go down the North Beach with a baseball bat and a tow rope and trash cars that a mate in the auto trade considers to have no value??
(Annie – my mummy says I’m very funny AND smart. She also can’t see the ‘bigger picture’ you refer to, care to spell it out for Student Mum?)
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Seriously Pete B get in the real world. The removal of cars at Cobo is not going to cause social meltdown as you seem to think – it was simple fact of local people having enough of nothing being done.
You really need to get in the real world and perhaps spend a little less time on the island and get off the internet reading about conspiracy theories. There are far worst places to live than Guernsey and to suggest social meltdown is inevitable because of this is not only patronising but reactionary rubbish. Quite frankly you are the sort of person who would agree that the MP’s expenses in the UK are ok just to disagree with the masses. Sometime the majority are right so get over it.
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OK ‘VEE’ you have just made this argument into a whole new level. How on earth where the actions ‘agressive.’ They took the law into there own hands because the police and states could not be arsed to do anything about it. Those cars where a waste of space, JUST LIKE YOUR COMMENTS!!!
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Yes i have a fantastic idea, lets go and dump the cars back eh?! Then maybe users like Bob, Jamie and Vee might be happy!
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Pete – they haven’t committed criminal damage.
I for one respect the Police and they were present at the cleanup and stated that ‘Nothing criminal occurred’.
I am getting quite sick of the self-appointed ‘Concerned Minority’ using terms like ‘Vigilante’, ‘Criminal Damage’, ‘Disgraceful Behaviour’. And then whine that they themselves are being slandered when people react!
The most extraordinary comment of all has to be this one from KB:
“is important to me is that a group calling themselves the “Guernsey Boys” can do the bidding of a supermarket, did not something happen like this in Guernsey in 1940.”
Unbelievable – equating the measured and limited action of the removal of a bunch of wrecks from disputed land (and quite possibly Common Land) with Hitler?
Looking at the documents on Holroyd’s Original Cobo Car Park site he uses obfuscating language. While we would say ‘dumped cars’ – he says ‘Cars started to use the area, legally, for long term parking’. His site has now changed – a lot of the claims/information have disappeared, but are easily available using Google’s cache.
Unfortunately while the land is in dispute the Parish can’t take physical action, except to clear boulders and dumped cars from blocking legitimate access to (disputed) common land.
Mr Holroyd chooses to play ridiculous and potentially dangerous games. Hopefully he will now accept that people don’t like being played with.
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I must reply to a couple of my critics.
Firstly Dave – What would I have done? Nothing. Why is it for me, you or the Guernsey Boys to do anything??? It is for the States to act (As unwilling as they seem to be). They believe the land to be theirs, so why couldn’t they have acted?
Annie – Is there someone who looks after you, or are you overdue medication or something? Children do not need to cross the car park – have you ever heard of using the pavement or walking around a potentially ‘dangerous obstacle? God forbid what you must be like on Bonfire night! – Come along children, it is a shorter route to get to the Beanjar stand by walking THROUGH the bonfire! Please go back to sleep.
Russm – I never stated that there would be lawlessness throughout the island – that is your over-reaction. I merely pointed out that if a similar thing happens elsewhere and is ‘for the good of the island’ then a precedent has been set. What is the point of following protocol to get owners of vehicles to move them if such a precedent exists?
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Pt. guernsey Boy, where you bullied at school or anything like that? you can so you do, you have lots and lots of money, ooooohhhh you are impressive with your up the locals attitude! you do yourself no favours with the ugly way you speak.
i am with the few who say that the cars needed to go by not in the way they have. part of me hope mr h. does own the land! and no i don’t know him or work for him, also i am local by a fair way back, i just have a different opinion to some. it’s good barry paint went to court and was fined for what he did and the same should happen in this case.
lots of money, dear oh dear!
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Pete I understand completely what your saying but something had to be done regarding the mess… The whole situation was a mess, the state of the land, the controversy over who actually owned the land and nothing seemed to be done about it…
That area had to be cleared, yes it was illegaly done but please get of your high horse and realise it was done with good intentions. To compare this with bricking peoples houses and just generally tourching peoples cars like has happened in this car park is just plain crazy to me.
