Plans to tax polluters off the roads unveiled
Monday 12th October 2009, 2:30PM BST.
THOUSANDS of motorists face paying to help the island cut carbon emissions.
Environment is considering options to discourage car owners from buying and using high-emission vehicles. Taxing those with these types of vehicle is a way of achieving that objective, it said.
The department has released a consultation document but stressed it was not yet putting forward any firm proposals.
It suggested some ‘hypothetical’ policy examples including a green tax on fuel at 50p per litre – making fuel around £1.34 a litre or more than £6 a gallon – or introducing a flat registration fee of £2,000 for any vehicle with CO2 emissions above 120g/km.
Environment deputy minister Jenny Tasker said it was important that people looked at the document and commented.
‘We are looking to receive responses from a wide variety of individuals and organisations, whether commercial, charitable or otherwise,’ she said.
‘It is important that we hear from as many sources as possible because this is a matter that may impact upon the lives of all islanders. Government must always consider carefully before imposing new or additional taxes and the responses to this consultation paper will assist the States in making the right decisions.’
Environment was required to investigate the introduction of a sliding emissions tax after the States noted the Policy Council’s Energy Policy paper in 2008.
It was also asked to investigate the possibility of a subsidy for zero-emission vehicles.
The department said it had examined schemes in other European jurisdictions and noted consultation undertaken in Jersey.
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Hooray!! At last someone has the guts to suggest that there needs to be a large increase in the cost of motoring in order to get people out of their cars. As well as a significant hike in fuel duty, and a punitive one-off charge on the heavy polluters, let’s also have paid parking at a hefty rate (say £1 per hour) which will also help to reduce traffic significantly.
That might make people think twice about jumping in their cars, rather than believing that they have an automatic right to drive and park the pesky things wherever they see fit.
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let’s be honest, this island is perfect for electric cars.
well done to the ED for starting the debate, now please see it through (??!). we don’t want another episode like the paid parking debacle.
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Or we could not. this would mean anyone with a slightly older car either pays more or goes and buys a brand new car in order to avoid the cost.
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So that’s why Customs & Excise needed the ‘fuel tester’ vans, a bigger differential makes the purchase clear. Must be a foregone conclusion that it will happen.
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Environment can do what they like to try and get people out of their cars, it will make no difference as those that can afford to spend 30K+ on ‘Chelsea Tractors’ will just pay whatever it costs to use them, as usual it will probably hit those who can least afford it!
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I think the fuel duty makes more sense than the registration fee. I cycle to work most of the time, but I do need a car for some trips.
The choice of cars below 120g is pretty poor. Between AUDI, BMW, Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Honda, Mercedes, Vauxhall and VW I counted 16 models, all of them small family cars or tiny city cars. I could understand setting the limit at say 200, to discourage the real gas guzzlers, but taxing people for buying a family car for occasional use seems unfair.
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Phil. Acually, motorists do have an automatic right to drive, having paid their road tax via the forecourt. Most will continue to do so whatever the cost. As for £1 an hour to park, I don’t have a problem with that if applied to the short term areas.
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I agree with both Dan and Kevin who make excellent points.
- The choice of vehicles below 120g is very restrictive, pretty much anything with a 1.6l engine or above would be hit, not just the heavy guzzlers (so called “Chelsea Tractors” and the like) that people seem to take most issue with. I wouldn’t call a saloon car with a 1.8litre engine a gas guzzler!
- Since many commercial vehicles would fall into the 120+ bracket, businesses would also be hit -not the finance industry mind you, the likes of plumbers, electricians etc. including sole traders and small businesses who could do without another tax.
- Those that can afford expensive “gas guzzler” vehicles will just pay the extra – so no environmental benefits will be gained in that particular sphere.
I think it’s a good idea to have a consultation on this matter as there’s no doubt the island has a traffic problem. We just need to make sure we think very carefully before taking action, ensuring that all the wider consequences are taken into account.
A wider strategy to tackle the number of vehicles on the road is a good idea however I do think that unless draconian measures are brought in the car is here to stay. We therefore have to think about ways we can encourage people to decrease their use. As people generally react better to encouragement rather than being told what to do, perhaps some ideas for the melting pot would include:
- car sharing initiatives with financial benefits such as cheaper fuel or priority parking for car-sharers
- an increase in “park and ride” services into town to decrease congestion
- Cycle to work schemes that provide discounts for bikes and possibly tax benefits to users.
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good point Dan. whilst I agree with movements in this direction, the details should be fair so as to discourage unnecessary car use (or the use of unnecessary cars…) rather than car use per se.
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As a slightly tongue in cheek response to this article, I wonder how much the new incinerator will be taxed for its air pollution?
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If anyone’s interested, here’s a list of cars 120g/km or less available:
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/CONGESTION-CHARGE-EXEMPT-CARS-LIST.htm
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I can’t help feeling that more islanders will be punished than necessary through this scheme. Do people on Guernsey really do a huge number of miles more than they have to? With the current speed limits in place cars are running at an uneconomical rate anyway! If this was to happen I think it only fair that this has a 3 year run in period anyway, but I think questions should be asked as to where the extra funds raised would be spent, is this just more penny pinching?
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Also just as a point are people aware of the impact electric cars truly have on the planet? Furthermore what about those people that just love going for a drive in a nice car with a bit of character to it! I say ban electric cars!
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How much will it cost to collect this tax?
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Not even a smart car can get away with this if you have 225 tyres on the back which puts out a modest 124g/km.
Some one needs to wake up and realise that the states are after more of your money and more of your wages while wanting less vehicles on the road. If there is less vehicles then they spend less on resurfacing the roads. If they spend less on resurfacing the roads, what are they going to do with the money they have saved cuz im damn sure the general public wont see it!!
Is your car green???? Check it out on the official UK Act on CO2 website…
http://actonco2.direct.gov.uk/actonco2/home/what-you-can-do/new-car-co2-emissions-model-search.html
Bet 90% of you will be shocked!!
