TV licence is a tax and that’s why George will not pay it
Wednesday 27th January 2010, 2:29PM GMT.
TELLY licence rebel George Elkington wants his day in court.
After eight years’ viewing without a licence he has challenged TV Licensing to prosecute.
Mr Elkington, 59, said that he would use the case to establish that islanders should not have to pay a tax to the UK.
Using the UK’s Freedom of Information Act, he got HM Treasury to confirm that in 2006 the licence fee had been reclassified as a tax.
Mr Elkington said he did not use terrestrial services.
‘I have Sky and I never watch the BBC,’ he said. ‘I already pay for the Sky service, so it is unfair to pay any more. I am threatened with imprisonment, but I’m not worried,’ he said.
‘I just want to get my case heard. It’s all about the principle. I am a Guernsey citizen, and I should not have to pay a UK tax. The European Court of Justice made a ruling that no citizen of one state should be responsible for the public services of another.’
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The BBC should be a subscription service,then those that want it can pay for it.
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Good luck George!
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Great, has he thought of the consequences?
if he wins (which is unlikely) and the Guernsey courts refuse to enforce a penalty, then the BBC will simply stop transmitting here in the Channel Islands. Those that do not want (or cannot afford) Sky or Freesat will lose out.
Plus, I would not be surprised if Sky is obliged to only accept subscriptions from within the TV licence area, as a condition of having all of the BBC channels. Their website is clearly geared to the UK but does not say either way. I may be wrong on that but if that is the case, then Sky would have to cut off our supply to the BBC as well.
Well done George!!
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How can he prove he does not watch BBC, a lot of people have Sky but tend to flick over to other channels on occassions, is this another want to be part of the UK but dont want to pay???
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I am totaly with you George, if the TV licence has been reclassified as a UK tax, then people living in the Channel Islands should not pay.
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Indeed it should be a subscription service but it’ll never happen. Give people a choice, heaven forbid! £142.50 is a ridiculous amount of money to fork out for the tripe they peddle in the name of entertainment….
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I’m sorry but I really hope George loses and loses badly. All this clap-trap about no taxation without representation is just a smoke-screen for people not believing they should pay for television. The BBC has for coming to 100 years provided an invaluable service to the British Isles and the crown dependency’s. The tax maybe British but we do get representation both through tv,radio and internet and those that disagree just do not understand the concept of international linkage. We as the Channel Islands do not have the resources to set up (or buy in) tv. Can you just imagine the horror of a 24hr rolling news version of Channel TV, we’d all be paying to get current tv back in 5seconds let alone 5 minutes.
As for George saying he does not watch/listen to any of the BBC channels well there again he is wrong.
BBC’s Worldwide arm mean that he will have had some interaction with the BBC – unless of course he listens to no radio, watches no tv, does not use the internet, reads no daily newspaper and just sits and reads published books all day possible but unlikely.
George says he has SKY and so should not have to pay twice well so what about all the people who don’t. Information and media is not just for the elite that can afford it (BTW yes I do have SKY also, so yes I pay twice).
To George I say this plead poverty, plead that you do not have a tv but please do not say that you do not benefit from the BBC!!!
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George is missing a point here. The TV licence does not simply support terrestrial BBC viewing. The licence fee funds all BBC productions and services, including those accessed via Sky satellites, the radio, and the internet.
I suspect George thinks Channel Islanders should be able to watch/listen to/use BBC services for free, whilst UK TV owners pay for it on his behalf. Come on George, be reasonable.
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TL wrote “I would not be surprised if Sky is obliged to only accept subscriptions from within the TV licence area,”
What has the tv tax have to do with Sky ?
They have to work for a living ,so I’d doubt the fact a bunch of free loaders like the bbc not getting their ill gotten gains would stop Sky from selling their subscriptions .
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good luck George hope you win it is nice to see that you are doing something about it-we should NOT be paying tax to uk
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You have to have a licence to watch BBC on Sky.
Digital Terestrial can be controlled in the same way.
Come November, no problem at all.
Good on you George.
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No television is free, you pay for everything in one way or another, at least with the licence its open and above board.
Mr Elkington says he only watches Sky yet people who don’t have Sky pay for it, how?. Because every product and service advertised on Sky is paid for by the people who buy those products and services because the companies who advertise add the cost to them.
People who don’t have Sky have no choice, they pay because it’s in the price they pay for the products and services. Nothing’s free Mr Elkington, unless of coarse you get British Consular representation abroad, then it’s the British taxpayer who pays.
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Freeman said “What has the tv tax have to do with Sky ?
They have to work for a living ,so I’d doubt the fact a bunch of free loaders like the bbc not getting their ill gotten gains would stop Sky from selling their subscriptions . ”
My point was that I would expect (although I may be wrong) that Sky is only permitted to offer the full range of BBC channels within the TV licence area. Can you subscribe for Sky from France? Their website suggests not. If he wins and we are held to be outside the TV licence area then Sky may have to stop sending us the BBC channels – which represent 90% of what is worth watching on Sky.
He has no moral argument for this case, as he simply wants something for nothing.
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If he wins, in order to subsidise broadcasting, all the States will need to do is simply impose a TV licence tax locally, then send it’s proceeds to the UK. George won’t have a leg to stand on then.
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Lots of people seem to be missing my point,why should I pay for the BBC when I dont want them?
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George,
The BBC produce some of the best television ever.
This costs money. Isnt it nice to watch TV without adverts? You are grasping on to straws so as not to pay. Nothing is free, and I thinks most people dont mind paying. If people dont pay then the ones that do, have to pay more! You may not watch BBC, but at least you can get some satisfaction that you are contributing towards your fellow islanders recieving this excellent service. Put your hand in your pocket and stop being selfish. Anyway I dont believe you never watch it!
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Has Mr Elkington considered who provides BBC Radio Guernsey and how that’s funded?? Imagine only having Island FM… *shudders*
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Good luck george! The tv licence allows us to use our own equipment, the quality of the service they provide or don’t provide is irrelevant. Despite the arguments of the BBC employed people above, there is nothing wrong with the free service offered by Channel TV, I would argue it is far superior to that offered by the local over staffed BBC studio. Same with radio. This is 2010 and the user should be able to choose. Those who argue it is fair that we pay this UK tax should remember that the majority of the fee goes to fund services that we cannot access.