Thankfully everyone should have a right to free speech and there opinion should be respected, but then again if you don’t agree your wrong lol
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Why cannot the States sort this problem out, the longer it goes on the more I feel that Thomas Holroyd has a legitimate claim, if it takes a local group businessmen to take such extraordinary action that seems to tell me that the States have no claim to the land.
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We have been deluged by support. Those against the action are in the minority. Ergo the ‘outraged’ minority opinion are as amusing as they are irrelevant.
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Shame on the Police – this vindicates domestic abuse and any other “private” dispute.
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Pt Guernsey Boy, you may have support but you should have a criminal record.
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This whole Cobo Car Park issue has gone of for far to long, I have seen these scrap cars parked and it does the Island no credit at all, in regards to this Holroyd guy, I am sure his mother loves him, however I do not at all. But I must ask the question if he does not own the land why did it take locals to remove the cars, and far as I can see the only winners in the current situation is the supermarket, who have free use of the land. We need to be clear who owns this car park so at least it can be maintained.
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The States have been too quiet on this matter in my mind and the Cobo car park has been unresolved for some time, my thinking is that there must be something in Mr Holroyd’s claim.
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Mr Burtonshaw,
You write: “I am amazed how people like you… can abuse people like me”
Having previously written:
“you talk so much trash”
and
“By condoning their disgraceful behaviour you condone all criminal damage”
Pot, kettle?
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Pt. GuernseyBoy – I wouldn’t say that the minority opinion is irrelevant. Your actions were right (IMO) only because there was an overwhelming amount of public support for something being done to clear up a mess that had been allowed to develop for too long. The minority opposing view is relevant because it forms part of the straw poll of public opinion just as much as those voices of support. If similar action is needed again then the minority view needs to be considered before further action is taken.
And to those that say that this sets a precedent for vigilante action, I do not think that you are seeing things in context.
It was clear to the world that these cars were not there for long term storage – they were there to cause a nuisance. Mr Holroyd has admitted as much by saying that he bought them especially for the purpose of taking up spaces. I don’t buy the safety argument (as you say, just give the cars a wide berth) but the eyesore was unacceptable.
This was not a case of people unilaterally deciding that they did not like something. This was a case of the community concluding that someone was wilfully creating an ugly mess and calling for something to be done. In response, someone did something. This does not justify anyone moving a knackered car from a car parking space on North Beach just because it is worthless and they would like to park there. The context is completely different.
If a locked car is burning and there is a child inside, I do not wait for the fire brigade, I break the window. If someone is wilfully dumping cars (and we all know that that is what was happening) and the public are up in arms about it, then I support anyone who can do something about it as long as they take as many precautionary measures as they can (as in this case). It is called public spirit, community action, etc.
Community action cannot be used to justify terrorising a minority or harming people or harming property that is actually wanted by someone, because that would be mob rule. But use a little bit of common sense – these cars were purposely placed there to create a nuisance. They were not being stored for sale or for later use. The action has only cleaned up an ugly scene and there are no other consequences. In that context, the action is justified.
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Pete Burtenshaw
In my opinion no act of criminal damage has been carried out. You may think clearing a heap of junk constitutes criminal damage but luckily that is not the view of our police nor is it the commonsense viewpoint – something those opposing the action seem to lack.
Hold Fire
Although you may not have said so you should read some of the other posters against the action taken who seem to believe the clearing of this junk is going to make the general population believe thay can go out and commit wanton acts of crime without penalty.
As I said, you are both entitled to an opinion that the action taken was wrong but don’t try and suggest that the vast majority of us who believe otherwise by doing so support criminal activity.
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What’s wrong with a bit of vigilantism anyway? We could do with a bit more of it in some circumstances, then predatory paedophiles, rapists etc might think twice about their actions, rather than carrying on regardless because of an ineffective judicial system.
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Interesting that there are a number of posters here that support Holroyd only because they appear to be anti Sandpiper! (and business generally, perhaps…)
Sandpiper isn’t the only entity that benefits from the car park. The entire community does.
The states are pretty moribund when it comes to this kind of thing – too many ifs and buts – they daren’t act for fear of being even slightly wrong. Our states defer decisions for decades for fear of being wrong.
