Suez out by a vote
Saturday 27th February 2010, 2:30PM GMT.
Protestor Tash Phillips caught the mood of the day with her poster which predicted how the States would eventually vote. (Picture by Adrian Miller, 0923604)
THE States yesterday threw out the incinerator.
In a controversial vote, 21 members to 20 opted to dump Suez Environnement’s plan for a £93.5m. facility at Longue Hougue.
But a storm surrounded the vote as all members of the Environment Department abstained after being given legal advice in the first behind closed doors States session that taking part would prejudice the Suez planning application.
Based on previous voting patterns, four of the five members were expected to support the Suez plant.
The majority of deputies who spoke in support of Mary Lowe’s amendment said that the Assembly must be clear that a vote in favour of it would be a clear indication that there would be a radical rethink of the island’s waste strategy to focus on aiming for zero waste.
‘It’s a day in history for Guernsey,’ Deputy Lowe said. ‘At long last the States, and indeed with public support, will now go forward aiming for a zero waste strategy.
‘But the public are going to have to recognise that if they want us to get rid of the incinerator there is going to be some pain.’
How they voted on the Lowe amendment
For: Deputies Brehaut, Kuttelwascher, Gollop, Matthews, Steere, Storey, Collins, Ogier, Rihoy, Fallaize, Lowe, Guille, Jones, Le Lievre, Dorey, Le Pelley, McManus, Brouard, De Lisle, Dudley-Owen and Sillars. Total: 21
Against: Deputies McNulty Bauer, Domaille, A. Langlois, Gallienne, Gillson, Trott, Stephens, Mahy, Spruce, Adam, Flouquet, Garrett, Laine, S. Langlois, Parkinson, Quin, O’Hara and Hadley, and Alderney representatives Willmott and Walden. Total: 20
Abstained: Deputies Tasker, Honeybill, Paint, Sirett, Le Sauvage and Maindonald. Total: 6
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I know who I will not vote for in future elections! “Against: Deputies McNulty Bauer, Domaille, A. Langlois, Gallienne, Gillson, Trott, Stephens, Mahy, Spruce, Adam, Flouquet, Garrett, Laine, S. Langlois, Parkinson, Quin, O’Hara and Hadley, and Alderney representatives Willmott and Walden. Total: 20″ Those lot!
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Fantastic news for the islands
Good luck to all the altenatives in what will always result in a better more cost effective enviromentally friendly solution whoever gets the job.
And even better the atricle has provided me with a list of deputies who dont deserve a vote in 2012.
I bet those cornflakes taste extra sour today eh Roy!! Say hi to Bernie from all of us This is Guernsey anti-Suez campaigners.
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GG & The Man
Sad as ever. This was not about personalities.
As States members recognised, this was about YOUR elected representatives carrying out their duties as prescribed by YOUR Government.
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A fantastic result, despite an overwhelming majority of ministers voting for the incinerator.
I hope that the public remembers who voted how when it comes to the next election. Goodbye to Trott, Flouquet, Parkinson, Mahy, Adam, McNulty-Bauer and O’Hara.
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Fantastic result and well done to the 21!! A special mention for Deputy Maindonald. What is the point of her being a deputy when she feels the need not to vote on such an important issue?
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I`m not sure having Bernie in charge is the right way forward given his all out stance on incineration and not willing to listen to alternitives?. I fear we will have a diss heartened leader with a bit of a chip on his shoulder?.
I think Scott Ogier would be a far better candidate to take this forward mainly because it is what i believe he wanted all along.
Didn`t Bernie say he would resign if the suez vote failed ???.
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Quote
“But the public are going to have to recognise that if they want us to get rid of the incinerator there is going to be some pain.”
here we go,
as soon as one of them mentions pain you know
it’s going to cost
as for zero waste “dream on”
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A huge anchor that had been holding back progress in recycling and waste diversity has now been lifted.
We can only hope that the States will now embrace what we and others have been attempting to do for the last few years.
Diversity is where its at, no big multinationals please Deputies.
Some are already talking of draconian this and compulsory that. Please take a breath, calm down and liaise with those offering various alternative strategies.
Together we can show the public that the correct decision was taken yesterday.
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Roy
Wrong (again! As you have been all along)
This was exactly about personalities.
This was about people admitting they were wrong in the fact of outstanding evidence.
The ones that didnt have the strength of character to do that dont deserve to have MY vote.
Thankfully there was enough common sense and lack of ego for the right result to come forward.
As for the ones who’s ego’s wont let them admit they are wrong……. well you call us sad……..
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At last a deciaion based on what the people really want, but given the numbers against an outdated and expensive way to dispose of our waste, why was the vote so close? Just more deputies out of touch with those who elected them. If all we are going to do is burn our waste, why bother putting out Mont Cuet? Why not build a chimney over it and filter the smoke? I have read through the Vantage waste recycling proposition on the web and it seem like the way to go, and we could lead the way by refining our own bio diesel and ethanol to run our vehicles without using as much in the way of fossil fuels…heres hoping….
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A big thanks to the 21 deputies that stood up for the public. This is the right decision.
