Local shops are not meeting the demand
Thursday 3rd September 2009, 2:30PM BST.
Co-op chief executive Jim Hopley with some of the names Leale’s Yard might tempt. (Montage by John O’Neill)
ISLANDERS shop online and off-island because local retailers do not meet all their needs, according to independent consultants.
And that is justification for the Leale’s Yard development, they said.
The Guernsey Press has obtained a copy of the report, which was commissioned by the Co-op as part of its planning application.
CACI Property Consulting produced a detailed review of Guernsey’s retail market and concluded that Leale’s Yard would help fill an ‘upper level’ area of the sector that was currently lacking.
It said there was ‘leakage’ of custom through internet, mail order and off-island shopping because some areas of the market were under-provided-for. It added that Leale’s Yard would not have a significant impact on Town.
It concluded: ‘The need for additional retail space in Guernsey can be addressed by the development at St Sampson. CACI still believes St Peter Port will remain as the dominant retail location.’
Co-op chief executive Jim Hopley said the society commissioned the report at the request of Environment but also to give itself a degree of comfort that the development was viable.
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It’s not just a question of meeting our needs, it’s the over-inflated prices charged. Many local retailers don’t seem to even try to compete price-wise with the UK.
The “shipping costs” excuse used by many doesn’t hold water. Shipping isn’t that expensive – for example I’ve send a 40″ widescreen TV to the UK for £20 and that’s as a private invididual. I’m sure commercial companies can negotiatate a better rate for bulk transportation.
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All of this has been said on this and the previous Editors Blog.
Why waste money on consultants when they can have it here from the horses’s mouth – and for free.
A Paul le P makes good points on prices and shipping.
Greed reigns!!
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Not only what PLP has mentioned above about prices Islanders are simply sick and tired of being ripped off on VAT when we are supposed to be exempt.
We get stung by the tax with a huge profit margin on top just for being Islanders. Once upon a time some had little choice but now shopping has opened out many more options. To save a grand and sometimes a lot more on a top end LCD is as easy as a few simple mouse clicks away.
All major manufacturers will pay for transportation costs if a default is evident within the warranty period so the shops fall down once again.
Guernsey and Jersey need to do their purchasing together if they still wish to play the economies of scale old chestnut. People are not stupid any more and will always price compare.
Shops that think they can still get away with ripping off their customers are starting to see their sales tailing off massively now because it is now a case of us having more sense than money nowadays.
All my major purchases are done online now. I do compare with local retailers, just out of curiosity, but places like Amazon normally end up seeing my money.
It is also the same with many minor bulk purchases like batteries now that they offer free shipping on many lines.
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paul le p
As usual you have not done your research.
try electricity prices amongst the dearest in europe, rents for commercial properties astronomical. Purchase prices of land, building costs, economies of scale, purchasing power, staff costs 33% higher than in the u.k. need I go on? and that’s before you even get to freight charges. meanwhile local folks are packing away their inflated saleries and pensions and want u.k. prices. get a grip!
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Apart from food and the odd item of clothing, I make all my purchases including white and brown goods using the Internet. I would really like to support local businesses but unfortunately there is such a poor level of customer service given by most local retailers that they give me no option. I do not mind paying a little extra to support locals but I will not pay the inflated prices many retailers charge. I have never yet had a bad experience using the Internet and I have always had 1st class customer service. Guernsey retailers it is your choice, good service takes a little effort but the rewards are your survival.
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I have read the CACI report with some alarm. It suggests that St. Sampson should have a retail trading centre as big as St. Peter Port! It makes silly comments like ‘the residents of the North of the island are not served by sufficient shops’ …
It thinks that Islanders will stop buying in the UK and abroad and on the internet, and start buying in Guernsey if there is a store here!
I don’t believe CACI asked a single local resident about their buying habits or intentions.
When you get stores like Next and M&S blatantly leaving the VAT on their prices, then Islanders are bound to buy elsewhere and claim the VAT back on importation.
Existing UK chain stores have proven that they can justify stocking only a limited range of products and sizes. If Islanders want choice it is mail order, internet or a visit to the UK.
It was never intended that there should be so much retail space in the Leale’s Yard development and I am saddened that Environment might have given a letter of comfort to the developer. Of course the developer, which is not the Coop, has chosen to exploit the space to its maximum and probably now feels unwilling to cut back – even though it is quite clear that the retail space cannot be filled without ‘stealing’ traders from St. Peter Port – if then. We might then end up with two shopping centres only half full!