The actual ownership of the land isn’t clear, but the one clear thing about it is that it is very, very, very unlikely to be owned by Holroyd or his company (yet not impossible, perhaps). Of course, he may have some rights over the land as an assign of the Seigneur – but these are not proven. If he wishes to assert those rights, then he must take out injunctive actions through the courts, rather than resorting to legally unsupported unilateral actions. He claims to have terminated the previous agreement – which is all well and good, but he has not sought an eviction order against the various parties. He has resorted to a lock-out style of bullying.
Concerned citizens have stepped in to protect an oppressed tenant (or group of tenants in this case) from being prevented from using land over which they may well have received a stay of eviction from the courts, should the purported “owner”/controller have attempted a legal eviction. (Provided the court had first recognised his “rights” to terminate, endorsed the validity of the original agreement, etc.)
Holroyd wants us as taxpayers to call his bluff, because he doesn’t want to incur the expense of trying to prove anything himself. If he loses, he was on a hiding to nothing. If he wins, then he is “quids in”. Tails he wins, heads we lose.
My only objection to the latest action by the so-called “Guernsey Boys” is their name. It sounds loutish and rather ill-befitting; it appears to suggest that they and they alone are Guernseymen. That they “celebrated” in the Rockmount afterwards also makes me shudder just a little.
But to suggest that this clearance of common land sets some form of dangerous precedent is nonsense. These are reasonably well-respected local men taking a community facility back from the forces of speculation on behalf of the community. All done under the watching eyes of the Police. Holroyd had presumably been informed, too. Minimal force seems to have been applied, and the job done professionally.
No criminality, it seems.
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Pt. GuernseyBoy
I think it is fair to say that the ‘outraged’ objectors, do not object to the cars being gone and the area looking neat and tidy but to how they were dispossoved of. To myself and others it appears that you have been allowed to break the law and get away with it.
1) Some Guernsey boys were interviewed on the radio and indicated that they didn’t know whether they would end up in prison, indicating that you didn’t actually know if you were breaking the law or not.
2) Damage was caused to the vehicles without owner consent
3) The vehicles were taken away without owner consent
4) Vehicles which were not owned by your intended target and were in regular use were damaged / taken without owner consent.
5) Popular opinion does not make something lawful
6) Damaging something that you have valued as worthless is not lawful. (I’d also question the validity of the ‘expert’ valuation given that ‘innocent’ owner’s vehicles were also hit)
For all intents and purposes it appears that the authorities have turned a blind eye and let you get away with it. Perhaps you can help myself and others who are in the minority understand why your actions were lawful?
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The Police and Law Officers need to uphold the law – criminal damage is an offence according to the Guernsey Police “the facts” summary – “broken windows” and damage to “Motor Vehicles”.
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The Police and Law Officers should charge the Guernsey Boys with vandalism or TWOC.
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Why have the critics so swift to accuse the Guernsey Boys of criminality been silent on the behaviour of Mr Holroyd?
Has he established his ownership of the land?
And if not, why not?
Surely the onus is on him to prove he owns the land – and if he could, why would he have resorted to such tactics as he has?
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TL
Very good post and well put.
Mr Holroyd admitted why he put the cars there and that they were damaged afterwards. Did he report this to the police? i doubt it. they had no value to him other than being part of his childish game and produced the results he was looking for, causeing problems for ordinary folk and a possible safety hazard. What he didn`t count on was that ordinary people with the right motives would get involved with his game of “now you see it” and the guys retaliated by “now you don`t”.
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Censored Bob/Student Bob you are clearly confused as much over the issue as you are over your name.
To answer your question no you can’t take a baseball bat and tow rope and trash cars in North beach that a mate in auto trade considers to have no value the reasons why are;
1. North Beach car park is not up for dispute on who owns the land.
2. The cars are can in fact be removed from North Beach if they are left there for long periods of time. Say the same amount of time as the cars were left at Cobo? “Damage” may be caused for removing the vehicles however it’s not the towers who are charged. Is it now?
As is well documented the cars were not “trashed” but were broken into to allow the vehicle to be towed to a lot where it can be picked up by it’s owner (which I may add the majority have not done). How can it be criminal damage when even the ownership of the cars cannot be proved!!!!
