Compulsory helmets ‘would put people off cycling’
Thursday 18th February 2010, 2:29PM GMT.
COMPELLING cyclists to wear helmets would put people off riding, a Jersey deputy said last night.
Daniel Wimberley was guest speaker at last evening’s Guernsey Bicycle Group annual general meeting.
He outlined the benefits of improving cycle facilities in the Channel Islands but warned: ‘If wearing a cycle helmet was compulsory there will be fewer cyclists.
‘We need to promote cycling as much as possible and inform people of the benefits, like less land being needed for parking and things like that.
‘If there are more cyclists then the safer they will be – it’s all about safety in numbers.’
Deputy Wimberley has been campaigning against a proposal by fellow Jersey deputy Andrew Green, who believes wearing a helmet while cycling should be compulsory.
‘He is looking at it from a very narrow view,’ said Deputy Wimberley.
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Elf n Saftee seems to be creeping in rather too much with this suggestion.
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Why wouldn’t you want to wear a helmet? The only barriers that I can see, is some people think they look silly, they cost about £10 and… that’s about it? Maybe people don’t like something on their head? I dunno, but all those arguments are outweighed by me liking my brain, its a good brain, does it’s job well.
Perhaps they should allow you to take any safety risks to your person you like, and hell, if you smash into your windscreen from not wearing your seat-belt or if you need therapy for the rest of your life from a knock to your noggin, then you could fund all your treatment yourself! Else… well, you should have worn a helmet!
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I would tend to side with Andy. The island, like much of western Europe, seems to be getting safety-mad. I personally don`t wish ever to wear a helmet on my bike.
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Its almost as bad as that pancake race in the UK on Shrove Tuesday…contestants were not allowed to run in case they had an accident. I kid you not !
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Joshua – there are many good reasons for wearing a helmet, but it really should be down to personal choice.
I generally wear a helmet, but then I am usually dressed in cycling gear when on my bike, not normal clothes.
Reasons for not wearing one are varied:
1. helmet hair
2. problems with storing/carrying it once you’ve parked your bike
3. find them uncomfortable (less of a problem with modern designs)
4. riding a bike is one of life’s great freedoms, let’s not ruin it
5. like the feeling of wind in the hair
6. have ridden a bike since being a toddler, never worn a helmet and it’s never been a problem
7. helmet hair
The health benefits to society and the environment of more people riding bikes greatly outweighs the added injury to the occasional person who falls off and hurts their head. In a lot of accidents a helmet would do nothing anyway. The suitbelt argument is different for these reasons.
I choose to wear one as it is easy to do and I’d rather take a precaution that causes me little inconvience and might just save me in certain circumstances. But if other people find them inconvenient (or are simply being libertarian) then I would rather that they choose to ride lid-less than junp in the car instead.
One of the biggest things to put people off cycling is perceived risk. Adding helmets, fluoro tops and all other paraphenalia adds to the perceived risk but does little to reduce actual risk in most circumstances. It puts people off by convincing them that there is something to be afraid of.
Our roads are not exactly dangerous. Drivers are used to slowing down to wait behind wobbly school children on bikes until it is safe to pass. I would rather that continued than for drivers to think that just because the cyclists have every bit of safety equipment on that it means they can execute a dodgy overtaking move (which is a reaction borne out by a study in the UK).
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I don’t think we need a law to tell people to wear helmets, lets have some freedom of choice for once. I choose to wear a helmet to protect my noggin but others like the wind in the hair, so what ! As long as people are aware of the dangers then that should be enough.
If we don’t stop the law making where will it end ! No running on the street, banning scissors because we may hurt ourselves ! Only allowing us crayons !!! Banning the sale of fags and booze :-)
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slep – can i ask why?
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Get used to wearing a helmet, I wouldn’t ride a bike without one
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Daniel Wimberley states “If wearing a cycle helmet was compulsory there will be fewer cyclists”
And the problem with that is?
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Simple solution…Health Insurance is invalidated if you do not wear one….
Seat belts are compulsary for a reason and so if you can not spend £10 and wear a helmet, why should our taxes pay for caring for someone brain damaged because they decided they did not want to wear a helmet
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Bang your head one time and you will wear a helmet from then on.
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PC – simple answer: for every one head injury to a helmet-less cyclist there are many many thousands of harmless cycling journeys.
That means a healthier population and so less drain on healthcare resources. It means fewer journeys made by car and so fewer emissions. It means fewer cars on the road so that motorists are held up by fewer motorists…etc.