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TL
Have you never been to France/Spain/Portugal etc? Sky users in those countries (plus many others) have full access to the BBC so your assumptions are incorrect.
The best option is to simply not buy the licence, the detector people have no power to come into your house, just tell them where to go.
Gsybloke
You have no concept of the phrase “taxation without representation” do you?
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Its an unpleasant indirect tax that sends several hundred poor people to prison every year in the British Isles.
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i am totally failing to understand the argument of coco, amongst others:
“it is nice to see that you are doing something about it-we should NOT be paying tax to uk”
The BBC is funded by the British government through tax raised from the licence fee. We have the benefit of this service, so why should we not be paying a tax to the UK for this service, as other UK citizens do?
the dire alternative, as gsybloke has well pointed out, would be to pay a channel islands licence fee to fund an insufferable abundance of channel report, puffins plaice, and old muratti highlights..
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you make me laugh you lot…here is a man who instead of just sitting there and moaning and groaning HE is doing something about what he thinks is right,at least he has the backbone to follow it through.Weather he is proven right or rong good on him for doing something about it.
I bet if he was right you lot will be very quick to stop paying your tv licence
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Fair enough if George never listens to BBC radio, or never uses BBC.co.uk, and always turns off any BBC created material when he’s watching TV via a satellite signal, then he shouldn’t have to pay the licence fee. (And do you really never use any BBC services, George?)
But all this nonsense about it being classified a tax is just pure rubbish. If you use any BBC content, then you deserve to pay for it. It doesn’t matter if in the UK it’s now called a tax.
TL: You can subscribe to SKY in areas outside the TV licence area.
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thanks for correcting me – I admitted I was just speculating on that point.
but the main point is that we get the benefit and so should pay – and if we don’t like paying it direct to the UK then we will end up paying it indirectly via the States.
there are better fights to be had against UK influence.
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Greg
What are you talking about? It’s not nonsense about it being classified as a tax, it’s fact!!
I use lots of media providers without having to pay for them, why should the BBC be any different? It’s always worth avoiding a tax if at all possible (cue Arnald!!).
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on our estate we have one box and loads of holes drilled thru the wall to al lthe neighbours house. Don’t pay nuffin to the States and get paid benefit to stay in bed. Well good life. who wants to work me dad didn’t. That wot me gran said.
Shameless we is
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I have the utmost respect for George. I too have considered researching the licence fee position in the Bailiwick because like some who have commented I simply wanted the choice to use BBC services on my television set, or not.
I find the BBC rather bland at times and they have made some particularly poorly researched and sensationalist anti-channel Island programmes in the past. It annoys me to think that the channel-islands have helped fund these programmes. There are a lot of undeserving rude “entertainers” on the BBC pay roll that frankly do not deserve the six figure sums they receive from the BBC.
What can I do if i don’t agree with providing financial support for things i stand firmly against?
I have a choice either to give up receiving every broadcast from every television station in the world. Or shut up and carry on funding the BBC.
That is not right.
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Victor Hugo
C/I should not pay tax to the uk.Or maybe you think we should! Would you be so supporting if we had to pay VAT or any other kind of tax to the uk. I DONT THINK SO
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I think I should just mention, you no longer need a television licence to listen to the radio, it now only applies to live television.
Also you are allowed to watch BBC programs using iplayer if you DO NOT have a licence AS LONG as you watch them after they have been broadcast.
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What sort of entertainment do you watch, Cheesed Off.
The BBC, in my opinion provide some of the best programs on the airwaves. Current affairs with programs like, News night, Question time, Panorama. Comedy, Live at the Apollo, Have I got News For You, QI,Rock and chips,the BBC brought us only fools and Horses. Then there is all the documentaries, nature programs. The Open University. You have only got to check the BBC Iplayer to realise the list goes on and on. Then there is all the radio programs, BBC Guernsey Radio is especially important for Guernsey, it is the only media apart from the Guernsey Press that gives detailed coverage to local current affairs very often putting our Politicians on the spot, involving the general public and giving us a chance to have a say on many important issues. If you thats all tripe, Cheesed Off I think your mind must be a cultural desert.
I hope George Elkington loses on this, not because I think a licence fee is the best way to fund BBC or because I don’t agree with him over his stance on taxation without representation, but because we could lose too much if he wins and people decide they are not going to pay there licence fee and the Beeb flick the switch to off.
All for sake of one Bee in his bonnet over what amounts to less than 50p per day.
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Her Majesty’s government regards the license fee as being a tax IN THE UK.
Mt Elkington rightly points out that he doesn’t live in the UK, and therefore shouldn’t be subject to a UK tax.
But since he isn’t in the UK he isn’t bound by the UK definition either ….. surely the States of Guernsey definition of the license fee is the one that applies.
Has he bothered to ask them what they think ? If the States think it ISN’T a tax in Guernsey then case closed …..
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CM
You’re entitled to your opinion as am I, I’m with AC on this one. BBC = BLAND Broadcasting Corporation….
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CM
Personally I’m not ‘into’ the current affairs programmes you have mentioned, they’re just not my cup of tea. And yes the BBC brought us Only Fools and Horses which I agree was a first class sitcom. Sadly there has been nothing nearly half as watchable since but again that’s MY opnion.
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Coco – Of course i would not support paying VAT to the UK, as we would not directly benefit from what this revenue was spent on. The difference, and the point that you have completely missed, is that we DO feel the benefits of the BBC, just as any UK citizen does. Several people have made valid points that support this above.
Why do you think that we, as Channel Islanders using an exported service that UK citizens fund, should be exempt from also paying for it?
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TL wrote “My point was that I would expect (although I may be wrong) that Sky is only permitted to offer the full range of BBC channels within the TV licence area.”