Your thought process on comparing the two instances to be the same do in fact label you as nonsensical and unamusing and if it’s only your mother who can state otherwise then it’s a sad sad day for you.
Whilst there are some detailed responses to both sides of the debate you fail to bring anything to the argument and seem to be posting to purely “get a rise”.
Perhaps it’s time to continue with your studying?
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This is a difficult situation to call – on one hand I have a lot of sympathy with the Guernsey Boys who, fuelled by public support, have decisively dealt with what was becoming a bit of a joke.
Nevertheless, if (and I stress if) a crime has been committed and the police turn a blind eye because of public opinion, this sets a concerning precedent.
Police being swayed by public opinion rather than simply doing their duty objectively is the hallmark of corrupt, repressive regimes, not a civil society such as Guernsey.
In my opinion, the Chief Minister should remind the Chief Police Officer of his duty to uphold the law and protect the public. IF a crime has been committed, irrespective of public opinion, action should be taken. It is important that every islander can have confidence in the impartiality of their police force.
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Jaime
Your questions are irrelevant. These cars weren’t simply parked by their owners whilst they went shopping or overnight whilst they were at home. They were dumped and abandoned to cause a public nuisance in the hope of blackmailing money out of local businesses. Owner consent is therefore not an issue as the owners had dumped their vehicles.
This is the problem the vast majority have with the minority objectors – the minority cannot seem to put the action in context whereas most of us can see the difference between criminal damage and the clearance of this car dump. You are interpreting the law like the worst type of lawyer who are to blame, for example, for turning the human rights act into an act protecting criminals rather than the lawabiding.
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Jules: do u not think smashing windows is agressive? because i do and i bet deep down u do but you wont want to say anything as people will start attacking you on this forum!
EVERYONE has agreed the cars werent pretty, but if that guy owns the land then no one is allowed to moan at its his land, what would u lot rather he fill it with love and happiness and happy smiling children! we live in the real world and things happen that people dont like but you cant just take the law into your own hands and remove property that does not belong to you. how would you like it if i went and smashed all ur car windows in and removed it because i simply did not approve of where you parked? seriously how would you feel!
Most people are with the Guernsey boys and some arent, thats PERSONAL choice isnt it, us that are standing against the guernsey boys are seeing a completely different picture to u obviously, its funny as everyone i have spoken to about this, if they are “older” they are agreeing with the guernsey boys and the younger group of people see it as breaking the law! now i know 50years ago you could drink and drive and ur local copper would turn a blind eye, but this is 2009 you cant drink and drive, you cant just remove cars because you dont approve! the Police cant turn a blind eye, they were filming it! its disgusting the whole argument! that includes the cars looking like trash but i stand by what i said, if its his land, no-one can take the law into their own hands.
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The Supermarket should pay for the land they are using at Cobo whoever owns it! I can’t believe they will not openly negotiate with Mr Holroyd – it seems to me they are using bullying tactics and I honestly can’t believe that they didn’t put the so called ‘Guernsey Boys’ up to vigilante tactics! It is nice to see someone standing up to Sandpiper and for what they believe in for a change! Go Mr H Go!!!!!!!
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I do not like this Holroyd guys approach and whether he owns the land or not all I want to see is this situation sorted out, but this action by the Guernsey boys is appalling and if they were supported in there action by local government and more importantly the police and Sandpiper, what will be next trial without a jury!
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I feel that some of the people commenting have really lost the point of the whole controversy, I have read the documents provided by Mr Holroyd on his website, I have no legal background but what does interest me is that that nobody else has provided any documentation to prove that he doe not own the land, and in regards to compulsory purchase orders that have been suggested how would these individuals feel if locals businesses started parking in there driveways and the solutiontion available was CPO. Maybe it is time that States did something about this, or is it because they do not have case.
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Surely if T Holroyd does not have a legitimate claim, the States could have ordered him to move these cars, if not, why is it necessary to use concerned locals, who have themselves broke the law by damaging the vehicles
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Lynnie, what a shame you couldn’t simply comment without insulting me. I agree that there has been some intelligent discourse on this subject, mostly when the personal insults had ceased….