Environment has to bite the bullet and tell the developer to cut back the retail space and to replace it with social amenities like a Cinema, Night Club, Conference centre, public library, social centre (like the Russells), etc..
There is not enough imagination in the plan, just too much money making – not Cooperative’s ‘principles’ at all.
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Exactly – it’s not that we can’t find what we want/need, it’s just that it’s often far better value from the internet, particularly for things like electronics… there are some retailers in town whose practices are so bizarre, I’m surprised they’re still open.
And the argument used in this article is self-nullifying and ridiculous. According to the article, the under provision for consumers’ needs is the justfication for Leale’s Yard, but it then says that it won’t have an impact on the main retail area which will remain the town… so the justification for Leale’s Yard as stated here is null!
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Totally agree Paul Le P. I have just purchased a 42″ TV from UK. Net of vat it was £300 cheaper than I could buy locally from the Co-op and £200 cheaper than two other local stores and we are supposed to be VAT free! It arrived within 72 hours – no charge for postage! Whilst I always try to buy locally I refuse to be ripped off!
Unfortunately some local stores have taken the view over the years that Guernsey customers had no other choice of where to buy, and have continued to charge max prices. I don’t believe that offering more choice is going to bring in a huge amount of additional customers, particularly with the recent Jersey Post iniative of shipping from stores that don’t usually supply Guernsey. What will bring in customers is a sharpening of the pencil on pricing!
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@Roy Bisson
To be honest I would rather listen to CACI’s “silly comments” than your biased opinion based on comments made to you in the pub/shop etc. CACI have been providing retail information successfully for over 20 years.
Many people say ‘the rents are too high etc’, well maybe a little competition on retail space could rectify that.
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On top of this, if a TV is delivered from the UK, its delivered when suitable for ME, not for the store. Whenever I buy something in Guernsey, it is delivered between 10-4 when I am at work and so have to come home and the shop owner does not care how much of a problem this causes for me.
Since I stopped buying in Guernsey, I can have DHL/IPS deliver when I choose, so until the shop holders on this island learn to serve the customer and not themselves, I hope they continue to lose money.
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Here here Dean,
What are Roy Bisson’s credentials? He appears to be speaking on behalf of a cosy Town cartel that cannot compete with the Internet retailers and so is now doing its best to stifle any home grown competition before it can even get off the ground. As a self-styled consumer champion Roy is not doing island consumers a great service by taking his Town protectionist stance.
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I have read all of the comments made about the Leale’s Yard development and the fears of the town traders. However, there is always room for compromise and, yes, competition, which is sadly lacking in this Island. Why can’t the shops based at the Leale’s Yard development be carefully selected to compliment the ones in town? For example, I’m sure we could do with, in particular, clothing stores for children and young teenagers who are extremely badly catered for in Guernsey, and have been for years. When my son was growing up I almost always had to buy his clothes off Island as there was very little choice locally. I’m sure there are all manner of shops that we currently don’t have in town that could be sited at St Sampsons. This area, which looks shabby and run down at present due to the multitude of charity shops, desperately needs this development.
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Well well Dean and Martino, have you read the CACI Report? Obviously not.
Dean, I have been shopping in Guernsey for over 50 years and I have owned/run 2 successful shops for periods in that time. For the rest I have been involved in marketing and publicity, very often for retailers, both in Town and out. So I do have some understanding.
Martino, when I was on the IDC and later the Environment Board I pressed very hard for a comprehensive development for Leale’s Yard that would offer a lot more than a “supermarket in a sea of tarmac.” As a result the IDC developed the Planning Brief with lots of public consultation. I still believe that the development can make a massive difference and improvement by providing more homes and more shop space. But I agree with many other experienced retailers that the developer has gone too far. A better balance is required with less retail and more public amenity.
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Not sure if the following helps your debate but here is the Christmas Retail Spend Survey we have conducted for the past 3 years. Focusses primarily on off island spend (not limited to just the Internet) in the run up to Christmas.
Opens immediately as a PDF: http://www.ifcfeed.com/documents/Christmas%20Retail%20Spend%20Survey.pdf
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Rebecca, please don’t knock the charity shops, they are one of the few local retailers that give us a good deal as well as helping others.
Kevin – evidently I’ve upset you at some point, strange as we’ve probably never met. Back to the point at hand though. I have done my research as a consumer and every time I find prices in the UK far cheaper than Guernsey, sometimes by hundreds of pounds. Reading these comments I’m evidently not the only one. In fact, the difference is so high at times I’ve wondered why local retailers don’t buy goods from UK retailers, ship them over here and put them on sale at a slightly inflated price! OK there’s probably some legal reason why that’s not possible but you get the point.