The Guernsey public have already shown that they are willing to recycle in spite of the current state of recycling facilities.
We now have to show that the deputies faith in us has not been misplaced.
I also believe that the public opinion on this issue was not just limited to a small number of well organised individuals, as over the last few weeks I did not meet a single person that agreed with the incinerator.
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At last the people have been heard, well do to those who listened.
Lets move on to a modern alternative good luck to PSD(Scott) now you have a madate you can work with!
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Bernard Flouquet
Your resignation is gladly accepted. Time you went. Or was that just an empty offer?
Like bcb has stated above. Scott Ogier would be the perfect replacement for your position. So cya!
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Is anyone going to look into ‘lettergate’?
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Where a Member has an interest, Bryn, they are required to act in accordance with the Rules of Procedure, which is exactly what I did.
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Fantastic news.
A breath of fresh air thinking.
I have kept a seperate note of who did not vote for this, so I will be prepared to know who never to vote for and remiond family members of who those 20 were too, make that also those who abstained.
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I think it was a good result for Guernsey however before we start writing obituaries for half the House, we should remind ourselves that the States of Guernsey is not a one issue government.
I’m sure everyone here is wise enough to vote on all the issues come election day, not just this one.
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I believe the States decision yesterday makes me once again me proud to be a Guern.. I feel the change of direction shows that we truly live in a democratic island.
Now is not the time to malign the ‘For’ voters or ‘Against’ (depending on ones personal view) All States members carried out their role with sincerity, conviction and with respect.
Now is not the time talk of who to vote for based on yesterday, but, a time to put shoulders to the wheel (as somebody said yesterday in their closing speech)
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Hopefully Deputy Flouquet will now resign as he stated. This completly new direction for Guernseys Waste needs someone who is completly committed to it, such as Deputy Ogier. Will he go? Don’t hold your breath as he and Trott try to hold on to their little empire, wait for Trott to be very active in the next few weeks so that he can try and hold on to the few votes he needs for next election.
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Interesting Sam,
What was this interest as listening to the debate, you / it wasn’t made clear?
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All those hoping Bernard Flouquet’s going, I’d think again. He’s always got an excuse, this time it’s that this was a different decision to what he had said, quickly typed:
“Well I think there’s a certain time on radio guernsey I said if this plant was to go ahead and it failed, and caused upheaval to the population of Guernsey, I’d have to resign.
This is a different circumstance, the States have decided to not go ahead with the plant, I therefore have no intensions of resigning.”
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Over here, whilst we will welcome your money to dispose of your garbage,were you not a little premature in saying Jersey will take your rubbish.Whilst we know you are like us, cash strapped, you need your loot to install a sewage system that actually doesn’t pollute the sea, and an airport that could at least take a 737 or an Airbus 320 , no propostion has been lodged in the States, and there is considerable disquiet, especially from nearby residents as to the impact of 30,000 more tons of garbage on their doorstep. So it is not a done deal by any means , and the latest information is that in a few years we will not have any spare capacity, as we burn more garbage due to the cost of exporting recyclables, which are worthless from a monetary point of view… Then there is the ash,but thats another story.
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Sorry, Bryn, but you obviously didn’t listen hard enough. It was made clear in the debate (by the Deputy Presiding Officer). It was not reported in the newspaper.
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So! No incinerator. What a testement that is to our goverment’s credibility. A 180 degree turn on an issue that as a result is going to land us with a bill of several million pounds and nothing to show for it. O yeah congratulations!
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Now come on you islanders lets get behind our States members and go forward with their plans for recycling etc, I listened to the debate on the radio and I think Bernard Floquet dealt with the whole debate with integrity and I admire his stance at the end. I do not know BF at all but he has been well bashed and I think it is time for all this to stop and for us to support PSD for the future of our island, and it would not go amiss for some of those campaigners to say thank you ( I know some of them have) and for some people who want Bernards head on a plate think again, he was only doing what was asked of him.
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Where is Rosie since Friday, has she had to have a lie down or is she still partying, what is she going to do now?
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@John, better than having a hundred million pounds wasted and a huge giant bonfire to show for it.
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No need to apologise Sam, if it is in the public domain (I’m assuming it is as you state I missed it) then I don’t quite understand your or the GP’s reticence. What’s the interest?
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well done!! lets see how many more years this mess will take us to sort out. this will come back to bite us….big time.
i can just see it now…a huge pile of recycled rubbish out side every house and everybody moaning about how much it has cost us to get rid of it all.
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I have been one of the biggest critics of the PSD/Suez plan and have given Bernie some stick.
But he was the front man for it, and should have expected some stick.
A lot has been said about personal attacks and insults to Bernie.
I have not intentionally indulged in such activities and if anything I have said upset Bernie personally, I apologise for that.
I may have given Roy Bisson a bit more, but he deserved it.
I was actually quite impressed by Bernies conduct in the States on Friday.
He stood his ground and defended his position, as he was supposed to do.
When the Lowe ammendment was passed, I believe Bernies speech was instramental in convincing some Suez supporters to switch camps and support the Kuttlewascher requete.
