Saved schools come under attack again
Friday 25th September 2009, 2:30PM BST.
The debate over the closure of St Andrew's Primary School (above) and St Sampson's Infants could be reopened.
PARENTS of pupils at two schools saved from closure just months ago are dismayed that the debate might be opened again.
Tribal Consulting’s Fundamental Spending Review recommends that Education match the number of places in schools to what the island needs.
Closing St Andrew’s Primary and St Sampson’s Infants could save £4.56m. over five years, it says. Both schools survived a debate on closing them in January.
Pupils could be absorbed by other schools and some teachers redeployed.
Lois Falla, whose son Harvey, 8, goes to St Andrew’s, said the school’s future had been decided and the report’s recommendations were predictable.
‘It is just about cutting costs – they are not experts in education. If this goes any further, the people who are talking about it need to remember they are talking about the lives of children,’ she said.
‘We won the argument fair and square and it was based on fact. The children have already been through enough disruption.’
St Sampson’s PTA chair Tracey de Carteret was not surprised by the report’s recommendations.
‘If the States debate it we will deal with it as and when it happens,’ she said. ‘We are not worried. The intake is in and parents will start registering with us again.’
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Hi.
Well the States as usual will flog this dead horse until they get what they want.
GD.
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Why don’t they look at the duplication and overspend on administrators within thier own departments. The raising once again of the school closures will undoubtedly have got the head spinning of the flashy PR guy and caused a group of civil servants to discuss how they are going to handle the public outcry. How much will that have cost us the tax payer ?
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Rather than closing schools, why don’t the States spend less money on consultants like Tribal Helm and hosting events like the British Irish Council?
Or maybe get rid of the States and let Tribal Helm run the island, they seem to be doing that anyway.
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Reminds me of that part in the “Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy”:
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again.
Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.
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It was irresponsible of the Guernsey Press to send reporters to the school again yesterday on a subject they seem hell-bent on spinning. Very cynical journalism.
Report it yes, but why upset the children again by turning up in person when the debate has already been had about their school and the States have democratically made their decision. Try concentrating on the other items in the Tribal Helm report that have not yet been visited!
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The wrong decision was made last time. Sentiment and narrow minded self interest won the day. Close them both down and within a year or three nobody will notice the difference.
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Martino
Supporting the parish schools was part of my manifesto promise to the people of the Vale, I gave that commitment because I believe our parish schools are part of the rich fabric that makes Guernsey what it is, and they are an essential part of the glue that holds special little communities such as ours together. My other reason is that I believe education got its forecast wrong, the Vale together with St Sampson have become the most densely populated areas after SPP in the island with more housing developments in the pipeline. More housing will mean more children and we will need those schools in the future. If there is spare capacity then give it over to nursery places and keep the schools viable by using all the space available for our children.
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Well said Martino, its a shame the States bowed to pressure last time from a vocal few, when the cost of this wrong decision is borne by all.
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The dumbing down of education in the UK is one of the root causes of its downfall. Lets not follow in their foosteps as I still wish to be able to go for a stroll in the evening without body armour.
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I have to agree with Marcel, this story could have been reported without any need to visit the school in person. If comment from the headteacher or other staff was required it could have been done via a telephone call or email.
I see little point in revisiting this debate in the current States just because Tribal Helm disagrees with the decision made earlier this year. Irrespective of my personal opinion on the matter the debate is over, the decision has been made – move on. If this has to be revisited, at least wait until after the next election.
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Paul,
The longer the States wait, the more money is used to keep these schools running. The WAO report effectively notes that the States failed to act corporately and some members instead decided to vote against closure to minimise their personal risk of not being re-elected.
There are two sides to these potential closures – firstly it is fully accepted that there would be an impact on the pupils, parents and staff at these two schools, but secondly NOT closing these schools impacts the pupils, parents and staff in all other schools due to the continuing imbalance of resource allocation to these two.
There is also the possibility that the actual savings could be higher than the levels identified by Tribal – these schools won’t last forever and at some point they will need to be refurbished or re-built, either of which would involve significant disruption and capital expenditure.
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Hi Dave, I appreciate what you say but I disagree. I’d rather ditch the parochial sentiment (that’s all it is at the end of the day) and go with the experts who have done the education demographics for the island as a whole. Like Tribal Helm, they have come to the conclusion that these two schools can be closed with significant savings and completely without detriment to the education of the pupils they currently serve.
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I find it quite odd that something which will save 4.6M in 5 years was vetoed essentially by a vocal few when you contrast thats to the 260M we would save on the incinerator which we cannot seem to get the states to see sense about.
Thats says a lot for parochial sentiment, Martino, I can see your point of view but I found it heartening the know that very occasionally our elected few will listen to the masses.