Ah that’s where you’re getting confused,the only bbc channels Sky offer are the UKTV pay channels ,the bbc badged channels are nothing to do with Sky ,the bbc pay Sky so they can be on the listings on the Skybox’s tv guide .The bbc’s channels can be received by any satellite receiver as far across Europe as the satellite footprint covers ,looks like all of France & as far east as Germany .
http://www.brymar.co.uk/info/Astra/astra_sky/astra_sky.html
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Phil, it didn’t used to be called a tax, and now it is. But what has really changed? Nothing but the description, so it’s a bit rich for all the whingers to start syaing “i’m not paying my licence fee anymore becuase it’s called a tax.” Pathetic really.
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Well Done George
The BBC is unremitting socialist garbage. It is NOT a public sector broadcaster, it is a socialist sector propaganda rag whose programmes bore me silly and bias is pitiful.
Take climate change. 100% bias for the last half decade. Despite the majority of the worlds scientists calling it junk science. Instead the BBC pump out garbage from Govt payroll crony scientists 24/7.
The BBC needs to force people under force of Law to pay for their crap biased drivel because nobody would pay for such garbage.
George for Island Minister of Broadcasting
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People have been paying for years for television they don’t watch through the extra cost on goods and services which pays for these things to be advertised on television. People who don’t even have televisions have to pay it so why should Sky subscribers be any different to everyone else.
Describing the licence as a tax was started by Rupert Murdoch because he wants to get rid of the BBC. Then through his media empire he can inflict upon Britain the kind of television that is inflicted upon the USA and Australia where the programs offer interludes in between the adverts.
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me an my husband behind u on this one even got it on facebook good luck
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Produced for the BBC, bought to you by UK TV GOLD, its only fools not paying their tv licence.
All right trigger, hows it going? Im alright Dave, wheres Del? Havent you heard? Hes been banged up. Oh yeah, whys that Dave? Stupid berk didnt pay his TV licence.
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Pete
Yeah, thats why Murdoch has pushed Sky + so much, the primary advantage of which is if you use right you’d never have to watch another advert in your life.
I havent seen an advert in 6 months thanks to Sky.
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Quote AC “What can I do if i don’t agree with providing financial support for things i stand firmly against?”
I think pretty much every Guernsey taxpayer or Social Security contributer can say that at some point in their lives AC…. :-)
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Yes ‘The Man” that’s what happen’s now but get rid of the BBC and it will all change. In the USA some TV companies are introducing set top box’s where the adverts cannot be screened out because of the advertisers complaining about people avoiding the adverts. Get rid of the Beeb and Sky will do that as quick as a flash.
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TV licensing whilst an unpleasant regressive tax pales into insignificance compared to the cruel raising of the age of state retirement.
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Good on you george.
To all the people that disagree with george, you carry on paying an english tax and stop slaging off the ones that dont wish too.
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Donkeys Life:
Have you not read anything on here? The TV Licence pays for the BBC – which we have access to (and I’m certain everyone at some stage watches/listens to a BBC production). It does not subsidise anything specific to the UK, so calling an English Tax is misleading.
You and George are simply the kind of person who wants something for nothing at the expense of others. If you’re proud of that, then it says more about you than it does about the licence fee.
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I easily get my 40 penceworth a day, even if it’s through secondary channels.
It may be an ideological bind for a few individuals, something always is – that’s life, but if Murdoch sponsored destruction of the license fee (notwithstanding some of the broader issues of the BBC’s remit. I can see the argument about its commercial arm etc) ushers in subscription only, then we will all lose a cheap, highly-regarded public service.
While we’re on the subject, why do people insist on saying that it peddles socialism? How? Where? Who?
Have I missed something?
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Pete
No you wont
Because if Sky did that, people would flood to Virgin, BT or Tiscali, we dont have those choices over here but in the uk they are starting to become more popular as genuine sky alternatives.
The BBC do not provide a dam, which is holding back everything that is bad about TV, as long as there is market competition it will even itself out.
Plus as TV technology evolves, so does the associated marketing. Product placement is rife already, and more and more programs are becoming “sponsored by…”, dont worry the evil marketing men will find a way to get their products in your face.
And anyhoo, advertising revenue usually makes for higher budget TV, which means better shows, so we cant complain too much.
I think the Televivision side of BBC would be missed far less than people realise (the radio service however is a different story). I cant remember a single thing I have watched on there in the last year except for the odd sporting event which I could watch online if I didnt have BBC.
Some of the rubbish they produce is just dreadful.
Plus the fact that some of my hard earned cash goes to pay Steve Mcfaddens wages make me shudder…
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I didn’t realise I was living in the UK. Just shows what I know.
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I have not paid for a tv license for 6 years. They have never called round to check. If they could be bothered to do that then i would probably pay for one.
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As some on here have already commented Mr Elkington should be careful what he wishes for. For a number of years I have read with Mr Elkington’s letters to the press. Unfortunately in my view Mr Elkington has completely failed to take into account the wider consequences of his actions.
So lets say that the BBC licence fee is a tax, and people in the Channel Islands dont have to pay – tremendous. We can all be free riders and get the BBC TV channels on satellite anyway. Plus we can tune into Radio 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc etc. This is great isn’t it. All of these services for free!
Plus those lovely people in the UK from the OAPs, to single mums, council estates the length and breadth of the country – (compare our GDP/ head with the UK) can also pay for BBC Radio Guernsey and BBC Radio Jersey and the regional news opt outs from the studios in the South West. Lets rewind this to see if I have got this right, George is perfectly happy for the Channel Islands to get these regional services but we dont have to pay for it? We dont have to because a less affluent society can subsidise it for us?
If I were in the UK, or even at the BBC I would be wondering why are we providing this service to the Channel Islands? Mr ELkington and some of his supporters on this thread may not be aware of the situation in the Isle of Man. THey have a website like us but I believe no local radio station along the lines of BBC Radio Guernsey or BBC Radio Jersey. And they pay the BBC licence fee. Unsurprisingly IoM harp on about the free-riders in the Channel Islands already and say its not fair, why cant we have that as well?
In my mind it is pretty obvious that should Mr Elkington win his case then we will not have any BBC regional services at all. Is £142/yr (if that is what the figure is) too much of a price for regional service we get? Would we get the existing radio and TV coverage from just a population of 60,000? Probably not?
