Keeping 18 as age of gay consent ‘would be a PR disaster’
Wednesday 10th March 2010, 2:29PM GMT.
GUERNSEY’S reputation would be damaged if it failed to equalise the gay age of consent to 16, a national human rights campaigner has said.
Peter Tatchell said that if the island did not adopt the Home Department’s proposals to bring the law into line with that for heterosexuals, it would be a public relations disaster.
‘Some people may decide they don’t want to holiday in Guernsey if they feel it is prejudice. Genuine democracy respects the rights of its minorities,’ he said.
Mr Tatchell has since 1967 campaigned for human rights, democracy and global justice all over the world. He was pleased Guernsey was considering reducing the gay age of consent from 18.
Howeve, prominent churchgoer Roy Sarre has voiced his opposition to the plans.
He said he would be contacting all deputies to ask them to reject the Home Department’s proposal. Speaking for himself and his wife, Mr Sarre encouraged islanders to voice their opinion on the issue.
‘Next they will be talking about civil partnerships and then after that it will be on to children being adopted into civil partnerships,’ he said.
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I have read the whole artical in the Press and Roy Sarre who is against the proposal asks for Islanders opinions. Well my opinion is which century does he and his wife live in? It is a part of life now and has been for a long time and will carry on even with narrow minded people like the Sarres being against it, so carry it through States so as not to criminalise youngsters be it male or female.
ps I am not gay but happily married
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Yes,I agree,carry it through,the decline of our Christian Civilization tells us that worse(or to some better)is in the pipeline anyway!
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Good news for paedophiles however.
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So much for Human Rights—God help you
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Andy, care to explain how this is ‘Good news for paedophiles’?
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Roy Sarre is an irrelevant throwback to an era of intolerance and bigotry and ignorance. So are you Andy if you think that way. Peter Tatchell is absolutely right: “Genuine democracy respects the rights of its minorities”
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It won’t surprise anyone to learn that I’m not one of Mr Tatchell’s greatest fans however his citizens arrest attempt on Robert Mugabe makes him welcome round my house for dinner any time! I also think he’d be great conversation – he must have a few interesting stories to tell.
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Andy – I’m no supporter of homosexuality and my posts on the other thread will show I support equalisation by raising the age to 18.
Nevertheless, the ludicrous scaremongering accusation that lowering the age of consent will unleash a band of rampaging homosexual paedophiles has no grounding.
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Andy:
What a ridiculous and unintelligent comment. The gay age of consent being lowered to 16 yrs has nothing to do with paedophilia at all. You have quite successfully demonstrated that you don’t know what the term ‘paedophile’ means.
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The fact that they are still “debating” the age of consent and have not yet equalised it is utterly disgusting and the reason I left the Island (born and raised on Guernsey). Guernsey has always been behind the times when it comes to human rights and Gay people, I was even laughed out of the Greffe when I asked whether there would be an opportunity for civil partnerships in the near future. (24 and now happily married overseas!)
The worst thing is people stil associate Gay people with paedophiles which is disgusting. I’m glad to be off the rock – the world has so much more to offer than Guernsey and to be perfectly honest nothing would please me more than for the Island to sink along with all the small minded idiots that live there (the nicer open minded ones can board the life raft to safety :-) )
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If someone is homosexual whats wrong with consent at 16, they have a right to their natural sexuality just as hetrosexuals do.
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The discrimination in Guernsey Law on Buggery is against the 90% who are not homosexuals as it is not an offence for homosexuals to indulge in Buggery but it is an offence for all others. In plain language a male can be buggered but not a female. The whole law should be scrapped. Intercourse between men and women is needed for the continuation of the human race; buggery between men is has no useful function whatsoever, it is merely self-gratification
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Cher Eugene
A most enlightened view you have there. Using your logic should oral sex be banned? Kissing? Massage? Any type of foreplay? Surely those activities are not necessary for procreation?