Some Deputies speeches were truly appaling, unresearched, and arrogantly ignorant of public opinion.
One actually claimed that the entire populations of St Martin and St Saviour were in full support of Suez.
If anything, from my point of view, Bernie came out of Fridays sitting in the top ten of being honest and doing his job properly.
If he carries that performance into the new waste strategy we could be on to a winner.
I certainly would look forward to working with him if he continues that way.
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I didn’t apologise, Bryn; I merely corrected your ignorance.
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What an absolute joke Guernsey is? I will never vote again and does anyone else feel Guernsey states and non-party politics is a farce, and embarrasment and no wonder we are in a complete mess.
If the IDC are not allowed to vote then the IDC should not be made up of states members. How dare a politician I voted for not use their vote on some rule that it may prejudice their ability to make a decision on the IDC? What if Fallaize and De lisle were on the IDC would they have abstained?
As for saving the environment, lets ship our waste using enviromental container ships and use their incinerator which of course in total is more enviromentally friendly.
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Well I think it is bloody fantastic. never mind the 21:20, what is important is the 38:2.
The vast majority of our representatives have voted resoundingly to support a low tech waste minimisation strategy.
We had to make a fair amount of noise, but they did listen in the end.
Individuals pulling together can and do make a difference.
This is a superb result for Guernsey.
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Do believe if we work hard at it as a population,put our shoulders to the wheel eh.
Surely in two years time we won’t have forgotten, We will not Vote for the Zero 20.
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Sam
Why the reluctance to state what your interest is? Should it not be public information?
Unfortunately I was not able to listen to the radio broadcast so I am unaware of what I missed, could you enlighten me please?
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I beg your pardon? I’m ignorant because I failed to hear something on the radio? I suppose I’d rather be a bit hard of hearing than outright rude and insulting. Talking of ignorant, you have failed to state what ‘interest’ stopped you, a politician from voting on such an important issue. Still waiting.
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I wholly concur with Islanders assessment. It was a great day for the States and a great day for Democracy.
Hopefully the whole of the island can now move forward towards waste minimisation. You never know, Guernsey could be a beacon of waste management excellence in years to come.
Exciting and positive days.
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OMG…. more money waisted..
And we’ll still end up with a pile of rubbish we can’t recycle. and no body wants
What a “F”ing mess we’re in..
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I hope you all remember who voted against the incinerator when in 5 years time we still don’t have a waste strategy, Mont Cuet is overflowing and there’s rubbish piling up in the streets … :)
Seriously, as others have said, its time to move onward and upwards. What we need now is clear, focussed, informed, considered, consensus,yet speedy government action. As if ….
On the subject of personal attacks, Total Waste has it spot on ( good luck in the new waste strategy ( if and when it arrives ) by the way ). Bernie, as head of PSD, was correctly carrying out his duties as head of PSD as he had been instructed to do by the States. What else could he do ? i suppose if Carol Steere and Education go against the States and close a couple of primary schools they’ll be applauded for making the right decision for the island as a whole ( and a decision that would save money not throw it away … ) ????
bcb … I beleive what Bernie, ever the politician, said is he would resign if Suez failed, not the vote on Suez. Since we arent going ahead it cant fail … hmm. Like many others I interpreted his words to mean ” fail in the debate ” … I would also note that he made no effort to clarify his position until this morning ( when I was fully expecting him to announce his resignation live on air …… how naive am I? )
One final warning …. when the bill for a “zero waste strategy” comes in be prepared for a shock ….. segregated kerbside collection of everything, for instance, isn’t going to be cheap, and we’d have to go on paying it for ever …. and a small amount for ever is a lot more even than 93 million ….
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Questions for a members of those supposed to represent us
SIX people (Deputies Tasker, Honeybill, Paint, Sirett, Le Sauvage and Maindonald)need to seriously consider if being on the Environment Department allows them to perform the duties that the electorate voted them in to do i.e to represent islanders who voted for them on important decisions.
On EVERY decision that may involve a future Environment Department application, are they required to abstain from voting? If this is not the case on previous waste votes, who instigated this move to abstain as to me this stinks of vote tampering.
We need to get 3 votes to win so lets take out the Environment Department given 4 are in favour…
Taking the beanjar
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Toby,
spot on post. Zero waste is fictional and will never happen . Segregated Kerbside recycling infrastructure will mean a lot of jobs that we can not fill and not to mention support of 60,000 people of which lots live in flats and do not have the space to sort their waste.
A high proportion can not be bothered to do any recycling today but then again 24 v 22 would have carried on with Suez given the island needs a real method used globally by every country to dispose of the waste created by the island.
What next…windmills and solar power or shall we use a nuclear plant in France…(I am being silly)
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PC
Democracy is a bitch, whether we like it or not the concept of a large EfW/Incinerator is dead in the water.
What the island needs to now do is look for ways to minimise its waste and modulate its treatment of all of its streams.
One of the problems the Island has it puts too much emphasis on the negatives. Take your ‘flats in town’ argument for a moment.