There is no benefit to not wearing a seatbelt. There is a benefit to allowing people to cycle with or without a helmet.
Bogart – if you imagine every cyclist on this island driving a car instead, imagine how much longer the traffic jams that you get stuck in would be. They’re doing you a favour.
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I cycle now and then (my girth suggests not enough as I should!) and sometimes I wear a helmet, sometimes not.
Personally I wouldn’t give a hoot if wearing a helmet was made compulsory, I’d just put a helmet on all the time instead of occasionally. I’ve got better things to occupy myself with than making a fuss about such a minor thing.
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TL – I see your reasoning in your first post however I cannot believe that cyclists will get off their bikes and into their cars simply because they have to wear a helmet – it’s not that big a deal, surely?
To take the seatbelt analogy, I didn’t see people getting out of their cars and into their bikes when that was made law…although perhaps we’d all be healthier if we had!
In cases like this, generally, people will moan for a bit, bleat on about civil liberties (go to Iran if you think Guernsey is draconian!) then comply – only a few hardcore individuals will dig their heels in. In some cases that is justified however in this case, not only be cutting off their nose to spite their face, it would be petty in the extreme.
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Paul Le Page – I know a number of casual cyclists who hate helmets and who would not cycle if they had to wear one, so yes they would take the car.
There have been a number of countries which saw a drop in cycle use after making helmets compulsory.
But the heart of my objection is that this is an area where there is no need to legislate. And I am all for limiting the extent to which the state regulates our lives into one conformist type.
The other aspect is to take a step back. Why do we feel the need to make people “safe” by forcing the use of something that would have little effect in most accidents? Surely we should be treating the cause, not sticking a plaster over the top? Look at the Netherlands, where huge numbers of people use bikes in their everyday lives, wearing normal clothes. Relatively few wear helmets. Of course we cannot simply replicate their road designs and there are cultural differences, but we could learn a thing or two.
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Thing is how far are things gonna go?Pedestrians having to wear helmets and body armour?Maybe motorists having to wear helmets too?
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Would it be a silly suggestion to revise the proposal to under 18s only?
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BANG your head once and you could be DEAD – BRAIN DAMAGED – left in a wheel chair and dependent on others for the res of you life. Maybe i should introduce you to a few casualtys and i think you would all chage your mind
This subject should not be challenged and you should think before objecting,
What would it take for YOU to change your mind?????
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I’m in Melbourne where Helmets are compulsory – if everyone has to wear them then you don’t look stupid and I think the fact that it could save your life is a good enough reason to wear them! Did they say this when they made it compulsory to wear them on motorbikes? It’s the same thing…
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Lucy – no, its not really the same as motorbikes. If you fall off a motorbike a helmet is essential as you are very likely to be going at a decent speed and will bounce along the road.
Bikes are used in many other circumstances – from kids cycling in the park, to adults pootling on cycle paths, to people commuting on roads, to racers going at full pelt (where helmets are rightly compulsory). If a kid falls off their bike they generally topple at low speed and graze their knee and little else.
Helmets do not make a particular difference in a lot of circumstances. As I said above, I choose to wear one 99% of the time but I really do feel it is a matter of personal choice.
I’ve cycled nearly all of my life and it is only when started to take it seriously as a sport that I felt the need to get a helmet. There are many people who cycle without ever being in a situation where it will make a particular difference.
I.Le Page makes a good point. There are many more head injuries inside a car than on a bike – so if the arguments for making bicycle helmets complusory are valid, why do we not wear helmets when driving?
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TL you can not control other motorists what if one hit you.. maybe for some one like you it will take something serious to happen to you or a loved one to make you see sence.ONCE SOMETHING SERIOUS HAS HAPPENED IT IS TO LATE
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TL – I’m not questioning your reasoning at all, your points are valid. I don’t always wear a helmet and don’t really like being told what to do either by an over protective government.
Nevertheless, what I am questioning is the mentality of people who would stop cycling simply because they have to wear a helmet. Although your points are valid and I agree with the majority of them, none of the reasons justify such an overreaction….it’s all pretty petty and pathetic I’m afraid.
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For those that argue a helmet will protect you and prevent against serious injury, I would refer you back to a recent high profile court case involving the rather aptly named Manny Helmot, who even though he was wearing his helmet, still suffered horrific and life changing injuries in his collision.
If people dont want to wear a helmet, then fine, they obviously dont have too much of a brain to protect, and they will have no right to claim any medical expenses etc. Should be as simple as that.