The crux of the matter however is this: it’s not for the consumer to justify local retailer’s high prices, it’s for the retailers to attract customers with competitive prices or at least provide a service to convince the punter to shop there rather than the Internet. Local punters are not mugs anymore and we won’t be ripped off.
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In response to Roy, this is what you said in your original posting:-
“Environment has to bite the bullet and tell the developer to cut back the retail space and to replace it with social amenities like a Cinema, Night Club, Conference centre, public library, social centre (like the Russells), etc..”
If indeed the Environment Department does go back on its word and ends up denying the Co-op the mix of development currently being proposed, will you, Roy, be prepared to build a business consortium to develop your cinema, night club, library and social centre?
And while you’re about it will you get your consortium, Utopia Inc., to throw in a public swimming pool, an indoor BMX centre and an ice skating rink for good measure? All very ‘desirable’ but a commercially viable prospect for any serious investor?
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It looks as if we can now shop more easily from the UK now. I saw that Jersey Post are now providing a service to deliver goods from the UK to the Channel Islands. They have a website ship2me.co.uk
They will even deliver IKEA stuff.
I used to use a similar service to order goods from Florida to Nassau, which also have very few choice of shops, and I’ve missed the service here.
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@Roy Bisson
I have not seen the report but would be very interested to read it.
The point I am making is that I am more inclined to go with CACI’s findings than your anecdotal ramblings.
I work on the analytical side of market penetration dealing with and creating similar reports, so I too “have some understanding”.
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Paul le p.
as usual you have ignored the facts and replied with rhetoric. no one is asking the comsumer to justify anything the fact is that there are very valid reasons why prices are higher in guernsey than the u.k. all of these you ignore in the name of consumerism. The reason wages e.t.c. are higher in guernsey is because the cost of living is higher it is not rocket science. Please remember we are all consumers even me! might I suggest that you compare like with like as I know that Guernsey prices stack up well against the Isle of Man and Jersey. It’s called economies of scale you may have heard of it. Ask yourself this question why are all of these retailers from the u.k. not breaking our doors down to come and do business here.?
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I’m disabled. I have a little money to spend each week and would like to support local businesses, but if I was unable to buy online I would be very badly off.
Locally I buy clothes at charity shops, otherwise I buy almost everything online, including foodstuffs like herbs and spices, unless it’s too heavy or perishable to make it worthwhile. On top of the high cost of gas and electricity it’s the only way I can make my money last without getting into debt.
Good food costs a fortune over here, and to top it all the quality of things like fresh fruit and veg is often very low. I can only imagine that the retailers buy the lowest grade items because of the amount of tasteless, stale and visibly rotting things on sale in certain places. Sadly, I can’t get out to the hedge veg stalls anymore, and to buy really good fruit and veg costs a scandalous amount.
I can’t remember the last time I bought anything in Town. It will take more than a few poorly-paid clowns and musicians to induce me to shop there again. Guernsey prices are for the rich.
Leale’s yard? I’ll still support the Co-op food store, but unless the non-food prices compare with what I can buy online I won’t be shopping there.
Me? I’m just another old Guern who’s getting increasingly pessimistic about the way our island’s going. So many ugly buildings creeping over the landscape, roads full of cars. Materialism put above all else.
Soon there’ll be nothing left that’s special about our island. Looking at the plans for Leale’s Yard, I can’t see it enhancing the area – the soul of St Sampson’s harbour was lost a long time back.
Well, I’ve not posted a comment before and I won’t be doing it again so I’ll have my say before I go. Money rules, the States are corrupt (and believe we’re dumb enough to believe them). I haven’t voted in decades because nothing ever changes except for the worst. And this has been said so many times before because it’s true. Our island is very, very sick, and most people are turning a blind eye.
And no one cares, so what I say won’t change a thing. I won’t come back to this site again – the news is just too depressing. A few good people still out there having their say and trying to stand up for what’s right, and people with money and no shred of conscience just laughing at us Guerns over their dinner parties and doing what they were going to do in the first place to steal money from us. It was ever so.
Yes, they laugh at us. They think we’re little more than dumb cattle. But I wonder if they have any idea just what we think of them?
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With the rent as high as it is in town, how can we expect prices to compete with internet retailers or high street shops elsewhere.
Personally 90% of my products are bought online.
Mrs “The Man” flys to Jersey and Southampton to do her Christmas Shopping for the extra choice and I sit at home clicking my mouse.
