Waste export not so simple after all, says Public Services chief
Friday 19th February 2010, 2:29PM GMT.
Public Services’ preferred solution for the island’s waste is an incinerator at Longue Hougue, pictured, but many feel other options should be looked at, including sending it to Jersey – but it has emerged this week that that might not even be an option. (Picture by Brian Green, 0918692)
Minister Bernard Flouquet said the attempt by the Environment Scrutiny Panel to halt any notion of Jersey importing waste until its incinerator was running showed that the export idea was not as straightforward as had been suggested by some opponents of the planned incinerator.
And he said that political and public acceptance in Jersey was also just one of many issues that had to be considered before export could be a viable option.
‘Guernsey’s States have looked at this possibility in some detail before we embarked on a procurement process and it was decided this was not the best option for various reasons which we have spoken about before,’ he said.
‘Some people have dismissed those and said of course Jersey would want our waste. They might want to reconsider that certainty, based on the proposition now lodged with Jersey’s States.’
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It is now time for Bernard Flouquet to shut his mouth & keep his unpopular interfering opinions to himself.
He has a crystal ball out here & can predict the decisions Jersey will conclude then? His desperation to get this incinerator built regardless of what the electorate thinks is worrying.
It would appear that himself & Roy Bisson are the very few that want this total waste of money and environmentally redundant rubbish erected on the island.
Our rubbish is needed by Jersey. The extra income from us plus the fact that they will have enough fuel to keep their monster fed & up to its optimum efficient burn temperature is a luxurious gift horse they won’t refuse.
In an ideal world we would not need to rely on anybody for anything. We do & probably always will now.
We get our electricity from France piggy backed through Jersey. This is just another short term solution and a stop gap until a better alternative can be found.
Soon enough electricity will be provided from the sea. Well before then an alternative method of getting rid of our rubbish will be found.
Without the need for a wasted quarter of a billion pounds sat doing nothing other than waiting for yet another tender for its demolition.
Jersey has already given us an indication our rubbish is valued fuel for them. So why does Flouquet feel the need to stir up political nonsense that quite probably will not even arise?
He really does need to go now. The man has lost it in a big way. Maybe a career as a double glazing salesman will suit him down to the ground. No doubt he will be featured on Rogue Traders!
The islands coming together with solutions is a move that has been needed for quite some time now. Relations will be strengthened & numerous millions can start to be saved on both sides.
It is precisely this kind of relationship politicians on both islands have been speaking about for quite some time. Lets see this as an opportunity, for a change, rather than an inconvenience.
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Another foot in the mouth comment fro Mr Floquet.
If Jersey’s plant works and they can receive Guernsey waste then all well and good.
If however Jersey has problems with the commissioning of its plant, then it makes the 2 year guarantee of Suez look more of a doomsday scenario than it is today.
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Bernie does seem to be getting more desperate by the day.
It is nothing more than scaremongering to say that Jersey wo’nt accept our waste until their incinerator is built, duh, tell us something we don’t know.
Does he expect us to believe that Suez would accept waste before their incinerator was built.
Get real Bernie.
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Vitally the extra rubbish will enable Jersey to burn at optimun levels (which are currently failing to occur reading reports) and therefore produce the least toxic emmisions.
Guernsey will need to dispose of their proportion of ash waste though I feel.
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I agree totally with all that is said in this article and would add that when listening to Barry Brehaut on last Sundays ‘phone-in he admitted that Jersey’s incinerator would benefit from our waste by burning more efficiently and would therefore be less polluting!
This must then mean that these plants do produce polution but Flouquet and his supporters maintain that there is definately no polution whatsoever, someone is not telling the truth.
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There’s a few interesting incinerator comments on the Isle of Man site manxforums.com
Theirs cost £44 million about five years ago.Lot’s of secrecy over the contract re gate fees,fixed fees and an ‘availability fee’
Problems with what to do with fly ash and bottom ash.Suez appears to have lumped that expensive problem onto the IOM government
When there is insufficient rubbish to burn
( quite frequent) they keep it going with oil or diesel
The electricity produced costs more than other methods so it looks like they are not happy bunnies
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Ray
Quite right, apart from 1 point.
£44M is what they were told it would cost, £80M is what the final bill actually was.
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A few questions on exporting waste to Jersey:
1. Does Jersey’s public want Guernsey’s or anyone else’s waste e.g. what would Guernsey’s public mood be if the shoe was on the other foot? We all know the answer to that one!
2. How would Guernsey overcome the Basel Convention’s prohibition on exporting waste?
3. What happens to Guernsey’s waste when the Jersey plant isn’t working i.e. where will it be piled up? St Sampsons harbour?