Mr Elkington’s gripe is really more fundamental than semantics about whether the annual BBC licence fee is a tax or a fee. It really goes to the heart of how Public Service Broadcasting (whose purpose is to inform, educate and entertain citizens) is provided. Of course there will always be some who say that they do not consume any of the BBC’s services and against that there is a balance to be struck to ensure the mechanism for collecting monies to fund the PSB obligation in an effective way.
Mr Elkington may well win and save himself £142 but he will have opened the flood gates for everyone else to stop paying. The law of unintended consequences however may well mean that as Channel Islanders we will lose our local BBC services. Is that really what we want?
Jack
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The classification of the licence fee as a Tax came from the Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott in a section of a speech he made about 3 years ago in the House of Commons. It was at that time I took the matter up after that speech with the Law officers and was given an assurance that when time allowed they would investigate the valididity of what I was saying about the Licence fee and the fact that we are not subject to UK taxes which is a hugely important constitutional point. Now while it is not for me as an elected member of the States to encourage anyone to break the law, I am of the opinion that important constitutional points should not go unchallenged. It would be interesting to see how a Guernsey Court can force islanders to pay a UK tax.
I am quite happy to subscribe to the BBC but it should not be wrapped up as a television viewing tax, which is what it is. One other thing is that OUR States have never taken a decision on this licence tax or fee as it once was, back in the mists of time after the German occupation the agreement was made between senior States officials and UK officials that Guernsey would be covered by the broadcasting act but it was most certainly not a decision by the States of Guernsey. My view is that this subject should be a matter of debate in our parliament, certainly on the principle that we DO NOT pay UK taxes. Also under the digital switch over we will not be receiving the full amount of services so the level of any charge for these services should be reviewed.
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Truth Man.
HM Treasury confirms it is a tax,yes I have read this,have YOU.
As for wanting something for nothing I pay my way in this ISLAND, not in the UK.
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Truth Man – please can you answer a question for me?
I understand that you do not wish to pay for the BBC – does that mean that you dont want BBC Radio Guernsey and the TV opt outs for the regional news bulletins on BBC SOuth West? Simply yes or no, you cant have it both ways and through the licence fee you are paying (probably subsidised) for these services.
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Well said Dave I feel sorry for people who live in the UK as the poor are crippled by indirect taxation and the rich now eat off gold platters.
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Donkey’s Life:
So, just to clarify: You never, ever, use BBC’s services? This includes radio, internet, and TV (even if you happen to watch it via a Satellite)?
If you do, I refer you back to my previous post about wanting something for nothing.
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Jack:
Er, no, you’ve got it completely the wrong way around. Please re-read my posts, and you will see that in fact I am in support of the BBC and am more than happy to pay the licence fee. I’m not sure how you’ve gained the impression that I don’t want to pay for the BBC!
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i agree,, why should we have to pay an ENGLISH tax, when for a fact we have nothing to do with them,,,, and what about after it all gets switched over
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Question to all the folk not wanting to pay their license fee….if the UK re-classified it as a “fee” and not a “tax”, would you pay?
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@andy the rich do not eat off gold platters they will come off worse with the new tax law
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Samantha:
“We have nothing to do with them” Are you kidding me?!?!
The UK has political influence over here (like it or not), financial influence (like it or not), legal influence (actually, legal control!), we speak their language, we use their currency with our own pictures on it, etc etc, blah blah blah.
Oh, and to link the point back to this thread… We watch their TV shows!!!!!!
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Greg – great comment. Easily the best so far on this ridiculous subject.
Personally I find it hard to believe that Mr Elkington doesn’t watch at least some BBC. Surely Mrs Elkington must watch Strictly?? It’ll be lonely around that watercooler later this summer when everyone else is discussing the World Cup….
The semantics of whether it is a tax or not are irrelevant anyway, quite simply, the Communications Act, 2003 says that any address within the Crown Dependencies with a television capable of receiving live television programmes must have a license. The sooner Mr Elkington is prosecuted, the sooner we can get back to the serious business of nose piercings.
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Truth man
time to go independant there TV shows are crap..there goverment have stuffed up there own country..and us guerns have our own laguage eh cor blymy eh
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I used to listen to BBC radio Guernsey all the time.
I listen less and less as time goes by and it gets more and more religous.
Maybe the church could fund it.
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I take it none of you complainers ever watch Channel 4 ( and e4 and More 4 )
because it’s not just the BBC that gets license fee/tax money you know ….
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You mean you get TV in Guernsey that does not have all the irritating commercial advertising that the rest of us in the world have to put up with?! If so, that….really is special! Cherish it while you can!!
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BBC produces some of the best programs ever and I love watching it. We should keep paying it whatever it is called, as if we don’t we could lose it altogether. If the States charged you a fee instead, you could pay even more, as they could not administer the service (sending out of licenses) for free.
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Wot Truth Man says
In addition I’d be keen know how the TV-puddle martyrs rationalise paying UK airport tax on their flights to UK airports.
Politicians are on seriously sticky ground here. The phone-in being well used by all of them to promote their policies and answer questions – funded by the licence fee.
This ‘debate’ is just silly.
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Nice post Mr Inder. But this forum likes to make the debate silly.
I don’t live too far from the prison so perhaps Mr Elkington will be a neighbour soon enough, especially as he has admitted to not having the licence for the past 8 years…. I wonder if the money he has saved from non-payment of his licence fee will be enough for the fine?
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The issue in 2010 is that the user should be able to choose what they pay for. This is a tax on our ability to use our own equipment. I do not watch or listen to BBC but I choose to pay for Sky as I am guaranteed top quality reception on the programmes I want to watch. As far as BBC guernsey is concerned why does a population of 60,000 need 2 tv networks and 2 radio stations, Island Fm would pick up any essential broadcasting as part of their licencing agreement.
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Neil
It’s quite simple really, one has the choice whether to pay the airport tax or not i.e. if you don’t want to pay it don’t fly to the UK.