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This story is a microcosm of the formidable decisions that face the States, and the island generally, in meeting the challenges of Tribal’s Fundamental Spending Review.
Some of the potential savings could emanate from rationalising the bureaucracy of government in such areas as IT, property management and human resources. These are largely apolitical and hopefully will not become a cause celebre for external lobby groups or the various loose affiliations within the States – right/left, cabinet/consensus, reformers/traditionalists etc.
However, if the island is to maximise cost savings, many of the potential big hits are in areas that would materially affect people’s lives, for example: primary school closures; public funding of private colleges, the bus company, Beau Sejour, public libraries, the road ambulance service and the dairy industry; the number of scholarships available at the private colleges; and the possible commercialisation or privatisation of Guernsey Water, the ports and States Works.
These are sensitive, controversial issues which are bound to provoke profound clashes of emotion, logic, politics and culture between States members, the general public, articulate and powerful special interest lobby groups, and the media.
Only a fool would predict that the States will adopt every possible cost-saving measure identified by Tribal. Some are probably overly-ambitious; others may prove politically unacceptable to our community. But if we establish an appropriate decision-making process to underpin the FSR [and there is a debate lurking on that point], I think that in time consensus will emerge in the States about what to cut and what not to cut, in order to deliver meaningful savings without compromising what Tribal says are among the best services they have come across anywhere.
As far as school closures are concerned, it was inevitable that Tribal would recommend further review.
It is a fact that for many years the number of young children has been falling quite considerably, so that there are now more than 400 surplus places in the primary school sector. In addition, all credible demographic assessments project that there will be further decline, or at the very extreme end of projections at least no increase, in school rolls.
The Education Board is yet to take a view on the extent to which it would wish to re-open that particular debate, although clearly, like every possible cost-saving item identified by Tribal, it should not be ignored. I cannot conceive of any circumstances that could possibly prevent primary schools rationalisation from being re-debated by the States in the foreseeable future. It would be a foolish department that tried to frustrate the spending review by burying any of the major areas recommended for further review.
Despite ultimately reaching a different conclusion to those that lobbied so hard and so successfully against school closures [I reluctantly voted to close both], I can appreciate fully that the first paragraph in Jess’ story above must be very true indeed – some parents must be dismayed.
However, they are now in the same position as every user and stakeholder of Elizabeth College, Ladies College, Blanchelande Girls College, the dairy, Guille-Alles Library, Island Coachways, Beau Sejour and the States-owned trading companies, all of which have been identified as areas for review, and ultimately possibly efficiency savings and funding cuts.
And therein lies what could prove to be the defining political challenge that faces this States. Only one thing is certain – our community faces massively difficult choices about the funding of discretionary services on a scale probably unprecedented in recent history.
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Matt said:
‘It is a fact that for many years the number of young children has been falling quite considerably, so that there are now more than 400 surplus places in the primary school sector. In addition, all credible demographic assessments project that there will be further decline, or at the very extreme end of projections at least no increase, in school rolls.’
My case exactly. The immediate closure of these two costly and totally unnecessary schools should have been, and still should be, be an absolute ‘no-brainer’.
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The Man,
Although I reluctantly disagreed with those that wished to retain the two schools, I don’t think it’s fair to say that the closures were “vetoed essentially by a vocal few”.
It is certainly true the parents and other interested parties that campaigned against the closures were vocal and not tremendous in number [hundreds, not thousands]. But one must recognise that their lobbying was predictable and perfectly legitimate. They had every right to represent their interests and those of their children, as they saw them. Their campaign was emotionally powerful and clearly successful.
However, ultimately the decision did not rest with those lobby groups. The closures were defeated by those deputies [28 in respect of St Andrew’s; 24 in respect of St Sampson’s] that voted against primary schools rationalisation, although one could argue that the notion of closing St Andrew’s was bound to lose once three of the five members of the Education Board came out against.
And I don’t think the importance of parochial loyalty among deputies should be over-estimated either. St Sampson’s and the south-east electoral district, which includes St Andrew’s, each have six seats in the Assembly. From memory, I think that 11 of those 12 united to vote against both closures, which was predictable and probably understandable. But there were 35 others [i.e. the vast majority] free to take a view in the interests of the education service and the island more generally.
I think those of us who sit on Education have to accept that the merits of a logical case were not presented in a politically robust manner. It was not our department’s finest hour by a long way.
Andy,
In what way do you regard the debate about closing/merging primary schools to absorb surplus places as related to what you call the “dumbing down” of education?
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Matt
I understand what you mean about more people than live in the parishes voted to keep the schools open, but I think that misses the point. Dave Jones (Vale) also cited as a primary reason the schools being a vital part of the “glue which binds the community”.
Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that many others think that way too.
