Wait to see if Jersey will accept our waste
Thursday 18th February 2010, 2:30PM GMT.
CHIEF MINISTER Lyndon Trott has stepped into the controversy over Guernsey’s waste disposal strategy.
He is asking the Policy Council to recommend delaying all debates to give time to determine whether Jersey would take this island’s refuse. He will ask the council to support him placing a sursis to put off discussion on the planned incinerator until Jersey has decided whether it would accept Guernsey’s waste for its incinerator or not.
Jersey’s States will soon discuss the subject and Deputy Trott (pictured) believes it is vital that island deputies know that decision before making their own on the £93.5m. Suez plant.‘What has become obvious however, to all members of the States in recent weeks, is just how much enthusiasm there is within our community for the option of exporting waste to Jersey,’ he said in his latest regular column in the Guernsey Press.
A proposition on accepting Guernsey waste is expected to be placed before the Jersey States in the next six to eight weeks.
‘I am awaiting confirmation from my opposite number in Jersey as to precisely when their debate will take place.’
Deputy Trott said Jersey’s stance should be known by the end of April at the latest.
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Slight smell of stepping in and claiming the white knight role!
However ‘if’ it means that action is taking to seriously look at alternatives to the Suez proposal then I am not going to cut my nose off.
Jersey would benefit from having an incinerator actually running at full pelt and therefore produce less toxic emissions.
Yet Guernsey should then take a share of the produced incinerator ash remains as otherwise that would be having your cake and eating it!
But this is only a stop gap to allow time to investigate and proove other sustainable environmental solutions.
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Sounds like a shrewd political move, and in addition a common sense intervention. On this rare occaision I take my hat off to him for reflecting the will of the electorate and making moves to understand Jersey’s position in relation to our rubbish before any further decisions are taken here. Good call and should be commended.
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Be able to use one of his oil ships he has.
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This is supposed to be a good news story so why do I find myself increasingly suspicious?
This has all the hallmarks of an old Board of Administration type of chicanery.
If Jersey States work at the same speed as Guernsey by the time they have said Yes or No will it be too late to pull out of the ‘alleged’ deal with Suez ?
Go ahead with the requetes I say.
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This as I understand it would be illigel, under the transboundary shipment of waste legislation enacted in the baliwick. Jersey and Guernsey are different jurisdictions and the movement of msw for incineration is illigal (i.e. it is not considered a recovery option). Where as the shipment of waste as a recyclate for market is allowed. This is why the plan to ship waste to france would never have worked. The waste regulation department would be required by Guernsey and international law to delcine this request
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It would also break the proximity principle a key pillar in sustainability thinking, which is that waste should be dealt with as close to the generation point as possible, this is in guernsey! A scale thermal treatment plant, we environmentally (LCA tested) recycling and waste prevention measures, within the context of a well regulated waste industry and excellent stakeholder engagement (including th epublic) is the only way forward for Guernsey. (by the way I wont charge 250,000 GBP) for that free consultancy………..
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Or just scrap this stupid idea, stop beating around the bush, and go with the alternative.
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Jersey cannot accept waste for disposal, it is illegal under both Guernsey and International Law
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lyndon trying to make himself look good? he dosen’t give the impression that balancing on a fence for so long would be so easy for him. this ” see we do listen” just erupts my cycnical gland.
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apart from anything else, if we don’t think incineration is the answer and the pollution and co2 are the problem then sending it to jersey so they can have the pollution and co2 can’t be right can it?start again! force people to recycle, kerbside, compulsory for all.no excuses about age or flats, there must be a way, as a species we can.t work out a better way to deal with our rubbish?chuck it out and put the whole thing in scott ogiers hands, given free range i reckon we’d have a good solution.
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Isn’t it extraordinary that anyone would think that incineration is a bad idea for Guernsey but a good idea for Jersey?
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Not all is what it seems. This story, particularly paragraph two, is very misleading.
The story reads: “[Deputy Trott] will ask the [Policy] Council to support him placing a sursis to put off discussion on the planned incinerator until Jersey has decided whether it would accept Guernsey’s waste for its incinerator or not.”
But that attaches a degree of importance to the sursis which it most definitely does not deserve. In reality, the only effect of the sursis – made available in draft form only at this stage – would be to postpone debate on the Kuttelwascher requete and Lowe and Matthews amendments until the April meeting of the States of Deliberation.
The proposition lodged ‘au Greffe’ in Jersey reads: “To agree that the importation of waste into Jersey for treatment in the island’s energy from waste plant shall not proceed, and that no discussion or negotiations on this matter shall take place, until the principle of waste importation has been discussed and approved by the States Assembly.”
