Gay age of consent comes back to States
Friday 5th March 2010, 11:30AM GMT.
THE age of gay consent in Guernsey will fall to 16 if the States agrees.
The Assembly will decide at the end of the month whether to accept the Home Department recommendation.
Doing so would bring the age of consent for homosexuals, currently 18, in line with that for heterosexuals.
This was an issue brought to prominence in 2007 and in May that year, Home minister Geoff Mahy (pictured) said a change could happen within three months.
‘Other laws were given a higher priority,’ he said yesterday.
Home has been under pressure from campaigners to make the change.
The inequality in the age of consent leaves the island in breach of European human rights laws.
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About time too, how many people have effectively been criminalised over the years through the States’ tardiness in dealing with this?
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I agree it’s about time, one step closer to get the equal treatment Homosexuals deserve albeit slowly.
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It’s wrong to begin with IMO, I think the law was put that way so that they were at an age of good knowledge.
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GG
So a 16 year old homosexual has less knowledge than a 16 year old heterosexual, is that what you’re saying?
That’s precisely the kind of discrimination that this legislation is designed to deal with.
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I think if you are old enough to decide to be in a hetrosexual relationship then you are old enough to decide to be in a homosexual relationship. Surely it is against human rights to suggest that only 16 year olds who are hetrosexual are sensible enough to be making important life choices.
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To be honest, I’d rather it be kept at 18. I’m not saying that homosexuals have less knowledge, but I am saying that being homosexual is a somewhat large life decision to make and not one that should be undertaken lightly.
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I knew i was gay at about 12 years old. Between 16 and 21 which was the age of consent then, meant I was a criminal. That cant be right. Hey if you make a mistake you will soon realise, and you can go back to batting for the other team. 16 Is the right age. Everyone is equal. Nice to see the island getting up to speed with the rest of europe. xx
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Bill
The point is that becoming sexually active is a large life changing decision full stop, and shouldn’t be taken lightly, whatever side you decide to end up on. If you’re too young at 16 to decide you’re gay then logically you’re too young to decide you’re straight as well …… I fail to see why engaging in homosexual acts only to discover later that you are straight is any worse than engaging in heterosexual acts and then discovering you are gay ….
If anything there is a good argument to be made for raising the age of consent to 18 for all …..
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I assume that the “consent” is to the act of buggery an act that serves no useful function, merely gratification. Why start at 16, why not 12?
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Each to his own I suppose but what will they be wanting next?
Why should they have to wait till seventeen to drive a car?
Why should they wait till eighteen to have a lemonade shandy?
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Equality, this is the answer. The age of consent must be the same for all. But,, I think that 16 is a very young age, and I must agree with ‘Toby’ that there is a good argument for raising the age of consent to 18.
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A “large life decision” is more likely whether or not to have a baby and seeing as straight people are having children well under 16 these days I think people’s concerns should be directed at the age of consent for straight people rather than for gay people. As far as I see, gay people are far less a problem for society than straight these days. I imagine the effect to society caused by immature mothers and absent fathers sowing their oats to anyone whole take them is probably a more pressing matter.
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MalB
If it as about equality, then the law would have to make the sodomy of 16 year old girl legal, that would be real parity under the law so it certainly isn’t about that and if the new law is passed ( and I wont make my mind up until I have heard all the arguments for or against) it would mean that any police officer checking the age of a young man having sex in a car for instance with another man would be perfectly legally entitled to do so at 16 but if the youngster has a packet of cigarettes in his pocket then he could find himself in real trouble as he is not allowed to have those until he is 18 on health grounds, the law is a mess.
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Cher Eugene:
Do I take it that in your opinion, the only reason for the current age of legal consensual sex between heterosexual people, is simply because we don’t want girls to become pregnant below the age of 16? Please correct me if I have read into your post incorrectly.
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About freaking time!
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I agree with some of the other comments – equality is what is important here. I would prefer to see the age of consent be 18 for both – 16 is very young to be embarking on a sexual relationship, regardless of who you might be having sex with.
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“They” – who exactly are you refuring too? “they” no longer wish to be treated as second class citizens. WE are all equal, and that is the sole point of this. If the Hetrosexual age of concent was 18, then great, leave the law as it is. In 2010 we shouldn’t even be having this conversation, the age of concent should have been automatically changed inline with everyone else. We make mistakes at the age 30, 40 and 50 the mistakes of a 16 year old are mearly hightlighted further. The UK and Channel Islands have seen an overwelming rise in underage pregnacy meaning that even >16 hetrosexuals can makes mistakes, the Gay community are not adding to these’s figures. The rate of infection with-in gay 16-24 year olds is at an all time low, whilst the medical profession have been a huge rise in 16-24 year old “stright” men….
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There is a good point made by Deputy Jones. The law is a complete mess in regards to age restrictions. At the moment, a 16 year old can legally get a girl pregnant, but can’t drive her to the hospital to have the baby or buy a beer to celebrate! Which of these has longer term ramifications – drinking a beer, driving a car or having a baby? More poignant is that a 16 year old can get a girl pregnant but still require parental permission to marry her!