Thank you for your answer regardless. I fail to see how ownership of land is important in considering criminal damage though? If I break a car window on public land or land that belongs to a third party then it’s still criminal damage is it not?
And regarding towing… well, you say tow, I say steal. the Guernsey Boyz had no legal right to remove the cars from Cobo, just as I have no legal right to remove cars from North Beach. Isn’t the definition of theft to remove something without the owners consent?
Take Ken Shaw. How does he explain that someone smashed his car windows and removed his car to the police or insurance company??
I apologise for wasting your time on this ‘nonsensical’ topic. However, I believe that whilst the cars needed to be removed – and I join the rest of you in celebrating that they have been – this was not the way to do it and I only want to understand how the actions of the Guernsey Boys can be justified legally.
bcb – Mr H did report the theft of his various cars to the police – it’s in the other article on this topic.
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Student Bob
Taking without consent is not theft it is just taking without consent.
Theft is when there is intent to permanently deprive the owner of the use of.
In this case Mr Holroyd has not permanently been deprived the use of these vehicles so therefore no theft has been commited.
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Vee
You Say
how would you like it if i went and smashed all ur car windows in and removed it because i simply did not approve of where you parked? seriously how would you feel!
omg here we go again with another outrageous comment. And you wonder why people say some of the things they do.
They were not just parked they were DUMPED THERE to creat a problem.
And you ask “how would you feel” well i did leave an old car down at the salarie years ago, in the end the authorities took it away and dumped it, i felt happy they saved me from doing it, The cobo case is not that much different.
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Student Bob
Lynnie, what a shame you couldn’t simply comment without insulting me. I agree that there has been some intelligent discourse on this subject, mostly when the personal insults had ceased….
Are you havin a laugh ? hahaha, you`ve insulted lots of people on here either directly or with your childish sarcasm, try reading through some of your own posts esp your questionaire to Annie.
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There has been quite a lot of comment about the Police condoning the actions of the Guernsey Boys
I think they were there to record events just in case the law officers decide that the land does not belong to , or is not under the control of Mr Holroyd.
If the law Officers decide there was an offence then the Police are in possession of the video evidence to support a prosecution at some future date
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Thanks Steven. Taking without consent is illegal too tho’ isn’t it?
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this has opened up a right big can of worms…
i also cant begin to understand how some of you have forgotten that we have freedom of speech over here.
is this an open forum, or a slanging match?
i went down there today to see how much nicer it was, and i couldn’t tell there had been a clean up…the burnt cars had gone, but the whole area still looks like a tip!!
cars parked all over the place, boats rotting, rubbish everywhere.
the land needs to be landscaped and made to blend in, not look like an old boatyard.
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So are the police (sgt marshall) and Sandpiper making up the law now, how can the police say that there has been no criminal damage.
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So what is going on here, the police will not move the cars, the states will not say they own the land, Sandpiper get free use but will not maintain it, and then a possy rides through town and smashes up all the cars, what next Geoffery Archer for Mayor.
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What a good use of police time videoing the whole removal of cars parked at Cobo and then not seeing it as Criminal Damage – surely they have better things to do if they are not going to prosecute or am I mistaken?
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Student Bob
Yes TWOC is an offence but I don’t think it is a criminal offence. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.) Theft of course most definately is a crime.
There is I believe two offences concerning damage one termed criminal damage whereby the damage caused was for the sake of it and the other is causing damage whereby damage is caused as a by product of some other motive and not intended. Again one is criminal and the other not. (Again, if I am mistaken someone please correct me.)
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why are people focussing on Sandpiper?
I use that car park for the chippy. I rarely go into Checkers. Now that it is cleaner I will consider using it for trips to the beach.
The car park is treated as a community car park – just like at Vazon. WE benefit, not Sandpiper.
Do we think that the Vazon kiosk gets unfair benefit from the Vazon car park?
The proximity of Checkers has no bearing on whether Holroyd owns the land. It just gives him a reason to pretend that he does.