Ok, let’s say that there may be some areas of SPP where it might not be practical for the residents to segragate. Rather than bin kerb side recycling, why not exempt a few streets? Surely getting 95% of domestic waste recycled is better than having none because one or two streets have difficulties?
“A high proportion can not be bothered to do any recycling today ” Obviously its an educational, supported by legislative change.
Two generations ago people will would have worn fox furs. The last generation wouldn’t. The last geneartion smoked in front of their kids; this gneration wouldn’t. This generation is struggling with the concept of recycling; my children are being taught about environment from a very young age; their generation won’t.
It’s a generational thing.
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@ Bryn & Sam:
Forgive my ignorance, but (Sam), aren’t you also an advocate/barrister? If I am correct in believing you are, then Bryn, isn’t it wholly possible that Sam is not able to publicly state what her interest is for judicial/legal privilege reasons? I am merely playing Devils Advocate here, so don’t shoot me down yet!
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PC
It is not really fair to castigate the members of the Environment department from abstaining from the vote when the company who would build the incinerator has a live application in at the Environment department (Planning Section) on which they would have to take a view, of course they could have voted which would mean they would then have had to excuse themselves from the decision process on the planning application. Environment like housing sit as a quasi judicial board and have to be very careful in the way that they behave in order to treat every application impartially and I would suggest if you have taken a political view on something which you later are required to treat impartially it would be very difficult to do so. Any subsequent appeal could easily prove that members of the Environment board were either prejudiced if the planning application was rejected or if they voted enthusiastically in favour of the plant after the application had been received. Anyone challenging the application could argue that they were not impartial. I think you are right in one respect, in that Planning and the “Environment “ do not sit well together in the same department and it is something that Shepley identified in his report and something the States need to sort out quickly to avoid these awkward conflicts happening again. As for vote tampering, nothing could be further from the truth; I called for an adjournment at ten past five that evening in order to double check with the law officers exactly what the position was for members of the Environment Department in voting in this debate, the Deputy Bailiff granted that adjournment after putting it to States members and they agreed by a substantial majority that we should adjourn to find out. Even when I raised the point with the Deputy Bailiff I knew I ran the risk of losing the vote and the Suez project proceeding but you have to be scrupulously honest in politics and sometimes that means putting your own beliefs at risk. The rest as they say is history.
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Valeite.
Hello…. I am still here! Judging by some of the negative comments on here, there is still work to do. Waste minimisation and Zero Waste strategies are being implemented all over the world…… Guernsey is so lucky that we have changed course in the nick of time because Zero Waste is the future…. not burning resources. Wealthy communities like ours, where consumption is endemic, need to demonstrate their willingness to do the right thing and return those resources back into circulation for the next generation to enjoy. This will do our reputation a huge amount of good as well as saving us money while avoiding the environmental and health consequences of incineration.
But we all need to get behind the policy and believe in our ability to make it succeed. We are no different from other communities that are making it work. We need business and community participation and strong, creative, determined and resourceful leadership.
We should all feel, as Neil says, excited and positive about this. More of the ‘we can do this’ and less of the OMG’s etc!
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immediate steps that should be implemented to now move forward:
1. introduce recycling of all plastics (not just types 1 and 2)
2. take steps to make it feasible for businesses to recycle. My understanding is that at present most do not because it is a huge cost. The amount of waste from offices is staggering.
Then, we can tinker with the details like whether kerbside recycling is better than relying on peoples’ good will, etc.
But a swift move to increase the ability to take more recyclable waste from those who wish to recycle must be the priority.
Then we can ship the rest to Jersey for a few years while we put in place a proper long-term strategy.
The hard work has only just begun.
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Toby,
“One final warning …. when the bill for a “zero waste strategy” comes in be prepared for a shock ….. segregated kerbside collection of everything, for instance, isn’t going to be cheap, and we’d have to go on paying it for ever …. and a small amount for ever is a lot more even than 93 million ….”
Did you really think that the Suez deal was a one off payment of £93m ?
Suez themselves reported the figure for the 25 year deal to be worth £194m, to this you need to add the debt servicing costs as well as the loss of revenue to PSD (which was included in the Billet of July). You would have ended up with a cost of around £250m for the 25 year period or ~£10m per annum and this excludes any levy on top of the burning cost by your parish for the actual collection service. With the suez plan you also lost any potential for rental from the site as the whole site would be used. I’m sure a large % of the site will still be required but there is now the potential for a modest revenue stream from rental which could directly subsidise a zero waste policy.
We have also now got ourselves out of a lot of risk from a very short guarantee period. We now have the potential to create new jobs and business opportunities for locals. Those new employees will pay tax, SS, spend their money locally etc. You loose this potential by paying a non-local multi national to make your problem magically disappear.
We have also avoided the very real danger that private enterprise could have offered commercial waste producers a viable cheaper alternative which would have left the Guernsey tax payer with much higher gate prices due to the fixed cost pricing that was predominate in the Suez contract.
Waste is a resource with real value, why do you think there are commercial waste service providers on the Island? there are many waste types that can be exported at considerable profit, take a look at the current UK prices for recycled materials http://www.letsrecycle.com/prices/
Any way its pointless me yabbering about Suez.