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This is just another way for the States to fill in their black hole, yes I agree the huge jeeps which only carry 5 people (and usually just one woman who cannot drive is all that’s in it) should be targeted, but I drive a small motorbike and I only have a saturday job as I am a student, so rising the fuel cost to over £1 is absolutely ridiculous, the cost of living here is high enough already.
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I agree with paid parking, short term (over 2 hours) at a £1 an hour.
But to really get the number of cars reduced on the island is much easy then the above, just copy what Bermuda have done. One car per household, think how many cars that would get rid of?! Force people to seek other ways to get to work and about the island.
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Ah well £1 an hour eh!
that’s cheap-
where I live, and there is paid parking everywhere,
As we are out of town, it’s a little cheaper.
The cost: Approx: £1 for 15 minutes. 2 hours and that is maximum allowed £3.50.
We also have Toll roads, in and out on main Roads £1.50 each way. and rising.
So stop moaning and think how cheap you are getting a parking spot.
You want tax havens, then pay for them.
It’s time the so called people in charge woke up and did something worth while.
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This might seem like a silly question but what difference do high carbon emissions make on a small windy island where the wind would constantly blow the bad air away?
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Hoorah! I am sick to the back teeth of seeing bl**dy 4x4s with some hapless housewife behind the wheel (stop there feminists for I am a woman, yes it’s a stereotype but a deserved one in my experience) with ONE CHILD in a baby seat in the back. The ‘I need the space for my family’ line is a joke, my mum used to cart herself, us two and her friend and her two kids (albeit not particularly legally but still 2 adults and 3 kids if legally) plus all our beach gear to Vazon every weekend in her Polo. More often than not it’s a poor excuse for a posemobile.
I wouldn’t mind if they could drive the things, but on our small lanes it’s all too common to encounter one who can’t reverse and just sits there waiting for your car to sprout wings and fly over the top of them.
I think the extra charge for those over a certain emission would be best but, as has already been said, it’ll mostly affect those who aren’t at fault….
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Sorry phil i’ts not about having the guts to do anything ,its simply more desperate tax gathering and as usual worked out by people who are clueless.and i do have the right to drive whenever i see fit.the car i drive is one year old and has a peugeot diesel engine ,voted one of the cleanest lean burn engine in europe last year and yet it,s quoted co2 emissions are 153g/km so the target set is going to catch most users, and to be honest i won,t put my family out to be killed in a tiny little car with the integral strength of a crisp bag ,perhaps if some thought went into heavily taxing cyclists who have a long tailback of cars behind them making the car drivers journey even longer then that would take some guts.or penalising the road menders who drag jobs out for days longer than needs be by going home with four hours of daylight left or leaving the roads closed for a weekend just to be painted on mondays while drivers do the endless fuel consuming rounds of diversions,now that would take guts ,or tax the biggest polluters of all ,the buses ,ah hang on that won,t work because the taxpayer sorts the bill for fuel by indirect subsidies of 2.2m anyway so that would be taxing twice ,but thats never stopped them before but that would take some guts ,the problem with everything to to with overloads on the island is gross overpopulation so if someone wants to take up the banner of clearing the island of say 25 to 30000 people then that would really take some guts ,it’s what needs to be done
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Please ED don’t back down on this either. Negative press is no reason to keep going belly-up. Paid parking should also be brought back to the table. Pilot schemes could be trialled and I am sure there are companies out there who would go into a private-public partnership.
Heavy car usage should be discouraged regardless of living in Guernsey, UK or Europe. People will still require cars however where they can be discouraged we should at least try. Monies rasied can then be plowed into giving car users alternate options. Bring back the seafront tram and shuttle service to central bus hubs etc, etc. The options out there are boundless – what is lacking is imagination, drive and commitment. The losers will be Guernsey as an island. Not the people.
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This is just what the States want to see. Everybody fighting over motor policies again. Before you put your pennyworth in, just think for a moment The States are broke, they are going into debt,and they are scratching around everywhere to try and find money. They cannot increase the tax, they cannot increase insurance as in 010. They have already increased prices on everything to do with State Taxes and services. This is just another idea to make more money out of the population. We already pay a polluters tax and they still want more. We have been told, this is the most expensive place to live & work, & the States have been warned by the finance industry, to cut costs or they will go elsewhere. They still believe that the people will bail them out of this crisis. The question should be, not how much the gas guzzles will pay, but how much more money can the States take from us? This idea has nothing to do with Save the Planet, or CO2 emissions, but pure, pure greed.
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I think this is unfair they take away the motor tax and add it on to petrol then now thet want to charge us more. Im a mum of three so i do need a car to do the school trip shopping ect. I do walk when i can but with three kids it is a bit hard somtimes.
I cant affored £1.34 a litre that is to much why dont the states stop waisting money on projects that go over buget
its going to hit the lower earns more than anyone else AGAIN times are hard enough now with out the states making it worse once again
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Start the debate now followed by two years of consultation and dithering.
Just in time for the next election.Whichever politician fronts this idea just before an election is a dead duck
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Any one that believes this is an environmental tax is naive. This is nothing more than an attempt to raid our wallets further.
Green tax on fuel? Don’t make me laugh. How about raising the speed limits so existing vehicles can work more efficiently and pollute less?
What’s next? MoTs and compulsory emissions testing?
(And an FYI – electric vehicles are not zero emission – like “energy saving bulbs” so much energy goes into making then that the later savings are negligible – one also has to produce the electricity from somewhere – GE must be rubbing their hands in glee…)
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Some of us have no option but to use a vehicle due to the type of work we do. The rise that is being suggested is inflationary and some of us will have no option but to pass it on to the customer.
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This is certainly a debate to divide opinion; We already pay a “polluter pays” tax at the pump, increase it and unless there are exemptions for certain vehicles, eg Taxis, delivery vans etc we’ll all pay more than just the extra cost of filling our car, if its a tax on a new car will the garages cut staff because sales drop.
Will the owners of elctric cars have to pay the French for the pollution they cause by generating more electricity to power their”eco” cars. Why should we all drive puddle jumpers just because we live on a small island, a lot of people with larger cars use them for holidays off island.