The same choice doesn’t exist with the TV tax.
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Phil:
I believe your comparison adds weight to Neil’s argument…
= If you don’t want to pay airport tax, do not fly.
= If you don’t want to pay for a TV licence do not use a TV.
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ok so if you live on the coast of France and happen to receive the BBC are you liable to pay the fee?
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Paul, the issue here is nothing to do with the user paying for what they want. The issue here is a load of tight-wads claiming they won’t pay for their BBC coverage because some civil servant in the UK has changed the wording from “fee” to “tax”.
I actually have sympathy for the hypothetical arguement that if you do not watch/listen/read any BBC output then you shouldn’t be forced to pay for it. However, I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone who has a TV or radio never accesses any BBC content.
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Paul – there are other examples of people having to pay a fee to use their own equipment: vehicle excise duty in the UK (no longer here of course, but it does not invalidate the principle), local rates, to name just two.
I think that the BBC provides an amazing service and one that I always miss when abroad.
These arguments about choice apply in the UK too and get little sympathy there either. But that is not the point of George’s defence. The only point for us is whether we should pay a fee to the UK. In this instance, given that we get a direct benefit, I think that the answer is yes.
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Truth Man
The key difference is that there is no option but to pay the TV tax whether one uses the BBC or not.
If I use my TV for watching DVDs and playing computer games, why should I pay the BBC for the privilege?
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Paul – no. If you live in France you do not have to pay the UK and Crown Dependencies TV license tax. Because unlike Guernsey, France is not named in the Communications Act, 2003 which is the law that requires people with televisions to pay a tax. Besides, you’re already paying the French equivalent!!
Phil – you only need a TV license if you are able to receive live TV transmissions. If you have no aerial, nor satellite, or internet connection then you don’t need to pay the tax.
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Phil,
You don’t need a TV licence to watch DVDs and play computer games, only to receive and decode broadcast TV signals. It’s not required to use a TV for any other purpose, e.g. to watch TV you have previously recorded (as long as you had a licence when you recorded it) to watch DVDs or to watch iPlayer.
The TV licence pays for a public service broadcaster which sets the bar for commercial stations to match. If you watch TV, whether it’s the BBC or not, you have your licence fee to thank for the quality of the programming. If the BBC wasn’t there, the commercial stations would just churn out huge volumes of the cheapest dross they could get away with in order to maximise their profit margins.
You might say that won’t happen because British production would have to compete with imports from North Amercica. But bear in mind that the standard of their TV is partly pegged to growing exports from BBC Worldwide…
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Student Bob – so just because I have an internet connections that creates the obligation to pay TV tax? It gets more ridiculous the more I hear about it!!
I know two separate people over here (one a teacher, one a journalist) who genuinely don’t own a television, however both of them do have an internet connection. Could they be hauled before the courts for not paying TV tax?
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Maybe Radio Caroline should get a share of the TV tax too?
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There appears to be an answer already, a number of people have already stated that they do not have a TV licence and haven’t for a number of years without prosecution which means the law is not valid. therefore those who don’t want to pay shouldn’t and those that want to support the BBC do. The BBC will then decide wether the revenue generated is sufficient to justify the over staffed offices here and in Jersey.
After a very short time we would all forget the BBC and its excesses of Public expenditure, oh I forgot we endorse Public sector excesses here !
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Phil, it’s quite simple really. If you have the ability to watch live television programmes, you must have a license. Whether you watch them online or through satellite, freeview or digital TV is irrelevant.
So yes they could be prosecuted. Ignorance of the law is no defence. That said though, the fact that Mr Elkington warrants a report in the Press, and the popularity of this thread suggests that a little ignorance goes a l-o-n-g way….
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Paul – ” ok so if you live on the coast of France and happen to receive the BBC are you liable to pay the fee?”
No you’re not liable for the English TV licence but you are for the French one. Think it’s €116 for theirs, straight out of your rates. It’s opt out not opt in since they rightly assume most people have TV.
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“If the BBC wasn’t there, the commercial stations would just churn out huge volumes of the cheapest dross they could get away with in order to maximise their profit margins.”
Instead, they just churn out huge volumes of expensive dross!! :-)
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The Man, I did not say that the Beeb where a dam holding back everything is bad about TV. But comercial television companys in the UK know that they cannot get away with having the length of commercial breaks (as much as 8 minutes) that happen in the USA and Australia because people will watch the Beeb instead.
Advertising revenue is how commercial TV companys make their money, if one company did it they’d all follow suit because the advertisers would go to the company which gave their products the widest coverage. That is what they are paying for!.
As I have said before everyone pays for comercial TV, wether it be free to air or Sky. Everytime anybody buys something advertised on TV a part of the price includes something extra to cover advertising costs. Many more people who watch the BBC and not Sky are paying towards Sky than those who are watching Sky and contributing to the BBC.
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@ Dave Jones
Are you really suggesting that you waste local tax payers money debating whether or not the TV licence fee is a tax?
Please use your time more efficiently sorting out some of the more important island issues.
The BBC provides an excellent service and also employs local people.
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Student Bob
In that case the law is quite frankly pathetic, prosecuting people for having an internet connection when they have no intention whatsoever of using it to watch TV.
If the BBC is as popular as it thinks it is, why hasn’t it got the confidence to go commercial and either a) charge a subscription or b) accept advertising? Might it be because hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of people would choose not to pay £150 ish a year to use their services?
Paul – I agree with you (which is why I haven’t ever owned a licence).
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I agree with Phil,in these days of multi channel TV the BBCs position is untenable.At the very least they should reduce the number of channels they run and get the tax down to less than £50 a year.
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Hey Phil, I don’t make the rules. I’m just capable of reading them, unlike Dave Jones and Mr Elkington.
Personally, I’m quite happy to pay my TV license. I’m not personally aware of any country in the world where public service broadcasting is not subsidised by the Government in some way, either by a percentage from income tax, or a direct TV license tax.
There has been talk recently of news websites becoming pay-for-view or subscription – after all, why pay for the paper when you can see it online for free?? – would you still be contributing here if ThisisGuernsey.com was, say, 30p a day??