Whilst accepting that a large proportion of people ignore age restrictions on sex, alcohol and smoking; the government should still place certain restrictions for the protection of the young.
I think the age of consent for all sexual intercourse should be 18, simply because sex comes with a huge responsibility: both to yourself, your partner and any offspring you produce. Such a responsibility is, in my opinion, the territory of adults. As an adult in Guernsey is defined as 18 years old (rightly or wrongly) that should therefore be the age of consent for all. The legal marital age should change to 18 to fall in line with the age of consent.
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So long as they dont start chaining themselfs to the fence at Greenham Common again or the States make it compulsory,then its fine by me.I understand a new Nightclub has recently opened especially to cater for these people.
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Really this is a Nature or Nurture argument.
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Dave Jones – how do you equate being gay with smoking? Am I to assume you regard both as being dangerous polluters, unhealthy and filthy?
How on earth can you say it’s not about equality? So what do you think it’s about? Pandering to the perversions of an underclass?
Come out of the closet Dave and say what you really want to say.
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Dave Jones:
Is anal intercourse with a 16 year old girl illegal? I don’t believe it is, but am not certain so I stand to be corrected! Is it possible to quote the law to which you refer please?
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Doug / Truth Man
I was giving an example of how ridiculous these different ages of consent are, as for equality it will bring the age of consent in line with each other, however as I understand the law, anal sex is still illegal in this island.
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Truth man, you asked “Is anal intercourse with a 16 year old girl illegal?”
The answer is yes. Or a 30 year old male with a 30 year old female. The only situation that anal sex is legal is where two males over the age of 18 consent.
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Dave Jones
Perhaps someone ought to raise that point in a States meeting. Personally it feels like the States have been doing that to me for years…………
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Dave Jones could have added to his example that if the 16 year old was prosecuted for the cigarette offence it would have to be in the Juvenile Court as he would be a child in the eyes of the Law
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To Dave Jones and his homophobic supporters on this thread: what a pathetic bunch of small minded bigots you all are. We never heard a peep from any of you lot about changing the age of consent to 18 until the Home Dept came out with these very welcome, very long overdue proposals to end discrimination against a minority section of our community.
The pure and simple fact here is that it should be no more wrong in law to be gay in our society than it should be wrong in law for a person to be black. And if you do believe it is wrong to be gay why don’t you just come out and have the courage to say what you really mean instead of skirting round the issue? You really are a cowardly bunch.
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Why on earth might anal sex still be illegal in these islands?
What business is it of The States to proscribe what two consenting adults might engage in?
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As an “out” gay man of “middle age” and only attracted to people of the same age as myself I am appalled to see the latest repeat ( the BBC have nothing on the bigots ) that lowering the age will promote paedophiles , what a load of rubbish , the GP saying that obviously has his eyes firmly implanted where the sun doesn’t shine and is blinded, if he takes the time to look at the figures he will see, that, locally at least , the majority of paedophiles are actually heterosexual. YES it does happen and should never be condoned but don’t use that as a reason to breach human rights , Maybe he wants to go back to times when women were chained to a sink, had no voting rights etc etc , this is the 21st century, if you dont like it then you really should look at the facts and consider your own role in life , The fact is that the people against homosexuality are actually the people bringing us into this world , maybe sex in every form should be illegal ? or abortion compulsary to ensure that homosexuality is then non existant.
there are many other problems in this world at the moment which are far more important ..
Well that’s my 73p’s worth (damn inflation!)
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Well done Martino for being the first one to shout homophobic.
What exactly is a homophobic anyway? from what i get from some people it is anything from discrimination (which is wrong) to someone just saying “i dont like the thought of what they do but thats their business”.
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The age of consent is a problem in Guernsey…
I think it should stay at 18 as young teens will be vunerable & if they make a mistake, then they will have to live with it…
Before everyone jumps all over this by saying its perfectly acceptable for a 16 year old girl to have sex – well… yes it is… as sex between a man & a woman is perfectly normal as nature intended… homosexuality isnt. Im gonna get all kinds of flak for saying that but its true…
As for lowering the age – all that is going to do is confuse youngsters even more & they will be preyed on by older guys.
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Martino – what is homophobia exactly? Like bcb says it has a number of different meanings to different people. Literally speaking it is a fear of homosexuals/homosexuality. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but just to clarify things for you: If a homophobe is someone who disagrees with homosexual behaviour and considers it unnatural, then guilty as charged; if however a homophobe is someone who hates gay people then NOT guilty.
Incidentally, if I was a REAL homophobe I would be clamouring for homosexuality to be made illegal again….strangely enough though I don’t read that anywhere here. For the record I don’t want homosexuality made illegal again – despite my objections to it.
Believe it or not, it is possible to like (even love) people whilst not agreeing with their behaviour, ideologies, beliefs etc. Sadly that is something that people on both sides of this debate seem to forget or conveniently ignore. I am related to a gay person and have happily worked with homosexuals before, as well as having friends who are homosexual – despite openly disagreeing with their lifestyle choice. Sadly, for some bizarre reason people like yourself and the likes of Peter Tatchell and the Westboro Baptist Church find that difficult to understand.