PS what about the posties, who love riding round, with their helmet sat on their head, yet not done up, what is with that???
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coco – I do choose to wear a helmet, I just don’t think that they should made compulsory.
you are only looking at the risk, not the effects of taking precautions against that risk. some risks in life can be removed without disadvantage. this is one risk where the precautions do appear to have disadvantages when looking at the overall effect on society. it does not change the risk, but is changes the question of whether the precautions should be forced or merely advised.
Paul Le P – yes, I would advise anyone to wear a helmet but so long as there are people who think like that, then I would rather they were free to cycle without a helmet than not at all.
It just annoys me when people who know little about cycling in the real world start advocating regulation. Rather like whenever people assert that all bikes should have bells…
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Mrs.B, my answer to your question is quite simple: I don`t wish to wear a helmet!
I.Le Page, good point there.
Should the States also make knee- and elbow pads compulsory for pedestrians, for when they trip and fall over?!
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This whole argument seems to boil down to one question “Is it worth it?”
If you feel it detracts from the “freedom” of cycling, I would say you are being stubborn, and if it stops people from cycling, it’s better for their health.
Perhaps The States should conduct some research into the matter, crash tests, impact tests, real world simulations and report back to us as to their results and then make the appropriate ruling on the matter.
And like the other guy said “it’s no big deal” honestly, it isn’t.
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I get more concerned when i see some of these girls on their scooters with short skirts and nothing to protect their legs at all.
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I cycle to work very often, but if helmet wearing was compulsory, then I would probably have to stop, seriously.
I choose not to wear a helmet, I have cycled for 28 years, I’m still fully abled…… shock horror.
Just as I choose to cross the road when there are no cars instaed of walking to the zebra crossing.
I was cycling the other day round a blind corner and a bus was coming the other way, on my side of the road, I had to take evasive action onto the pavement.
If the bus had hit me, I’d have been dead, however if I was wearing a helmet, I’d have still been dead.
This isnt about the saftey virtues of helemts, this is about not having liberties taken away from you.
And if you think that me potentially spending my life as a cripple because of a cycling accident is a massive drain on your taxes, then let me suggest this…….
You are barking completely up the wrong tree!
There, I said it.
A cyling accident is still an accident, the amount of people sponging off the states to fund sitting at home smoking weed and playing on a states funded Xbox 360 (yes a 360, no self respecting dolehead would have a standard Xbox) is no accident.
Methinks that if you are allowing yourself to get so worked up about tax dollars paying for disabled cyclists you should be pointing your fingers elsewhere.
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I can’t believe the number of people on here who think helmets should be compulsory. No-one has the right to make me wear a helmet on a bicycle – I am able to decide myself whether its a risk I wish to take and I am quite happy to take that risk. If people wish to wear a helmet I have no problem with them doing so but me not wearing one does not affect anyone.
I also don’t wear a seatbelt in Guernsey as I do not believe the speeds warrant it – I do though wear one when away driving at highee speeds and especially on the motorway. Again it should be personal choice where no-one else is affected.
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The idiots at iosh.co.uk would say anything to condone their position. Bicycles and Motorbikes are different.
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The reason for the traffic jam is caused by the cyclist up ahead. As an ex cyclist I shudder to think how safely they would drive when behind the wheel of a car judging by some of the antics I see every day.
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You only get one head……..maybe some hard hitting head injury rehab adverts would bring the idea to the front of their heads!
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let it be up to the idiot that doesnt want to wear one decide.
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Russm (and others with similar posts).
You need to consider others, who could be affected by your decision to undertake unsafe practices. To suggest only you would suffer as a result of your poor decision is an indication that you really haven’t considered the point at all.
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The reason they are compulsory is because wearing a helmet can make a significant difference in the case of an accident. If you choose not to wear one and have an accident and suffer severe damage I cannot choose not to pay, via my taxes, for the care costs incurred. That is why they have been compulsory in Australia for as long as I can remember. There was a murmur at first (same as when they dealt with smoking!) but it soon went away and was a storm in a teacup.
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The other way to look at this is to reduce the amount of cars ! maybe we should reduce the speed limit to 5mph for cars . Lets face it the amount of people injured in car accidents is increasing. We should also make the wearing of helmets compulsory for car drivers and passengers. as well as insisting that all cars are made from foam to ensure pedestrians are not hurt when when being hit by drivers unable to see as their helmets have fogged up. Alternatively we can all stay at home and never leave the front door……. too sarcastic ! Well made me laugh !!!not as much as the car that pulled out in front of me the other day after watching me come down the hill !