It is also wrong to assume that 4×4′s etc are the worst offenders, many of the latest “large” vehicles are relatively good on emissions in comparison to an average car 5+ years old.
The biggest problem in Guernsey is the standard of driving and the culture of getting in the car to drive 1/4 of a mile to the shop.
Extra tax will deter a few, mostly those who can ill afford to do without a car for varying reasons, take smokers as an example, ciggys are taxed to the hilt but has that stopped people smoking?
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Hi all.
Would it not be better to have a form of MOT to test the emmissions on vehicles rather than penalise the masses for individual failings?
I have a Mitsi L200 diesel which is around 6 years old and I use it for work, pulling a large, heavy trailer. This vehicle has an EGR valve fitted (exhaust gas recirculator)which burns off the exhaust gases twice before releasing them. Is there anything else I can do? Im not a mechanic or an engineer.
Simply another steath tax and not a penny will go to ‘save the planet’!! i.e. we need more money lets call it an ‘ECO TAX’!!!! BULL!!
It’s a bit like blaming us for the packaging etc we have to dump……HELLO….we can’t help how items a packed when we purchase them!!!!! Blame the source, not us!!!
GD.
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Bogart
I pay my tobacco duty at the till each time I buy some cigarettes, that doesn’t give me the right to smoke anywhere I choose does it?
As for people continuing to use vehicles whatever the cost, that is plainly nonsense. If petrol was suddenly £10 per gallon do you really not think that some drivers would either give up altogether or certainly reduce their usage considerably, by either car sharing or using different modes of transport?
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All good ideas in priciple.
However the devil is, as always, in the detail.
As stated in the Press the only way to encourage small car usage is to use a number of measures. And I’m afraid that bringing back road tax is one of them. As is introducing an MOT.
Also car usage will not drop by whatever measures are taken – even if fuel is £10 a gallon…until there is a viable alternative. Which would require massive investment.
My suggestions would be to use a scheme similar to the UK in terms of CO2 emissions and really hit those above, say, 200 g/km.
- also an MOT would get rid of the really polluting bangers out there.
- as above, a sliding scale of road tax for CO2 per g/km (anything above 200 £5 grand a year!).
- leave fuel duty where it is – back in the real world we all need it and raising it won’t stop anything. It will just hit the least well off.
Simples.
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I can say, hand on heart, I don’t mind paying extra, even if it IS just to bail our States out (who are obviously trying to fill the coffers) if it means those hideous 4 x 4 monstrosities that are so entirely inappropriate for a small island, are driven not ‘off road’ (as they should be) but off THE road.
I am sick to the back teeth of seeing a loathsome wagon train of them sailing along the Forest Road each and every day, billowing yet more smog into the atmosphere for the sake of the driver’s ego and their ‘childrens safety’ (oh, purleez, is the thinner air up there affecting their brains?), or worse still, having to reverse for 1/2 a mile up a country lane because the clueless driver – mummy with one child / banker (delete as applicable) – cannot squeeze their urban tractor through.
Whilst I am here, I would also like to say I won’t miss them in the car park, taking up so much space that parking next to them is a virtual guarantee you’ll have damage to your door, and pass on my sincere thanks to the 4 x 4 driver who not only left a large dent in my beautiful new car the other day, but who also, with typical big car driver, arrogant mentality, drove off without leaving their details, and me with a bill to mend it.
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To Paul Le Page (and others)….we don’t have a traffic problem on the island! Yes, it’s a little busy around the start and end of the working day, but that is natural and will never change unless people start working staggered hours.
We also seem to have a States works department that tries to co-ordinate any road works to have the maximum impact on the motorist!
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Paul
I think a cycle to work plan with potential tax benefits to users is a fantastic idea.
It would have massive health benefits as well as getting more cars off the roads.
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I agree with some of the above and won’t repeat things. One point is that we live in a very distributed island. Friends, family and facilities are spread around. If you live in St Saviours and want to go and visit your aunt in the Castel one evening with a cake you’ve made her (can’t carry on bike) there is no convenient bus.
Let’s think carefully about why people use cars, what the actual, not supposed or imposed alternatives are, and not jump in with doctrinal impositions of views.
I agree with someone who said the real problem is too many people (in case it has escaped attention it is people who drive cars!). Do we manage that by restricting their movements or do we just get on with life?
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Ban cars like Sark and introduce a better transport system with also a govt backed mini cab service.
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Some of the above points ae very valid and some show an extreme naivety that has quite frankly shocked me. There are a couple of points that need to be considered.
Firstly the consultation document was published yesterday afternoon and there is a cynical part of me that believes some of the above comments are as a knee jerk reaction to the media coverage not the document itself. If you have not read the document I suggest you do. It will not win the Nobel prize for literature but does state all the options that are being looked at. I trust all people voicing their opinions here will be responding in the appopriate manner by Jan 2010.
Guernsey is a bespoke community to a certailn degree and needs to be considered as such.
I do not have an issue with paid parking or an approprite carbon charge, which is in effect what this will be but the reasons and intentions need to be discussed further. Almost every other juristiction in the world employs paid parking which is now accepted as a way of life. We live in an affluent society as a rule and are better off than a number of areas in the world. There is an acceptable standard of public transport on the Island but perhaps the carbon charge, registration fee or parking fees could be ring-fenced and used towards improving this system further. From a sociological aspect driving is now the accepted norm. Greater use of public transport would generate greater social interaction and perhaps improve the general well being of Islanders and social skills of our young. A comment earlier mentioned cycling. I think this is also an element that needs mention. I know it rains in the winter (and summer too conme to think of it) but it seems to work in Holland for instance where the climate is very similar. Perhaps improved cycle paths would be the way forward.
The simple fact is that although I whole heartedly agree with the arguments about smaller engined cars, business vehicles (especially as the road size is restrictve to some models) and what appears to be ‘just another tax’ there are alternatives to using the car, it is just the fact we may need to change our habits in order to save a bit of cash and that is what we are not comfortable with. Perhaps a fully detailed plan of what the States intends to do with our cash would calm the waters a touch if it is progressive, well thought out and improves our lifestyle.