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PS Incidentally Martino: I reject your accusation of cowardice. My beliefs and opinions are well known to those that know me so when they read my words on this forum, written under my own name, they know exactly where I’m coming from.
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Paul le Page “disagreeing with their lifestyle choice”
Who said it was a ‘choice’? Does anyone ‘choose’ to have brown hair or blue eyes?
What makes you think your friends ‘chose’ to be homosexual?
If you’re saying they ‘chose’ to act on their natural inclination – would you rather they be hypocrites and denied it? Would you rather they spend years denying who they are – to their own, and quite possibly their partner’s continuing misery?
I don’t much like the East Wind – but objecting to it is pointless – because its there, always has been, always will.
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Martino
Suddenly I have gone from indicating what a farce the law on age is and giving an example, to becoming a gay hating bigot. You really don’t want anyone to debate this do you? As you resort to the tried and tested method of calling anyone with an opinion that you haven’t given them a homophobic bigot…………. Extraordinary.
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W H Bonney – so its ok for 16 year old girls to be “preyed on by older guys”, but not for 16 year old boys? In my book, neither is acceptable, but then again, its not like there is a big switch in people’s heads marked ’100% Heterosexual’ OR ’100% Homosexual’ – and once you’ve tried one there is no going back….
While from the safe distance of my fifties I can understand an older age of consent (for both sexes) but very much doubt my 16 year old self, or my contemporaries would have!
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Quite right Dave Jones – Martino’s argument borders on the bizarre.
What “better” way to express homophobic bigotry than to suggest raising the heterosexual age of consent to equality with the homosexual age? Surely all of us “bigots” should be clamouring for the immediate criminalisation and arrest of all homosexuals?
As you say – extraordinary!
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Dave Jones – Martino’s charge of homophobic bigotry is way over the top.
However, you might pause to think whether drawing attention to the idiocies of the law on things such as cigarette smoking are in any way equivalent to something as fundamental as someone’s identity and human rights.
I’m sure you harbour no ill-will, but can also understand how someone might read your comments as not taking their concerns seriously.
For example, are you suggesting that you would not support equalisation of the age of consent if the smoking age remained at 18?
I doubt it, but your comment might be read that way.
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FlyingScot – the old nature or nurture debate….
For the record I don’t believe that people are born gay, any more than they are born with a preference to blondes or brunettes. I understand there are those who believe that people are born gay – however there is no concrete evidence to prove this.
However, at the risk of being accused of dodging the question, that isn’t really the point. we’re talking about the age of consent here and in the context of this debate the “nature or nurture” argument is irrelevant. What is relevant is at what age people are mature enough to engage in sexual activity of ANY kind – accepting both the pleasure and the responsibility for their actions. That is the point of this debate.
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Paul le Page – ‘Nature vs Nurture’ – since the debate on “nature” (hard wired) vs “nurture” (early childhood development) focuses on very early development – it is unlikely your friends had a ‘choice’.
The American Psychological Association has noted, “Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture.
So whether its ‘nature’ or ‘nurture’ – its not a ‘choice’.
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FlyingScot – I agree with your comments on “preying” 100%. Any kind of sexual predatory behaviour is unacceptable – period. However, again we’re missing the point here. This isn’t about different beliefs or opinions – it’s about the age of consent for sexual activity, nothing more.
The age of consent serves one purpose alone: to define in law an age when the individual has sufficient maturity to engage in sexual activity. It does not legislate on matters of morality, sexual orientation, religious belief or personal preference – those are matters over which the state should not exercise control. Therefore these matters should not enter into this particular debate.
Despite major differences of opinion, few would argue against equality in the law for the age of consent. The only argument is at what age this should be set. In a slightly broader context, it also raises the question about discrepancies in age restrictions relating to other areas such as drinking, smoking etc.
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I’ll concede that my broadside was, in the words of Flying Scot, “over the top”, so I apologise for that, but I still haven’t heard a satisfactory explanation as to why the non gay age of consent has become an issue all of a sudden.
It would be absolutely insane for Guernsey to go it alone and raise the age to 18 while everyone else in the whole of western Europe has 16 (or lower) as the standard age. It’s not a situation that is going to change so it is totally irrelevant debating it here or in the States.
What I do see here, in this thread, is a low level of homophobia, exemplified by inane comments like “disagreeing with their lifestyle choice”. Using terms like these is the very thin end of a potentially very nasty wedge and, taken to its extreme, this type of antipathy can lead to the horror of what is happening in Uganda right now.
Check out https://secure.avaaz.org/en/ugandan_voices/?vl
And also: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8542341.stm
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No 16 year old has the emotional maturity to decide this sort of thing, especially as they are very vulnerable to peer pressure (etc). Raise the age to 18 for heterosexual sex if necessary (and start prosecuting and stop using taxpayers money to support under-age mothers!)
Oh, FWIW every homosexual that I know considers it to be a lifestyle choice and are proud of it – they get very upset if you suggest they had no choice about it.
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Whats wrong with treating people as equal? If the age of consent was raised to 18, as a lot of people here seem to agree, I think it would give youngsters more time to find out about people. life and especially themselves. At 16, they are still being told what to do;ie; schools, college, their parents, the internet, etc etc. Whats wrong with giving them a breathing space during this transission from youngster to adult?
