Shadow Commission is a step to joined-up law enforcement
Wednesday 26th August 2009, 11:30AM BST.
A SHADOW Law Enforcement Commission should be in place by January.
It is another step in forming a full commission that aims to produce a more joined-up Customs and police operation.
It will also help avoid any duplication and will separate operational duties from political involvement.
Home minister Geoff Mahy is chairing the steering group that will produce detailed proposals for the commission.
He said it was currently organising a series of meetings with all Customs and police staff to discuss the proposals – which would see Customs become known as the Border Control Agency.
‘It’s a radical approach to law enforcement in the Bailiwick,’ Deputy Mahy (pictured) said. ‘It’s looking to free the police so they can concentrate on community policing, which includes all levels of crime.
‘Change is not easy but we are effecting change for optimum results.’
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More political wranglings that will cost money.
The UK merged HMC and Inland Revenue to become HMRC and it is totally hopeless.
SOCA arose out of a merger which did away with SFO and other areas – the difference? Not a lot.
I do not believe Customs and Police should be joined – the remits are quite disparate and very different.
Leave sweeping up the drunken morons to the Police and let Customs bring in the revenue and tackle drug trafficking and fiscal investigations.
Customs Officers are generall better equipped than the Police to deal with the vagaries of organised crime in Guernsey, with better systems and processes in place……
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The Home Department, if not the whole of the States, appear to inhabit a time-warped world where every move is orthogonal to progress.
It is easy to imagine the amount of effort now being put into reorganising the Police and Customs’ joint effort in supporting the failed anti-drugs strategy.
That strategy is, to use the current cliche, the elephant in the room that no one used to dare mention for fear of twenty lashings of Mike Torode’s tongue. Dare one point out that he is gone? It is now safe to point out that the only supporters of that strategy here and in the UK are the inhabitants of such time-warped worlds where saying ‘boo’ to drugs is deemed to be effective.
Perhaps the Home Department’s time would be better spent bringing about more of the progress mentioned in the Prison Inspector’s review. The need for so much progress in our purpose-built, modern, prison is another facet of the time-warped world of the Home Department.
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Just more excuses to give the *Boys* a cushy number; then on retirement with a big large enormous staggering pension.
When will the ruling body do someting useful for the Islanders.
It’s wicked to see how the present States flaunt the trust put to them by the Islanders.
If the island has any sense then next time round they’ll be obsolete. and no big pension; Here I refer to the present ‘Ghost busters’ Because they fake up so much that makes me believe it’s Ghosts of times past.
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I cannot believe what I have just read!
I agree with Darren’s comments other than the point of fiscal investigations. That is the remit of the Police and should stay there. Most of those types of investigation are crime related particularly theft and fraud offences. That is not something that should be given to Customs to deal with, looks to me as though someone is building an empire.
Customs do very well with drug importations and excise duty and the job of immigration and the ports. Leave it that way.
If we have another commission it will require senior, middle and junior management before we even look at the people to investigate. More people sitting behind a desk and the job still not getting done! that cannot be right, cant it Minister?
Nice sentiment from the Minister, community policing, does he know what that means? Sounds to me like he is looking to take away all the specialist roles that the Police undertake and give them to Customs! In my view that would be wrong – things like this might make me want to stand to be a deputy.
Perhaps we need some sensible ministers who rather than tinkering, should leave well alone, and allow the Chief Officers of both Police and Customs to get on with what they do well already.
Darren made the point about HMR&C and SOCA. Too much tinkering there also, I have the knowledge and experience of that, and all it did was cause resentment in the UK and both lost good experienced officers who felt that their hands were tied.
Financial Investigation is not a customs matter, unless it comes from proceeds of drug importation, it has been and should continue to be a role for the Police!
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It is difficult to understand Please don’t tinker’s posting inasmuch as his second and last paragraphs contradict each other on the point as to whether Customs should undertake fiscal/financial investigations.
He/she says “Customs do very well with drug importations”. If that were really true I would grudgingly support the anti-drugs strategy. Although it is true that Customs intercept some importations, it is only too obvious that the supply locally is hardly affected. Hence it is a waste of time and money, quite apart from it being mind-numbingly wrongly directed.
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Who will investigate the next theft from the Custom’s safe ?
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Don’t worry Ray, you should know by now it will be called an Office enquiry, nothing to do with the public.
Well if so be the case with all these fraudulent happenings. then I suggest that the Island ceases to pay them. It should then be there own affair.