I know we can make this work and I know we will all be better off (in many ways) as a result.
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Well, now, Bryn. If you didn’t hear it on the radio and you have not heard of it by some other means, then by definition you are ignorant of the matter. How is Sam’s (or my) comment insulting?
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I have no idea where some get the idea that this is “Great for Guernsey”.
While it may be great in some ways that we now won’t have an incinerator it is in no way a great decision for Guernsey on the international stage on so many levels, which Mr Trott has gathered a lot of air miles in promoting.
How can the PSD sign a contract with a large commercial company such as Suez without a no penalty get out clause.
£3 million quid…!!! are the departments in some secret competition to see which can waste the most amount of money.
Personally I think all the States members need to be blamed for this debacle, it was after all presented by PSD to the States and passed.Now, once public feeling and perhaps some deputies doing the homework they should have done before the first vote the whole thing is thrown out.
Result..: 1) No defined future waste strategy apart from pie in the sky “zero waste” nonsense and tree hugging dreams of Guernsey being at the forefront of waste disposal.
2) Guernseys commercial credibility blown out the water and a £3m+ bill for nothing.
A victory for last gasp democracy maybe, certainly NOT a victory for Guernsey, all this shows is how disjointed and indecisive our Government is.
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When Island wide voting comes in will I have any say,as a Guernsey resident,on the success or otherwise of the two Alderney politicians who voted in favour of the £250M monster?
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Sam
Why won’t you disclose what your interest was? If it’s already been stated in public then why the reluctance to state it here?
Your silence will only get people thinking that you have something to hide.
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GregR
The term ‘Zero Waste’ clearly bothers you. Maybe you would prefer ‘Towards Zero Waste’ or even ‘Waste Minimisation’. The States have now endorsed a waste strategy that is based on waste minimisation….. that means designing a system that actively encourages the amount of residual waste to reduce year on year until we get the minimum that we can manage. That may never be ‘zero’ but that doesn’t matter. The important thing is that you plan to reduce the size of the problem and you do not plan to allow the problem to grow. Not pie in the sky or even that scary……. just requires creative thinking and leadership.
Also, I don’t agree with these scare stories about how big companies won’t want to deal with us now. Who are these big companies and just what are they planning to do here that we can’t do ourselves?
I do agree though, that there probably won’t be anyone rushing to offer us a mass-burn incinerator now……… sounds like a plus point to me!
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GregR. does the R stand for “Really don’t know”?
The £3m would be for their costs incurred to date in tendering and making the application to Evironment etc. It won’t be a “penalty” clause!
If someone had a bunch of hills that they wanted you to level and build some houses on, and then, after you’ve levelled the land decided, actually, no, don’t want the houses, would you not want to be paid for the ground work??
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Ted – are you for real? of course Sam’s response was insulting. To call a member of the electorate ignorant because they had not heard the answer to a simple legitimate question which they posed to a Deputy could be nothing other than insulting. She did not say that he was ignorant of the facts. She said that she was correcting Bryn’s “ignorance” i.e a character trait. The fact that she did not answer his legitimate question shows that she was not correcting his ignorance of the facts.
I can only think that Sam is not planning to stand for election next time, as I cannot recall an example of a politician being more curtly rude and insulting to a member of the public on an electoral question.
Ray – No, you would not expect you to be able to do so.
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“Truth Man”
She is neither advocate nor barrister but I suspect you knew that anyway.
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Why is Deputy Maindonald not willing to say why she abstained from voting, as an elected representative she has let us all down, by not stating her reason she is allowing distrust of her to grow. She doesn’t have to be specific if it was professional representation but she DOES owe us an explanation.
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Gregr
Leave out the scare tactics mate. As has already been pointed out by some major business leaders over here, things like this happen all the time and i can`t really imagine many outside Guernsey apart from suez even noticeing whats gone on here?.
I do agree with you on the point that it should have been thrown out at the first meeting. Some of the comments from deputies since the first debate just showed how little some of them actually knew about the whole issue.
Toby
Do you think after 25 years we were not going to have to pay for our waste dissposal? ofcourse you didn`t so it would have still been forever?.
I think anyone who believes Bernie is the right person to take this forward is deluded. As for his little speach after he lost the vote, well what else could he say? isn`t he just trying to play ball to keep his job?.
It just reminded me of gollygate, just say what the public and other deputies want to hear and i should be ok, yeah right.
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Truth Man,
If that is the case then why has it not been stated as such?
According to Sam, “Sorry, Bryn, but you obviously didn’t listen hard enough. It was made clear in the debate (by the Deputy Presiding Officer)” it is obviously in the public domain if you listened carefully enough so what is the issue?
What is the ‘interest’?
Ted, what?
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Sadly this is a case of the vocal minority swinging decisions in the States. As a waste management professional now living on the mainland I have watched this debate with amusement. I’m not really sure whether any of you have any concept of zero waste (which is Zero Waste to Landfill, not zero waste being produced). The “anti-suez” campaign smacks of a witch hunt – why persecute a company for providing a good, quality solution that has been asked for by the States?