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bishopsroad
You are right, people should definately NOT wear helmets, afterall, if a helmet saves a life and they spend the rest of their life disabled in care, thats more of your tax money being spent than if the person hadnt worn a helmet and died.
Truth Man
If some idiot knocks someone off their bike because of lunatic driving, then they deserve to be affected by it.
People have cycled safely for years, its only as car driver have become more impatient and driving faster that more accidents have occured.
Why should cyclists be affected?? Car drivers should have to buy big memory foam bumpers instead, because its them thats causing all the problems.
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Dave Haslam:
Dave, you also have clearly not considered the point at all:
1. It is most certainly not only drivers that create fatal collisions, cyclists also cause them on occasion, as do other factors beyond an individual’s control such as automatism.
2. Even if a collision is caused by a driver at fault, are you really so naive as to believe that only that driver and the deceased person will suffer?!
Come on, think it through. Fatal collisions, however they are caused, affect many many people and they should all be considered when we talk about road safety.
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Dave Haslam
What if some idiot on a bike decides to carry on through a red light as often happens and hits a car, then what?. I have nothing against cycle riders but some of them are just crazy,jumping red lights,not stopping at yellow lines,riding on pavements also across zebra crossings,riding the wrong side of the road the list goes on.
So i dont think it is fair to say it`s the motorists that cause the problems.
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Why should a insurance company pay out if I suffer a head injury whilst cyling down the road and lose control and hit a wall?
Should a car insurance policy pay up for injuries that could have been reduced if a helmet is worn.
I await the first case but imo my premiums should not be used to cover medical bills of someone not taking adequate precautions.
I had a serious bike crash (my fault) 30 years ago as a teenager – which would not have been half as bad if my face had been protected from hitting the tarmac at 25 miles an hour racing down a hill.
I have seen under 10 year olds without helmets messing about on the roads – could be future front page news and a lifetime of guilt for the parents.
As a active cyclist it is compulsary for my family to wear their helmets and as a parent I see it as my duty to protect my children given they are still learners. If any law should come in it should be for under 16′s and maybe they will not be so pig headed as some of the so called wiser generation who would give up if forced to wear a helmet..talk about childish and suppose the same people gave up their cars when seatbelt introduced and their horses before that!!
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bcb
I’m sure that you are aware that it’s statistically proven that idiot driver’s cause far more crashes than helmetless cyclists.
Plus in my experience I find a helmeted cyclist is more likely to put himself in danger, than a helmetless one I’ve seen 1 guy with a big purple helmet who’s always running red lights.
I don’t condone this behaviour, but I’ve never seen anyone without a helmet causing this kind of mayhem.
Truth Man
Surely if you are talking about friends and family, the clearly they should have done more to persuade the deceased to wear a helmet, or maybe they could be happy that they went out without a care with the wind in their hair
Although I honestly don’t see on the vast majority of road accidents how a cycle helmet would help.
PC
I fail to see how a helmet on your head, would protect your face, although I do feel that any responsible parent should make their child wear protective clothing when going anywhere near Guernsey’s wacky races drivers.
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Dave Haslam:
Your statistics seem to be based on opinion rather than evidence, so I think it’s a shame you’ve placed such credence on your limited personal experience.
If someone you love goes out on their bike, and gets killed or suffers life changing injuries that could have been prevented if they had been wearing a cycle helmet then I suspect you would change your tune.
The “It’s my choice” argument on the cycle helmet issue is just as reckless, selfish and naive as those who think it should be their choice whether or not to wear a seatbelt.
Luckily Dave, laws are passed to protect people like you from yourselves. I suppose that way it saves you from really having to think about the issue at all!
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Spare me the patronism Truth man, if that is your real name??
You know the statistics, prove me wrong?
I’m perfectly happy without a helmet because I understand the risks. This is what it boils down to, understanding of personal risk. Dragging other parties into the debate just muddies the water into what is actually a simple personal choice.
I do appreciate perhaps that some people (maybe such as you?) need a law for practically every part of their life because without it they wouldn’t be able to function as a normal person. If you are happy being told how to live every aspect of your life then fine, great for you, some of us appreciate having the ability to make decisions instead of dogmatically following what doctrines are passed down from high.
In other news, new laws in the pipeline
Shoelaces have to be tied using the double knot method
All OAPS to have elbow and knee pads (spot £250 fine for non- compliance)
Plastic bait hooks to replace all metal ones by 2014
All people with IQ’s lower than 105 to have their driving licence revoked and have to be permanently monitored by people better prepaped to make decisions on their behalf.
