Housing minister provokes green belt row over vinery
Thursday 10th September 2009, 2:30PM BST.
HOUSING minister Dave Jones is facing fierce criticism after not getting permission from Environment to turn a field into a contractor’s yard.
The planning critic has retrospectively applied to convert the field at La Marette Road in St Sampson’s, which has sparked angry reactions from neighbours.
Brian Queru contacted the Guernsey Press to complain that Deputy Jones was damaging the area. ‘He has been a naughty boy as he has done this on green belt land and has taken a vinery site down to boot,’ he said.
When asked to comment, Deputy Jones said he was too busy. However, he did say he was surprised because he was within his rights.
Mr Queru, whose mother lives next to the area, which is also used by a skip company, said residents were especially irritated because the plot was accessed via a Ruette Tranquille.
‘We are going to put up a huge block if he comes near getting permission because why should this sort of person get permission when an ordinary resident would not?’ he said.
‘It is underhanded because this is an old vinery site and you are not allowed to treat it this way.’
The Heritage Group broker said it was dangerous.
‘It is a fire hazard of a high degree, too. It is a health risk and I know because I am in the insurance business.
‘And people are storing oil up there and it is a water catchment area, so I am going to be speaking to Guernsey Water about that.’
Large vehicles should not be used so much in Ruette Tranquille lanes, he said, especially as it was a dangerous corner already.
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Typical of reaction of a States member. No checking the rules, just assumes they don’t apply to him.
Make him restore the site to the way it was before he demolished the greenhouse.
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Shall we have a poll on whether or not he gets permission granted?
I think he will, although if the story is right it is totally wrong that he should do in my opinion.
Anyone who applies retrospectively has surely broken the law by not having permission prior to the change of use occurring?
Any planning experts out there who could explain better?
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Anything to say for yourself Dave?
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One rule for one normal Guernsey ways!!
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Most unlike Dave Jones to be so reticent. Naughty naughty.
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They destroy their own country and now try to destroy ours.
‘And don’t come with your whining about having been here for years and having married a Guernsey girl, so what It doesn’t make you a Guernsey man and it’s Guernsey we are talking about.
You are always saying you will uphold the rights of the laws of Guernsey, Its only when it suits?
The sooner a new election comes the better, you’ll join the rest and have your butts kicked out, and it won’t be too soon.
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Unbeleivable….
Yet if I were to change my hardwood windows for uPvc, saving me about £300 a year in oil and reducing my carbon footprint, Environment would be down on me like a tonne of bricks.
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So Dozy Dave rides again.
What amazes me is that he hasn’t resigned. Which leaves the question open as to whether anyone has asked him to resign – does the illustrious Chief Minister have anything to say in this regard?
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Hi Phil, I’m a planner originally from Guernsey but now living in the UK. I’m not too sure what the development plan for Guernsey says, but who you are does not effect whether or not you get planning permission – it all depends on if the plan says you can do something. Sadly there’s no penalty for retrospective applications (which is something I don’t necessarily agree with), but Mr Jones has not acted outside planning law.
Having said that, if the development plan says you can’t use a parcel of land in a particular way, or can’t build something and then someone does, that development is open to enforcement action. If what he has done is contrary to the policies of the local plan, he may have to restore the land to its former glory at his own expense.
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Steevo.
You said; “…who you are does not effect whether or not you get planning permission – it all depends on if the plan says you can do something”.
Would you know if the planning stage takes any account of who owns the land? i.e. for example did a superior dictate to you on any particular properties.
The reason I ask is that I have heard stories (and they are only stories but if anyone can corroborate them please do) that permission to build on particular plots were repeatedly refused untill a builder, civil servant, freemason, or politician bought the property.
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Dangerous Dave isn’t usually too busy to comment, he usually has an opinion on everything.
I have had enough of these two faced politicians.
Out, out, out I say, and good riddance to the lot of them.
And I agree with Eric, he may have married a local, but, he is not, and never will be a Guernseyman
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No, it shouldn’t take into account who owns what. Land designations are based on numerous factors e.g. an identified need for a particular use. If a member of the public feels planning permission has been granted for something that is contrary to the development plan, that’s what judicial reviews are for – an ombudsman would identify if any maladministration has occured and decide on any further action.