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Dear David
If you know the background of what each department do it is not too difficult to understand and perhaps I should have been more clear – sorry about that…
Customs financial investigations are undertaken when they have arrested and prosecuted an individual for a drug trafficking offence. They establish the benefit which the suspect has made from Drug Trafficking and the Court decides what figure if any they will impose for the defendant to pay.
The Police do the rest of the fraud investigations.
I am a little confused when he states “grudgingly support the anti-drugs strategy”. Why so, grudgingly? Drugs are a menace to society which is why they are illegal. Should we not all support what the agencies are doing to try and rid the island of them? You only have to watch the news and read in the media what devastation they can have on individuals and families, surely we should support all we can.
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@ Darren:
You’ve misunderstood what is happening here…
The LEC is not a merger – it is a whole new States Department that will ‘oversee’ Customs (to be renamed), the police and a few other agencies on the island with new legislation providing it with a legal basis for operation. I’m not saying I agree with it, I just want to make the point that the police and customs are not being merged.
In addition, SOCA in the UK most certainly did not do away with the SFO, which is still very much alive and kicking! And SOCA did make a difference, a huge difference in fact, not for the better at all. In fact, so far SOCA is an out an out disaster for the UK.
But I think (tell me if I’m wrong) that in essence, we agree with each other – the LEC is a waste of money and will be yet another financial black-hole for the guernsey tax payer.
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Please don’t tinker
If the drug strategy was successful there would be drastic reductions all over the world in the amount of ‘devastation’. Things are getting worse. The amount spent worldwide is staggering. All of that effort is keeping a black market bouyant and the criminals are always ahead of the game. That’s what money does. Buys privileges.
That is why it is misguided. We all want to see an end to the ‘devastation’. Helping criminals make profits is not the way forward.
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It is worrying to see our masters working on new ways to spend our money when what is required at the moment is that they look for ways to save it.
Further, since this new cost centre needs new legislation,presumably, it will place a further burden on our legal draftsmen whose timetable already stretches far into the future. What laws already passed but not yet put into effect will have to go to the back of the queue to allow LEC to be in operation in January?
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Darren is not the only one to have misunderstood the LEC, Truthman; you have also!
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Arnald has given a partial answer to Please don’t tinker.
I would only grudgingly support the current drugs strategy, were it successful, because of the problems it generates.
As Arnald pointed out it has spawned a huge world-wide criminal industry which will be difficult to get rid of even if the drugs strategy is changed. The mafia are still rampant in USA even though prohibition was repealed as long ago as 1933. It was repealed, by the way, because it became all too apparent that it did not cure the alcohol problem, and because of the terrible things it engendered. Ring any bells?
There are two types of drug users: those who might want to stop and those who don’t. How do you help the former if you make their activity illegal so that they have no interest in disclosing it?
Both types have to buy possibly degraded supplies which are a health risk, maybe fatal, at black market prices, so that many users have to resort to petty crime to fund their habit.
If Please don’t tinker genuinely wants to reduce the devastation caused by drugs he should not be supporting a strategy which is a waste of time and money, and actually exacerbates the problem.
See the report of the UK Drug Policy Commission:
http://www.ukdpc.org.uk/publications.shtml#Analysis_Drug_Policy
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@ Sam Maindonald:
It really, really worries me that as a deputy of the Home Department you have not even read your own literature. Do away with the ‘buzz words’ and whittle it down to a manageable amount of text for a forum such as this and what you’re left with is the formation of the LEC, which will oversee law enforcement agencies on the island, complete with new legislation to support it! The link is below.
On the other hand, if I have misinterpreted the text as Darren has, it would help if you explained what the facts really are. Or is that too much to ask from a public servant?!
http://www.gov.gg/ccm/home-department/future-of-law-enforcement.en
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I think the rationale for the merger is so that both the Police and Customs can combat proceeds of crime better (with the new legislation).
TruthMan – I agree with you (whatever next :) ).
David C – you miss the point. There wil always be drug users, as there will always be alcoholics. The point of Customs is to intercept and target drug trafficking – this by definition means they will look to combat syndicated operations.
The police, given their legislation and legal obligations target users within the Bailiwick; yes they might go for a local distributor, but it will be small fry.
Please Don’t Tinker – I appreciate your comments, however I do not concur in respect of financial investigation. Customs are far better trained and positioned to undertake complex financial investigation of crime. I am not suggesting financial investigation is taken away from the Police as they are good at fraud and theft, but this is bread and butter stuff.