It appears likely that the above proposition will be debated by the Jersey States on 9th or 23rd March. But note what it proposes: that any consideration of importing waste should be held in abeyance until the States of Jersey debates a further report on the principle of importing. This initial motion will not provoke a decision from Jersey about whether to accept Guernsey’s waste.
So, by the end of March, the States of Jersey is likely merely to have resolved whether it wishes to consider a report on the principle of importing waste, and given that such a report would need to be written, published and debated by their States Assembly, and given that meaningful negotiations between the two islands might take some time, it is difficult to accept the notion behind the Trott sursis that postponing debate here until the end of April will definitely provide sufficient time to allow Jersey’s position to become clear.
It is possible that the primary effect of the sursis would be to add further confusion to next week’s debate while doing little or nothing to aid the evidence base available to States members when the requete and various amendments to it are eventually debated.
Postponing debate would, though, take us much nearer the date on which the Suez tender price becomes invalid.
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Find out the exact cost of bullding and running this incinerator and ALL the costs of running it.
Mortgage costs
Availability fee (even if no waste goes through the door)
Fixed fee
Gate fee (price per tonne of waste)
Disposal of Fly ash
Disposal of Bottom ash
Then get in touch with http://www.zerowaste.au.org and find out the alternatives.
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Deputy Fallaize says “Postponing debate would, though, take us much nearer the date on which the Suez tender price becomes invalid”
Matt – what is this date?
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Stephen,
11th July, 2010.
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We should all see this for the smoke screen it is, just like the debate on the closure of the primary schools Trott is just trying to look good to both sides. This is the best job he is ever going to get and will do all he can to keep it. Hopefully the Guernsey people will see through it and get rid of him at the earliest opportunity.
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I don’t buy this view that exporting to Jersey would be illegal. With Jersey’s express consent (and they may well declare that they actually WANT our waste), I fail to see how it can be a problem.
It is stated above in an earlier post that waste must be dealt with as closely as possible to its source. Well – let’s be sensible about that. Does every town in the UK have its very own waste processing site or does it share with neighbouring towns ? It is totally futile to have two separate large incinerators (or similar) 25 miles apart.
Yes – the Bailiwicks of Guernsey and Jersey are two legally separate jurisdictions. But to the outside world they barely recognise that point.
Maybe if we were a Confederation of the Channel Islands, both self-governing, then that potential hurdle wouldn’t be relevant either.
I see that the two anti-export to Jersey posts are from “Simon” and “Peter”. Neither appear to have posted on here before. Are they perhaps Jersey residents who may be against the importation of Guernsey’s waste ? Or maybe they are PSD employees ?
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Just check in with the islands waste regulation department……
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Ted
Who thinks that Ted? apart from the obvious. Enlighten us please mate.
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Peter
Have you ever heard of a “can-do” attitude ? You’d be amazed at what can be achieved if there’s a strong enough desire. Not all of us in life take no for an answer. That seems to be a civil service trait which explains a lot of what’s wrong in this island today.
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So if deputy Trott is aware of what MF says and i`m sure he is what on earth is he up too?. Is he just helping Bernie by playing for time by getting us so close to the sighning (with no decision by Jersey)that it will almost be a panic into accepting suez?. I`m not suprised there is such a lack of trust in some deputies when things like this come to light.
Ray
It seems you were right to be suspicious and now it`s been confirmed.
MF says paragragh two is misleading, well i would call it an outright lie
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Ted | February 19, 2010 at 12:28 pm | Isn’t it extraordinary that anyone would think that incineration is a bad idea for Guernsey but a good idea for Jersey?
I agree except that the Jersey plant is currently not running hot enough and therefore is producing more polution and nastey toxins as the incinerator is not hot enough to burn them. Hence feed it Guernsey’s waste too should enable better and proper incineration making what is produced less toxic (good for Jersey). And if Guernsey takes back it’s fair proportion of incinerated waste then the deal is not that uneven.
However it does not address the long term need to deal better with waste so at some point Jersey would again be burning inefficiently.
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David
Some excellent points on the can do attitude and the PR fuelled illegal to move waste lobby.
I wonder what your take is on the law officers apparent action of transferring the risk from the French Company Suez, to the Guernsey taxpayer.
Surely the Law Officers have a fiduciary duty to Guernsey and not a French company?
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Peter,
What about shipping RDF?
David,
Totally agree. A ‘can do’ attitude is exactly what has been missing.