I think the BBC is great value for money. All this squabbling over semantics is just another example of the ‘gimme something for nothing’ Guernsey malaise.
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Of all the things that government dips it’s hand in my pocket for the TV licence is the only for which I know what I’m getting in return, I know I’ll use the service and at a cost less than buying a newspaper is good value for money.
For those whinging that they don’t use any of the services – poppycock. You may not use it as much as I but you still do so cough up and stop freeloading. I don’t have kids and haven’t seen a doctor in 30 years but I’m still paying for yours.
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I dont believe the BBC is good value for money,or give a good service,as far as Im concerned they are just empire building.Its a tax pure and simple,with new technology they can be run as a subscription service.
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The BBC is a bloated, inefficient British government disaster area. Those singing the BBC praises above who are employed by the BBC should at least have the decency to own up to their biased views.
Good luck George!!
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Student Bob is not employed by the BBC
Student Bob reckons that you hypocrites will quite happily be watching the World Cup on the BBC this summer and quietly appreciating the absence of commercial breaks.
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Not me Student Bob
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GGG
It is an important point of constitutional principle, we are not part of the United Kingdom or Great Britain and we are not subject to their taxes, it was not us that re-classified this fee as a tax, it was the British government and you may not care about that but I do. Would you also be amenable to the UK asking us to pay other taxes they deem fit we should pay, once you set a precedent no matter how small it is, then you have set the door ajar and if part of my job is not to defend the constitutional position of this island and its people then I am not sure what our role is as elected Deputies. You have to be continually vigilant if you wish to protect the rights and freedoms of our people and this subject has NEVER been debated in our States for the best part of 70 years perhaps it is time it was.
As for Student Bob I have read the rules and the rules of our constitution say that we do NOT pay UK taxes. Whether the BBC give good service or not is not the issue it is about taxes not service.
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Looking forward to watching World Cup on Sky HD and may even treat myself to 3D……my choice. BBC Sport = Rugby er no,cricket er no, live football er no…….curling yeah !!!
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i would willingly pay the fee for one of the BBC radio stations alone – fee, tax or whatever. if we lose the BBC, the best broadcasting provider in the world, on a hundred levels, we go back to the stone age and 24 / 7 jeremy kyle. Elkington and his cronies do not know they are born in this respect, blinded by their anti-uk tax dogma, and are another great example of locals wanting to pull up their drawbridges and hope the rest of the inferior world goes away. we are in guernsey and we are in the world – there is no divide and the BBC rightly knows that. mr elkington probably spends the equivalent of the licence fee in stamps to the press bangin on and on. What’s it feel like to be so mean-spirited?
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So where do these opinions from the BBC-haters come from? Surely not from the media outlets owned by multi-billionaires with clear political motivations to influence mass opinion and so effectively lobby democratically elected governments to legislate in their favour to further their megacorps’ profits?
It obviously works. Like lambs to the slaughter.
The BBC has many faults, but it is not owned by megalomainacs, it is not ‘state run’ and it has, in theory, clear channels of corporate accountability.
Can anyone please explain what they are supposed to biased for or against?
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Brilliant post by blah. Without the BBC our broadcasting choices here would be fit only for Chavs like Elkington
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Dave Jones – perhaps you need to read the Communications Act, 2003 which clearly states that the crown dependencies are liable for a TV licence? Whether it’s a tax or a fee is semantics, and completely irrelevant.
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Arnald, Student Bob et al
Dave Jones is 100% correct here, as long as it’s classed as a tax we should all refuse to pay it. Otherwise there’s a danger of it becoming the thin end of the wedge, i.e. “they didn’t object to paying TV tax so why don’t we charge them capital gains tax” or something similar.
Arnald – are ITV and Channel 4 owned by megalomaniacs now?
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Paul, if you are referring to the football world cup i don’t think Sky have the rights to any matches. So you best pay your TV licence/tax in time.
And for everyone else, please note that Channel 4 receives state funding, paid for by the licence fee/tax.
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Dave Jones, Phil et al (!):
To suggest this is the thin end of the wedge is just ridiculous. The TV licence pays for the BBC. That is all. 100% of that fee goes to the BBC, which we all benefit from.
UK taxes such as Phil mentions contribute towards UK projects/public services etc etc. NOT Guernsey based projects and public services.
The only suggestion and inference that can be drawn from us having to have TV licences is that we use the service, so we have to pay for it!
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Dave Jones, if you don’t ever pay UK taxes, does that mean you never fly to the UK and pay landing taxes?
I see where you are coming from with your “thin end of the wedge argument” but I don’t agree.
Perhaps all the tight folk on here who refuse to pay the “tax” but continue to use the BBC could send an £11 donation to the BBC each month, to cover the cost of their usage? This would bring them in line with the rest of us non-free loaders who appreciate watching BBC content such as Match of The Day, Formula 1, The Olympics, BBC News 24, David Attenborough’s excellent nature programmes and many many other top quality productions.
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Perhaps Deputy Jones could encourage our Home Minister to confirm if those not having a UK BBC licence are actually breaking Guernsey law and if they are wether they will be prosecuted or not and what level of fine would be likely. By keeping quiet it suggests that it is not against the law. The article in the press today strongly suggests that the Police are not interested in this and as such gives a strong argument to those not wishing to pay this tax as a precedent has been made.
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Student Bob
My point is that this was agreed by officials in 1948 or whenever NOT by the democratic parliament of this island, now I could even live with that but when it is OFFICALY changed from a licence fee to a viewing tax that is something completely different and it should not be enforced on our people without a decision on the matter by the States of Deliberation as that is the only legislature that can levy taxes on Guernsey people. It may be semantics to you but there is a world of difference between a fee and a tax.
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Truth Man
You keep using the term “Fee” it is no longer a fee it is a tax.
Greg
These landing taxes are levied against the airlines not the entire population of a jurisdiction.