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just pop over to france and the legal age for sex is 15, gay or straight. most other places in europe is 14 and in spain it is 13….BUT..if you get caught with a child, then you do go to jail and get a very heavy fine.
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well in the eyes if the NEW fluffy childrens law that the states voted in kids are no longer criminal responsible until 12+ thanks MR jones children are becoming mothers at 12 but you and your fellow members have just made it legal !!!
so how dare you argue i should wait till i am 18 to make love to muy boyfriend
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FlyingScot – whether it’s “nature” or “nurture” doesn’t factor into this debate. I think my post of 6.44pm yesterday settles my particular point of view on this subject matter adequately.
I do apologise for going somewhat off topic here yesterday, however there was a need to set the record straight (no pun intended) in response to Martino’s rather bizarre accusation that favouring the equalisation of the age of consent at 18 rather than 16 was tantamount to hating gay people!
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Martino – please accept my apologies, I placed my last post before your’s appeared. Your apology is accepted :-)
I suppose you could argue that my religious beliefs constitute a “low level of homophobia” by virtue of my views on homosexuality, I would be splitting hairs on definitions to suggest otherwise.
I stress, they are views on homosexuality, not homosexuals! Rest assured that I do not, and never will condone discrimination, violence or hatred against homosexuals or any other minority group.
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Cynic – you don’t know very many of us then do you?
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Looks like there is a consensus – the age of consent should be equal, only question is at what age? I somehow don’t see the States raising it to 18 though….that would make us oldest in Europe, along with Turkey.
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Egghead
I am sorry I must have missed something here, perhaps you could indicate to me where I have said that you should wait until you are 18 to have sex with your boyfreind? or where I have made it legal for 12 year olds to have sex and become mothers?
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Dave Jones – Your posts on here not exactly succinct. Why not lay out your stall nice and clearly?
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The fact of the matter is that 16 is a vulnerable age for anybody regardless of their gender or sexual orientation. Tennagers have enough to deal with without the added pressure of not being ‘normal’ if they don’t have a sex life no matter what that sex life may be.
I do think Cynic has a valid point though re the under 18 ‘reproducers’ who are supported by taxpayers’ money. Raising the age of consent for all and introducing prosecution for underage mothers/fathers would be the way to go.
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Oh come on you lot… this is silly.. You can’t stop any one falling in to and out of love.. Weather they are 16,18 or 60 years olds.
16 is fine for everone else why not us..
So live and let live..
What other poeple do in thier own home behind shut doors is up to them.
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Just read the article about the attack in the Candie Shop and it made me think about the age of consent and understand where Dave jones was coming from.
How come you can have consensual sex at the age of 16, therefore being deemed for a girl and boyin a heterosexual relationship to be adult enough to bring a child in to the world and care fo that child but when it comes to criminal offences you cannot be named till the age of 18, it doesn’t make sense!!!
Also, going off the subject a bit, how come kids who work in shops under the age of 18 can sell cigarettes to people with no questions but have to ask to beep through alcohol?
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I’ve conducted a quick e-mail poll of 20 of my gay friends today.
Sorry to let you down Cynic – nature won the day mate no one made a choice. Lifestyle choice? When you did you decide to be straight Cynic?
All had sex below the age of consent, though for some us it was still at 21 at the time. The vast majority of the early encounters were with peers from school. One was with his father which was news to me, upsetting news.
One could not believe it is still a debate here and could not ‘be bothered debating with social conservatives and pseudo Christians anymore, the 90′s are long gone so get over it’
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So, a 17 year old is mature enough to go off to Afghanistan and die for his country but not mature enough to have a same-sex partner? Yet again, Guernsey’s archaic attitudes and laws amaze me!
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Lola – although you can join the British Army at 16 (with parental consent) you are not allowed on active duty until 18 years old. So actually, the reverse is true – you are allowed to have a sexual partner (of either sex) but not allowed to fight for your country.
Perhaps our attitudes and laws aren’t as archaic as you think.
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Sorry, got that wrong! You are allowed to have a heterosexual partner but not allowed to fight for your country. Presently, you’re allowed to have a same sex partner at the same time at being able to die for your country. As has been suggested by a number of people here already (me included) equalising the age of consent at 18 would get rid of the discrepancy :-)
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Live and let live…
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Hi Paul and thanks for your apologies in a previous post and for your candour in the way you set out your position. As a socially conservative Christian you are never going to agree with an atheist libertarian like me on issues like these but you really have pushed yourself into a corner on this matter.
Surely the best way to ‘get rid of the discrepancy’ as you put it is to make the gay age of consent 16 rather than what you suggest, which is to raise the general age of consent to 18, thereby criminalising hundreds of sexually active young islanders between the ages of 16 and 18, while at the same time putting tiny little Guernsey totally out of step with the rest of western Europe?
As Melc says, live and let live….
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Martino.
You see to have issues to address.
Mr Dave Jones
you don’t appear to agree with it.. But seem to know what’s right and what’s wrong.. I guess you’ll be voting to lower the age ?.
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Martino..