I truly, honestly hope I am wrong with this, but I guarantee that this decision will be regretted in the future. There are so few options available to Guernsey, yet this was one that can work. The Autoclave “solution” producing pallets / fences etc is an absolute joke. What are you going to do with the store of these things when you realise no-one wants them? It will again be waste.
And in response to GregR above, yes you will struggle to get any interest from multi national waste management companies to deal with the island now this has happened. Money down the drain. Why not get priorities right and treat sewage if pollution is such an issue?!
Good luck to you all.
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Sam
This is getting silly now.
It reminds me of the problems caused when liar Blair refused to divulge whether or not his children had received the MMR jab.
No doubt as a para-legal you have a perfectly sound reason for declining to speak or vote in the debate but why create suspicion with unnecessary secrecy
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Dave Jones,
Thank you for the response and appreciate the insight. I see Bernard’s suggestion in press today and appreciate if the rules by which states have to abide are poor, you governing us will have situations whereby decisions are made that actually do not have the majority vote.
There were 47 elected deputies of which 5 were not allowed to vote. (Maybe those from Environment should have resigned their position on environment before the vote?)
Suez lost out because 4 potential NO votes sat on a committee. Does this sound comical irrespective of the YES/NO because what if the 4 members had been against Suez would there now be uproar if decision still was to proceed.
As a Guern I have no confidence in my government to be able to make a decision and that is not down to the people who sit as representatives it is down to the out dated historic processes that you follow.
I will not be voting again as if the person I vote for can not use their vote because they sit on a committee then they are not able to represent me in important decisions. Fact of our local government.
Outstanding question – Did the Environment Committee abstain from the original vote re Suez? I guess not given there was no planning application submitted so result..”Suez we are canning you because planning application submitted…”
I feel embarrassed to call myself a Guern and given the real elected vote would have been to proceed…a great day in Guernsey history..NOT
it is proof to me that Guernsey states is in such a mess that before it makes any other decisions, it should sort significant issues/conflicts as the only people who should not have voted were those who may have gained financially from it. Welcome to Guernsey democracy
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Jamie
my point is this ….
Had Suez gone ahead we would hve had a one stop waste treatment centre. Yes the cost of setting it up would be greater than the headline 93million, but it would be finite …..
If we go for some form of kerbside system ( note the if ) I fail to see how the cost of collecting a number o waste streams and delivering them to multiple sights can be anything other than more expensive than the single stream method we use now ( and would have continued under Suez ). That would be an ongoing , nevrending cost. A small amount paid effectively for ever will be greater than an admittedly huge amount over 25 years. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do it , just that we all need to be aware that there is no free lunch in waste management ….
Rosie, as alway you talk sense but I must pull you up on something … All the States endorsed last week was investigating the possibility of waste export to Jersey. They threw out the only waste strategy we had and left us with nothing. Not a bad thing necessarily , but an important point nonetheless …
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Well ! Tuesday’s Guernsey Press was well worth its nine bob.
I have been through so many emotions I have had to have a lie down … happiness … anger …
thankfulness and incredulity
Happiness at the excellent news of the safe Chilean tourist couple
Anger at Vale Deputy Spruce who is seriously considering his position after losing the Suez £250M monster debate following the ‘abuse of States procedure’.I can help Deputy Spruce with his dilemma by not only not voting for him in the next elections but by lobbying the Vale douzaine room on voting day with a placard listing him and Mahy as the two Vale dinosaurs who,no matter what the public wanted,refused to lose face by changing their minds
Thankfulness at the news that Scott Ogier will lead the charge away from mass incineration
Incredulity at the Editor’s Opinion column dubbed ‘The voice of islanders’ in which he uses over 450 words to absolutely slate the Suez decision yet includes the sentence .. the only reason the cries of derision have been muted is that Public Services’ proposals were so universally unwanted …
Perhaps Mr Editor THAT was the true voice of islanders ?
Still, nine bob well spent.
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Dave Jones
As Sam Maindonald appears unwilling to divulge what her reason for abstaining was, perhaps you could enlighten those of us who were unable to listen to the radio broadcast and therefore missed what was said by the Deputy Presiding Officer?
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Rich,
As professor Paul Connett pointed out, you have to distinguish between “Zero Waste to Landfill” and a “Zero Waste Strategy”. The former is often used to hide the fact that waste is diverted to an incinerator instead – both landfill and incineration are unsustainable methods of disposal.
The latter however is a philosophy which says “we are going to aim towards ultimately not producing waste by a radical change in the way we use resources, putting as much back into circulation as possible” No-one is saying that in a few years there will not be any waste, but diversion rates of 75% are quite possible. After all the incinerator leave 25% ash behind.
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Phil
I heard quite plainly the Deputy Bailiff accepting that Deputy Maindonald was ”conflicted”
This would clearly be a reference to Sam’s position at her legal firm which may be doing advocacy work on behalf of Suez or some other work that would cleary prevent an employee of the legal practice taking part in the debate.