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The Man, how would you suggest I take my 18mth old son to nursery? I have no desire to subject him to dicing with death on the back of bike for the journey in from the west coast!!
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Gilthead
A viable alternative that would require massive investment?
Walking and cycling hardly fit into that category, the bus service may do but with the increased revenue from additional users hopefully this would go a large way towards paying for it.
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Greg for Environment Minister !
I agree entirely that Guernsey’s so called traffic problem is mainly confined to the start and end of the working day
I live near L’Ancresse . It is now 10.15am on a Tuesday.Barring being stuck behind a cyclist,a horse rider or a man in a flat cap I reckon I could drive to Town by 10.35am
That is NOT a traffic problem
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Sir, I agree with Mal B Smith, The States are only after more of your money because they are nothing but a greedy bunch of rip-off morons, They over spend on every capital project they do, ( the harbour, and the new airport terminal, to name but two,)but they don’t care about that, because they say they can recupe the money from the general public, I also agree with Blogger, these extra costs will be past onto the general consumer, The amount of vans and lorries on Guernsey’s roads delivering every thing the public needs to sustain life, plus delivering to business’s around around the island, will not be able to absorb these extra high running costs, so yet again the cost of living will go up, prices will go through the roof, and people will want higher wages to off-set these idiotic ideas the States keep coming up with, For gawd’s sake stop hitting the general public with all these taxes, the island is dying, are you trying to see it’s early demise? Give it a rest States of Guernsey.
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Lets face it there are many journey’s we all take in our cars when it is not necessary to do so.
But are we all being duped. Watch the BBC this week and you will see that some scientists believe that there is no global warming. In fact the opposite has happened over the last decade.
Governments can pay huge amounts of money to convince some people to jump on the band wagon and wave the green banner in order that they (the Govenrments of the world)gain significant funds through taxation.
The question is who do you believe?
We all know what politicians are like! When can you tell a politician is lying?
When their mouth is moving.
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Greg
I was merely pointing out that if you had a cycle to work plan it would enduce more people who are able to (i.e someone like me who has no passenegers or doesnt have to carry too much to work) to use their bikes instead of being lazy.
That would take a fair volume of traffic off the roads, which would benefit the people who still have to use their cars for whatever reason (like yourself) and benefit the people who cycle in the form of discounts or tax breaks.
I dont understand why whenever you suggest some form of cycling scheme, people automatically assume you are trying to get everyone out of their cars, without actually thinking through the benefits to ALL sides before they make a comment about carrying children.
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The Man, but why should tax breaks be given to those who can choose to cycle to work and not to those who can’t cycle to work? It seems a bit unfair to me.
However, I agree that maybe people should be further encouraged to cycle. Perhaps taking the mammoth buses off the roads would be a start!
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arapaho – that is a hilarious post. citing cyclists as a reason for tailbacks! think for one minute about what would happen if every cyclist in this island went to work in a car rather than on a bike. the tailbacks at the traffic lights and junctions in town would be twice the size they are now.
I ride to work most days. I get overtaken by cars until I get to the outskirts of town. Then I overtake every single car that overtook me and then some more. If I held you up for a few moments while you waited for a safe place to overtake me, then I merely delayed your arrival at the back of the tailback. You get held up by other cars, not cyclists. My journey to work is quicker by bike than by car at that time of day and so if you are in a hurry, get out on the bike yourself!
As for more cycle lanes, please no. Cycle lanes were designed by well-meaning individuals with no idea about riding a bike. Our lanes are too narrow for cycle lanes and we need to respect that. Cyclists are much safer in the road where cars can see them rather than on the pavement (inevitably shared with pedestrians, so that produces a whole host of other safety issues). Cycle lanes also force cyclists to make unsafe manoeuvres to get back into the road when the cycle lane ends or crosses a side road – just use the road and use it safely and there are fewer problems.
A registration tax can be used to change people’s habit when buying a car, but does nothing for the amount of car use. Higher tax on petrol would discourage those who could not afford the higher prices, but hit the poor hardest. Maybe a combination of a registration tax for big engines (2l and above on a sliding scale?) and paid parking for longterm use. Paid parking for short term use discourages people from visiting town for essential jobs. It is the institutionalised use of one car per person to get to work that we need to discourage.
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What will the states actually do with the extra money Rasied.
Would commercial vehicles be taxed if so that will cost us agin as prices would rise?
Its just another Tax for the working Guernsey person. where will it end?
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Thats the age old question Greg
Who gets the money?? Who gets the breaks??
You could also ask “why should people who decide to have children get subsidy?? Surely its their decision, and thats unfair”
or equally
“why should people who cant be bothered to work, get money for it?? Thats unfair”
Everyone will have their own answer to both those questions because whatever any government does for one set of people, there will be another set who will think “I dont benefit from this”
This all depends on what the states want, if they want to reduce the islands carbon footprint (or whatever vogue environmental one-liners are in fashion at the moment). Then inducing people to not use their cars would be beneficial.
However if they just looking for more revenue and hiding behind the environmentalim banner then lets just raise the price of petrol. (although how any government who votes to build a massive incinerator with no thought of the cost and then try to claim to be green by suggesting a pollution tax is beyond me).
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Greg – I happily concede the point that Guernsey doesn’t have a traffic problem, apart from at certain times of the day – that doesn’t mean we can’t look to make improvements though. I made a point earlier that an increased park and ride scheme at various locations on the island might help to ease congestion. I submit that, if appropriately managed and as part of a wider strategy, such a scheme would help to ease the traffic burden around those times – especially in and out of St Peter Port.
The Man – well written – what is needed is a wider strategy that involves smaller initiatives working together. A cycling scheme is one of them that might work, alongside park and ride etc. Of course it won’t work for everyone, but alongside other initiatives and accepting that some people still have to use the car at times, it would help reduce car use. As Lou pointed out, we all use the car unnecessarily at times.
Let’s face it, the car is here to stay (unless the States ban them) so what is needed are helpful inititatives to encourage reasonable use.
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Greg
P.S I comepletely agree on the buses BTW
And not just because i generally have a hairy moment with one every day (quite intimidating on a small road with nothing but a thin helmet to protect me!!)