I’ve heard those stories too, Steven, but I’ve not seen any evidence of it in my experience. Indeed, you may want to Google Boris Johnson and his shed, which he erected recently without permission and was forced to remove. That suggests that even the high level politicians aren’t immune from enforcement action (but I can’t speak for every council in the land!)
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Has Dep DJ not seen this article, I always thought him and BJ were quite similar.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/06/boris-johnson-shed-gaffe
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Well this is Guernsey. Run buy Guernsey people for the Guernsey people! asking outsiders how to run Guernsey ? do the sums Kick them out, people like you and me have to work, but we pay them to ask someone else how to do the work we pay them to do,! can we do that No. So its about time guernsey people did something about it, do what the french do, ( like the fire man did!in Guernsey ? ) hold Guernsey to ranson Say no down tools the power of people is far greater then the power of the so called states people, show them that there lies Dont count for anything anymore or there own self Gain. Les
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..so that’s ‘don’t do as I do, do as I tell you…’ then, Dave.
Hypocrisy, taking care of no 1 and filling your own pockets…typical Guernsey politician, really.
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I wonder what Dep Jones thinks about the Alderney smoking thing. I would have thought it was a prime canvas for his brightly coloured opinions on the encroachment of intelligence.
Maybe it’s an operation to secretly dismantle all those noisy motor bikes.
Let’s not shoot him until we find out.
It could be a secret military installation, General Perrot’s Bond Villain Hideout. Only a combination of cosseted privilege and hard nosed belligerence will save Les Iles Normandes from the Communist Front Line that is the UK.
I suggest we all go down there and sign up.
Children as young as twelve were overheard to be thinking about it whilst a surfer fed them spice through a dirty syringe. An immigrant surfer. On benefits.
Ok Guernsey Press, this can be Monday’s headline – all in black please like the Queen mum was still alive and then suddenly all dead again.
“A single-parent, black lesbian immigrant on benefits was surfing up some mainlined spice to children as young as twelve in A&E whilst illegally working on a green belt military installation at the orders of a highly secretive cabal of senior politicians and pompous ex lawyers. Exclusive interview with a UFO expert pages 4, 5, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14 and expert editorial comment on pages 448 “Why HSSD are Death-Panels for OAPs – Is it time for the army to get them good n proper – are you listening brave Perrot’s Protectors?”"
Ooh that should consolidate your market share.
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JL Seagull
Thats the Post of the year….. brilliant!
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First of all I was on holiday when this so called story broke, I only returned yesterday, secondly I have not demolished any green houses on this site as there were no green houses on it when I bought the site, the site is zoned as agricultural NOT green belt as has been stated. The equipment on the site is classed as agricultural equipment and I have not broken any planning laws, as I am entitled just like everyone else to apply for change of use of a particular site. Ten feet away from this site is a well established skip business and digger business which has operated from this site for years and opposite the site approx 20 feet away is a large warehouse that operates a Marquee business from this industrial site built only a few years. To read some of the puerile rubbish on this blog you would think that as a Deputy I suddenly loose all rights to do anything, there are several retrospective applications in the environment list every year, mine is just one of them.
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Oh come on now folks.
It’s the Guernsey way, that’s all.
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As much as I enjoy disagreeing with Dave Jones on various things, the Press must stop this practice of publishing stories based on disgruntled individuals.
If what Dept Jones says is true then the allegations must be offensive. Couldn’t the Press at least make a cursory investigation into the status of the land?
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I tend to agree with you Arnald. And as Dave says, loads of islanders make retrospectives so why shouldn’t he? E.G. the Victor Hugo Boulangerie guy is making a retrospective application for his lovely sign above his establishment on the Bridge and I fully support him on that one.
As regards the antics of our politicians, I’m much more concerned about the clear conflict of interests (see ‘Town role…’ thread) that is compromising another of our deputies. The Press has done a good job in highlighting that particular story.
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Interesting, I see there’s no equally impassioned response to the comments from the Heritage Group broker who said this site was a dangerous, fire hazard health risk because it’s got oil stored in a water catchment area, or to the concerns that the nearby Ruette Tranquille’s designation as such is being totally ignored by the large vehicles that constantly fly up and down there.
MR Jones, two wrongs do NOT make you right, and your ‘oh well, OTHER people are doing it too’ comments about other companies who are similarly abusing the site and individuals who flout the Planning Laws make you a follower, not a leader, which is the exact opposite of what a politician should be.
