Ending college grants would create a ‘damaging elitism’
Monday 5th October 2009, 1:00PM BST.
WITHDRAWING college grants would make education two-tier and elitist, says Elizabeth College principal George Hartley.
He was responding to a States spending review which called into question subsidies to the colleges.
Tribal Consulting’s investigation said that they could either stop or be reduced because there was enough provision for pupils in States schools.
But Mr Hartley said that the college was good value compared to private schools in the UK.
‘Tribal have looked at it from a financial point of view and have made their conclusions.
‘But we educate a lot of special place holders and if funding is withdrawn it will make it more exclusive,’ he said.
Mr Hartley said he loved the inclusive nature of the school.
‘At the moment it is affordable and I don’t want it to become an elitist school.’
He added that it had a great tradition of working with the States.
‘When we find out more, we will work through it. All schools are all responsible for the education of the island’s children and therefore we need to be part of an integrated system to do that.
‘If it became a two-tier system it would be very damaging.’
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Who owns the College? If the College became a private school and ceased to trade who would benefit from a sale of its assets?
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Why should it become more elitist? Is the fact that a top class education can be got for free so abhorrent to these people?
It’s already elitist just by stating this nonsense.
It is just another subsidy for the rich. Oh, and don’t bother pretending that it helps the less privileged and that it saves States cash. It’s cobblers.
If you want private, fund it yourself.
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Another question. If the College produced an operating profit who would benefit from it? Perhaps if we no longer included it in our own educational system it could be turned into a revenue generating facility for the Island.
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folks who send their children to the colleges have been doing it on the cheap for years. The question of elitism is a red herring if there is no subsidy and you wish to send your child to a private school get a part time job to pay for it, there are plenty out there. Job done! I suspect that the vast majority of parents who send their kids to the colleges don’t need a subsidy and would send the kids to the colleges come hell or high water.
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So its OK for Education to promote their own form of elitism via the Schools Music Service and lavish thousands of pounds on each childs free music lessons on top of those already given as part of the curriculum but not to reward those who are academically gifted. Lets have a level playing field and include all seperatly funded areas of education spending.
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paul your falling into the smokescreen trap which supporters of private school funding always use. i believe most people would support continuing the scholarship system but removing the subsidy for fee payers.You may wish to know that the grammar school is perfectly adept at rewarding the academically gifted.
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Kevin
Just for the record I am not a supporter of the current college funding and do recognise that the Grammar school does an excellent job. My point is that why are all areas of Education spending not looked at with the same sharp eye as the regularly dragged out Colleges, primary schools.
Why are admin costs such as the need for full time PR staff and the gold plated Schools Music Service not looked at?
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Kevin, I think you are right. What would be even better would be for the College to offer the special places free as a form of rent. There would need to be a significant increase in fees but perhaps for local people there could be a “voucher” whereby they could pass the savings from not using the State schools on to the college and get a reduced fee.
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Horace
How do you define local, as I think you will find that all children at the colleges are locally qualified therefore what savings will be made?
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Hi Paul
I was imagining that for the College to operate profitably it will need to revert to having boarders. I doubt if the Guernsey population will be able to keep the College going in a full fee environment.
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Horace [in reply to 7 Oct, 9.52],
All three grant-funded colleges have a different status in terms of the ownership of their properties, governance arrangements, and their relationship with the States.
Kevin [9 Oct, 8.41],
I agree with you entirely – there is a significant difference between the money paid by the States for special place holders at the colleges (for the 11-plus scholars), and the general States subsidies they receive per student, which effectively reduces the amounts they charge private fee-payers.
Paul [9 Oct, 9.46],
Tribal Consulting, the firm leading the Fundamental Spending Review of the States, has been through all departments, including Education, with a fine-toothed comb.
They have identified 13 opportunities for cost-saving specific to Education. These are a matter of public record and have been published as part of Billet d’Etat XXV and on the States website.
Hopefully, in answer to your question, this demonstrates that all areas of Education have been examined as thoroughly as the examples you give, the colleges and primary schools.
On a more general note, Tribal has recommended opportunities for cost-savings from both sources of funding that the colleges receive from the States: “EDO9 reduce/cease subsidy paid to private schools” and “ED23 reduce number of special places (scholarships) at the private schools”.
The existing funding arrangements between the Education Department and the colleges have been put in place by the States until 2012. A thorough review is due well before the current ‘contract’ expires – i.e. 2010/11 – so Tribal’s advice may be particularly apposite in helping to inform that pending review.
Not surprisingly, Tribal have given this one a ‘high risk’ rating. It could be argued that it’s the most politically-sensitive and divisive of all the items in Tribal’s review, but that shouldn’t stop the States getting stuck into it well before the end of this term. The outcome, though, is very unpredictable.
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The very existence of these private schools creates a two tier system and provides a cheap entry for the wealthy into an elitist system. It teaches the special place holders that they are privileged to be allowed to attend such a school, although not of the class for which the private school is intended, and that the State schools are second best.