4. Where will Guernsey’s share of the bottom ash and other residues get dumped? On Guernsey?
5. Could Guernsey be held to ransom if Jersey unilaterally decided to increase the disposal price or just stopped accepting Guernsey’s waste deliveries?
6. What unloading/storage/loading infrastructure & ships would be required to export the waste to Jersey, what would it cost and how long would it take to get planning and be built?
7. If one of Guernsey’s waste delivery ships sank in the Channel would Guernsey be responsible for the environmental clean up costs? Can this be insured against and, if so, at what cost?
8. Who outside the Channel Islands is likely to object to the waste export proposal – France, the UK, Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace etc?
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Smudger
Sorry – but you need to find more of a “can do” attitude rather than trying to find reasons not to do it. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. In answer to your numbered questions:
1. Jersey has already committed to building its plant and its already part-built. It realises that it needs Guernsey’s waste in order to make it work economically. How do you know what Guernsey’s stance would be if the boot was on the other foot ? We’ll never know, but bigoted attitudes like that are clear evidence of why the two islands are spectacularly poor at working together when the mutual benefit is so evident. Its only going to save BOTH islands several million pounds per annum after all !
2. If the two Bailiwicks agree a joint waste disposal strategy, driven by needs of proximity and economies of scale, then its most unlikely that the Basle Convention would be an issue.
3. Don’t know but I’m sure that its not beyond us to find a solution. After all, we’ve got several years of landfill capacity left at Mont Cuet to provide a safety valve.
4. Ditto.
5. No – that’s what well-drafted contracts are for. If Jersey signs a contract to take Guernsey’s waste for a specific period and on agreed terms then that’s what Jersey would be held to, and would face the civil consequences for breach of contract (as indeed would Guernsey).
6. Obviously a shipping facility would need to be built at St Sampsons Harbour. RG Falla estimated the cost at £4m, I understand. Ships can be chartered as necessary. There are bound to be plenty of them available even if the two that the States of Guernsey already owns might not be suitable.
7. Of course it can be insured against, and would need to be factored into the overall costs. Liability for the clean-up costs would depend on whether the shipping company was found liable. if so, then its on their insurance policy.
8. Why would they ? Its all within Bailiwick waters isn’t it ? Its not nuclear or contaminated waste is it ? Are you trying so say that neighbouring towns in the UK who share waste disposal strategies for similar reasons face such problems ?
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Smudger
To question 2
Aren`t we exporting toxic ash from the incierator to France? that seems to be acceptable.
3. Probably the same thing that will happen if our plant is not running? stored until it is.
4. France :)
5. Holding to ransom is illegal, I think.
Anyway we could just let them win the mauratti to soften them up a bit.
7. No worries there mate, it will all end up in France.
What would happen if the ship carrying the real nasty toxic stuff to France sank?.
8. Roy Bisson and Bernie Flouquet while on holiday in France :).
Anything else i can help with?.
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Has anybody read the very revealing report of a letter to PSD by Advocate and former Deputy, John Langlois on behalf of the Independent People’s Panel on Waste, which was set up by the former PSD Minister, the late Bill Bell ? Its extremely critical of the totally dismissive attitude of Deputy Bell’s successor, Deputy Flouquet, saying that “Public Service was intent on selecting an incinerator from the very start of the tendering process”. Deputy Langlois’ letter makes it clear that the Panel was not willing to say what PSD wanted to hear and it was as a result swept under the carpet.
Startling stuff, but actually why are we surprised?
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Very true, during a meeting with Dep Bell at PSD, he told me as far as PSD were concerned, incineration was the only option they would consider.
I sent my proposal to the Peoples panel, JL replied that he was not allowed to consider it.
Nothing surprises me anymore.
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You’re right Paul – it’s high time Guernsey and Jersey started co-operating more on matters of common interest – especially when there is mutual benefit.
I sometimes wonder whether some people think that inter-Bailiwick co-operation is some kind of conspiracy to create a “United States of Channel Islands.” Of course it’s nothing of the sort – independent nation states have been co-operating since creation in matters of trade – it’s called “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” on a national level. Silly parochialism should not interfere with common sense.
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Stephen John – to me that 2 year warranty is the most concerning aspect of all this. When one considers that you can get 5 year warranties on cars worth under £10k, it’s absolutely astounding that the States accepted a 2 year warranty on equipment worth over £90m!
I’ve seen tourists drive harder bargains in a Cairo street market!
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Paul Le Page
It’s strange that the two year guarantee and the Law Officer’s transferring risk from Suez to the taxpayer, have been subject to so little comment.
Bit late after paying the £93 plus million, and being left with a white elephant after a few years.
