UK ‘working to force change on Guernsey’
Tuesday 18th August 2009, 1:00PM BST.
THE UK has been accused of double standards after imposing direct rule on the Turks and Caicos.
Deputy Dave Jones wants the implications of Britain’s actions discussed at the next meeting of the Policy Council’s external relations group, on which he sits.
He said it was ironic that one badly administered country was taking over another.
As a British Overseas Territory, the islands have a different relationship with the UK than Guernsey, which is a Crown Dependency.
Politicians in the Turks and Caicos Islands have been accused of selling land for personal gain.
However, Deputy Jones (pictured) was incensed by the intervention.
‘What levels of deception, fraud, false accounting, theft of public funds is acceptable in the British Government that is wholly unacceptable in a foreign land?’ he said.
‘The sheer hypocrisy of these double standards is what several of us find hard to swallow.’
The problem for Guernsey was that it did not know what was possible under the current Labour Government, he added.
‘It doesn’t issue an air of stability itself. Relying on it for any stability as far as our relationship goes is probably wishful thinking.
‘The biggest problem with this Labour Government is it is actually working with others to force change on us. That’s what has fundamentally changed in our relationship.’
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I often find myself defending the words of Dave Jones but not this time. Comparing the mismanagement of the T&Cs to the mismanagement of the UK is ridiculous. From what I have read about situation in the T&Cs, the rule of law had broken down and the islands were collapsing into a banana republic with people genuinely afraid to speak out about those in power. Faced with that, I don’t think that imposing a Governor is unreasonable.
You cannot draw parallels between that situation and the relationship between Guernsey and the UK. By trying to do so it does a disservice to this Island.
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TL
I wasn’t trying to defend what was going on in the Turks & Caicos Islands, I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of this UK government. The full article is printed below.
British Government takes over administration of Turks & Caicos Islands.
One corrupt incompetent government takes over another. As the UK has descended in to little more than a third world country, with its political elite embroiled in fraud, deceit and corruption on a massive scale it attempts to set an example to others. State handouts to the banks in the billions, while those on unemployment benefit struggle to keep their homes. Meltdown in public services as council taxes rise to new unseen levels, with immigration and violent crime out of control.
You can hardly comprehend that the reason given for this bloodless coup is that good governance has broken down in the islands. I bet the mandarins in the Foreign office were struggling to keep a straight face as they attempted to persuade their political masters to impose direct rule on the T&C islands from Westminster on the strength of that.
The United Kingdom has become the subject of international ridicule, this incompetent Labour government which has brought this once great country to its knees should go and go now. While one unelected leader is on holiday the country is apparently being run by another unelected Lord, a man who has been sacked from the government he now purports to lead, twice. As they say you couldn’t make it up.
Deputy Dave Jones
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Here, Mr Jones, I have corrected this for you….
“He said it was ironic that one badly administered country was taking over another **badly administered country**.
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TL
so whats different in guernsey
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As a former long time resident of the T&C to in anyway draw any conclusion, implications or any other parallel with the constitutional relationship that the Bailiwick enjoys with HMG is, with respect to Deputy Jones, a wholly misconceived effort starting from an abundantly false premise that shows an unusual level of niavety as to the background. MP’s taking the mickey under their rules on expenses is very different to the level of corruption, fear and intimidation that has been present over the last few years in the T&C. It’s one thing for MP’s to offend the public by claiming (lawfully) for surround sound tvs’ or for a government to set up unaccountable quangos, quite another to apparently line the pockets of friends and family to the tune of literally millions of dollars.
What is shocking is not that HMG intervened in the TCI but that they didn’t do so earlier particularly bearing in mind the prior intervention in the late 80′s.
The constitutional grounds for reponsibility for “good governance” have long been welll understood in the context of the relations between the UK and both Guernsey and Jersey – UKIP style panic mongering as to our relations with the UK is uncalled for (forgive me but part of the Deputy’s comment could come straight out of a UKIP manifesto pamphlet). More importantly, in this instance, whilst the OFC’s are being made scapegoats for everything from the credit crunch to swine flu, the Deputy’s outspokeness does not assist anyone either here or abroad.