I take back my issues comment…Sorry.. Think I understand now.
And I do so honestly believe.. We should try to accept everybody for who they are, gay, straght, white, black, Christain or what ever… Don’t ram your beliefs down some one else’s throat.. even if you don’t agree with them
Live and let live.
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Martino – thanks for your comments and you’re quite right, there are some issues that people with polar opposite worldviews just aren’t going to agree on – apart from the silliness of our current Sunday Trading Laws – although I’m sure if we dug deep enough we’d find something we disagree on there! :-)
Actually, in some areas I think you’d find me remarkably liberal in comparison to some of my ultra-conservative friends. For example, I don’t believe people should be made to pray in schools, or in this context I don’t consider the criminalisation of homosexuality an option – it is a matter of individual choice.
Anyway, I digress. I don’t actually see how I have pushed myself into a corner with my suggestion. My idea of equalising the age of consent at 18 not only solves the legal discrepancy between heterosexuals and homosexuals, it also solves the discrepancies in the age of marriage, smoking and consumption of alcohol – not to mention going off to war. I concede it doesn’t solve all of them but it’s a step in the right direction no doubt. Irrespective of my religious beliefs, I cannot see how the law considers someone mature enough to have children, yet not mature enough to buy alcohol or marry their partner without Mummy’s say so.
How is that pushing myself into a corner exactly?
I cannot see how you can use uniformity with Western Europe as an argument when the age of consent varies so widely. Take Germany, France, Spain and the UK: they have different ages of consent (14 – or 16 if your partner is 21 or over, 15, 13, 16 respectively). Since the major nations of Western Europe can’t agree among themselves, why should we care if we’re different?
On a more political note, I’m not too bothered about being out of step with the rest of Western Europe on matters of social law. They can’t agree on the colour of grass half the time, so why should we fall in line with them? Matters of economics are slightly different but that’s an argument for another place.
As for criminalising currently sexually active 16-18 year olds, that is a fair point. I would not want to see them criminalised for a law they weren’t breaking when they starting sexual activity. However rather than putting the stopper on the idea, the problem could be easily solved by phasing in the law so that it exempts people under the age of 18 until a certain starting date two years after the law is enacted.
Oh, finally Martino – perhaps one day this socially conservative Christian and libertarian atheist might unwittingly share a pint of Guinness in a pub? It’s a small island and I’m sure even we could agree that a good pint of Guinness is good for you? ;-)
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The comments on this story in today’s Press from Roy Sarre remind me why I didn’t come out until i was 27! Yes, he is entitled to his own opinions, but I feel that it’s quite disturbing that someone involved with Churches on the island has that feeling toward Homosexuals. Aren’t the churches meant for all?
i don’t visit church, and I know that is going off topic
I have my first ‘gay experience’ at 15, when the age was still 21. This is going back 15/16 years now. I moved on, had a girlfriend for 5 years, trying to surpress these ‘bad feelings’ that I was having. Didn’t work, and I ended up coming out to my family.
Basically, I knew what I wanted at 15. Society was saying that it was wrong and because of that I tried to fight it. If you’re gay, you’re gay. You know you’re gay at an early age. Because of the social stigma surrounding being gay back then, I ended up hurting my girlfriend when the truth came out. I KNOW that there are plenty of other men who are in the same position, some even married with kids.
Why does it matter to the homophobics what gay men get up to? I’ve been in a relationship now for 2 years. We live together, pay our bills and taxes. We’re no different to anybody else on the island, except we like to sleep with the same sex
If lowering the age of consent to 16 stops anyone else having the same experiences as I had with hurting people, then I’m all for it! Bring on the 21st Century!
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Roy Sarre deserves the same press coverage as the idiotic doctor who was quoted recently i.e. none. Religious beliefs should have no influence whatsoever on our laws, we’re supposed to be a DEMOCRACY not a THEOCRACY.
The church is already pandered to when it comes to receiving public money for upkeep of property etc, we’re supposed to be a secular society so why should I have to pay for other people’s religion. PAY AS YOU PRAY should be introduced, normal taxpayers shouldn’t be burdened with the costs of an organisation that has considerable financial assets.
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Phil
A tad off topic there but I agree with you. Interesting to see that you’re Theophobic rather than Technophobic in this instance. I’m sure that even some Daily Mail readers might be with you on this point;-)
Roy Sarre and the Doctor are both well out of touch – the latter even seems to be linking gay equality with impending invasion by paedophiles. What nonsense.
As for the church views on this, I note in today’s news that the Catholics disagree with the proposals, the Anglicans won’t comment until after a political decision is made and the Methodists support the equality proposal. Presumably Sarre and the Doctor are among the ranks of the first two denominations.
As an add-on to your comments too, the Methodists aren’t funded by the taxpayers. It really is pay as you pray there.
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Hi again Paul, you sound like a pretty decent bloke and I would be happy to join you in a pub some time, as polar opposites, for a conversation over a drop of the black stuff.
In the meantime I’d ask you to read Jon’s very moving testimony to the prejudice and intolerance he has suffered as a gay man on this island. I’m not myself gay and I’m now in my 50s but from a very early age I have accepted homosexuality as a totally normal and natural part of the wonderful spectrum of human sexuality.