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Cheap Ted ? Cheap ? do you have any idea what the college fees are ??
I, and I know a few others, took one look at Mare de Carteret and its portacabins and decided to spend just about all our spare money sending our son to Elizabeth College instead …. and a fair amount was already going into savings to pay for university if and when the time comes.
If the subsidy ends the states is going to have to cram one pupil more into a school that is bursting at the seams and falling apart
. Mind you i’ll also be able to give up my part time job, buy a new car, and go on a decent holiday again …. all courtesy of the taxpayer who will be paying for my sons education in full ……
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As a chap from Bristol, England; I have been lucky to find myself in a relationship with a beautiful lady from Guernsey. She is in receipt of a student grant/loan from your government and to be frank I do not know how on this planet she would be attending University without this financial support. It is a testiment to your government that such support is available. Afterall, the more University students you have the better educated your society will be. Where it maybe a financial loss to dish out grants the net result will only enhanse your society. If my other half is anything to go by you must be a lovely bunch of people so good on you all x
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There can be no doubt that the present system for assisting the funding of Elizabeth College, Ladies College and Blanchelande is fundamentally flawed and is in need of revision.
On the basis that all parents pay their fair share of taxes, then it is reasonable to assume that each child’s education is entitled to the same amount of funding whether at state or private school. (This figure should include capital spending and not just revenue (running costs) expenditure.)
Then, if parents for some reason wish to spend more on the private education of their children, there should be opportunity to do so.
The three colleges are both part of Guernsey’s education system and part of our heritage, and have been so for hundreds of years. They are entitled to be considered equally with other educational establishments and to receive equal funding. As many have already commented – without them their students’ education would totally fall upon the States.
Regrettably, much of the comment, both in the States and in the media is based upon ignorance of the facts and jealousy. This is to a degree perpetuated by the system of awarding scholarships (or assisted places) to successful 11plus students. With the availability of the Grammar School this is no longer appropriate and should cease.
Because of this ongoing argument, the States owned Ladies College has been starved of capital and its students are taught in portacabins – even though the educational standard has proved to be the best in the Channel Islands. The other two colleges are privately owned and have been capital funded by ex-students and other sources.
Now is the time to sort out this mess, not by cutting off the funding but by making it fair and equitable, and by recognising the importance of a second string in the system.
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Matt Fallaize
Firstly I would like to thank you for taking the time to engage with us on this forum.
I take on board what you say, however I would still like someone to tell me why we are paying thousands of pounds per pupil for music lessons. As I have stated before many of these pupils seem to have no problem funding other activities and it is totally unfair on other non funded areas of sport, drama etc. To my knowledge Jersey and the UK do not offer this free service. Furthermore how can we taxpayers feel well represented and support Education’s spending plans when this free service is a complete luxury for those ‘chosen’ to participate.
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According to the Independent Schools Council the average annual day fee for 2008/2009 was £11,799. According to the Elizabeth College website the equivalent figure is £6633 to £7350. That’s what I mean by cheap entry for the wealthy; a nearly 30% fee reduction sounds good to me. Who pays for this reduction? The general taxpayer who is already funding the States education system.
The average taxpayer probably earns a lot less than you do. If you want an elitist system pay for it yourself don’t beg from the taxpayer.
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tony,
your choice to use elizabeth college so don’t winge. Also find some cheaper schools in the u.k. and post their fees here then people may listen to you.
By the way I cant find any private schools in the u.k. cheaper than Ladies College.
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Paul, do you have any figures for extra-curricular funding by activity? I know that the music service is funded, I also know that drama and sport are funded. On this basis I have no problem with the funding available for the Schools Music Service, unless you can prove that there is a huge funding discrepancy between activities??
Ted – great post.
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Strike a deal with the OU.
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Student Bob
Funding for private one to one lessons in Drama, Dance and Sport….ZERO. Funding for the Schools Music Service to give one to one lessons £650,000. That’s fair?
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If a child is academically able then are we declaring that the Grammar school is not of sufficient quality to meet his/her needs?
Guernsey operates a two tier system of education already, with two of the high schools having to exist in woeful surroundings and conditions. Remove the subsidy completely from the colleges. Push through the rebuilding of Les Beaucamps and get the La Mare project underway asap. Why subsidise the rich? We already provide them with a system of tax that makes them richer.
Also follow Mr Cameron’s words and release the funding direct to headteachers to spend the money where it should be spent!
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I agree with some of the sentiments above. Remove the subsidies to the colleges but also get rid of the grammar school and spend the money saved into upgrading rebuilding Les Beaucamps and La Mare de Carteret schools. It is about time there was a level playing field – true comprehensive education is what is needed – where children are all given the opportunity to have the same education. All children who want to go on to do higher education end up at the grammar or college of further education anyway – why split them from their friends for 4 years in between with all the well known psychological damage caused by being labelled as ‘failures’ for those not ‘selected’ for grammar school education? A substantial number of children ‘selected’ for the grammar got there because their parents paid for private tuition in how to pass the 11+ – and they are struggling to keep up, and some require extra lessons and support etc. Other children at the secondary schools should be at the grammar – being top of their class is most lessons. The other thing that really bugs me is the difference in uniforms. Scruffy sweatshirts (after a few washes) and trousers for the secondary schools but shirt/tie and jacket for the grammar and colleges. . I know that clothes do not make a school but we should have a standard uniform and shirt and jackets look smarter and give children some pride and a lesson in how to dress smartly.