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Far more car drivers and pedestrians suffer head injuries than cyclists (even as a proportion).
It is the perception (always by non-cyclists) that cycling is inherently dangerous (which it isn’t) and that a helmet must therefore ‘help’.
If one really wanted to prevent head injuries, one would introduce them for car drivers (in case they crash), pensioners taking baths or walking to the shops (in case they slip), and especially for people wobbling back from the pub on a Friday night.
Let’s have driving helmets, walking helmets, and especially ‘drinking helmets’ in order to make the world a safer place.
Or is that as silly as insisted on cycling helmets?
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“Cyclists must wear helmets” is often a view put forward by non-cyclists – especially car drivers irritated by cyclists (who don’t pay road tax! – spongers!) using roads.
It’s a back-door way of trying to get rid of cyclists, and it should be resisted as such.
I suggest every time that someone suggests legislating such a ridiculous law that we insist that the law also includes a mandatory 5mph car speed limit, and helmets and body armour for all pedestrians who cross roads.
Given we live in a place where a taxi-driver thought it was acceptable to deliberately drive into someone to “teach them a lesson”, I think we’ve got bigger road safety issues to worry about.
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Dave Haslam:
Truth Man is not my real name.
Your third paragraph sums up our difference in opinion completely, and is again clear to me that your approach to this topic is simply about what you want, and to hell with anyone that might suffer as a result.
It is a personal choice, but one that has far reaching consequences that are not limited to simply what might happen to you. You might call that muddying the waters, I call that considering the feelings of others.
As for me being patronising – I make no apology for the fact that I find your attitude to this subject to be ill thought out and rather narrow.
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There are no so blind that will not see, there are none so deaf that will not listen. Yawn yawn, yes the world is very complicated so laws are passed to make the irresposible do what the responsible do automaticly. I don’t ride a bike anymore so I’ll say no more.
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I would love bicycle helmets to be compulsory.
My teenaged son does not wear a helmet on his bicycle, he refuses because not a single one of his friends/peers wears one, so he would be the odd one out.
I worry every single time he is out on his bike.
p.s. don’t all come down on me about forcing my son to wear a helmet, ‘peer pressure’ is much stronger than ‘parent pressure’
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D_T – I sympathise, but I would say this – as a young lad he will do many things that are far more dangerous than riding around on our roads without a helmet. I do not think that you need to worry as much as you do, as it is not the biggest risk facing him. I would be more worried if he rode a scooter WITH a helmet – the risk to life and limb is far greater.
I know that this will not help if the unfortunate thing happens and he suffers a head injury on his bike, but the same could be said for letting him walk along pavements while wearing an iPod, etc. You are right to try to persuade him, but I wish to reassure you to remove your worry.
Unless he is doing off-road mountain biking, or doing tricks and jumps, or racing then the perceived risk is much higher than the real risk. And I am speaking from experience.
I thought that helmets were now becoming fashionable for young lads on bmxs and jump bikes – it makes them look “hard” as if they are taking part in the X Games (as long as they are the bowl type of helmet, not the racing cyclist type)
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James
It’s a back-door way of trying to get rid of cyclists, and it should be resisted as such.
Please tell me that was a joke?.
Maybe its because we can hit them at higher speeds knowing they got more protection?
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From what I see, certain individuals from all categories of road users have a tendency do selfish, ignorant things on the road that are annoying / dangerous to others and themselves.
As far as safety is concerned, anyone remember when seat belts were introduced? They were far from popular, and to this day mess up your clothes and in some cases, can actually cause injury and even death. Despite this, like it or not, we have the law, which applies to all drivers, even those who drive at a steady 15mph.
So now, cycle helmets. Well, yes, they can make one look daft and undoubtedly ruin your barnet. And I can see for those who are very ‘anti’, making them compulsory could well spoil the enjoyment for the rider. If that’s enough reason to risk life and limb on our ridiculously over crowded roads full of revved up kevs and stressed out 4 x 4 mummies whose massive ‘roo bars (the car’s, not theirs) could kill a charging elephant, then seriously, go for gold, guys. You should be able to choose.
…the only thing I would say, is that IF an individual would rather die or risk brain damage for the sake of their principals, rights and to prove a point, and they do get hit by a car, I hope that they will be comforted by those same thoughts during their stay in hospital.
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I’m all for helmets. Back when I was 12 I was knocked off my shang by a speeding car, lot of granite rash on my arms and legs, completely shattered helmet which could have been my skull.