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Sorry Toby,
either I am being a complete idiot or you don’t get the point I was trying to make …
I accept that kerbside would be an ongoing cost but Suez was NOT a finite cost either. There would have been ongoing costs to the island beyond the £93m capital. For the 25 year period we would be paying ~£10m per annum. At the end of that 25 year period, things would not magically become free. Assuming at the end of that 25 year period we had wanted to continue incinerating then we would perhaps need a refurb / new plant and would need to continue paying gate fees and service costs to suez.
I agree Toby, many challenges ahead to make all the ends of a zero waste strategy join up. Certainly an important aspect will need to be extracting the maximum value from the recyclates to help drive the cost of waste reduction initiatives as low as possible.
For example … my Brother in law collects discared metals from his building project and anywhere else he can find it. He regularly ends up with a couple of hundred kilos of copper, brass, lead, aluminium. He then takes a weekend break with his wife in his jeep to the UK, sells the metal to a merchant and basically gets ~£300 / a free holiday.
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If Sam is advising Suez then yes, that could mean that her professional duties require her not to enter into the debate in case she divulges privileged information. But to not vote? That is not a breach of client confidentiality. It may cause embarrasment for her firm if she voted for the motion, but it is not a question of professional ethics. As for States rules of conduct, I thought that provided an interest was declared Deputies were then free to vote. So what was the reason to not vote?
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Sam
Your conduct on this thread has been out of order towards Bryn if I’m honest.
A poster asks you a simple question, and you respond in quite a ridiculous manner.
Although I imagine that attitude will change with 2012 fast approaching.
Although you need to be approachable for the whole of your term in my humble opinion.
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Toby:
Not sure what you are meaning…… I know that the Jersey option is only going to be investigated at this point. That option would give us breathing space but should not be relied on IMHO. We should aim to do this on our own. However, during the debate it was made quite clear that anyone voting for the Mary Lowe amendment was voting for a waste strategy based on waste minimisation. The same point was made quite clear again when the requete went to the vote.
Rich. For someone who professes to having followed this debate, you do not seem to have a very good grasp of it. This has not been a witch hunt against Suez…. it has been acknowledged time & time again that they simply fulfilled the criteria of the tender doc…. it was the tender doc that was wrong and the whole waste strategy on which it was based. That is what we have been fighting for the last x many years. That is why part of the deal of throwing Suez out was to throw the whole strategy out too….. at long last. It was always obvious that the waste strategy would result in a solution like the one Suez put forward and it was always obvious that that solution would be too expensive and it was always obvious that the solution would involve mass-burn incineration which would be very unpopular with the public. PSD can hardly say they weren’t warned!
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Dave Jones
Are you sure she didn’t say she was ‘affected’
If she continues to rudely dismiss the little people who put her there she may well find herself back amongst those little people
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RE Abstain 6
If Suez has put application for Housing licences in for Key employees would Housing Department be allowed to have voted on the issue? if not the result would have been very different
The result is in the past but farce’s such as what has gone on re who is allowed to vote and who is not need the states to wake up and change.
In Guernsey we vote for individuals and expect them to be able to represent us on key decisions. We rely on the collective to be able to make the right decision and therefore have to trust that decision and their reading of all the facts (and not pub talk)to make decisions for the good of Guernsey. The present system is simply detrimental to a decision and the proof is with “Suezgate” irrespective of the result.
4 out of 5 from Housing voted to bin Suez so if they were not permitted to vote…get the picture…the process for me is the problem and I personally would like to see an Enquiry and something done about the system so we do not go through the same thing again e.g.
– Flouquets proposal – sounds good and will keep the public involved
– No Planning app until decision signed and sealed
– Legal Firm, Accountants representing the client must not include states members
– Departments made up less states members and more non-voting states employees
simples
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Dave Jones
Unless Sam is directly involved in any legal matters involving Suez there is no reason why she couldn’t have voted.
And if she is directly involved then shouldn’t the public have known about that prior to the day of the crucial vote???
Sam Maindonald
Your silence is deafening. You are openly rude to a poster on this site who simply asked you a perfectly reasonable question. You have then chosen to ignore subsequent questions. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised as this behaviour fits in well with the “superior” attitude that you portray in the media, which by the way is wholly misplaced.
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“Unless Sam is directly involved in any legal matters involving Suez there is no reason why she couldn’t have voted.”
Come on Phil, surely the top judge is going know best whether the lady was conflicted or not?
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So Suez appear to have retained the services of a local law firm then.
And so if and when Suez decide to try and build a legal case in an effort to get more public money out of Guernsey than the letter of intent sets out, then presumably that local law firm will do the honourable thing and say “no, we can’t take any more fee payments from you because as local taxpayers we have a conflict of interest since what you might win could be our own money”.
Chances? Surely Sam will have a word in the boss’s ear to ensure that the ethical stance is adopted?
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Rosie – Stop contradicting yourself (it’s not a witch hunt but you’re talking about throwing out Suez). I refer you to the picture at the top of this article which clearly refers to Suez, not the States.
I love the way that everyone is a waste expert. Don’t worry it will all go over to Jersey and be burnt anyway. Out of sight out of mind.
This whole process is a farce and makes me glad I am no longer on the island…..(awaiting calls of “good riddance” etc etc.).