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I see a lot of people in the course of a day and yesterday I was listening to the states debate and the majority of the people I conversed with regarding the incinerator were in favour of it, when these past few weeks people were against it,I wonder have the vociferous few put people off or have the pro incinerator just remained silent.I know many people were against spending the money rather than the incinerator itself.
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Useful link to thisisJersey – http://www.thisisjersey.com/2010/02/25/this-plant-does-not-have-over-capacity/
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Friday morning States session just finished.
Several deputies bleating that PSD have only done what the States instructed them to do.At last one deputy .. Hadley … stands up and says that the States only went that way in the past because of PSD’s insistence on prodding them in that sole direction.
Some skullduggery afoot now. Trott has asked for a session in camera to discuss financial matters. Anything done behind closed doors will only enrage the protesters further.
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Hopefully this is past news now that Jersey have reconfirmed their stance (from over a year ago) that Jersey will take waste from Guernsey, so there really is no reason left for those in favour (thankfully) to go ahead with the Suez proposal.
A light at the end of this very doom laden tunnel that Guersey seemed blinkered to go down.
Can only hope that the tide has turned.
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5.45pm Nice result – Suez Out PLUS (if he has any honour left) Flouquet out.
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Well come on all you States bashers give credit where it is due, they have knocked out Suez,and I say thank you very much, so lets give them a round of applause instead of continually putting them down.
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Ray
Just a couple of points, firstly the decision to go with incineration was made by the States, not by PSD or Bernard Flouquet personally and that was the point states members were making. It was the States that got this issue consistently wrong at least that is right up until yesterday. I never changed my mind on this issue from day one when the first incinerator courtesy of Lurgi was proposed back in 2001 or whenever it was by the Board of Administration. It is dinosaur technology and Guernsey deserves better. I have every confidence that we CAN reduce our waste stream significantly as a community and treat what residue there is left with a series of small solutions Anaerobic Digestion being one of them. On the issue of the States sitting in camera, it was not to discuss financial matters but for States members to hear the legal points that might arise from the cancellation of the contract which are matters confidential at this time. I think the States took the right decision last night and what we need to do now is take the public with us and get everyone signed up to minimising the amount of waste we all produce, we need to get our recycling targets above 70% in the future and I believe that is perfectly possible and for those who say the decision is a disaster I can only say to them to look at it as a golden opportunity to show the rest of the islands what can be done when a small community pulls together.
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Dave Jones
I’m 100% with you re the future waste strategy but you can’t argue against the bleeding obvious.
PSD has had a one track mind for years,probably because the same blinkered backroom team that worked on Lurgi were given the job when that was thrown out.
They did not present the States with any choice but to go for mass burn.
Mary Lowe for Chief Minister and Rosie Dorey as her chief advisor!
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Deputy Jones….Don’t you agree that to take the Public forward with the aggressive recycling targets that PSD needs a new face, Deputy Flouquet will only remind us of everything that has been wrong so far. We need to believe everything we are asked to do comes from someone who firmly believes in recycling in all its forms. Like it or not on a personal level, the States needs metal to do the right thing for Guernsey and replace Deputy Flouquet ASAP. After all he did say he would go himself!
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Paul
There is no doubt amongst any of the States members that PSD carried out what the States instructed them to do and several members made that point during the debate, Deputy Flouquet is the head of that department but like everyone on his board he has one vote. He did put forward an option to the States to preclude incineration from the tender process the States rejected that option, he did put forward the option of exploring the option of exporting waste to Jersey two years ago, the States rejected that proposition. The States went on to reject on at least two occasions kerbside recycling and ended up voting for the Suez proposals after rejecting many of the things laid before them by PSD and led by Deputy Flouquet. You ask the question as to whether he should continue to lead PSD, I think he should, Paul PSD is about a lot more than waste management, they have a huge portfolio of public services Harbours, Airport, Roads, Sewage, Water etc.
My view is that Deputy Ogier who is deputy Minister of PSD should lead a sub group heading up the new waste minimisation strategy together with seconding on to this group appropriate people from the private sector to get this thing moving. Deputy Flouquet said in his summing up after the Suez contract had been terminated by the States on Friday that he would now get fully behind this new initiative and I truly believe him. As I say there is much to do within PSD that does not include waste management. Of course he may consider that he does not wish to stay, I have no idea as we have not spoken on that particular subject. I do know talking to Scott a couple of years ago that he does not want any leadership roll in is content to be an active deputy. Bernard has taken a lot of personal abuse over the decisions taken by the States; it is the States that has consistently voted for the incineration route even though at several stages they were offered a get out of jail card. I know as a Minister that get blamed personally for the policies of Housing although I am one member of the board elected to represent the Housing board at Policy Council as its Minister.
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