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Molly
Hear, hear.
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I’ve read some rubbish on these forums but this one is partially impressive. This is typically media driven and wagon jumping at best. The island wants to spend 300millon and we need to make cuts. So let’s pick on education, let’s pick on the colleges, grammar, even uniforms!
I mean “psychological damage caused by being labeled as ‘failures’”, All this from moving schools, when a lot of parents move their children when they move houses, when they move off island, or when they break up, get real eh!
If I sent my children to college I’d happily spend an extra 4k if it meant that
Since I have medical care and my own pension (and the fact I’m self employed an don’t get sick cover) I don’t have to pay Social Security (saving 5k year).
And Ed, please define Rich. Is that the same rich as a person who, like me doesn’t smoke or drink, does not earn a large salary but chooses (when my children get older) to send them to a college. And Ed while you on the subject how much does it cost to send children to Secondary schools, Are taxpayers who don’t have children happy to pay towards that?
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Ok lets clear one thing up – the current 11+ system is elitist.
So you either replace it entirely…or what else?
One point that keeps coming up here is that the “rich” send their kids to the colleges. What, pray, is rich? Well if its paying to send a child to college then I’m rich.
But my neighbours can’t be rich because they send thier kid to a Secondary school. They did spend all of August in the USA mind you – and had a great time by all accounts.
I think you will find that most parents who send their children to the colleges are not rich – they just have different priorities.
Innit.
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relax folks,
the subsidy paid to the colleges will never be removed the high parish deputies and old school tie brigade will see to that
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Well done Molly – spot on !
This two tier system does exist – and it starts in the playground with kids bragging how their parents would never let them go to a secondary school.
I totally agree about the uniforms too – why do the so called ‘clever’ kids have shirts, ties, jackets etc? Is it taken for granted that parents of secondary school children can only afford a sweatshirt ? (and in the case of LMDC, not even one with a logo on ?)
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How about taking off all subsidies for fee-payers and creating more scholarship places? That would have a flow-on effect of freeing up more places at the Grammar school and perhaps be a “fairer” approach to funding.
Personally, if my child had the option of Elizabeth/ Ladies College or Grammar i think it would be a tough choice. When education levels, facilities etc are pretty much on a par, “elitism” is really the only card left to play.
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Until our governement recognise that they need to prioritise the refurbishment of schools like Beaucamp, then I am glad some kids at least get a chance to get into the Grammar or Colleges by way of a States sponsored scholarship.
If we could be guaranteed decent facilities for our children in ALL our secondary schools then by all means withdraw college grants.
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All this is very interesting, but one this is clear, very few people really know anything about the College’s have you seen the new facilities available in the States schools? There amazing! In any society you are never going to get everybody equal, some people are so selfish, embrace our isands achievements and keep tradition alive
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I always thought these places were originally intended for bright children whose parents could not afford a college education, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Perhaps the 11+ scholarship places to the colleges should be subject to means testing to ensure that the places are going to such children and not to those whose parents want the type of education provided by the colleges but who can take advantage of the current system to get into college via the 11+ and therefore not need to pay. As someone else said, it’s a case of priorities for many families.
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Paul, thanks, but you haven’t answered my question, after all, how the Music Service chooses to spend their grant is irrelevant.
Would you not agree that its fair that drama, music and sport are funded as extra-curricular activities? Unless you’ve got evidence that the investment in music is substantially higher than drama or sports, I fail to see that you have an argument.
What’s next on your hitlist?? Cycling proficiency?
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Student Bob
I must be getting old as I thought it was clear that Drama, music sport,dance etc are not funded fairly. The way the Music Service is funded is very relevant as the money is spent giving a chosen minority school time free instrument lessons all paid for by the tax payers. This is entirely wrong when cuts are constantly put forward for front line education. No UK or even Jersey authority funds a service like this, why do we? I know in your Education Utopia everything should be free but one day you will be asked to fund all of this through taxation ( if your chosen name is relevant or just your take on your position in life) perhaps then you will have a more realistic opinion on what services can be provided.
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jiminy billy bob
get a grip!
have you seen the new pavilion going up at ONE of elizabeth college’s playing fields thats right the one next to the floodlit astro turf football\hockey pitch. And this school needs a state subsidy? Go down to the facilities at elizabeth college then take a trip to La Mare De Carteret and Les beaucamps and you’ll see what I mean.Or better still stand outside ladies college or elizabeth college and see the vehicles the students are dropped off in it might help you keep this in perspective.
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