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Greg
“why should tax breaks be given to those who can choose to cycle to work and not to those who can’t cycle to work? It seems a bit unfair to me.”
One could argue that the following reasons added up might justify a small tax break:
- the long term health benefits of cycling leading to less medical issues – unless you’re hit by a passing bus of course! :-)
- less wear on the roads from cyclists leading to less long term “wear and tear” repair costs
- if the States are really “keen to be green” a financial incentive encouraging this might be seen as a justifiable expense.
Finally, you suggest it would be unfair. I appreciate this point however how does one define unfair? Take a different example: could someone who is incapable of having children due to medical reasons argue that it’s “unfair” for those who can to be given maternity then family benefits? It’s difficult to find a completely equitable solution.
Unfortunately, most people require a positive incentive to change ingrained patterns of behaviour. Rightly or wrongly, one of the most effective of these methods is financial perks, hence the suggestion.
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Well said TL. I have a similar experience cycling in. It’s not bikes causing traffic tailbacks, it’s cars. I could fit three bikes into the same space as one car. It’s faster than driving, creates no noise, no pollution, and here at my place of work I do not take up a valuable parking place, thereby leaving it for someone who is either less mobile than me or comes from further away.
I hope every day as I overtake the long stream of cars from the Bouet traffic lights all the way back beyond the college of FE that some of them might look at me and think “you know, I could get into work faster if I cycled. Maybe I’ll have a go.”
If anyone doubts how much time it saves, I counted this morning and I overtook 53 cars in just one queue.
Cycle lanes are indeed a waste of time. The so-called “cycle lane” between the Halfway and town is in fact just a strip of pavement with a white line painted on. Cyclists using it are supposed to give way to traffic turning on or off the Esplanade, and weave through pedestrians using the same strip of pavement. Along one section the sea wall is only a couple of feet high and the pavement only around five feet wide. Imagine a pedestrian competing with a cyclist coming each way there! Any collision would mean someone being knocked over the sea wall and way down onto the rocks of Bellegrave bay. All the cycle path does is to encourage the odd idiotic motorist to shout abuse at cyclists quite correctly using the road – I’ve had comments like “get off the road” hurled at me more than once, and even had a white van driver intentionally shave so close past me that he hit me. His explanation when I caught up with him? An unapologetic “you shouldn’t have been on the road…”
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Bring in MOT’S,that would get rid of a lot of never serviced rubbish off the road. if the states charged say £60 for the test and it failed on its emissions or any other faults then it’s off the road until it is repaired, if it is retested within a fortnight it is free.this will also stop all the modifications ie removing the catylst converters off the cars that were sold with them on in the first place. Salt air eats our cars over here also.
Without mot your insurance is invalid,this is a sensible way to go instead of taxing people even more, poor get poorer rich get richer
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When ALL the politicians and civil servants of this island start walking or riding cycles only then should the rest of us follow suit.
Oh and by the way small cheap cars often produce more pollution than large vehicles with sophisticated fuel management and exhaust systems which are there because the owners have paid high prices for these vehicles, please lets not have the usual guernsey knee jerk reaction to this announcement, lets find out from another expensive consultant company whether we should be taxing the motorist yet again.
Whislt on the subject of pollution are to to tax boats ? I’ll bet not ! The Commodore ships? horses ? they polute and you don’t have to pick up behind them.
Think about it ..
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Paul, those are fair comments. But it would be interesting to see how the States would implement it, and following the example of paid parking we could look forward to it being introduced in 2019?
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The Man, i also agree with your comments. It would be good for the States to actually set out thier agenda here. Are they wishing to really become more green, or are they looking to raise revenue?
As another suggestion, I would raise the level of parking fines. I get fed up of seeing people with multiple tickets in the Press who are obviously just too lazy to find a proper parking space.
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One way to reduce the number of cars on the road?
Introduce kerside recycling. That would easily do away with, what, 10,000 car journeys a week (merely a guesstimate)?
With all these conflicting proposals and decisions from the States, it’s no wonder most of us simply do as we please…
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TL.so it’you who illegally overtakes a stationary line of cars in the mornings please contact the police with your details ,and although you didnt say as much i,m sure you’re the one who suddenly appears from behind a line of cars on my side of the road going up the grange or overtakes on the inside (nothing funnier than seeing a door opened on a cyclist except that it damages the car ) and if you want to see the vast majority of cyclists in cars then wait for a rainy day when all of this eco rubbish goes right out the window ,when like me you pay tax to be on the road (fuel tax) then you can use it ,until then get out of my way and stop delaying me for however short a time!!
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Guernsey does NOT have a traffice problem. Try visiting other places outside the island and see for yourselves!
I don’t know the answer on how to reduce car usage but what I do know is why on earth is the Environment bringing this up now. The Island is going through a recession, people have lost their jobs and a lot of people are struggling to pay their mortgage. The poorer people have older cars yes but how on earth are they going to afford more environmentally friendly cars. Only the well off can do that! Also I am not convinced on the whole green thing. What about the planes overhead and what about that INCINERATOR.
Come on you deputies stand up for us, we all know that it is about the money but please do not target people who cannot afford it. We are a small business and there is no way on this earth that we will be able to afford the extra cost on our vans. We are expected to keep cost down but if this tax is approved look out – more people will loose their jobs and some businesses will go under.
Guernsey public do you think it is time for another march (remember Belgrave Bay) if this awful tax is approved. They must want us all to go on benefits as before long our wages won’t cover our basis living expenses. My next job is contact my deputies. Please do the same.
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Hang on everyone!
This isn’t about car usage vs buses vs legging it vs unessesary journies etc. Its about managing car usage now and reducing CO2 emissions from road vehicles. Is it not?
That means punitive taxes against the most polluting (as I posted earlier). Simple as that. Which I’m all for by the way.
And do you know which passenger vehicles on our roads produce the most CO2 per km? The buses. I estimate it must be in the 800 to 1000 g/km or 10 Ford Fiesta Eco’s if you prefer.