It is the major players that need targeting.
I suspect there will be significant changes in the law, including border re-organisation involving cross over of duties between Police and Customs; I can just see Customs dealing with cars with no Tax Disc, or arresting people for drunk and disorderly.
I believe the laws for Policing and the Laws for Customs should never be merged as Police and Customs Officers are quite disparate in their approach to their training and their objectives.
It would be a tragedy for Guernsey if this occurs…
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David Cranch has written many letters, and all has that knowledge of which he possess,
However I would go further than say I support the present way the law is pursued.
All Drug dealers when Proven should receive as hard a sentence as a murderer. and why?
Because they cause a lingering death to those poor fools who believe drugs are good.
and the vendors of drugs live a life of comfort, whilst their fellow beings live a terrible life.
Only when Governments get real tough , will most people be satisfied.
‘
This namby pamby attitude is no good, a slap on the wrist is over in seconds. get real you law makers and do what you were elected to do. HOLD LAW AND ORDER; foreign trips does nothing to alleviate the crimes.
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There appears to be a few misconceptions posted here that need clarification.
Darren – Police and Customs are NOT being merged! ‘Removing the duplication of effort’ does not equate to Customs Officers arresting people for being drunk & disorderly etc, it merely means that where their mandate does cross over (for example drugs offences), then their responsibilities will be clearer in what investigations they will take the lead on.
Similarly where resources are duplicated – whether this be as a physical item of equipment or a capability in a certain area, then those skills and equipment will be shared for the greater good of Law Enforcement and not solely owned by one Service.
Truth Man – As I understand it (and perhaps this is what Sam Maindonald knows but not explained) the Law Enforcement Commission is NOT another States Department as such, but an ‘advisory panel’ which will act as a buffer between political “interference” and operational directives. You seem to infer that the States are going to be recruiting several people to sit in an office all day doing very little and getting paid vast amounts of money, but I don’t believe that is what they have in mind.
I would be surprised if any additional funding (if at all needed) would be separately requested, but in fact have to be paid for out of Home Department Annual General Revenue coffers – thus meaning that it may not cost any more to us at all!?
Only my view of course based on what I have read from available reports.
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Darren,
We are agreed, then, that there will always be drug users. So, if the point of Customs is to intercept and target, then they are pointless, just nibbling at the edge, pretending to be doing a job.
Eric,
Why do you enjoy the futility of endlessly punishing a few unfortunates who get caught, while the majority get away with it. Another pointless exercise.
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David Cranch;
I must beg of you, and to apologise for a badly worded postings.
My posting meant that the suppliers of drugs should be heavily punished; not the the users.
I knew a young pretty intelligent young girl just filled 18 years; depressed after being sexually abused by a relative. another relative in trying to console her gave her amphetamine; that was the start; she died a few months later by an overdose-
So it’s the dealers I want punished and harshly.
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Eric,
I understood you okay the first time.
I wonder if you understand that the current drugs policy means necessarily that their supply is in the hands of criminals whose only interest is the huge profits, often enhanced by adulteration of the drugs thereby increasing the health risks to the users.
Do you think that is a good idea?
Or do you think it would be a good idea to try to drive the dealers out of business? If they aren’t dealing then we don’t need to spend money pretending to catch them, or housing in our prison the small fry that are caught.
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@David Cranch!
Which ever way one looks at it, it’s still a crime against the weak; I say weak because they are not strong enough to resist the big temptation,
as many said, I only did it for fun to see what happened, the fun turned sour.
If the death penalty came back they the dealers should be in line for the ultimate punishment. they kill slowly, and at times in a disgusting manner.
What then are you views David, wait till you get the big fish?
The Military vowed to wipe out those poppy fields, but the population cried out: so to please and hope that the civilian would come to help they left the field intact.
Those who cried out are the suppliers of the means to buy the weapons that kill our troops. justice? where?
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Eric, I’ll just reply to the germane points.
Yes, the weak should not be forgotten. But they are ignored by the ‘war on drugs’. It leaves them to the mercy of the dealers. Another good reason to re-think our strategy.
No, it’s only the feeble publicity of those conducting the ‘war’ that gives the impression that the big fish will be caught. I think they will never do it. They seem perfectly happy to catch the occasional mule and bask in their own self-congratulatory publicity.
The death penalty is not an effective deterrent. And is out of the question because it is barbaric and irreversible. Too many innocent people are executed.
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