A simple solution would be for the greedy landlords to reduce their rent, then maybe town shops will start filling up again, choice will increase and shops can price more competitively and increase their stock instead of all their working capital being tied up in cash needed for rent or massive deposits.
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As a consumer, surely more competition is a good thing?
If someone thinks they can open a shop in St Sampson which can compete successfully with those in St Peter Port then I wish them good luck.
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Too little choice too much cost. Its unfortunate Leale`s yard was conceived before the crunch but with such large high street rents, higher wage costs and full car parks are not the Co-op and their team making a positive move forward, increasing competition and bringing purchasing back to Guernsey. Good on you for making such a bold investment in such a difficult economic climate. Lets reduce Amazons grip on the retail sector, they are not moving retail from town they are giving the consumer choices they currently do not have.
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It’s simple consumer economics Kevin, not rhetoric. I’m a consumer, I’ll shop where I get best value – as do many others on this thread it seems.
Since you’re adament to talk about facts, here’s one for you: consumers seek value for money. Prices online are far cheaper than locally, so if the local retailers cannot compete on the price level they need to provide something that pursuades the local consumer to shop there and not online. The way I see it, due to the economic factors taht prevent financial competition, the only level at which they can compete is personal customer service. If a local retailer can provide top notch customer service, including expert knowledge of the product and the feeling that they actually value your custom, perhaps more people will be persuaded to pay extra.
You accuse me of using rhetoric. What about the rhetoric used by island retailers trying to play on islander’s patriotism to gain customers. Well, sorry Kevin but some of us need a little more than that….
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PS Kevin : “Ask yourself this question why are all of these retailers from the u.k. not breaking our doors down to come and do business here.?”
Perhaps it’s because many of them already get our business online? They don’t need to set up shop here to get our custom.
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paul le p
glad I’ve found yet another subject upon which you are an expert.
as usual you miss the point all I’m saying is compare like with like you haven’t compared Guernsey prices with other islands prices just with the u.k. Of course we can all shop anywhere we like I don’t have a problem with that.I even use the net sometimes. you seem a reasonably bright person and I think you know full well why traders from the u.k. will not set up here and it is due to the fact that we are too small. you just need to calm down a bit mate.
p.s. whatever job you do paul I wonder how the cost of comsuming whatever you provide,supply or produce compares to the same in the u.k. Care to share that with us?
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Kevin – you evidently work in retail – perhaps if your sales manner was as refined as your sarcasm you might be making greater profit! :-)
Since you ask I work in an internal IT department so it’s impossible to put a figure on what I produce as it’s an internal service – unless you count my salary as a cost….however I’m not about to disclose that here!
I’m not quite sure why you think I’m not calm, I’m perfectly calm – but thanks for asking. You still seem to be missing my point though – from a consumer perspective there needs to be value. Comparing local outlets with other islands is a pointless exercise for the consumer who lives here – so what if prices here match Jersey or the Isle of Man – we don’t live there, we live here.
Fair enough I accept retailers cannot compete financially with the major UK outlets however in that case they need to compete by providing a value-added service, or simply accept that for certain consumers price is everything.
The last couple of times I looked locally for electrical goods the prices were far higher than the UK, so I was looking for some other reason to pay the extra locally – such as expert service, the feeling that the retailer actually wanted my business, or something else. Neither retailer I went to provided me with a good enough reason to pay the extra so I purchased online. Reading the comments here it sounds like I’m not alone in making this decision.
Irrespective of the above, personally I think the retail sector in Guernsey for certain items like consumer electronics is finished – it’s just a matter of time. Retail outlets for things like clothes will probably remain, as people like to try things on before parting with their cash.
Although high rents in town and other factors are partially to blame; the real reason is that times have changed worldwide. The Internet has created a global economy meaning that large retailers such as Amazon can sell goods with far smaller overheads to places like Guernsey. Add the fact that the kind of people who buy these goods are generally highly computer literate and ofen know more than the retail salesman and you’ve sounded the death knell for local retail in these areas.
Although factors like service are important, retail consumerism is primarily about money – people will generally purchase at the best price. It may well be that some retailers will survive however I doubt in 10 years time we’ll see many local retailers of goods such as consumer electronics.
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Paul Le P
Your 4.40pm comments are absolutely spot on. Retail as we know it is finished, particularly for items such as books, DVDs, consumer electronics, cameras, luggage etc, which are not subject to sizing or other personalised factors. I cannot see many factors able to influence this trend. Shops selling unique products or clothing have a chance to survive as customers are more likely to buy from a personal visit to the shop.