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Phil. Your quote; “I pay my tobacco duty at the till each time I buy some cigarettes, that doesn’t give me the right to smoke anywhere I choose does it?”
I have no wish to enter into a debate with you, as we are obviously inhabiting different planets, but what is the logic behind that statement? I fail to see the link.
Of course you may not smoke anywhere you choose. There are quite rightly laws in place to prevent you from doing so. I don’t care whether you smoke or not. Its your choice and your right. In common with other motorists, I may choose to drive my car on any public highway subject to certain laws. I don’t care whether you like me driving my car or not. Its my choice and my right.
Petrol up to £10 a gallon? Not going to happen. If the price of petrol went up by any significant amount, then it would only serve to make the less well off amongst us even less well off.
This is simply another scam by the States to increase the tax take. It has nothing to do with the myth of global warming.
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What I can’t understand is this almost maddening attempt to change the world.
We had millions of years ago an Ice age, we had the dinosaurs, we had the floods, we had all sorts of things, and it was all evolution
Today they want to frighten people into believing the world is doomed if nothing is done.
Yet the world revolves once a day giving us (Day and Night, travels long distances the returns taking a year to do so , thus creating the four seasons. and in all this the earth is travelling at over 65,000MPN.
How in the world has it time to gather all these scientists tell us it gathers,
Is it sort of lingering there just to trap us?
I think I would like better explanations before I listen to some of the clap.-trap from these over paid people with nothing better to do that to frighten people.
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yes there should be environmental initiatives, putting tax on new purchases is won’t reduce the use of the car, it is a one of tax and not fair on people who only use their cars a little. if you are going to have a purchase tax, why not have it in relation to the amount of CO2 created by the production. then if you have to put up the tax on fuel. a litre of fuel burnt will produce the same amount of CO2, whether in a small car or a Chelsea tractor. if the tax is on fuel those who need a car for some journeys but use alternatives when they can will be rewarded. stick it on a tax on purchase and you might as well use the car to the max to so you get most for your taxes.
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Why aren’t Environment targeting the bigger problem.
More fuel is burnt in buildings, why not put an environmental tax on the heating fuel, ensuring that the CO2 produced by the power station is taken into consideration when looking at electricity. use the money raised to offer grants to insulate homes. the more people insulate the more they will save. Yes the states will have to find the money to kick start the grants.
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taken from the telegraph article re:- UN summit on global warming 22.09.09
I quote,
“China and the US each account for about 20 per cent of all the world’s greenhouse gas pollution created when coal, natural gas or oil are burned. The European Union is next, generating 14 per cent, followed by Russia and India, which each account for 5 per cent”.
can enviroment please supply figures on how much our little island contributes to the destruction of the world as we know it,
also do they have any plans to tax airplanes which also produce co2 ?
average figures for short haul flights
approx 330-460 gm/km
long haul flights 210-330 gm/km
i fear not, the motorist is the easy target yet again
plus how could they explain to our chief minister and the few that all this jetting around the world is causing more harm than your
average guern driving to work,
whilst i agree that we can all do our bit to save energy PLEASE do not use that old chesnut
‘the polluter pays’
unless the factories that make batteries for
electric cars pay
unless the foundries who make copper wire for electric cars pay
unless the power stations who produce power so that you can charge the batteries in your non polluting car
the list could go and on
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Cycling is a great idea, until it rains or the temperature drops then everybody jumps into their vehicles. that rain we had a few days ago. the roads were chocka with cars and no cyclists. The Frailties of mankind I’m afraid. Increase petrol to get the 4 x 4′s off the roads, might work, but if they can afford big cars, then they should be able to pay for the petrol. It would be the low wage earner who would suffer. Go by bus to work, this is the intended way the States want you to go. As someone already stated, the buses do not always go where you want to. Increase in buses would work, but until the States remove that umbilical cord that this bus service has to the States treasury, or replace the bus company with a more viable & cost effected company, this idea is going nowhere. As a lot of you have said, the car is here to stay, so why instead of fighting the problem, work with it. Some of you commented about paid parking and why the States have not introduced it, as this would go a long way to reduce cars on the road. The present system as past by the States is the most undemocratic, violates human right, & if introduced, The States would be in the courts for years to come. Why don’t the State do as they were supposed to do, & build a multi-story car park on North Plantation, tell all car users that they will have to pay for it, build another in the old Odeon car park, and one down by the Half moon, on the condition that the money raised will go towards car parking. I think if people are informed sufficiently on the reasons why, & everything is transparent, this would be the best way forward. This way everybody pays the same & would be a fantastic boost to the town.
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I have a so called diesel gas guzzler and I have done 6000 miles in a year and half. Some of that mileage done off island.
So I think my pollution contribution is less than some much smaller cars.
There is no such thing as a low emission vehicle. It takes earths resources to build and deliver a car to its owner and as for electric….where does that come from???
If everyone replaced their car with a tin box on wheels who much will that cost the earth. It’s generally accepted that’s it better to recycle so with cars. Its better to keep your old car well maintained than go out and pay the latest and greatest eco-car.
The only fair eco-tax is on usage so keep any increases to fuel and those will efficient cars will pay less.
Just don’t try to tax us out of our cars, it will never work.
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Lets pick on the motorist yet again,does anyone believe that the extra money proposed to be ripped out of our wallets will be used for green issues,its a black hole filler,stealth tax,daylight robbery more like.
If the environment dept are serious about carbon emissions let everyone who wants solar panels and windmills have them, that would make an instant differance.Without anybody getting ripped off yet again by our money grabing states depts,to waste on things we dont want or need.
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arapaho – I think that you need to read your Highway Code, my friend. There is nothing illegal about overtaking stationary cars. I am doing you a favour, because if I drove I would leave 20 minutes earlier and be ahead of you in the queue, and then you would miss another phase of the lights and be even later for work. And when every other cyclist does that as well…
I think you really need to see someone about those anger issues. You laugh at personal injury? How low does your self esteem have to be in order to feel better in the world when another person gets injured?