Let me ask you this: What does that say about Torteval and St Peter? My word, what a disastrous ramshackle collection of curtain twitching individualists they must be! They don’t have a primary school and have to send their dirty offspring to welcoming St Saviours and the Hougette.
Patently the above statement is nonsense, as the community spirit in Torteval and St Peters, I would argue, is at least as strong as those in any other parish. Similarly, certain St Saviour residents moaned htat the community spirit would disappear once the Tavern was closed.
Sorry, but I can’t see it.
One of the primary arguments in favour of retaining the schools (as stated by many) therefore fails.
Shut’em!
Which reminds me. Justme… ok, so there are inefficiencies – ones which represent 4% of the annual budget. Just 4%. That doesn’t sound like a COMPLETE bunch of headless chickens are running the place! of that £70m, £5m I believe comes from closing the schools as suggested. That’s 7% alone of the 4%. A good start!
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While the case to close these schools is a very strong one and the question of college funding will return very soon I am amazed that the very obvious case to close the schools music service is not top of the agenda. In this current climate how can it be right to give totally free Music lessons, when music is already taught in island schools. Added irony is that the majority of children given free lessons have other activities happily paid for by their parents. If money is available for music why are dance, drama and sports not treated equally. If any sense is to come from education cuts then surely these luxuries should go first. I understand the UK does not supply this service and more to the point the teachers, in the main, did not benefit from this type of free service yet they still followed their passion regardless.
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Paul
As a local musician in my 60′s who has played for many many years in orchestras, band, groups, ensembles, and who’s children used the schools music service in the past I can tell you this.
Children who attend the music centre as a whole are well behaved, and learn a certain discipline, not only in playing a musical instrument, but also with reacting with others, and of being part of a team, which gives them a great amount of pleasure and pride in what they do.
This in turn gives them a great start in life, and the majority carry on playing music into their adult life.
To my mind very few of these children turn out to be delinquent if any, and if I had it my way I would certainly increase the resources of the music service, which would no doubt decrease the load of the Police, Courts, Probation Service, etc, etc.
Finally, the children who attend the Music Service are from all walks of life, and I would think that the majority of parents would be unable to pay for this service as you suggest.
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Matt
Thanks for your in depth reply, an interesting read.
My point on Parochial sentiment was more along the lines that it was a specific area or Parish that grouped together to put forward an as you admit “emotionally powerful and sucessful” campain.
The point I was trying to make was that we have the ability to do it in a closer society, i.e a parish, but when the issue is island wide I dont beleive that the voice is as loud.
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Muzeek
I fully appreciate your point of view as a direct benificiary of this free service. I don’t see the relevance of your opinion that the music srvice giving free school time lessons to pupils some how instills more self worth than they are getting through their normal schooling and the various other clubs,teams in which they participate. Also I think we need to make the point that the music service and the Saturday music centre are funded differently. The £650K savings primarily would come from the school time lessons. You also seem to choose to forget the excellent opportunities the children have through playing for their school orchestra, a case in point is the Grammar School, their orchestra was the only guernsey representative at this years National competition. You also omit to mention the other thousands of school children who do other equally character building activities eg Drama,dancing, sports.etc etc who do not benefit from funding relying totally on their parents support,so why the special case for music. The Education budget is under attack, do you really think free music lessons is more important than maintaining more mainstream services?
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Sorry Martino, do you happen to work for the states, and are foreign? Do you not care about children’s education, or perhaps you have never had children, and do not wish to do so.
The states can save these “millions” of pounds by sacking the large amount of employees in their own sectors, or perhaps reducing their wage packet!
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The Man,
Fair point.
There is certainly a relationship between the proximity of the public to politicians, and the influence local lobbying is likely to have over politicians.
There is bound to be a degree of conflict in the mind of a politician between leading the community and representing it when decisions are required on emotive, sensitive items.
Whenever a major item is to be debated by the States, the lobbying from both sides of the argument is quite intense, and both sides claim – and passionately and genuinely believe – that virtually the whole island is behind them.
Only this week I have received phone calls from some people telling me I would be an idiot to vote in favour of the proposed runway rehabilitation, and phone calls from others telling me I would be an idiot not to vote for the proposals.
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Rollicking good idea from GG there. Let’s slash staff numbers/wages and in a stroke decimate the services that has been stated by Tribal Helm and WAO as “excellent”.
See how quickly the island is swamped in rubbish on the streets, pipe bursts, traffic lights not working, no police on the streets (all in doing paperwork), reduction in port opening times, etc etc.
I know quite a few States Employees, the days of sitting around twiddling thumbs are long gone (if they ever existed!).
GG = Greatly goofy!
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“Sorry Martino, do you happen to work for the states, and are foreign?”
What the hell has whether someone is ‘foreign’ got to do with anything unless you are ‘anti’ foreigner?
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