Take a look at Oxford Street and Regent Street in London. Huge clothing stores with massive stocks on display. These stocks are becoming unnecessary. Customers now go into those shops, try on an item of clothing to check the size and then order that same size from the retailers website at a cheaper cost and with next day delivery. The store becomes a shop front for the website and so much less retail space will be needed. Its a trend which is unlikely to change.
What has not changed is the attitude of Guernsey retailers to their customers. There is a lack of willingness by many to accept the reality of the internet. When I can buy a particular DVD player from an online retailer for cheaper than a local retailer can buy it wholesale from his supplier, then its obvious that the game is up for the local retailer, except in rare cases where the local resident is happy to pay the higher price locally.
The outlook for retail in every town centre, not just in Guernsey, is bleak. Its little different from the corner shop having to compete with the supermarket. The corner shop just cannot compete on price and the buyer will react accordingly.
I dread to think what our High Street will look like in just 5 years time. But I don’t think there is much we can do about it. We cannot force customers to change their buying habits and desires. Its nothing other than basic economics.
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paul le p
glad to know you are shielded from the harsh realities of consumerism. i thought so(let’s hope for your sake that one day you don’t have to find out you’re not) i didn’t ask for your salary ( you do have a habit of going off on tangent) obviously I have to point out to you that the cost of any internal service is passed on to consumers of whatever your company offers in goods or services. i asked you to compare your costs which you don’t have a clue how to do. if you can’t compare whether you offer value for money don’t ask anyone else to. By the way i am at the very top of retailing and doing very well.
with respect you’ve won my arguement for me and I quote you “comparing guernsey prices with other islands is a pointless ecxercise we live here not there” you may need reminding then mate you don’t live in the u.k you live here (I think) so why compare u.k. prices to here. unfortunately I have to agree with some of what you say about local retailers. but I still can’t understand your problem.
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paul le p
p.s.
I’m going to ship in some cheaper i.t. guys from the u.k. and while i’m at it i’ll get some cheap plumbers,builders,sparkeys,chippies, decorators,bankers,dentists, travel agents e.t.c.
enough said?
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Kevin – first and foremost no need to patronise me – rest assured I am very aware that I am not shielded from the harsh realities of consumerism. The organisation I work for has competition from other service providers around the world. If they don’t provide a good service at good value, they will go out of business as surely as the local TV shop, I will lose my job and probably have to leave the island. I am well aware that, should my employer find a better and more cost-effective way of running their IT systems then I’m also out of a job.
Finally, you suggest I have a problem when perhaps you should ask yourself that question? It seems to me that you have a problem with anyone who questions your vast experience or opinion. I accept you know more about retail than I do however whilst accusing others of ranting you then patronise anyone who questions you – somewhat hypocritical don’t you think?
This arrogant attitude reaches it’s peak with the claim that you are at the “very top” of retail – slight exaggeration perhaps? Forgive me but if you really were at the “very top” of retailing, wouldn’t you be managing director of Amazon or a similar global mega-retailer and not running a business in Guernsey?
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PS Kevin – “I’m going to ship in some cheaper i.t. guys from the u.k. and while i’m at it i’ll get some cheap plumbers, builders, sparkeys, chippies, decorators, bankers, dentists, travel agents e.t.c.”
Isn’t that already being done? Of course, unless you can get them a licence you’ll have to also provide them with open market accomodation which in the case of bankers, dentists and travel agents – even I.T. people perhaps ;-) – will likely bring their total cost above that of the locals.
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paul le p
firstly i don’t wish to leave guernsey so yes i am at the top of retail locally but I’ve worked very, very hard to get there. as for the rest of your post once again you try to make things personal and fail to answer any questions posed. i asked a few simple questions and you can’t answer them which undermines all of your arguements. Just stick to questions posed and you would get more respect from me. There is a lesson here though and that is to check your facts before putting ill thought out posts together. one last question though what problem were you suggesting I thought you had? I don’t appear to have mentioned that you have a problem in my post. By the way David’s post was much better thought out and argued than any of yours on retailing (except when he says you are spot on but nobody is perfect) and I haven’t been critical of his post at all. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject of retailing. Remember you win some,you lose some and you’ll probably nail me when I comment on i.t. issues.
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“Remember you win some,you lose some” – It’s taken about a dozen posts Kevin but I finally think we agree on something! :-)
Much is based on the perspective – I approached the debate as a consumer after the cheapest price; you as a retailer looking for the best returns from your business. No wonder we squabbled!
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