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Dave Jones
Whilst I see where you are coming from, I’m with TL on this one. I’ve been following the Turks & Caicos sorry for quite some time now and the sheer scale of the corruption is mind-boggling. The UK Government simply had no choice but to intervene in this instance.
Yes, there could well be some degree of hypocrisy when compared with what is happening in the UK, but given the impact at local level of Misick’s fraud, the Turks and Caicos Islands government had effectively collapsed and it needed the UK to intervene to maintain order before order is lost altogether.
I really don’t see much of a parallel to here. The UK has always been able to intervene here if it saw fit, but I don’t think you are really comparing apples with apples.
It is though a lesson to us and to all other British dependencies, whether Crown Colonies or Crown Dependencies, that we must remain properly governed and uncorrupted.
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Dave – your reply certainly has a different emphasis than the GP online article, I give you that. Still not sure why we would want to use the T&C situation as a hook on which to hang some criticism of the UK. Their mismanagement of themselves is their business IMO. Only when they try to interfere with us (Lord Wally Wallace springs to mind) do I care what they do – but then I think it is better to defend ourselves on the principles on that issue. I guess I can’t see why you bothered to write the attached.
bella – I assume you are being facetious.
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Al
I can assure you it is not naivety, perhaps you can you tell me what is the difference between one set of elected representatives being involved in fraud, misappropriation and theft through deception of public funds on a massive scale and another bunch in a foreign land somewhere else, perhaps it is because the lot in Westminster are British, so that makes it alright then. These people weren’t just taking the “Mickey” they were stealing public funds by false accounting and some of them should be facing a judge for what they did, if you think they were just taking the “Mick” then I would suggest it is you who is being naive. Much of what they did was completely unlawful, unless you think that claiming for nonexistent mortgages is not a crime. As for unaccountable quangos the British government is riddled with them the taxpayer can’t even find out who sits on most of them or is even aware that many of them exist. Also in my piece I never drew any distinction between these islands and HMG, except to point out that the British government is actively working with others to force change upon us, which is a fundamental shift in their position from all previous UK governments that we have had very happy relationships with in the past seven decades because they recognised our right to be different. I think we as people have a duty to be outspoken and if more people were, instead of talking behind their hands then the UK might not be in the shocking mess it is.
David
I hear and agree with what you say, which is why I am not defending the corrupt government of T&C islands but where I find it hard to keep a straight face is when this hypocritical Labour government who refuse to do anything about the fraud and corruption in the UK and the astonishing levels within the EU start lecturing others. It is our people who will decide if we are properly governed not some unelected bunch of officials in the Foreign & Commonwealth office. The UK is no longer in charge of its own destiny; it has become a small region of a country called Europe. You may not see the danger to these island autonomy but I take a different view.
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Policy Council member Deputy Jones is genuinely respected for his forthright but honest appraisals of situations, and his defence of certain core principles such as Freedom of Speech.
“…The UK is little more than a Third World country…the subject of international ridicule…”.
I’m sure that will chime with many of you, but how are you coming to those conclusions?
Basically, this is the same propaganda that the tribes in the Afghan mountains are being fed by the recruiting agents of various small armies. The corruption, the vulgarity, the immoral base level of the culture is pummeled into the heads of martyr hopefuls.
Is it really that bad Policy Council member Deputy Dave Jones? Bad enough to get column inches to assess the enemy?
Just a thought: hasn’t it been Gordon Brown that pushed through economic policy specifically to massively increase UK dependence on the finance industry (a 10th of UK GDP now), allowing no regulation on evolving strategies and confirming Guernsey’s place within the millions of transactions going round and round the globe, glistening like gold and hypnotising…
…but boy, we know we want more and more?
New Labour have assisted the realisation of undreamt riches that these guys could only previously speculate childishly about.
Guernsey got as much from Brown’s ideology as any politician in the UK could have given without alienating himself with the populist media.
I’m not going to start defending the New Labour project, and Mandelson is from another dimension, but is he? He is the political embodiment of the mobile rich. A fixer. He’s right at home now the facade of earnest politics for the people has fallen revealing the true nature of political power. Rich blokes who dodge tax in yachts with considerable financial investments in key global corps that are now running all the privatised utilities in the UK, key infrastructure, and a whole raft of organisations that help shape social trends and opinion.