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Neil Inder – no-one is saying that the Bailiff was wrong to conclude that she was conflicted, they are just disputing that it could be simply down to the fact that her employer may (or may not) be acting for Suez.
The issue is the failure to elaborate on what the actual nature of the conflict is (given that it was supposedly aired on the radio anyway).
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Rich – I don’t think that anyone sees Jersey as an “out of sight out of mind” option. The shipping of waste to Jersey just provides a fortunate opportunity for us to have a rethink.
We certainly need to address the volume of waste and the proportion of recycling. We also need to have our own long term solutions (plural) for dealing with the remaining waste.
I just hope that we can move forward with that swiftly.
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Rich. – The people who have been following this long sorry saga, have always warned that adherence to the last waste strategy would result in a plant like Suez. It would not have mattered who the company was, the plant wouldn’t be right for Guernsey. The plant would be bigger and more expensive than was needed, and if it involved mass-burn incineration (which it pretty much had to) then that would present even more reasons why the solution would not be popular. The name of the company is irrelevant…… even their own employee Bertrand Lepicier agrees with that.
The snappy little slogan was convenient for the occasion…. it was / is not a reflection on the company. One has to give a certain amount of credit to the passers by who we presumed would recognise that.
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Rich
This whole process is a farce and makes me glad I am no longer on the island…..(awaiting calls of “good riddance” etc etc.).
I wouldn`t say good ridance, but i think it`s a bit petty to say your glad your no longer on the Island because of this.
Dont you think it was a bit of a farce that we were only going to end up with mass burn?
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all we need to do now is sack all the states members and employ a few people with a bit of savy and things will be looking up.
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To those deputies who voted for the Lowe amendment, a big thank you.
It was a nail biting finish that aged us both a good few years, but we are so happy that the Lowe amendment got the majority vote in the end.
The final count was in no small way the result of brave decisions by those deputies who – having voted for the Suez proposal in July are now compelled to make a stand for what they know to be the wise and responsible way forward for Guernsey.
Thank you for having the courage to speak out.
Yours sincerely
David and Jo Grimshaw
P.S. The work starts here, but with co-operation by politicians and community members, I’m sure we can get this right and demonstrate that Guernsey is prepared to lead the way.
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Rosie,
I have to disagree with you on one point.
I have be active in the waste sector for the last 5 years and have been activley campaigning against Suez, I agree that the company name has little effect, I have also been involved in Ruperts campaigns, as a supporter.
To my knowledge, zero waste, olny became an issue the day before the vote.
I certainly have not been supporting zero waste,
I consider it a admiable cause but not very likely.
I have always advocated non destructive technologies and maximum recycling, to minimise disposal.
Zero waste requires a lot more involvement than can be engineered here.
Other than that, with you all the way.
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@Rich
I don’t want to say “good riddance”. It makes a nice change to hear from someone with some expertise in the subject rather than someone who thinks they are an expert.
I’m not an expert and offer no comment on whether the “right” decision was made but the way in which it was done was farcical.
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What a spoilt child type letter from Tony Spruce in today’s Press.
Referring to those deputies on PSD who oppose him as idealists is rather cheeky.
What Spruce fails to understand is that there was considerably more evidence that was anti the Suez proposals than existed when the last vote was taken.
Where Spruce is right is in his suggestion that the planning deputies who did not vote could have resigned from planning and voted. Clearly they weren’t as committed to the cause as Spruce would have us believe.
On a final note has anyone else noticed the similarity in style of a number of the different posters regretting the decision to ditch Suez?
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Am quite a new comer to the Island of Guernsey – we take the local paper and have become acquainted with various facts and personalities, and think we understand what is going down locally on incineration, etc. We follow the various threads on topics, and note that Eric, etc are up front with opinions, etc to want to suggest and guide as are many others. This is a good method of gaining a hand on experience of life here, but, who is Roy Bisson? He seems to see his opinions as written in stone and not the general attitude we have come across.
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Steve Le C.
You say….. “I have always advocated non destructive technologies and maximum recycling, to minimise disposal.”
That is pretty much ‘Zero Waste’. Zero Waste doesn’t mean Zero Waste, it means you AIM for zero waste to landfill or incineration. You might not ever reach it 100% but by aiming for it you reduce the fraction of waste that requires ‘disposal’ to the absolute minimum, thereby not needing one large plant to deal with it. You also maximise the value of the different materials that comprise our waste stream. I thought that was what you were wanting too. The terminology might be to blame for the misunderstanding?
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Rosie.
You are probably quite correct.
I could not make it to the “Zero Waste” presentation so only had the name to base my opinions on.
Glad that has been cleared up as we always seem to have been singing from the same song sheet.
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Steve – Shame that you missed the presentation, but all is not lost………. here is a link to where you can access it:
http://www.g-can.net/articles/detail.aspx?articleid=282
It has been divided into several different files as otherwise it is too large to down-load. The slide on the first page shows the 10 different steps he advises be taken.
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Well I could say that this vote against the Suez proposal just proves that Guernsey is a load of old rubbish but it will all be the fault of the UK as usual I guess.
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