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Why are the States so silent on the matter of ownership of Cobo – surely it is a matter that can easily be resolved which leads me to believe that Holroyd does have a ligitimate claim to it. He has been the only one to post supporting documentation on the matter everyone else appears to have put their heads in the sand hoping that he will go away – but why should he? If owns the land then he owns it and he will probably look after it a damn sight better than how it isbeing looked after now – just look at the fight he has put up!
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On the ownership of the land – surely it is simple, lets just get everything out in the open and sort it once and for all then we can all go back to bigger and better things.
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Steven
Taking without consent is a criminal offence.
Re damage are you thinking about accidental damage. This would not apply in the Cobo case. It was deliberate.
You say in an earlier post “Taking without consent is not theft it is just taking without consent.
Theft is when there is intent to permanently deprive the owner of the use of”
Just think about this statement and how, if true,, it would provide a ready made excuse for not being prosecuted. Imagine someone takes something from your house and when caught by the Old Bill says I haven’t committed a crime because I intended returning the goods.
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Vee: just like bcb said, the cars where dumped there and not parked. Come round to my house and smash up my cars, that is against the law. Smashing up and removing dumped cars is not against the law. Simples! You assumed that I was an old person….wrong! I support the Guernsey Boys because they are making a difference on this island. The yocal states just fart around all day pondering on how many sugars to have in their coffee! Do something! And one more thing….never assume because it makes an ASS OUT OF YOU AND ME!
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TL I don’t understand your reasoning ‘just gives him a reason to pretend that he does’ makes no sence at all. Why would he go to all this bother ‘to pretend’ I am sure like all of us he wants a quiet life without all this hassle. If you owned it would you not fight for it maybe though it would be all far too much bother zzzzzz!
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Student Bob re your earlier posts – if you are going to use the lowest form of wit (sarcasm) it should at least be funny. Your ‘questionnaire’ was particularly unpleasant – get back to studying.
Can someone tell me why TH has not gone to court with this matter? The car park should be for community use until he proves otherwise (Iicidentally for TH to claim in the paper that the cars were road worthy is laughable – is that why he and his mates had to push them onto the car park?)
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Stephen – an essential element of theft is the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it. However, I doubt that any burglar claiming that they were intending to return the jewelry would be believed!
JoJo – a lot of people posting here seem to conclude that just because the States have done nothing that in some way this validates Mr Holroyds claim. However, whilst it may be difficult to determine which unknown person owns the land, it is fairly easy to determine whether a known person owns the land or not. Mr Holroyd claims that he bought the land relatively recently. His own evidence in support of that claim shows nothing of the sort. That in itself would suggest that the owner of the land is not him – if he had the evidence, he would produce it.
We may not know who owned the land 100 years ago but even if we assume that the seigneurs of that time were the owners (as this is clearly an essential element of Mr Holroyd’s claimed chain of ownership), we only need to see whether there was a conveyance of land down the chain of seigneurs since then, ending with Mr Holroyd. That is an easy job, and much easier than working out definitively who owns the land now. That is why the States have done nothing – it is difficult to establish the true owner, we can only rule out possibile owners, like Mr Holroyd.
So is there a chain of ownership from the seigneurs of 100 years ago to Mr Holroyd? Mr Holroyd has not even been able to show that there is a chain of ownership from his mother to him, let alone whether his mother acquired good title in the first place. I believe that it has been confirmed that there is no conveyance registered at the Greffe showing a transfer from Mrs Holroyd to AW Holdings around the time of the alleged transfer.
So even if his mother owned the land, he does not.
And then, nothing in the documents posted by Mr Holroyd shows that his mother was the owner, so then the questions go on…
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Jo Jo
The States are silent on this issue because it is nothing to do with the government and we have no power or wish to intervene in civil disputes. This matter can only be resolved in the courts where proof of land title and ownership will have to be established, so it is a judicial matter not a States matter.
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Interesting snippet in the press today…. Guernsey lad smashed a car window whilst drunk and was fined £600 and asked to pay £157 compensation. Obviously he should have claimed that he was a Guernsey Boy and walked out of court without charge and to a standing ovation…..
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TL, Unfortunately your discussion is once again unsupported as I am informed there is a conveyance of the land through the Royal Court to AW Holdings.
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JC – that is the first that I have heard of that.