Isn’t that exactly what the Guernsey Press is aiming for by aiming its eager snortings of outrage at public sector spending?
I’m confused, Deputy Jones. Maybe I’m the only one. Like Little Britain, maybe.
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Dave Jones
Politicians involved in land/property deals?
Perhaps we ought to look closer to home, the monstrosity planned at Coupee Lane for a start?
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Dep Jones, UKIPitty clop goes the old warhorse.
Nigel Farage scammed £2M of EU tax payer money to further his ideal of a free for all for the landed gentries.
Top message there, Dave, filthy habits. If you feel that strongly about it, I would hang up your UKIP rallying cry and plough on alone.
Like Robert Kilroy-Silk.
What a guy!
Are these the international ‘ridiculers’ you’re talking about? A bunch of chancers?
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Phil
Also worth looking very closely at several field purchases at each end of the airport runway over the past decade.
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BJ
To my knowledge Nigel Farage most certainly did NOT “scam” anything from the EU taxpayer, he claimed what he was legitimately entitled to claim under the EU rules as did Leon Brittan, The two Kinnocks, Peter Mandelson and every other MEP working in Brussels. It is the system that is wrong, all MEP’s expenses can be scrutinised unlike the expenses of EU officials and at least UKIP are being honest with the British people by telling them they would be better off out of this so called union. Instead of this sham by the conservatives who keep telling anyone who will listen that the EU can be reformed which it cannot and the useless Liberals and Labour who want to run up the white flag and surrender what’s left of British sovereignty to an un-elected bunch of officials in Brussels. If you want to talk about fraud and corruption.
Because of the blanket immunity given to all EU officials, corruption and the plundering of EU funds is endemic, the European Union auditors have refused to sign off the EU accounts for the past 13 years, due to the vast amounts of money that is unaccounted for, or “irregularities” as they so tactfully put it. Millions have disappeared either through looting, corruption or fraud, together with the misappropriation of agricultural grants on a colossal scale. In 1998 Paul van Buitenen a Dutch accountant employed by the EU commission as an assistant auditor, sent MEP’s a 34-page letter, together with 600 pages of supporting documents detailing numerous instances of corruption he had identified in his time as one of the official auditors. In a recent article by John Laughland in the European Journal, he says and I quote “According to the commission itself, 1,155 billion euros disappeared through “irregularities” in 2006, although this includes mistakes made in good faith. However even the Commission admits that 320 million euros have been deliberately stolen with the figure of nearly 1 million euros a day.”What few investigations have taken place into these missing funds have been continually impeded or interfered with by EU officials and the Commission on a grand scale. As a result none of those responsible for money that has clearly been stolen through outright theft or embezzled from various funds have ever been personally disciplined or brought before the courts for their crimes. In the real world where you and I live, theft is still a crime and if the Commissioners were directors of a public company with it’s accounts in such an appalling mess, there is little doubt that those responsible would find themselves facing a judge and possibly long periods in jail. (The Financial Times of July 98 says) that the Court of Auditors published a report criticising the Commission’s anti-fraud measures as “wholly inadequate” and it’s anti-fraud unit the UCLAF as “highly inefficient and unprofessional.”
The Court of Auditors also admits that 80% of all EU funds are never properly accounted for. Some estimates put that as high as 95%. The EU’s own financial regulation 2342/2002 Article 87 says that there is no need to attempt recovery of any sum less than 1 million Euros.It gets worse, In a recent article in the German newspaper Der Spiegel it tells tell us from a reputable source that “there are currently over 400 investigative procedures pending against EU officials, of which about 70 are officials from the European commission.” That’s the current state of the EU finances.
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Leaving aside the Dave Jones bashing for a moment, there is a serious underlying point here.
It is becoming increasingly apparent from statements by the UK Governement, and by individuals like Lord Wallace, that there is indeed a movement to force change on the governance of the Channel Islands. Such moves are no doubt driven by a UK government desparate to increase its tax revenues but, whatever the reason, I would suggest that this is something we Islanders need to think about.
It is possible that, ultimately, we may one day find ourselves in a position where the UK will move to change our constitutional relationship so that they can exert more influence over us?