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Mr Man
Well, you know what they say, the sun always shines on the (self) righteous.
Its so nice to know there are people like you around to poke your nose into other peoples business and to tell us all we are selfish for wanting to decide things for ourselves.
But think of this, what liberty is next?? And how will you react if you dont agree with the next law thats brought in??
Scarlett
Very well put…. utter garbage, but very well put nonetheless.
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Dave Haslam
You Say
Plus in my experience I find a helmeted cyclist is more likely to put himself in danger, than a helmetless one I’ve seen 1 guy with a big purple helmet who’s always running red lights.
I don’t condone this behaviour, but I’ve never seen anyone without a helmet causing this kind of mayhem.
Just to be clear i`ve seen helmetless riders crashing red lights dozens of times, and while people are crossing the road.
Like you said to scarlett
Very well put…. utter garbage, but very well put nonetheless.
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Davey H.
Goodness! This cycling helmet drama is obviously of overwhelming importance to you, judging by the verve (some would same venom) and passion (some would say ranting) with which you state your case, and the way that you are so desperate to insult someone who you thought was disagreeing with you, that you didn’t actually bother to READ (or understand) my post, which is based on the fact that I am also PRO CHOICE…
which, according to you, means you are also spouting ‘utter garbage’ (so a bit of an own goal there).
What I said was, you pays your money, you takes your chance, and if you understand the risks (your words) and sustain an injury that could have been avoided by wearing a helmet, then personal responsibility must be taken for personal choices.
(This view does not apply to children, who, I think, should have to wear helmets until they are old enough to be considered adult, when they are entitled to make their own choices).
Try counting to ten and realising that there’s other things that are just a tad more important in this world than cycling helmets (good grief) before charging in in such an over the top, abusive, uninformed, reactionary manner against those who disagree with your views, or in my case, actually SHARES your view (though not your sentiments) and making yourself look foolish…
and fyi, I do NOT wear a helmet, though if people start thinking that I am some sort of fanatical anti-cycle helmet radical like you, I may well have to start, as I’d rather look like an idiot than act like one.
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Dave Haslam:
If you do not like hearing the comments and opinions of others, can I suggest you don’t read them. I’m not being self-righteous – I just think you are wrong, and selfish. You’re using words such as ‘self-righteous’ because you don’t like the fact that I don’t agree with you, and I have the cheek to say so.
As for your “think of this” paragraph, you are simply scratching around for support for your poor rationale for being selfish. If I don’t like the next law that is brought in, I will say so and give the reasons. Simple fact is, I DO like the idea of a law that would make cycle helmets obligatory, so your question/point is moot.
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The simple way to look at it is this.
How many people are hospitalised or killed in car/motorbike accidents every year in comparison to those in cycling accidents?
I dont have the figures available but I am pretty sure that the number of serious injuries from cars with their airbags and seatbelts, and motorbikes with their helmets are a great deal higher. I fail to see how making helmets compulsory will achieve anything other than building the states buffers, and what happens if you dont pay your fine, you go to prison for not wearing a bicycle helmet, I think that would cost more in tax payers money than the very rare occasion of somebody getting seriously injured cycling.
As TL says, the bicycle groups in Guernsey require you to wear a helmet and during my time in the velo club I saw people turned away from races because they did not have theirs.
We are already in a society that has been taken over by health and safety and the PC brigade, lets us have some liberties. Wearing a helmet should remain a personal choice.
Maybe we should all be wrapped in bubble wrap when we leave the front door, I think I will copyright the idea of a bubble wrap coat and trousers, add to that some steel toe cap boots and a helmet and we are all sorted, haha.
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Before it became law, how many of you wore a motorbike helmet?
Before it became law, how many of you wore your car seat belt?
Not that many, I am sure.
It has been proven that helmets and seat belts have saved lives.
There needs to be a law that cyclists on a road (as opposed to toddlers in the park)have to wear a helmet.
I think society needs help to help themselves.
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SW – but you are comparing apples with oranges.
Seatbelts in cars are not the same for the following reasons:
1. if you crash without a seatbelt at anything more than 30 miles an hour you will, more than likely, fly through the windscreen and die
2. most journeys include periods at a lot more than 30 miles an hour
3. driving is not in itself a beneficial activity and so there is no reason to avoid measures that discourage it (and in recent times there are many measures to actively discourage it).
Helmets for motorcyclists are not the same for much the same reasons.