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Dave Jones,
I am very surprised that you are serious about the States debating this issue. I note you are concerned that continuing to pay a tv license will “open the door ajar” to other UK taxes. Like what? Have any examples have arisen over the past 70 years? To me this is a complete non-issue, the pursuit of which is potentially damaging. I respect your willingness to contribute so publicly to these forums. I also do not doubt your sincerity in wishing to “protect the freedom and rights of our people”. However, I hope that you are able to find an alternative way of doing so. I am happy to pay my license fee and I do not feel my freedom or rights are threatened in any way.
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Adey You are entitled to your opinion, that is the point. Take out the BBC emmployed staff from the above posts and you can see that a large portion of posters agree with Dave Jones on this and in his position he is doing his job and representing the electorate. Wether you like BBC programming or not this is a tax and should be acknnowledged as such.Remove it then the island can choose wether to charge its citizens and hand the money over to the BBC, ITV or whoever else provides broadcasting services. How much are we talking about here anyway ? £142.50 x 25,000 = £3,500,000(ish) I would rather that stayed in Guernsey to help the black hole wouldn’t you?
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Dave J – okay, now I’m with you. For ideological reasons you don’t want to pay for your TV licence whilst it is classified as a tax. But you would have no problem with paying a States of Guernsey TV licence tax which is then paid in full and directly to the UK Government.
That seems fair to me, and a happy compromise for everyone!
Of course….. with our States, what are the chances of the TV licence being double what we pay now, whilst the profit is skimmed off the top to pay for an incinerator and a 100ft tall solid gold statue of El Presidente Trott….
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Paul – has anyone said they are employed by the BBC? I am certainly not and it is quite possible to support the BBC (and paying for it) without having an ulterior motive.
But you would be mistaken if you think that this forum is representative of the electorate. That is like saying that the Sunday Phone-in is representative.
The lack of enforcement here is well known, and yet only 60 homes are known to refuse to pay the licence fee. That suggests that the vast majority are perfectly happy to pay it, regardless of what it is called by HMRC.
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Truth man , you are wrong about 100% of the license fee going to the BBC – some also goes to Channel4 for its digital channels …………
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adey
I don’t know why you are surprised that I believe this issue ought to be the subject of a States debate, it goes to the very principle of our sovereignty over taxes. We simply cannot continue having something that has clearly been classified as a UK tax. The answer to your question is no, well at least not to my knowledge which would make this a first. Which is why it is so important that we challenge the premise of this tax. I am quite happy to make a contribution towards any services I receive; my point is that it must be OUR decision and not Westminster’s and nobody under the age of 70 has ever been asked. If the House of Commons gets used to the idea that we will accept what was once a fee for services becoming a direct tax on our people going directly into their coffers at the Treasury, then we will have failed one of the fundamental principles laid down in the charters that give us our ancient rights and freedoms which stipulate quite clearly that we are not subject English taxes. It is adey as basic as that.
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Dave Jones:
Call it what you like – it is what pays for the BBC, and anyone who does not want to pay is asking for a service for free. You never did answer my question about whether you use any of BBC’s services.
Toby:
Show me where you read this please. Are you sure you’re not getting confused with BBC4? (Which incidentally is totally different to Channel 4).
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Truth Man
Yes I do occasionally watch the BBC and I also pay the present licence tax but that does not mean that I agree with this tax in principle this is a constitutional issue about us having clear blue water between us and UK taxes. George put it very well in his recent letter and I quote
“The rationale behind the principle thus stated is that: a claim for taxes is but an extension of the sovereign power, which imposed the taxes and an assertion of sovereign authority by one state within the territory of another, is contrary to all concepts of independent sovereignties” end quote
As a member of the External Relations Group it is my job to make sure that the autonomy we have is protected and that includes our right to set our own taxes and not be subject to arbitrary taxes from elsewhere. Now I know many of you think there is little difference between a fee and a tax but constitutionally they are world’s apart one we don’t mind paying the other we most certainly do.
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Dave Jones:
The argument that taxes are fees imposed by the sovereignty has only become an argument for you since the UK decided to name the TV licence a ‘tax’. Therefore, to try to link that argument to constitutional rights is a rather poor attempt at producing a rationale for your stance. The TV licence is (whether it is called a tax or not) a legal requirement in the UK, and here. Therefore, whether it is called a tax, or a fee, or a licence, it has ALWAYS been a fee imposed by the sovereignty since only the Queen (or King when there is one) can make something law. This is even though, ironically they are called ‘Acts of Parliament’, as they are such on the Queen’s behalf and with her agreement. Even here, our laws are authorised by the Privy Council, an authority on behalf of the Queen. Therefore, if the basis for your argument is that we should not allow sovereign powers to extend to our shores why are you not arguing to completely alter our constitution to remove UK legal influence from us? The TV licence debate seems to be the symptom of your issue, not the actual issue or cause. I suspect the answer is in my last paragraph.
With reference to your last sentence, I think the recent threads have shown that the ‘we’ you refer to is not necessarily the majority. Therefore, on the basis you are democratically elected I have to wonder whether this is your own personal crusade, rather than working for what the majority electorate want?
Either way, we receive BBC services here, including local services. That brings me back to my main point, which is that people who do not want to pay the TV Licence simply want to avail themselves of services for free, whilst others who live under the sovereignty that you seem to want to separate us from, pay for our pleasures. Well, ask yourself this – if we do separate ourselves from the sovereign, and don’t pay for or receive BBC services, could our tiny island provide such top quality entertainment at the same price of a TV licence? No, of course not. So, please Dave, leave well alone before all we’re left with is Island FM. Think ahead about what it is you’re actually proposing.
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Dave,
You are probably right on the constitutional point. However, I just wonder what you expect to achieve through a States Debate? Let’s say the States agree Guernsey should not be subject to UK taxes. Then what? Does the States back George all the way to the courts? Should the States pick a fight direct with the Treasury…or the BBC?
I just can’t envisage the UK Treasury or other bodies using this “fee”/”tax” issue to attempt to levy taxes on the people of Guernsey. So I’m just not sure what could be achieved. On the flip side is there not a significant risk that we could make things a lot worse for ourselves at a time when we really don’t need the profile?