It may never happen but if it does we would do well to have thought about what action we can take.
Could there, for example, ever be a case for Guernsey declaring independence from the UK – and if so how would we go about achieving it?
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Dave Jones
Now that you’ve got another rant about the EU out of your system, do you have any comments on local politicians’ involvement in land deals, starting with Coupee Lane and, since David mentioned it, fields adjoining the airport runway.
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CD Being bashed is something I am well used too but you do make a good point, I believe huge pressure is being put on the British government by EU officials who know they cannot directly impose their will upon us as we are not part of the EU but if they can force change on our constitutional position and bring us under direct control of Westminster that could change which would have the effect of closing us down as a business centre. On the question of independence I believe it would have to be together with Jersey, Alderney and Sark but it is perfectly possible, we are almost there, we have our own parliament, courts and laws our own money and flag, I believe Jersey’s preparation for independence is far more advanced than anything we have done to date. It would also lead to many more shared services between the islands as one thing we would need to achieve is economies of scale but it has to be said it remains the nuclear option.
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Dave Jones
At the risk of sounding repetitive (this is my third time of asking) any comments on local politicians being involved in controversial property deals (see previous posts for more details).
Also, why on earth would we want to become involved with a rotten jurisdiction such as Jersey? We in Guernsey may have our faults but compared to Jersey we are brilliant white. Look at the way their justice system and States works, it’s truly disgusting the way that they carry on. One only has to look at the historic child abuse investigation to see how foul their system is.
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CD – absolutely.
If we have concerns about the UK’s view of us (which we should have) then we need to think clearly on that issue. Mixing up the message by talking about corrupt islands in the west indies is not going to help.
Personally, I think that the UK has little chance of increasing its control because that would contradict modern principles of self determination. However, we need to assess whether we get any valuable protection from the UK so we know what it is that they could withdraw if they saw fit to do so.
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Dave Jones
Yawn.
The EU accounts are massively complicated involving the standardisation of all member states reporting and introducing new systems in those states.
Guernsey can’t even produce a balance sheet.
Get real, the “irregularities” are a sign of the challenge, if it were corrupt it would have got them signed off! If you think that the millions that probably are being misappropriated (makes me think of the firesale of UK assets Thatcher started – I wonder where that’s all gone?) count for anything material within the numbers then you’re sadly just chasing the same old quotes. No one can pretend that the EU is to everyone’s tastes, and serious debate should take place, but not this spreading of misinformation, Dave Jones.
It just sounds like you’re reading any propaganda pamphlet from any host of disparate, desperate nationalists. That’s not ‘telling like it is’, it’s peddling fear.
Democracy needs education. The EU can only be influenced by engaging with it. UKIPs strategy is divide and conquer, spread as much filth as you can until it’s repeated daily by allies in the Media. It’s stunts are derisory.
The real source of ridicule for the UK. Can’t you see what this language says to the world?
Closed shop.
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Phil you have me at a disadvantage, if you could give me the details of which politicians are involved in any land deals at the airport or the Coupee lane development, I might be prepared to comment.
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Why do we keep our currency pegged to Sterling? Surely there is an argument for pegging it to the Euro now that currency is well established?
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Arnald
This does not come from any propaganda leaflet; this comes from the EU commission itself I repeat.
“According to the commission itself, 1,155 billion euros disappeared through “irregularities” in 2006, although this includes mistakes made in good faith. However even the Commission admits that 320 million euros have been deliberately stolen with the figure of nearly 1 million euros a day.” If it is only propaganda then why are so many officials under investigation or as the German newspaper Der Spiegel it tells tell us that “there are currently over 400 investigative procedures pending against EU officials, of which about 70 are officials from the European commission.” UKIP’s strategy is to seek an amicable divorce from the EU and return to trading with Europe which is what the British people thought they signed up to in the first place.
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Dave Jones
These examples are commonplace in all centrally run models. The financial sign off of sub projects is rarely properly scrutinised. It’s nothing more than out of control NGOs and greedy folk abusing the system. To say that the EU is any more corrupt than the US system or any large multinational is propaganda.