However, most cyclists travel slowly and if they were to crash a helmet will not necessarily make a difference. There are also good reasons to promote cycling rather than discourage it – health benefits, reduced obesity, reduced traffic, reduced carbon footprint, fewer emissions, etc.
People will take different views about the degree of risk involved, but you cannot simply draw a direct comparison with seatbelts or motorcycle helmets.
Ultimately, this is a lot of arguing over a very small number of injuries.
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I can not believe that ppl are going against something that could save a life…..maybe these ppl have had some kind of knock on there head already and its sent then dooolaaaalllllyyyyy
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coco – do you wear a helmet while driving? statistically, that is more useful and is more likely to save your life than a helmet while cycling.
I would always advise people to wear one while cycling, but never force them to do so.
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Truth Man
I’m ironic because you appear to have exactly the same traits you accuse me of, however I’m not trying to run peoples lives for them the way you are.
Scarlett
What?? Try reading my first and second posts again to see exactly where I was coming from…… big purple helmet!?!?!?!
Seriously!!
I’m going to leave this debate/ expert wumming session to a great man far more qualified than any of us.
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”
Lets see if it carries on
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TL
Cylists are travelling at slower speeds agreed, but other road users are not. Surely having a helmet makes sense. If everyone has to wear one then there is no stigma to wearing one, returning to my point before you had to wear a seatbelt most of us did not but now we all have to,we do it and don’t think twice about it. When helmets became law for motorbikes I don’t believe that people thought they would never ride their motorbikes again!! I don’t believe that making it law will discourage many from riding.
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Dave Haslam:
I am not trying to run anyone’s life at all. I simply think the proposed law is a good idea. And additionally, I think your rationale for disagreeing with the proposed law is based on selfishness and a lack of regard for other people.There is nothing contained in those two personal opinions which would suggest I want to run your life at all!
And as for the ‘traits’ you mention I accuse you of having, I guess you mean selfishness? Show me your evidence of me being selfish?
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So basically what you are saying is that you are right, Benjamin Franklin is wrong.
Wow what an ego you have!!
The trait I was on about was that you dont appear to tolerate other peoples opinions, that was what you accused me of, maybe if you stopped inferring (and interfering) so much………..
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Dave:
No ego, just an opinion! Franklin has nothing to do with it.
I have no issue tolerating some people’s opinions – it’s simply that your opinion makes you sound selfish and narrow minded.
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Truth Man – alternatively, Dave’s opinion could make him seem able to see beyond the easy assumptions and assess a situation based on reality.
It is only your opinion that sees him as selfish and narrow minded. Others would see your own opinion as blinkered, unthinking and superficial. In their opinion, of course ;-)
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I wear a helmet when riding my horse-my horse when walking is a lot slower than a bike-my horse is well behaved on the roads and i trust him with my life-yes horses are unpreditable and guess what so are humens.Helmots are worn for a reason but i guess that it dose not matter to the ppl who think that they should not have to wear one because they are brain dead already
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reading between the lines of some who think that cars have more accident- ok so you are riding your bike slowly down the road minding your own (yeah right like some could!) a car passes you clips you and makes you topple over in to a wall hitting your head -can i leave the rest to your imagination. if you need me to spell it out let me know
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Truth Man
Oh, so Ben Franklins loss of liberty quote has nothing to do with this……..
Or is it because it doesnt suit your argument
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TL:
Of course it is merely my opinion! And it may be that Dave is not selfish and narrow minded at all – I am merely saying, that in my opinion his comments make him sound that way.
I would say this though: I believe I have provided a basis for me having that opinion. I would be interested in hearing the basis for someone finding my comments “blinkered, unthinking and superficial”.
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Truth Man – because if you read my posts above, you will see that I have advocated that (a) there is a bigger picture to consider than just the potential injury to an individual, (b) the risk benefit balance does not justify it and (c) that making helmets compulsory while doing nothing about road safety is a false comfort.
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coco – you are already supporting the use of helmets on bikes and so your example of using a helmet on a horse is no surprise.
What would be more instructive is if you answer the question of why you do not wear a helmet while driving? After all, the “stars in reasonably priced cars” on Top Gear wear them, so there is an easy and proven way to reduce the acknowledged risk of head injury.
Your argument that helmets while cycling should be complusory because “a helmet might just be useful one day” also applies to driving – in fact more so because many more head injuries are suffered in a car than on a bike. So if you are calling for measures to be taken to save lives, do you support compulsory helmets in cars? Many more lives would be saved that way.
To argue one but not the other is inconsistent.