As Jon will probably tell you, being gay is no more ‘wrong’ than being born with black or brown skin. You won’t like me saying this, Paul, but I am convinced that a large part of the homophobia and intolerance that has built up over the centuries is as a result of religious ‘teaching’ – especially in Islam and Christianity.
Once this much needed change to our law goes through, as it surely must, the next step for our States should be to bring in a further new law to allow for civil partnerships for gay men and lesbians. And after that Guernsey should lead the way by introducing further legislation to prevent our children being indoctrinated with homophobic views by religious organisations.
As Phil says, “Religious beliefs should have no influence whatsoever on our laws.” and as Jon says, “Bring on the 21st century!”
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Phil – I agree with you that the church and state should be seperate. Historically whenever the two have got too closely entwined there’s been trouble.
In that respect “pay as you pray” is already in force for every church except the Anglicans. It’s a concept I support too, as I don’t expect anyone to contribute to the church I’m a part of except it’s members, and even then it’s their choice.
As for our laws, whether you like it or not religious belief does have an influence on our laws – and if you think about it, in the majority of cases I’m sure you’ll agree it’s a positive one. It’s widely accepted by historians that many of our laws were founded on the teachings of the Bible. Laws such as those against murder and theft were originally based on the Ten Commandments for example. Of course we could rid ourselves totally of any such influence but that would be cutting off our nose to spite our face I think.
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Interesting to note that whilst Jersey already has the 16 year old gay age limit they have decided today to force all children under the age of 18 to wear cycle helmets to protect them from themselves
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Jon makes the comment “Aren’t the churches meant for all?” I’m aware this is going slightly off topic; I’m also aware that there are those that feel religious belief has no place in this debate. To a degree I agree with that statement, as I mentioned earlier the age of consent law does not legislate on such matters but leaves them to personal conviction – and rightly so. So I apologise in advance for taking up your time if you choose to read this, however it is clear to me that, like it or not, religious belief has entered this debate with a vengeance!
I feel I must respond to Jon’s concerns here and try to clarify a few things from a Christian viewpoint. I’m aware there are different viewpoints regarding the Christian stance on homosexuality, so to clarify the following is written from the evangelical standpoint, which in brief accepts the Bible as God’s written word, inerrant in its original manuscripts (read the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy for more details of what most evangelical Christians believe about the Bible). Among other things, the Bible teaches us that:
- God alone defines right and wrong and is the supreme authority and judge of right and wrong, not human beings.
- God defines his laws for humanity and makes it clear that the slightest breach of this law (sin) condemns a human being. One of the breaches of God’s law is homosexual behaviour.
- God goes even further and states that following the fall of man (Adam & Eve) all of humanity is born with a nature of sin, so basically speaking we are all condemned with no ability to save ourselves….no amount of “good” we do will save us.
- The punishment for sin is death therefore we are all deserving of death, as none of us can keep God’s law in its entirety.
- Jesus (God’s Son) was born both God and Man. He lived a perfect life and kept God’s law. He was crucified and died as a sacrifice for our sins (the atonement) then was raised to life and ascended to heaven.
- Those who accept they are incapable of saving themselves, but believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died in their place, receive complete justification (declared not guilty) before God and are given eternal life freely as an act of grace.
- They are then called to live a life that reflects God’s guidelines – not out of fear or guilt, but out of thanksgiving to God for saving them. Those who do not accept Jesus’ sacrifice are condemned by God.
So, in a nutshell, it doesn’t matter if you’re homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, male, female, black, white, a nice guy or a complete nasty piece of work – we are all equally condemned in the eyes of God, we all need a saviour – Jesus.
Someone is not a Christian because they are a good person. A Christian is someone who realises they are a depraved person in the eyes of God who needs a saviour. Someone is not a Christian because of what they have done – they are a Christian because of what Jesus did on their behalf.
That’s why one of the most ugly things in the world is a self-righteous Christian, as they have completely ignored the fact that they are only saved because of Jesus, not because they’re better than their homosexual neighbour. That’s why it saddens me that homosexuals feel unwelcome in churches – and indeed are unwelcome in some churches. Everyone should be welcome in a church, because everyone is equally needy of Jesus. That doesn’t mean that homosexual behaviour is acceptable in the eyes of God, or that Christians should deny what God says because it’s not politically correct or culturally acceptable. What is does mean though is that Christians should not treat a homosexual any different from themselves.
I appreciate that many of you think this is all a load of outdated mumbo jumbo – that is your prerogative. All I’m trying to achieve here is to wade through some of the incorrect assumptions on both sides of this debate, as well as assure Jon and other homosexuals that, although they might not like what is said there, they should receive a warm welcome in a church. They certainly would at the one I attend.
For those who have read this far – thanks for your time!
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There are many people with strong opinions on both sides here, and several more in between. Just so these opinions can stay informed and current, recent (C21) research has finally provided some answers to the nature/nurture debate; apologies if I’m re-opening a can of worms.