Yes, we could go back to the Seventies, or we can look for contemporary solutions, but I can’t buy into this hysteria because the leading voices have large vested interests (Murdoch and other media ‘barons’ for instance) in maintaining whatever they have (favours with UK politicians, monopoly rights etc) and the lies around identity and culture are just absurd.
One of the aspects of the Lisbon Treaty is to apportion more accountability into the structures. The thieving you mention would be mitigated by simpler systems. More cooperation, not less, seems a sensible way forwards.
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Dave
I have been told that Jack Honeybill had an interest in the land at Coupee Lane, which was acquired prior to any planning permission being granted, then sold once permission came through.
Are you aware that Deputy Honeybill ever had any such interest (or something similar, I appreciate my details may not be 100% accurate)?
On the issue of the airport land, it wasn’t me who originally mentioned it, perhaps David may be prepared to elaborate?
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Is it not about time that Guernsey had a plan if the UK becomes too tiresome. Wasn’t Roger Perrot going to hold a public meeting in October to present some ideas and give the general public a chance to comment and basically get the ball rolling? He did write a very good article a while back which was published in the Press. If Jersey has formulated plans just in case I think it’s about time Guernsey did also. I would imagine the Channel Islands would have to go UDI collectively as it’s not going to be viable for either Jersey or Guernsey to go it alone.
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Phil It would seem the Jack Honeybill had an involvement with this site before he became a Deputy, as I understand it his involvement ended some time ago when the site was sold on, more than that I cannot comment on, except to say that it was a perfectly legitimate business deal and to my knowledge there has been no accusations of dishonesty or bad business practice, unless you know different, or what any other accusations against Deputy Honeybill may be.
Beaufort
I spoke to Roger the other day and the meeting in October is going a head as planned although I can’t put my hands on the date, I think its around the 22nd but I would have to check, it is to be held at St James and I am hoping to get an opportunity to speak on the day. Roger is considered by many, including me to be a staunch supporter of more independence for the Islands and has written several articles and letters on the subject, he shares my distrust of this present Labour government and has said so on several occasions. this distrust of the UK government is only surpassed however by our distrust of the EU.
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Phil
I will be more comfortable providing details of what I have heard about land transactions around the airport by a former senior politician offline to Dave Jones. These sorts of sites can be very dangerous if names are named and something turns out to be something other than has been suggested. I don’t have proof, although I’ve heard pretty reliable allegations but I’m not convinced that its enough to go public on the naming of any individuals.
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On David’s land deal by former senior politician, l have also heard the name mentioned, about this and other States Projects.
If David Jones has not aware of these, he must be the only one.
Also as Jack Honeybill is a well paid St. Peter Port Deputy, retired bank manager, and paid on numerous committees.
Why is he employed by the Town Centre Partnership?
Why does he not do it free for the love of the Island?
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David
Fair enough. Good luck with that approach. You can make a smoothie without squashing berries, as the old saying goes!!
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basically guernsey is running out of money,it cant tax the banks anymore it wont tax the wealthy more for fear they might go.for years the states have had massive overspends on projects and by the time this incinerater has been paid for there wont be much left.how can it afford independence it does not have its own currency it uses stirling ,alot of these small states borrow other countrys currencys so are not that indepedent after all.i agree with dave jones that the eu has wasted money and there should be a debatein britain about continued membership,but i think roger perrot goes too far ,he and his supporters just appear to be a rich mans club looking out for their investments.i dont think things would be any better for average islanders and in time life would become far more difficult under any indepedence.
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Didn’t Roger Perrot say something like we are paying too much tax already and we should choose how we use it? Do I remember him implying we should use charities and volunteers to deliver public services? Slaves?
Haha, at least that way you wouldn’t have to educate anyone and they could shine his shoes!
Great man, great ideas.
More tea wallah!
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David J
I hear lots of tittle tattle and accusations made against all kinds of people, very little of it has had any substance to it at all, why should I know about the business dealings of other States members? As to your other questions I can only say why don’t you give Jack Honeybill a ring and ask him? His number is in the front of the phone book under Deputies for St Peter Port (North) as for any land deal at the airport, if people give me the details I can check them out but it is very difficult to check out rumours or gossip we, all of us need much more than that.