Now if Mr Holroyd can just put it up on his website (instead of all of the other documents which do not show that he owns the land) then this matter could be put to rest.
I will believe it when I see it.
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Dave Jones
Surely the Police allegedly condoning criminal action is something the government should be interested in.
TL
You say “an essential element of theft is the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it.”
What you don’t say is the flexibility in interpretation.
We know for a fact that the Cobo boys took property belonging to another. Why did they take it? The assumption is to permanently deprive Mr Holroyd of his property.
If, after taking the property they had a pang of conscience and returned the property the original offence will stand with the returning of the goods , perhaps leading to a reduced sentence.
There is also the criminal damage aspect as well as taking away without consent.
Enough even for even the law officers to have a good chance of securing a conviction.
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Interesting snippet in the press today…. Guernsey lad smashed a car window whilst drunk and was fined £600 and asked to pay £157 compensation.
Obviously he didn`t see it was anything like the cobo cars and didn`t ask for special treatment. He also must have had the brains to not expect a standing ovation as that would be just as silly as someone suggesting he should have had one :)
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Stephen John – actually I think that they said that anyone wanting to claim a car as their could collect it from the pound – so no intention to permanently deprive, just an intention to remove from the car park.
I agree that the other offences appear to have been committed, but the discretion to prosecute is always exercised in the public interest. Presumably the view is that it would not be in the public interest in this case (unlike the drunken lad smashing a car window)
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SJ
The police are not controlled by the government either, they are independent of government, operational policy lays firmly in the hands of the Chief of Police and together with the Law officers it is the police who decide what is worthy of prosecution or not. The legislature passes the laws and the police carry out the enforcement of those laws as I said this disagreement has nothing whatsoever to do with the States of Guernsey.
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Dave
What does Geoff Mahy do?
Isn’t he the Home Minister?
The mandate in the Red Book includes being responsible for the Island police force and effective and efficient policing of Guernsey.
Whilst George Le Page has day to day responsibility for policing it must be of interest to the Home Minister when a named officer is alleged to have given his own decision of whether offences have been or not been committed.
And yes Dave I know it is the Law Officers who decide to prosecute.
The disagreement has nothing to do with the Government but the standard of policing certainly is of interest – if the mandate is right!!!
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No prosecution of the Guernsey Boys IS effective and efficient policing of Guernsey.
Thank you to a recent voice of sanity Dave Jones.
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SJ
It is as I say about operational policy, it is not for Geoff Mahy or any other politician to interfere on any given day just because they don’t like a particular decision by the police on any action or perceived inaction by a particular officer, that judgment call is for his or her superiors to sort out. The Home department’s job is to ensure that there are adequate amounts of police officers, fire officers and prison guards to run all these services properly. Once that has been accomplished then those departments have Chiefs, all of whom are well trained and who are responsible for the day to day operation of those departments. The elected members of the Home department board are their to formulate policy, prepare any future legislation for debate in the States and make sure all their responsibilities are adequately funded. It may be of interest from time to time to board members concerning different aspects of operational control and they are likely to comment I imagine when somthing raises their eyebrow but that in no way allows them to interfere or attempt to undermine the head of the force who is solely responsible for the policing of Guernsey, Alderney and Herm and the conduct of his officers.
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Dave Jones
If the function of the home Department is to “… ensure that there are adequate amounts of police officers, fire officers and prison guards to run all these services properly” then surely the Treasury department could look after the rations for the Police etc.
Mr Editor :some serious savings here!!!!!!! (LOL) and material for another Comment.
Incidentally Dave, who is George Le Page responsible to? A serious question. Thanks in anticipation.
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SJ
G le P is answerable in the first instance to the Home Department Board, secondly to Her Majesty’s Chief of Constabulary Inspectorate or whatever it is called these days, that carries out a review every two years I think it is, it may be every year. If there is a scathing report,(which I don’t recall there has ever been) then it becomes the responsibility of the States of Guernsey to either remove the current Home Department Board and undoubtedly the Chief of police in the process, appointing a new board and putting right whatever is deemed to be deficient. That of course has nothing to do with politicians interfering into the day to day operational functions of the police force.
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