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This is really a bit of a “non-story”. The press just stirring it up a bit, and unfortunately getting the result they wanted. Debate and discussion is healthy but not over “non-events”.
It’s good to see Dave Jones come on here and put his side of the story, it’s a shame for him that a tiny percent of those who read the Press will get to see his response on here.
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To Deputy Jones
Do you not think as an elected member of the States, and as Housing Minister, that perhaps you should have applied for permission before changing the use? I think the public tend to view retrospective applications negatively, and therefore surely it would be sensible for our politicians to try and do something that is looked on in a positive light?
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Scarlett
The oil you refer to is in a properly constructed double skinned purpose built tank, exactly the same as thousands supplied by the oil companies for central heating and fuel tanks across the island. I also haven’t flouted any planning laws. Large vehicles have been using that lane for as long as anyone can remember.
There has been a skip business that has operated from this site for over 30 years this skip business nor its trucks or its operation has anything to do with me or my family whatsoever and that yard has been there long before the Ruette Tranquille was designated and even before some of the houses were built in the area.I own a small carpenters workshop and another shed alongside this strip of land in question from which the builder I bought it from opereated his building business for years.
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Greg I think that’s a fair question to ask and a good point.
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Mr Jones, as a planner I can confirm you haven’t actually broken any rules by applying retrospectively – a great deal of applications at my authority are retrospective – and I can empathise with your frustration that the Press has cast you in a bad light by not fully researching their story, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that you are a public figure who is supposed to set a good example. Doing something like allegedly changing the use of a parcel of land without consent isn’t a particularly respectable thing to do and by the tone of your comments you don’t appear to see that’s why people have kicked up a fuss. You wouldn’t be on here defending yourself if you’d applied in the first place and you’d be saving yourself a lot of anxiety.
If everyone’s so worried and wants clarity, why doesn’t someone write into the Environment Department and ask the enforcement officer to investigate whether or not there’s been a breach of planning law? Mr Jones will then be forced to put in an application and its merits will be judged against the local plan.
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I`m with D Jones on this one and pleased he has cleared it up. I think some on here are just using this as an excuse to have a go at him because of who he is rather than what he`s done.
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Rather strange is all this; I suppose it’s because we are Guernsey and have never ever really understood the English language.
Well it seems like that, and why?
Well when first the story broke about this deputy, he said he was too busy to answer.
Now he answers having gathered a bit of courage, and says he was on Holiday.
So you can surely see the situation we dumb Guernsey people are.. well at least they the other lot think like that.
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Greg it is a fair question and I am happy to answer it, The whole area where my site is situated has been used to operate commercial businesses for years, the site opposite was once a large vinery and permission was sought for change of use and the whole site was cleared and a large block warehouse was built in its place. I bought the site I own now from a chap who operated it as a builders yard so I was not aware that I was potentially breaking any laws or that I needed any change of use and the only change that has been made as far as my area is concerned is the parking of agricultural equipment on the site, there is no operational activity taking place unlike next door which is a few feet away, where a skip operation has been running for decades. The environment department contacted me and I subsequently put in the application which I will openly admit is retrospective. It is no more complicated than that, I seem to be being blamed for all the activity of a skip company and its trucks who use the lane, which has nothing to do with me or my family.
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As usual the Press on it’s on going witch-hunt have distorted the facts to feed all the small minded people that would shudder if they ever had to debate with this hard working Deputy face to face.
What on earth has where somebody was born got to do with anything?
Without the input of many people born outside of Guernsey the Island would be a much poorer place.
Many people that have had strong opinions get the usual retort there is a boat leaving in the morning.
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Correction Eric.
I never said I was to busy, that’s what the press said. I was on holiday in France and I took a call from a press reporter who asked me about a retrospective application and that the press had had an e-mail from one of the neighbours of the site in question, I responded by saying that it was a perfectly legitimate application and I had nothing further to add. Further I don’t think my courage has ever been in question.
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Eric your comments are bordering on offensive. Can you tell me how many generations one must go back to fall under your idea of “local”. Can you confirm that all sides of your family go back to 6,000 BC when Neolithic farmers settled on the island, or have you decided on a different cut off date that suits you for when no more residents were allowed to call themselves “local”.
Utter rubbish from a narrow minded individual with a bit of a God complex. Perhaps you need reminding that we are all here for an incredibly short period of time and to think of yourself as having more rights than another is a very blinkered view of life.