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I cannot see any good coming from Independence at the moment – provided the UK doesn’t go further than its sabre rattling to get good soundbites for the Daily Mail readership. But it would be worth assessing objectively what we get from the current relationship, so that we know whether it is an asset or not. I personally think it is a huge asset.
I also think that there is a good case for raising income taxes as we are clearly not balancing our books at the moment. We make some good money as an island and we need to ensure that passes down to the whole of the community much more than it does now IMO. We are too small a place to allow public services to deteriorate.
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Dave Jones
What’s your email address please ?
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Dave Jones.
It was a question.
Do you think Jack Honeybill should take a salary from the Town Centre Partnership? Yes or No?
I had a few discussions with the said deputy on bringing over french markets, l have no problem with this.
My only beef with this is that since he is paid by the taxpayers, he should at least, do something for the local markets and local businesses first, rather than the nothing he does at present.
Charity begins at home.
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Dave Jones, please would you answer for the record.
As you all know the chances of the UK Labour government being re-elected are NIL. This means that in their desperate measures to obtain money to further overspend they are seeking to raise taxes from anyone they can.
Dave for the record, please can you inform the readers why a referendum calling for complete independance from the UK has never taken place, and why this is? Do you support complete independence? Do you support a referendum by the people who elected you?
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The question I would ask is are we ready for independence, do we need Jersey or can we put them aside, do we have a none corruptible, fair and balanced government and judicial system in place in order that we can move forwards and breakaway along with the other islands in the Bailiwick. Do we have the correct social policies in place so the greedy local and none local rich do not take over the island and create an even bigger divide. I have my concerns that before any move is made we take a long hard look at the model of government we have now and ask is this the model we can move with or is another model of government required. Of course, any final decision on the Bailiwicks independence should be via a public referendum because without the public support it will not work. I personally think we should have an oath of allegiance to the Bailiwick and one’s island home built into any new constitution, which will arise from any move towards independence.
With regards the sleaze, corruption, and millions wasted on nothing-in Brussels, it happens I am sure but we need to get our own house in order first before we judge others.
David – the gossip about the land purchased either side of the runway is legend and goes back to the 80′s.
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Yes we do TL, and a tax on the value of land and from the proceeds of sale. The efficiency of the market erodes even more through time when assets are passed untaxed, and then also the threat that the rich landowners will move out is negated.
Trott has already been quoted as saying that income tax is at it’s highest and cannot be raised.
That is not political democracy.
Do you see where I’m coming from?
Discussing this would be easier and less likely to offend face to face, wouldn’t it? If you want to send a msg through here for the mods and I’ll give you my email. I’m aware that if I say anything that points a derogatory finger towards Guernsey specifics then they become googlable. Not ideal. Not my intention.
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All very well from some astute writers, or soothsayers or whatever.
I’m old fashioned and still believe that leopards cannot change their spots.
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David J
I hold no strong view on it one way or another, if the Town Centre partnership is happy to pay Jack Honeybill then that it is clearly a matter for them, it is not for me to question the wisdom of their board on how they conduct their business.
Chas
No referendum has been held because full independence is still seen by many to be the nuclear option, there is no doubt in my mind that we could not go it alone and would need Jersey and the other islands firmly on board in a united federation of the Norman Isles. I also have no doubt that if there was a serous threat made by the British government against our autonomy then we would seriously consider the independence option and I would support that move. I certainly support the peoples right to have a say in this important matter and would insist that it was put to the people of Guernsey should we find ourselves in that position. However we are not there yet and a couple of stupid comments from some witless Liberal Lord doesn’t mean diddly squat.
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Hang on Dave! “United Federation of the Norman Isles” – what are you on?
Sounds like the “Peoples Popular Front of Judea” to me. What have the Romans ever done for us eh?
Ah yes I can see it now; King Perrot and his faithful leige Prince Jonsey – crusading the wrongs of the EU, the UK and anywhere else their world domination plans take them.
It appears that the only thing UKIP, Dave etc are “independent” of is reality.
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Gilthead;
Well said, what can you expect from the so thinking ‘Master Race’.
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Not sure “Master Race” sprang to my mind Eric.