It is becoming scientifically accepted that there is NO genetic correlation with sexual orientation. This is fairly obvious to anybody with the slightest understanding of genetics; any “gay gene” would be bred out within a very small number of generations unless a huge proportion of the homosexual population changed their minds at some point, for long enough to reproduce successfully.
And yet it would also seem that sexual orientation is determined before birth. How? The early development of the fetal human brain occurs in stages, and is a process which is known to be highly sensitive to the balance of maternal hormones. Testosterone levels in pregnancy, for example, are affected by a huge number of external factors caused by the mother’s pre-natal experiences. The balance of these hormones at these various stages can explain, and has been linked to, variation in many characteristics displayed subsequently in the life-cycle, through childhood and on into adolescence and adulthood. These include sexual orientation and other sexually-driven behaviours such as “cross-dressing” and exhibitionism, as well as many non-sexual but gender-related traits such as sensitivity, violent tendancies and spatial skills. Whether there is causal link between hormonal balance and fervent religiosity remains to be seen.
So, it seems that those who like to cry “I blame the parents” may have a leg to stand on after all…
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Might this not have a knock on effect on paedophile activity?
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Andy
Why do you think this has anything to do with paedophile activity?
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Andy – it might…but then pigs might fly.
Hi Martino – I have read Jon’s testimony and responded to it as best I can.
Sadly, I agree with you that extremes of hatred against homosexuals (not to mention Jews, women, blacks etc) have at times been partly fuelled by religious teachings – including the Bible. I can’t speak for Islam, as it is as diametrically opposed to Christianity as atheism.
However I would add that those teachers of the Bible were very choosy about which parts they accepted and which parts they didn’t. Additionally, on a number of occasions they mixed said teachings with other ideologies such as extreme nationalism – manipulating the religious beliefs of their hearers to serve their own ends.
Still, I think I’ve hogged this forum for long enough! Nice to lock horns with you again, sir – and I’m pleased we can have a civilised debate despite our diametrically opposite worldviews! :-)
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As Human DNA doesnt reveal the cause of homosexuality it could be a learned activity therefore shouldnt we protect children?
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The debate will rage long after the States of Guernsey equalises the ages of consent. But equalise it they will.
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At the end of the day, no matter what the law is people will still go ahead and have sex when they want! It’s never stopped people in past!
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Andy, what are you on about mate?
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Andy: protect children from what?
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Andy
Why do you think this has anything to do with children? Sorry I still don’t understand why this makes any difference to the safety of children.
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Andy – I don’t believe the human genome is yet fully understood. I’m not sure they have identified a gene for stupidity yet – maybe you could help?
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i have mixed fealings over this,i have gay friends although i do not agree with what they do or or even understand it it just dose not seem right.We talked for hours one day and i can remember them saying that they did not realy know they were truly gay untill they were in there twenties yet one of there friends knew from a very early age and i think most do.. Whatever the law boys and girls are going to explore have relationships et.. i think most do before they are 16 anyway as much as we would like to think they dont. Whatever the law i do not think it will make a blind bit of differance
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16/17 yr olds are still children and very easily influenced by Adults. Therefore as we dont know whether it is nature or nurture should we not err on the side of caution. I have 2 gay friends both were introduced to homosexuality as children by much older adults.
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Neil Inder – brief, to the point and totally accurate.
Equalise it they will, and equalise it they should. I only wish they would debate the age of equalisation but I fear that is a forlorn hope.
That’s my final word on the matter.
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I too have mixed feelings on this subject similar to coco.
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From the BBC:
Republican Roy Ashburn, a conservative US state senator who has voted against gay rights measures during his 14 years in office has announced he is gay.
So homophobes out there….don’t think we aren’t on to you!
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Andy:
Your opinion seems very outdated. Are you of the older generation? I am surprised that in this day and age someone would make such unintelligent and uninformed comments, and in saying that I refer also to your post on the other related thread:
“Good news for paedophiles however.”
You need to do some homework.
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Interesting post Flying Scot.
Makes me wonder if some of those with homophobic voting tendencies in our own States have a gay nature that they are desperately trying to suppress.
As for Andy, you really do need therapy mate. Your world view belongs in the dark ages – or modern day Uganda perhaps?
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Equality…make sex, drugs and driving legal at 17 for all.
Guernsey does descriminte the other way.
When I married my Guern they gave me a 5 year licence.
A gay colleague brought over his boyfried and he was given a 10 year licence
He showed me proof of his licence as we did laugh about the fact Guernsey obviously felt a Gay relationship would last longer than a marriage…and no he did not bring any critical skills to the island to alllow him the extra 5 years
Life is not always equal but lets hope some equality can be given in this debate
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I find it interesting the number of people arguing for the age of consent to be raised to 18. Does no one remember what it was like when they were that age?? Do you honestly think that under 18s are going to adhere? Why make a law that would turn a significant proportion of our youth into criminals and in the whole is entirely unenforceable? And then people wonder why the youth have less respect for the law nowadays.
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If lowering the age of consent for homosexual males to 16 will make them prey to paedophiles. Then surely this means the age of consent for hetrosexuals (and lesbians) must now be set at 18 as by this reckoning they are also at risk to paedophiles.
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@Martino
It is wrong to be gay, there you have it.