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Captain
I’ll think you’ll find Eric only needs the slightest bit of ammunition to start spouting his Xenophobic nonsense. Thankfully these particular Guerns are becoming more and more of a minority because frankly he’s embarrasing.
If what DDJ says is true then he has nothing to be held accountable for, yet Eric is seemingly hanging on the presses every word, quite contrary to the Shakespeare reading superior intellect he would have us all beleive he is.
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Capt Oveur:
If there is any case for offense it’s the way the English people try to make out that they rule the roost.
Firstly what rights has The Anglo-Saxons to take over Britain; since you wish to go back to 6000BC I only go back about 1000 years:
What rights have the now known English to subject Guernsey to their way of thinking.
We are supposed to be a Dependency, not a colony.
As for a blinkered way of life, that made me smile. when I hear all bull…. that comes from the other side of the Channel
As for the assurance of my Family, I refer to the fact that it was part of Normandie, Not france. and it was Normandie that gave you what you deserved a right old pasting in 1066.
But the English has always been sour about the French, because you couldn’t cower them down as you did elsewhere in the world.
You call Cornwall a county; yet you never beat them in fair fight,
Then a lot of Brits the true owners of Britain had had enough of your lot, and settled in Brittany after the Brits, Or Bretagne in French.
As for your nasty talk od God Complex, Yes I do believe in God, and I know that one day you who malign His name will surely get your full deserts, and they won’t be sweets.
As for being on this earth for a short period is quite true; However Guernsey people never tried to enslave or make slaves of others, or to take others livelihooid, through vicious domineering ways
‘
If any one should ‘pass’ their tongue it’s the likes of you
‘Capt indeed, what of The Heads?
You people from across the Channel have big ideas but little thoughts forr others.
I have many friends in England, but they are true people, not like you with tongue of poison
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I don’t think we have more rights than others we KNOW we have, We are not of your breed, you just took over.
‘As for being blinkered, I’m afraid it’s you who is blinkered.
You cannot see what you have done in the past, your colonies, the absolute disgraceful way you treated the Irish , the Scots, the welsh, and it has no ending;
‘
And you say Blinkered.., think on CAPT.
And as to a ‘God Complex; well I’m proud of that, at least our anthem tells of our Island, not asking to bless one person…
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Eric you haven’t answered my question about whether all sides of your family go back to the time that Guernsey was first inhabited, because only then by your own “rules” can you yourself be a true “local”.
As for being judged by your God, hopefully I can argue my case that at least while I was here I was tolerant of all walks of life, attempted mediation where I could and didn’t pass judgement on others, unlike so many.
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I don’t have to answer any questions you may put forward; are trying to be smart? I think you know I speak as an Islander and you try to squirm out of my words to you.
‘
This I will say. from around the 9th century Normandie became such. my family comes from Normandie and as the Islands were part of Normandie; I need no other proof:
But since you are on that subject where do you lot get the Idea that you are Brits? you’re Anglo-Saxons Coming from that part of Denmark closest to Saxony in northern Germany;
So you have to also prove your rights to a land you stole. CAPT.
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Eric you are a very angry man, your comments remind me of Alf Garnett.
But congratulations, you can tell everyone that you alone are a true Guern
You have a massive sense of injustice towards an injustice that hasnt occurred, your comments on this thread have jumped from spiteful to, well, crazy.
And without getting too embroiled in an anglo french row, how many Brits died on June 6 1944, yes there was a bigger picture at stake, but I beleive one of the purposes was to begin the liberation of France, so surely the english (well the Brits, I like to call them) are not all bad??
Its about time we all started accepting each other because like it or lump it we are all on this rock together (and when I say rock, I mean planet, not a small piece of land in the english channel), but as long as there are people like you around it will never happen.
Come on Alf Garnet, cheer up.
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A bit of a non-story to begin with (yet again) since this matter will all turn on the facts anyway, once they become available.
But now the thread seems to have bizarrely turned into a debate about Eric’s (or everyone’s) genealogy and hence has become even more of an irrelevance. Well irrelevant to the article which triggered it anyway.
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Fin
I agree with you,
so why does those who work up a story think we the Islanders should swallow all the ‘bumf’ that they put up,
At least as an Islander I speak for that which is ours.
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‘There has been a skip business that has operated from this site for over 30 years this skip business nor its trucks or its operation has anything to do with me or my family whatsoever and that yard has been there long before the Ruette Tranquille was designated and even before some of the houses were built in the area..’