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TL yes I would wear one
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TL:
In direct response to your a, b and c:
a) If you read my posts above you will see that my thrust is exactly this, there is more to consider than just potential injury to the individual,
b) on what do you base your perception that the risk benefit does not justify it, and to that end, in your opinion what probability of saving a life/serious injury WOULD justify compulsory wearing of helmets?
c) surely making helmets compulsory IS doing something about road safety?!! I grant you, it is just one thing that needs to be done but nonetheless, it is a step in the right direction.
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TL:
And one more question, in your item (c) above you mention false comfort. Do you mean false comfort as in wearing a helmet will provide the wearer with the false comfort that they are less likely to be injured or killed?
Or do you mean compulsory wearing would provide the States with the false comfort that they have done enough to protect cyclists? If so I share your concern. However, if it became apparent that with the compulsory wearing of helmets the States were sitting on their hands then we could deal with that as a separate issue and push for the further necessary road safety measures you point to.
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Dave Haslam:
You could raise Franklin’s quotes in objection to any law. Franklin refers to ‘essential liberty’ and he makes the remark (if indeed it was his) in the context of the American Revolution and at that time. I do not consider not wearing a cycle helmet an essential liberty, and I am certain a man of Franklin’s calibre would not have had something so insignificant in mind at the time of writing.
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Truth Man – the fact is that the issue cannot be seen in isolation. If you simply wanted to save lives, the authorities would ban alcohol. After all, many die from it each year and it causes all sorts of problems for the families and friends of those with alcohol problems. But alcohol also has beneficial effects – most people enjoy a responsible drink and suffer no harm significant from it. In fact, in moderation it enhances lives.
No-one has answered the question raised above of how many injuries we are talking about. In Guernsey, I suspect that it is very few. So is that enough to justify discouraging greater cycle use, with all of the health and environmental benefits that brings? I do not think so.
I base my assessment of risk on my experience, both of my own cycling and also witnessing other cyclists on this island. There are quite a lot of the wobbly helmetless casual cyclists who would be the ones discouraged by forced helmet use, and yet I do not see them as being in danger of head injury as opposed to other forms of injury in the event that a car clips them.
As for my false comfort comment, I was meaning that there are other measures which I consider would actually encourage greater road safety, rather than complusory helmets which I think is a red herring. In addition, a study in the UK indicated that drivers took more risks with helmeted cyclists than helmetless ones, as they subconsciously see the helmet and consider the cyclist to be protected. The message from that study is that if you are concerned about cars hitting you, then you improve your chances of not being hit by not wearing a helmet!
But all of this debate has gone on a bit too long. After all, no-one is actually proposing this as law in Guernsey anyway!
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T L I think you are a very narrow minded person who needs to wake up to reality because you are thinking of your own selfish self and no one else.Just because you are dooolaaallyyy the rest can be saved
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TL:
I absolutely agree with your final paragraph, however I won’t deny I find the debate interesting. I will close by posting links to two documents, that are very informative and provide statistical analysis as opposed to personal opinion.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme1/ppr446.pdf
http://www.rospa.com/RoadSafety/info/cycle_helmets.pdf
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Interesting links Truth Man, thanks. But they are a mixed bag and pretty inconclusive. It goes without saying that if you are in a crash and hit your head, you are better off wearing a helmet, but it is the overall effect on society that I am looking at as well as whether in absolute terms it is a risk worth making a law over, given that there are plenty of other preventable injuries that we choose not to prevent because we all just want to be able to live our lives without unnecessary interference.
An interesting debate, but I suspect that we have taken it as far as it can go.
Coco – you call me doolally (or however you spell it)??? You are the one saying that you would wear a helmet when driving! I think most people would find that more doolally than wanting people to be able to choose whether they cycle without a helmet (but as you said “would”, I assume that you do not drive).
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Tl i do drive and would wear a helmot if it became law, i just answered your question.
i take it you do..
oh i will let you have the last say as i am getting bored with your arrogence
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actually coco, I asked if you wore one while driving, and then if you supported them being compulsory. I did not ask whether you would obey the law if they were made complusory.
The point I was making is that your argument why helmets are a must when cycling also applies to driving – so why do you think that someone is braindead for not wearing a helmet when cycling and yet you yourself choose not to wear a helmet when driving? It could also save your life in certain circumstances. Do you need something to be made law before you do something that you obviously feel is necessary to protect you?
The fact that I have a different outlook does not make me arrogant. I have not called you names, unlike you to me. Truth Man and I were perfectly able to engage in a little intelligent debate from differing stances. Can you?
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