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Welcome to the homophobes’ club LocalDave. May your membership continue to dwindle.
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LocalDave:
YocalDave would be much more appropriate.
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In 1999 the same exact debate happened – but then the age of “sexual” consent (AOSC) got lowered down to 18.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/264590.stm
In Jersey another Channel Island next door has had an equal AOSC since 2008 at 16. Why is Guernsey so slow at adopting an Equal AOSC? I have an excellent idea as a gay activist. How about we RAISE the heterosexual and lesbian AOSC from 16 to 18 – then the AOSC will be equal.
I have always personally thought that the AOSC should be 18 for everybody. REMEMBER that people are living longer and that 16 is FAR too young to be having sex anyway – 18 is the age it should be at when you have sex I think anyway. I never use the term age of consent (I always use the term “age of sexual consent”) – because that I say, “Consent to what exactly”????? It could be abortion you’re consenting to or consenting to having a tattoo, etc.
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there’s ALOT of people missing the point here. the age of consent laws in guernsey are not in line with human rights legislations, therefore it needs to change. done.
there may be homophobic people and “pro-homo” people posting, but it all boils down to human rights. not maturity, morality etc.
i am a 20 year old gay man who lost his virginity at 15 and accepted the responsibilities that come along with it. not all people in their late teens are mature enough to make decisions to “take the plunge” and become sexually active, but they do anyway. the age of consent law forces them to take responsibility whether they like it or not.
and on the nature v nurture thing: i personally do not feel that i made a lifestyle choice. i am gay, that is me, that is what i am. if i could choose i would have chosen to be straight and be able to have my own children and get married (actually married, in a church etc) and have the life that everyone else has the opportunity to live without going to extreme measures to obtain this.
hope that added to the debate in a non-stoopid way.
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Dear Deputies,
Please vote against the proposed change of law, which will legally permit older school children to participate in a filthy, vile and unnatural act,
very sincerely,
J M Henry
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Gayactivist101 – I support you 100%. Equalise the AOC at 18.
Actually it’s interesting that you are the second gay person I know to openly support that view. Puts a stopper on the perception that those who advocate that change are all ultra-conservative religious types!
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J M Henry, did you read that before you posted it? you’re entitled to your view, but seriously? go back to your cave. thankyou
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Interesting to juxtapose the two different Christian viewpoints here – Paul Le Page and JM Henry
To Paul, as a supporter of equalisation I trust that you will (albeit reluctantly) end up supporting lowering the gay age of consent to 16 given that raising the heterosexual age of consent to 18 stands a snowball’s chance in hell of becoming local law?
To JM Henry, how do you know the act of which you speak is filthy, vile and unnatural? Have you ever tried it – even with a woman? On no, you’ve read it in the bible. Says it all really.
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Sodomy is against the law for everybody, dont push this at school kids.Equality fo all.
Peace
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J M Henry:
Said like a true 17th century Christian. What year is this?!
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Truth Man
The law of gravity was also in effect in the seventeenth century, some things never change.
How come so many of you avoid the facts of the topic in hand and abuse/accuse people while changing the subject about Bibles/Which century/Black people/Slaves etc.
Get a grip guys, quit the hatred and thank your heterosexual parents for your existence.
Peace
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@Martino – “a snowball’s chance in hell” – since you don’t believe in hell, perhaps the snowball might stand a decent chance eh? ;-)
I digress though mate. As you know my preference is for equalisation at 18, a view that is shared by a broad spectrum of society – from ‘religious’ types like myself to gay activists.
However – if the States choose not to follow that path and instead choose to equalise at 16 then on the basis of my view that legislation should be impartial I will accept it. I will not say that I positively support it though, as for reasons I’ve stated previously I think 16 is too young for anyone to be making decisions about sexual activity.
I appreciate this might sound like I’m splitting hairs with you but I’m sure you understand that there is a subtle difference between “accepting” something and “supporting” it.
Incidentally, for the record I supported raising the AOC for heterosexuals to 18 before this whole thing started. This debate has merely afforded me the opportunity to air those views in an appropriate context. It wouldn’t have really fitted in with the Suez debate, or the runway extension!
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That’s a fair enough reply Paul and I accept your differentiation between support and acceptance.
Re the snowball’s chance, yes I don’t believe in hell but I like the expression.
Cheers
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Thanks Martino.
I’ve been listening to the debate on the radio this morning. It was interesting to note more than one Deputy expressed my concern about the discrepancies between age-related laws (e.g. smoking, drinking, marriage, sexual activity). Deputy Dave Jones also made the excellent point that 16 year olds should be named in relation to court cases – if they are given responsibility as adults they should be treated as such.
I think it was Deputy Mary Lowe who argued that a report should deal with this and set a general age of ‘adulthood’ for the island. I welcome this suggestion and, if the States decided that the age of ‘adulthood’ is 16 and equalised all age-restricted matters along this line then I would support this.
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Bee Lover:
You make reference to a law of physics. I make reference to old age values, and the fact that over time values have changed. Your comparison doesn’t really make sense in this respect. It would be akin to suggesting that because the law of gravity existed in the 17th century, we would not berate those who think burning witches should be re-introduced.
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