However behind my post was a serious point – if we do become “independent” from the Crown (and therefore the UK) then we have to allign ourselves somewhere. Do we not?
I’d suggest that would be the EU. Would make sense wouldn’t it?
Or perhaps the Federated States of Micronesia or Burmha or North Korea…
Please stop the jingoistic ramblings Deputy Jones and get on with what you are paid for.
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Gilthead
I would much rather have RP at the front than you it would seem his understanding of the situation is slightly more advanced than yours
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PS Gilthead
I do what the public pay me for 7 days a week and i have never had any complaints on that score. I was working on Housing papers in my office at 6 am this morning and I will still be working tonight when you are probably in bed, so please grow up. If you want serious debate fine but I will not indulge in the kind of infantile drivel you have posted here.
And incidentally, I do my ramblings in my own time.
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Dave Jones:
Could you explain something to me please. I realise our relationship with the UK is written into statute linking back into history, however is it not possible to seek an inclusion to the statute that would disallow the UK from altering the terms of our independence without our consent?
Thanks, in anticipation.
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As ever Mr Jones you miss the point. And indeed a comma in your reply. However.
By talking “up” independence your point is what? There is no point – is there?
The UK will not take us over and we will not become “independent”. So there.
I really think you should concentrate on more menial matters – like running our government for the benefit of those who you purport to represent.
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GILTHEAD:
I’m afraid I must correct you. This UK Government has passed more laws that the UK have never had a chance to vote on than the Nazis did during their reign in the first part of the last century. These include some constitutional reforms that the UK public were promised a referendum on, a promise that Labour reneged on because they knew they would lose to the public.
If you think the UK has not the courage or the gall to steal more power over us then you are being exceptionally naive.
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Guilthead
I wish I had as much faith in the UK government as you appear to have, I am on the External Relations Group and therefore it is part of my job to keep a close watch on our constitutional position. I see lots of interesting documents that do not necessarily instil in me the sort of blind faith you seem to have. Secondly I wasn’t aware I was “talking up” independence in fact in one of my previous posts I called it the “nuclear option”.
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Deputy Jones is to be respected for his willingness to nail his colours to masts. There is no mucking about. No need for any second-guessing of politic-speak.
I would ask him, and Mr Perrot, one thing:
We are very dependent on business from the City, as are those institutions in the City that have some dependence on their Guernsey subsidiaries. Assuming that a Guernsey ‘revolt’ removes any favours, or increases their price, or makes it legally less attractive – the same for EU trading, are we looking therefore to make our necessary growth to sustain the zero ten logic from the emerging markets, and from the GuernseyFinance initiatives in China or Russia?
If that is the case, it may well not be (how am I supposed to know?), then will any business strategy be included in a referendum? Will the public have the necessary information to balance the strong and misinformative rhetoric from the Dep Jones style of delivery, or the “every man is an island, it’s just that my island is considerably better than yours, with bells on – to hell if you can’t float” libertarian dystopia that Mr Perrot can’t help advertising?
For those calling for a referendum on everything: what would happen if the States decided a question should be put to vote right now, “Do you think that HSSD should receive a budget cut in order for it to learn to be more efficient?”?
Judging by the sentiments expressed here, Health would get a cut despite recognising that without a raise, it will have to reduce the level of care it provides through central revenue. You could say that it was pure democracy in action.
Or you could say it was a cynical manipulation of the truth in order to colour public opinion.
Any referendum affecting business costs, such as taxation, will be lobbied for/against. The more money thrown at campaigns, the more successful they are. Who has the most money and who has most to gain from being able to influence policy decisions?
Are we sure that the Turks & Caicos sideswipe from an obviously popular English Peer (sarcasm) (aren’t our Crown representatives unelected and unaccountable? Yet we are told that Deputy Trott as CM is not the public figurehead, he was elected…) isn’t far from a realisable future?
What type of people will we attract under our ‘benefits for riches’ policies when we introduce added constitutional barriers to international cooperation?
I suppose I better get to that meeting and put my hand up.
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Independence for Dibley or is it Pimlico…a comedy one way or another.
There goes our political stability. There goes the larger part of the “decent” bits of finance.
As Arnald asks, I think we would be reduced to picking some of the grubbier business we’d been declining for the last twenty years.