And no, you will never see me undertaking cars. That is suicidal. There are good reasons why I spent 5 years commuting perfectly safely in central London. That is because I respect other roads users.
And as for the non-existent road tax, I pay my taxes thank you. Your fuel duty gives you no extra rights.
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TL. suggest you read highway code rule 167 if you cant read here it is “DO NOT OVERTAKE where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works ” and no you dont pay to be on the road on a cycle , thats the whole point and yes cycles DO hold up the traffic, no need to thank me thats a matter for you and the taxman and i dont arrive at work ,i drive all day for a living ,thats how i know these things and perhaps commuting in london might be just the thing for you , one less cycle in guernsey n’est pas.
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Yet another stupid idea from those idiots at the states. Unless of course they will only charge the commuters that drive to all those offices in Town, then that will be ok.
Don’t forget if that increase in fuel is charged to all road vehicles, then all your groceries and deliveries of goods, services private companies such as builders, etc will at least double to cover this extra cost.
I would also predict a huge increase in fuel thefts as well and people wanting wage rises to cover this. The motor industry is already suffering, it does not need another knife in the back.
As a self employed person, if the petrol goes up to more then £6 a gallon then I would be better off staying home and claiming dole money unless they will refund me this extra tax and I think I speak for other self employed here also.
Maybe I should move to the Isle of Man at least it’s cheaper to live there and has much cheaper ferry trips to the mainland.
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I will start by declaring my interests in this debate. I don’t drive, I have never held a driving licence and I don’t own a car. Unfortunately for the States of Guernsey neither do I smoke or drink alcohol and therefore pay no tax in this way.
Having read the consultation paper it is not clear to me what the policy is trying to achieve. It seems to be about reducing emissions. However, though it concedes that diesel produces lower emissions than petrol it states that it doesn’t want petrol drivers switching to diesel if it only reduces emissions but doesn’t reduce the size of the vehicle.
So is the aim to reduce the number of cars, make them smaller and produce more revenue for Guernsey PLC? If so make it clear. Also, there is nothing in the document which explains what the impact on Guernsey will be if emissions are reduced. We could do with some statistics which show that our levels of pollution are rising and then we could measure the success of the policy in the future, if it is enacted. Are we trying to reduce emissions to clean the air in Guernsey or to reduce the impact of Global Warming?
If it is Global Warming perhaps our farmers could join in this process and breed smaller cows which produce less methane. I’m sure a project of such a nature would have as much impact on the Global Climate as reducing emissions from all the cars in Guernsey!
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arapaho – except that Rule 167 does not actually say that, does it? If you are going to quote a rule you need to do so in its entirety. The full wording of the rule means that it is ok to overtake queuing cars if you are not going to come into conflict with other road users. The only conflict I may cause is the jealousy of stationary drivers.
I don’t directly pay the fire service to look after my house but they will still do so and I pay for it through taxes. Neither of us directly pay for the roads to be fixed, we both pay indirectly through taxes. You happen to pay more fuel duty as you seem to drive more. Different issue.
Michael LL makes a good point, unless there is to be a complicated scheme full of exemptions for commercial vehicles and other uses of the car necessary to enable the island to function then the proposals could have unintended effects. Which is why paid parking for long stay mid-week parking is a good idea as it encourages people to car share or use other methods of getting to work.
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Let’s just compare TL and arapaho here. It’s quite instructive.
arapaho drives his car, creating pollution, noise, taking up road space and (when he parks) parking space. He thinks it is funny to joke about hitting cyclists, and that cyclists should get out of his way because they don’t pay (non existent) road tax. [Note to self here: if I drive a Range Rover and thereby burn twice as much petrol as arapaho, does that give me the right to order him and other lesser mortals out of the way as I'm paying more fuel tax?]
TL cycles around, creating no pollution or noise, and freeing up a parking place for someone else. He overtakes cars queueing at the lights. He also does not pay (non existent) road tax.
Who’s helping the traffic, pollution, and environment problems in Guernsey the most?
Whose example would you like young people growing up in Guernsey and getting to the age when they are allowed to drive to follow?
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TL,you dont seem to be able to grasp a simple point, that is, as YOU yourself said that i pay more in fuel duty because i drive more and while i am following a cyclist or two, hogging the road ,then i am driving for even longer am i not ?more time driving ,equals more fuel burned,equals more co2 emissions, equals more expense geddit. meanwhile back to a vehicle driving down a clear road, with traffic on the other side when suddenly out pops yer man on bike ,on to my side ,this is in conflict with oncoming traffic, yes? it could be that he’s in a hurry to make as many motorists as he can jealous of his understanding of the law which to cyclists dosent exist ,this battle of wits will be terminated ,you,ve run out of ammunition !!
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Arapaho, are you seriously that thick?! Cycling is ten times better than driving a car, can’t you just over take the cyclist or two?
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Oh dear, arapaho. So are you now saying that if your twenty minute journey is delayed by 20 seconds, that it would be ecologically better if both the cyclist and you were in separate cars???
you said it was illegal to overtake queuing cars when it is not.
you said that you pay for the roads, when you do not (other than to the same extent that I do).
what part of your posts actually stands up to scrutiny?
and who said anything about overtaking cars in the face of oncoming traffic? That would be against the highway code and it is why I will happily wait in line if the road is too narrow to pass and will consciously choose a route that includes wide roads where the traffic jams are, so that I can overtake safely and without causing problems for others.
and as for hogging the road, it seems that it is you that thinks that he owns the road and has a preferential right to it. I am all for sharing the road space and being considerate of other road users.
But this little spat makes it look like there is a “them and us” war on the Guernsey roads between cyclists and car drivers when there isn’t. Thankfully, most drivers on these roads are considerate to all users, including cyclists. Probably because most drivers also cycle at various times or have friends or children that do so. It really is a great way to get around the island.
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Agreed with TL on everything on this one.
All onus is on the motorist to be reasonable. Just because you’re bigger and faster does not give you more rights to the road.
What’s the obsession with ‘getting places fast’ anyway? It’s Guernsey for Buddha’s sake.