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T M
Of course it has only become a point of contention since this fee was classified as a tax and that’s the bit we have to sort out with HMG, you seem to assume that none of us want to pay anything for the services we receive from the BBC, that is not true, there are plenty of other examples of countries that receive BBC programs that don’t pay a license fee to the UK. My view is that we should pay the BBC a proportion relative to the services we receive we will not be getting all the services available after the digital switchover as I understand it in any event and any future agreement on what the level of this charge for services should be, would be decided by the States on behalf of our people. Your point on the Privy Council is one I am making all the time whenever the subject comes up in meetings. We are a mature long established democracy and we should no longer in my view be sending our legislation to the UK for un-elected officials to decide what we can have and what we cannot. The point made strongly by Advocate Perrot at his recent public meeting The Queen does not get to see a fraction of the legislation sent to the Privy Council from these islands so the idea our sovereign exercises her power of assent is nonsense. The officials behind the scenes are the ones making all the decisions. The point on the sovereignty of the British parliament is that it cannot be extended to us without our expressed consent and when this fee was changed to a tax we were never consulted which is why it needs sorting out.
Adey
No, the point of a States debate would be to re-negotiate in the first instance what level of charge we would pay for the services we receive from the BBC and to remove any idea that it is a tax imposed upon us by officials in the UK who islanders have not elected. It would strengthen our position not weaken it and it would also clear up once and for all the animosity some feel to having a UK tax imposed on us. At the very least any charges would be as a result of decisions made here NOT in the UK which is an important point.
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Dave Jones – Your statement “there are plenty of other examples of countries that receive BBC programs that don’t pay a license fee to the UK” is misleading. Whilst other countries do not pay a licence fee to the BBC, they have to purchase the BBC programmes they broadcast.
So, extrapolating your comment, if Guernsey did go it alone, we would have to buy in BBC programmes. And how much do you think that would cost?! I have no figures, but I’d bet my student grant that it would be more than the licence fee tax that we pay now!!
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Truthman argues his case to preserve his comfy job at the BBC. Quality programmes ? How can you argue that it is right for this island to pay 3 or 4 million a year to the UK and have no say in how it is spent. We are a small community well served by commercial stations why should we have to pay for the BBC, it is not a States dept.
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Dave Jones,
But… if your comments on previous posts are taken to conclusion, then it would stand to reason that if constitution is the reason for your objection the the TV Licence, then you would always have had an objection to the licence!
And in terms of the Queen not viewing all submissions, this does not lessen the the fact that she exercises her power of ascent every time the Privy Council passes one of our new laws. The Privy Council simply do it on her behalf. It is no different than you making a decision regarding housing : you are making it on behalf of Mr Rowland. The fact that you made the decision in your appointed role as a deputy does not lessen Mr Rowland’s role or authority.
And by the way, if we do eventually receive a lesser BBC service than our UK counter parts then I totally agree, we should pay a reduced fee.
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Student Bob
I am talking about viewers, not TV companies who purchase services from various programme corporations. The people who view the BBC in many countries don’t pay a penny or a centime to the BBC. Most of what they view from the BBC comes to them via satellite through SKY or Free View systems. On your last point I am not suggesting we do “go it alone” what I am saying is that the States of Guernsey looks at what we are paying for in terms of service to this island and passes up to date legislation that allows us legitimately to pay a fee while at the same time removing the assumption by HMG that we are subject to UK taxes which as I say has all kinds of constitutional ramifications connected to such a tax.
Truth Man
You are right I have always had an objection to the TV licence in its present form and if you check with the Guernsey Press archives you will see that they covered my objection several years ago on this matter and I went along to see the Law officers and pressed my case that any COMPULSORY charges paid to the UK by our people can and must be sanctioned by our parliament after wide consultation with the people of Guernsey. I was even more alarmed when it was reclassified by John Prescott in the House of Commons as a tax and I have not changed my views one jot. As for HMQ and royal assent I have said before and I repeat, we are a mature civilised long standing democracy and we are more than capable of deciding which laws are appropriate for our people the only reason our legislation went before the Privy Council in the first place was that all sovereigns throughout were absolute monarchs and ruled their realms without restraint (well at least up to Charles 1st who lost his crown along with his head) the present sovereign is a constitutional monarch who delegates all her powers to her Ministers and they in turn pass those delegated powers on to officials who like lots of officials put their own interpretation on things, that’s why we should end the practice of sending our laws to the PC. If you look at all the African states and commonwealth countries that have gained independence over the years and who do not ask anyone’s permission to legislate for their people. Many who have turned free nation states into dictatorships with suppression and murder as their idea of government I say we are better than them and can make up our own minds in our own parliament.
PS I am off Island for a few days, so you will have to continue the discussion without me
DJ
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Truth man – apologies for misreading your post earlier see mine of Jan 31 – 8-23pm, my question should have gone to donkey man!
In fact Truth Man you have been making a lot of sensible comments based on facts on here which those supporting George either dont understand, dont want to understand or are too stupid to understand. If I were in the UK and facing higher taxes and a BBC licence fee which subisidised public service broadcasting in an affluent society outside of the UK – I think I would be writing to my MP and the Chairman of the BBC demanding that my licence fee should not be wasted on “our dear channel islanders”.
Jack
PS – Dave Jones – never thought I would live to see you want to delegate this decision to the Office of Utility Regulation?! See post on Feb 6th at 1.07pm!
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Paul,
Using your rather short sighted rationale for assuming I work for the BBC, I will say this:
Paul argues against the BBC to protect his job at a commercial TV station so that he can churn out more and more rubbish, interspersed with adverts and product placement.
p.s. I do not work for the BBC, and I have never done so.
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Dave Jones:
When we discuss things like constitution I don’t think we can compare our status with other members of the Commonwealth, as we earned our position and relationship with the UK under very, very different circumstances than all other Commonwealth countries.
Our connection with the UK does not arise as a result of being invaded by the English. Quite the opposite in fact. We are related to the UK because our ruler invaded them. We should be proud of our history, and should not try to hide from it. This TV licence thing is rather pathetic in the grand scheme of things, and thus far I have not seen one argument from you that really makes me feel like you have a valid point.
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