Gilthead has it about right – if we want to ditch the UK, then semi-independence in Europe is the only (barely) affordable option. VAT in – spent on Brussells representation in the wink of an eye.
Would I prefer Guernsey/ C I to be a “county” of UK, governed by London? Better than full independence, for sure. Better still, a micro-department of France, but our “Frenchness” doesn’t seem to run to language.
By all means work to preserve the “traditional” position.
Is it the constitutional position that is objected to by London, however, or the perceived (by some) abuses that flow therefrom? If the latter, then there needs to be some changes made, perhaps.
Better independent, as now, but WITHOUT the finance industry, than a minor UK county or EU sattelite similarly WITHOUT the finance industry. Independence outside Europe/UK and with a pariah finance sector would be utterly abysmal.
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I have noticed that there have been more references to ‘independence’ in this thread.
I shall repeat something that I wrote back in January and again when Lord Jones intimated that Guernsey fought for its independance.
quote. “England would love to be rid of us for the simple reason that their european relations are stressed by having autonomous dependencies. They are therefore trying to encourage us to first desire and then fight for our independance. After a reasonable effort at denying us they would then ‘reluctantly’ acquiesce, thereby achieving their objective with minimum cost.
Be very wary of anyone pro independance.”
“Our charter with the Crown of England is priceless and belongs to us all. Now that Lord Jones has made this move I would implore the people of Guernsey to be on their guard against anyone trying to sell us out for ‘4o pieces of silver’ to line their own pockets.” End quote.
We need not fear the United Kingdoms’ government or their political parties as we are not part of the UK.
Let’s just suppose that we ‘won’ our independance, consider the following which I wrote on the thread http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2009/03/10/were-not-a-tax-haven-argue-finance-leaders/
Quote.
Regardless of what we believe we are, either tax haven or financial centre it is what we are perceived to be that matters. For those that think cutting ties with the UK and becoming independant is an answer al la Lord Jones, think again. Once we are independant all EC countries could be directed to tax any aircraft and boat that enters an EC port from a tax harmful area £1,000,000 or whatever. Our charter guarantees us free movement and trade with England and that is priceless.
If the policy council is planning a contingecy of independance instead of a contingency of diversification then they are not working in Guernseys best interest.
Whilst on the subject of the UK and dependance/independance, I’m not sure as to what is trying to be achieved by Guernsey boats wearing an ensign consisting of the union flag. Much more in keeping with reality would be St. Georges cross with the gold cross in the canton, or the Guernsey flag itself!
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Further to my previous post.
I remember hearing somewhere that a Guernsey boat has the right to wear the plain St Georges cross as an ensign, a similar right as Admirals have.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
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Steven:
I could be wrong about this ; yet I believe it was the flag of the Merchant Navy that was in Question.
And if I remember rightly it was in the 50s that the subject came up:
‘When Ronnie Munson flew the flag on his boat,
Some Visitor questioned the right, and I do believe it was given the OK to fly on the Ferries to Herm.
En Passant; The flag of St George isn’t English in the first place; I believe it came from the Middle European lands. Poland I believe. But don’t quote me on that.
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There was a time when successive UK governments respected our constitutional relationship. Every now and then, George Foulkes comes to mind some random UK politician would demand Guernsey being folded into the county of Hampshire.
I’m not sure if it’s the real politique of a globalised world but we are certainly under more pressure to toe the line in many areas.
Those of our politicians who deal with external relationships have two choices; agree with everything that’s ‘suggested’ by our larger neighbours or taking a more Swiss attitude to the rest of the world.
From someone who has been involved with many negotiations sometimes saying ‘no’ every now and then and reminding those on the other side of the table of our constitutional position is no bad thing.
Talk of independence is populist and silly.
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Neil, you are dismissive of any talk of independence. Luckily on this forum, you have little to worry about; most here are more concerned with independance, whatever that may be.
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Independence from the UK would be a good thing.
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Ted an Englishman would rightly use ‘independent’ whereas a Guernseyman would more likely use ‘independant’ probably due to our French origins.
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Yeah right; and to he who has such high thoughts of the EU ? I would just say this.
It was the King who had the new clothes.
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