….so, that’s back to the ol’ ‘oh well, OTHER people are doing it too’ excuses of earlier, then, Dave.
If you require absolution, or the perceived ‘right’ to do what you like, when you like, I suggest you avoid this forum, and perhaps, politics.
No amount of spin-doctored baby kissing – or the kissing of anything else – is getting you out of this one.
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I don’t normally feed the trolls but…..
Eric, you are hilarious. You seem to know a lot about history, so presumably you know that politically, the link between the Channel Islands and “Normandie” was severed in 1204 when France re-took the mainland Duchy of Normandy.
Therefore, unless you can prove that your entire family have lived here since before 1204, by your own criteria you are not a Guernseyman, you are actually an immigrant from France.
On the other hand, if your entire family HAVE lived here since 1204 that would probably explain a thing or two as well….
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Well it had to come; from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Ah well Mac Tavish, it’s nice in a ridiculous world to have a little fun.
I suppose the next question would be, were my ancestors from Rome.
However what I find strange in a way. is the fact I must touch some nerves somewhere, because going through this blog I see I and I alone has been set up to ridicule, It doesn’t bother me, but it proves many points.,
As for xenophobic nonsense.. think about what YOU HAVE SAID—
now sift in, and think about how could I possibly XENOPHOBIC when all I ask is that our Island is respected, and not dragged through the mire by many who delight in adding there idea of spices to the witches cauldron.
I will forever say that we should only and always only have Guernsey people to rule over us. that is except for the Bailiff who is appointed by the monarch,
The rest should toe the line Guernsey fashion or leave.
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Scarlett
What are you talking about? The photograph in the press was of Lorries from a business and a site that I have no involvement in whatsoever which has been there for decades. I am also not in anything I need to get out of, to use your generalisation; I have made a perfectly legitimate application to the environment department for change of use of part of a site. I have not used any excuses at all, I have just exercised a legitimate right available to everyone else in Guernsey. This will be my final comment on the matter, the press has achieved its goal with its non story of bringing me under further public attack, so mission accomplished.
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“I will forever say that we should only and always only have Guernsey people to rule over us”
Then what is the definition of a Guernsey person? This is the whole point we are trying to get at.
You are saying that Dave Jones should not be a deputy because he is not a Guernsey person, so please can you clear it up once and for all, what do you think the rule should be ie how far back must one go. I think you will find that as soon as you begin to try and define a Guernsey person you will realise the point we are all trying to make.
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You accused me, of not answering your question to me;
well I might also ask why you never answered my question to you, “What kind of Captain were you?” that was straightforward enough.
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2 Lines
“how could I possibly XENOPHOBIC”
and
“The rest should toe the line Guernsey fashion or leave”
kind of puts this one in perspective
“going through this blog I see I and I alone has been set up to ridicule”
You set yourself up, no-one else did
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Scarlett
Dave Jones makes a lot more sense than your post does. As he says “what has he got to get out of”?
What has he actually done wrong? because from what i`ve read it`s just more rubbish by the GP and i`m surprised you can see that.
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When did you ask me what “type” of Captain I am? This has no relevance anyway.
My question to you, asking for a definition of a Guernsey person is pivotal to your argument for a Guernsey run only by “Guernsey People”.
Your constant dodging around this question merely proves my point, that the idea of a “True Guernsey Person” doesn’t exist.
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Not sure if there should be any “proper ol guerns” commenting here – after all they all live “out west” eating vraic and only come to the ” bright lights of the big ol capit’al once a year” they are 5 foot tall and wear jumpers(guernseys) and fishermans hats and they “dont av no need for lectirc-got gas lamps ay” so how would they have the power to power a laptop, a laptop to use, not to mention the internet connection to log on and use this site.
After all as proper proud guerns we dont want no progress eh!
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Well done to the Guernsey Press for managing to make a story out of nothing! You really should put your wooden spoon away and concentrate on reporting the facts. I cannot believe the first article made the front page, though I notice that Dave Jones’ response didn’t make it to the front page. I believe that Deputy Jones has the right to apply for change of use just as the rest of us have.
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Perhaps no relevance to you; but I ask merely to see where your Captaincy fits.
Was it naval or sea going, or Military EG army
If these question are not relevant then so are yours about 60,000 years ago.
as I mentioned you are trying it on—
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