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I think that’s the second time we’ve agreed on something Arnald. We must be more careful next time ;-)
James – loving your support
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TL + Arapaho, thanks for the amusing to and fro there. Although I don’t think that opening a door to catch a cyclist is the way forward, when a cyclist does finally come to grief skirting between traffic I doubt they will recognise that it’s their fault. They also won’t pay for any damage they cause.
Ok, so you improve the bus service or subsidise something using extra revenue from taxes on motor vehicles.
If these services that you offer are actually attractive to anyone then they won’t use their car and you will be sans money to pay for it…
As a general point, this is clearly just another revenue puller for the states and as with the rest of our “pollution tax” goes nowhere other than the inefficiencies of our glorious states.
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I admit it. I drive a 4 x 4. It is 10 years old and I can’t afford to buy another car right now, plus I do go to the mainland often and I would not like to drive on the motorways in a smaller car. I certainly couldn’t afford two cars, one for Guernsey and one for the UK. I have driven 4 x 4′s for 19 years, and I have lived in St. Peter’s for 12. I actually find driving a car which is high up an advantage in narrow lanes, when you are always trying to inch over yellow lines or peer over hedges. If I meet another car in the road, I ALWAYS reverse, on principle, because of the stereotype of being female and driving a 4 x 4. I have a dog, a large one (used to have two but sadly lost one of them a month ago) and my partner likes to fish so the old girl is often full to the gunnells with “stuff”. I used to ride horses myself, and am particulalry mindful of horseriders. I was well brought up, so I generally try to be courteous to other roadusers full stop. I work in town, in the finance industry, and although I have a car parking space at least a couple of times a week (if I am not going out straight from work, or doing the shopping) I catch the bus into town. It is convenient and I quite enjoy it. But call me cantankerous when I read these anti-driver rants and I just want to go out and rev “Auld Betty” up! I do have a bicycle myself, but I HATE cyclists on the roads; so many of them pick and choose which of the laws of the Highway Code they wish to use, and rowlocks to everyone else. You may say some car drivers do that as well, and I don’t disagree, but the difference is if I break driving laws, or ignore common sense in my car I may get a knock and/or be inconvenienced. A cyclist- different story and the car driver is publcily crucified. Just this morning, Friday 16 October, me and my fellow passengers on the number 4 bus cringed in horror as a cyclist overtaking the stationary bus in Queens Road was very nearly squished by a delivery van minding its own business travelling on his side of the road at a sedate speed. Some 12 years ago, after two cyclists thought it a huge laugh to chase my 14 week old puppy down a bridlepath (where I believe cycling is illegal?) and into the road I started to keep a note of everytime a cyclist broke the rules of the Highway Code whilst I was driving. That proved too difficult so I started to keep a note of every time a cyclist used a hand signal to indicate where he/she was going to turn, and also looked behind them before doing a manoeuver (can’t spell that word) in front of me. Since October 1999, in all the car journies I have made, eleven, yes eleven, cyclists have executed a hand signal before turning/stopping. And looking behind them before the M-word? None. Nil. Zip. Not one. Since 1999. Trust me, I keep records. So please, if you are trying to persuade me to give up using my car even more, don’t rant at me, don’t call me names, don’t brand me. Softly softly catchee monkey. Oh, not only do I drive a 4 x 4, but I orignally English, (only lived here 26 years), I smoke, work in the finance industry and I have a dog. A Rottweiler. I think that covers just about everyone’s prejudices!
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Well Well Well, I see the states want another pay rise.
Get a grip people, I have been at uni in London for 6 weeks, Guernsey doesn’t know what too much traffic is. and the petrol over here isn’t even as high as the States want to put it. I can tell you one thing, if those greedy idiot states members keep adding taxes like they do they can rest assured the £20,000 (plus) they have spend to send me to London will never be payed back in taxes cos it will be cheaper to live in London. I must say my car would fall into the bigger bracket but I only use it to get to work. As for the one car per household rule, amazing suggestion, my father is a postman and firefighter, so when your house is burning down and I have taken the car to work I hope you don’t blame the fire service because they could not get a full crew, it is after all an idea to have 1 car per family backed by you, or would you suggest he catch a bus or pay for a taxi to the fire station? the states would have to then pay for this and that would cost a bomb because taxi fares would go up because of the petrol increase.
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Ah, that old chesnut again, Adam. You obviously mean the 97% efficient States as identified by Tribal Helm.
To be honest, I don’t think that’s a bad percentage at all. Do you?
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Hepzibah,
You forgot to mention your horns!
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Hepzibah – you really are a social pariah aren’t you? I bet you don’t pick up after your dog either. ;-) [tongue firmly in cheek]
Seriously though, thanks for your post – it brightened my day!
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Hepzibah
You really need to stop trying to write whilst you drive.
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The States need to get real. Whatever 60,000 people do on a small island in the Channel will not make a jot of difference while China and the USA continue to pollute the world.
Level playing field I say !
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Nice one Chris, I agree with you.
The states think they are running a massive country which everyone in the world knows about. But we are just the minutest speck of a speck in the world. I bet more people in the world know where Madeira or Majorca is then little old us.
Our total emissions per week would be small compared to a small town in the UK, let alone China or the USA.
Same with our so called traffic problem the states go on about, which I don’t believe we have. If they bought this tax in it will probably only go to pay off the bill for the runway or something.
Sorry I probably got off the point a bit.
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Pauls link to the list of low-Co2-emission cars is very helpful.
On that list there are plenty of cars that can be used to commute in Guernsey. But many, if not most, of use will still need another car for moving families, pushchairs, trailers, going on holiday, in fact for our normal lives.
So that means we’ll likely have more cars than we do now. Eeerrr that’s not very clever is it?
And we could get onto the tiny fraction of Climate Change that is man-made, and the fraction of that which is produced by CO2 (3%), and the fraction of that that is produced by cars (3%) and the fraction of that which Guernsey can hope to reduce (zero).
There will be no significant action until the energy companies decide to take it. Start there, Mrs Tasker, and stop wasting our time.
E
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Of course, I hope there would be concessions for the elderly who need their cars, or are they going to be penalised because of their age as usual
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