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Stephen
The Law Officers certainly do owe fiduciary duty to the people of Guernsey, but as well know, lots of what seems to come out of St James’ Chambers these days doesn’t seem to follow that principle, including seemingly the shifting of risk under the Suez contract.
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The reason that we are staring down the barrel of the Suez proposal, is because the Department charged with finding our waste solution have wanted, from the very beginning, a single waste stream with large plant (maybe modular) at the end. Any attempt to move the policy away from that into a multi streamed waste management strategy has been met with the Departments active opposition. They have simply blocked it.
So who is going to be charged with approaching Jersey??? The same people I’m afraid,….so I am afraid I don’t hold out much hope!
A temporary arrangement with Jersey would be helpful in buying us time, but even without Jersey, we still don’t need Suez.
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This might be worth keeping an eye on
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2010/02/20/should-jersey-burn-guernseys-rubbish/
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Reduce the waste! Reduce the Waste! Reduce the waste! Come on deputies it’s really that simple!
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If only we had someone with common sense and commitment to our environment like Rosie in the States. Although even then we would need many more to outnumber the anti recycling/pro incineration brigade. WHY was curbside recycling voted out? WHY after all this time debating our waste problem has there been NO effort to reduce our waste. WHY? Can anyone tell me?
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Remind me again…are we against incinerators causing medical problems and burning useful resources, that could be profitably recycled, or just against Guernsey having to deal with its own waste problem?
If it isn’t right for here, how is it acceptable to ship OUR waste somewhere else?
I also think some of you have been sniffing the fly ash if you think that the Jersey population will willingly allow us to export our waste for them to deal with…..regardless of the financial incentive. Ask yourself, if this was the other way around would you want Jersey’s rubbish on our docks, on our roads and in our atmosphere?
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carts
I dont think it is so much of “is it right” as more a case of they may need it so there`s burns as it should and helping reduce pollution?. A benifit to both islands dont you think?.
Why do you suggest people of Guernsey are against dealing with its own waste?
Its simple we want to deal with it but not Bernies way.
On your last point then i would be happy to accept if it was a benifit to our island and the monster was already here. It just needs some rational thinking.
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Carts.
“our atmosphere” as you call it, is not just ‘our’ atmosphere. Gases are no respecters of geographical boundaries. What comes out of our incinerator chimney and what comes out of the Jersey one will pollute the atmosphere that the we all share. It is better therefore for everyone if any incinerator built is run as efficiently and smoothly as possible as that is the way to reduce the amount of pollutants that they release.
To do that requires that they are run at maximum capacity all the time. If they have to be switched off because there is not enough waste, then monitoring of the emissions stops, because they will produce more emissions the minute they start to cool down and are not burning efficiently. So…. would it be better for the islands if we had one incinerator burning efficiently or two that are both burning inefficiently?
Despite all that….. I don’t hold out much hope for the Jersey option because as I said earlier, the people who will be holding the talks with Jersey are not the people who want it to happen, so they are not going to try to sell the idea are they? As with Kerbside collections & anaerobic digestion they will be looking for the problems that they can hang their decision on rather than looking for solutions that would make it work. That’s the way this whole process has gone.
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“are we against incinerators causing medical problems and burning useful resources”
FWIW my position is as follows:
Not against incineration nor anti PSD nor Suez. The bit I either don’t understand or where we may have missed a trick is as follows:
We are putting the land up
We are putting the money up
We are paying £1.8million a year to the contractor
We are paying £11.44 approx per tonne
I believe that the contractor gets the recyclables out of the back to sell on on top.
If it’s our land, our loan and our waste then why are we not we not earning off what comes out of the back end of this?
Do we have so much lack of faith in our Island that we could not have contracted in the build and the management and turned this into a revenue stream for Guernsey rather than for a large PLC.
Heaven knows we could do with the cash.
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Heaven knows this is such an important decision for our island. Our whether to launch war moment, like the UK in 2003. 45 mins til destruction bs, Mon Cuet nearly full.
Diplomacy would have prevented the mass murder in Iraq but the Brits and Yanks didn’t want that,they had wide eyes for the oil.
For sure John Langlois is spot on in stating that the civil servants are totally wedded to MASS BURN.
Two million people took the streets of London to protest against the attack on Iraq but the government went ahead.
If our states goes against the will of the People on the whim of a few mass burn nutters then hey kids will start to die soon after they are born, recycling will grind to a halt, be turned around and sent to feed the beast. Guernsey will be poisoned day by day cept when the wind blows another way and drip,drops on Herm, Sark,Alderney too.
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