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Cher Eugene
I take it you are also in favour of banning sexual relations if either male or female partner is infertile ? Because that is also purely for gratification and will not help continue the human race ……
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Cher Eugene:
What an odd post. Are you actually against things that exist purely for self-gratification, or were you just making a point?
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It’s high time we brought the age of consent into line with the UK. Keeping the age of consent at 18 is not going to stop people being gay. Not only that, we need to “come out” and stop pretending that homosexuality doesn’t exist in Guernsey. Let’s open up and have a dialogue so that young gay people feel safe and can be themselves. It’s time to stop the next generation turning into bigots and holding the ridiculous views of the previous poster, Andy – Paedophilia and homosexuality are completely different things Andy.
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Martino
There are a lot of well reasoned arguments for equalising the age of cosent here. Alas, yours is not one of them. Merely attacking someone and labelling them as intolerant irrelevant bigots, simply because they hold different beliefs to you actually demonstrates your own weaknesses.
Tolerance means you have the ability to do whatever it is you want to do that I don’t agree with and I won’t try to, I don’t know, burn you at the stake for it.
Tolerance does not mean that in addition to the above I have to acknowledge that your behaviour is just as right as mine in my eyes.
That precludes the possibility of anyone standing up for whatever convictions they possess.
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Until this topic came up I had no idea that the age of consent here was unequal. There is no rhyme or reason for it to be so.
It is also news to me that Civil Partnerships are not recognised here either. Why not? 2 people making a loving commitment to each other is hardly going to lead to the breakdown of civilisation as we know it. Is it?
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Ha ha ha……….They really have no idea what happens in the UK let alone in places like LA/sydney.
1. Uk schools support the demise of homophobia at all ages and levels.
2. gay people are a minority targeted to foster and adopt.
3. gay people can get married-its a piece of paper which says you are commited for life.
4.Andy, Cher and Sarre…….the dark ages want your opinions back.
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Cher Eugene,
If I understand your post correctly, you are in favour of buggering women?
Personally I believe the law has no place in the bedroom between consenting adults, of any gender.
Do you agree with that broader principle?
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Billythefish, the one thing we should not tolerate is intolerance. Sarre’s odious views, and yours, should be irrelevant in this day and age. Hopefully the States will confirm that this is the case.
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“Tolerance does not mean that in addition to the above I have to acknowledge that your behaviour is just as right as mine in my eyes. That precludes the possibility of anyone standing up for whatever convictions they possess.”
Excellent point billythefish. This debate has inadvertently raised issues of human rights far broader than the age of consent. Issues concerning the rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religious expression – both of which are enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights – are also at stake here.
The case of Dr Paul Williams’ letter to the GP has really brought this to the fore. I have noticed that another Facebook campaign has begun seeking to get Dr Williams suspended and struck off following his recent letter – despite him making it clear that his opinions were his own and not those of the GMC.
For the record I find his views linking homosexuals and paedophiles distateful and unfounded. Furthermore, although I agree with his views on homosexuality, I support the equalisation of the age of consent for reasons I’ve detailed in other posts.
That’s not the point though – it shouldn’t really matter what people think about Dr Williams’ opinions. It is a matter of his rights to freedom of speech and religious expression – foundational rights of our society and ones our forefathers of different faiths and none fought and died for.
If we rightly equalise the homosexual age of consent then call for a doctor to be struck off for voicing his personal disagreement on personal and religious grounds, we are simply replacing one tyranny with another. Human rights are universal, and as Mr Tatchell says “genuine democracy respects the rights of its minorities” – ALL of them.
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As a boy I remember in the 30s how certain gentlemen used to hang around the public convieniences trying to seduce young lads,we used a well known expression to describe these creatures.Since then I have always called a spade a spade,or a pervert a pervert,wrap it up as you may.And I agree,what goes on in the privacy of peoples homes is their business,but I for one don’t want to know about it!I also note that SOME who snipe at other peoples opinions use Taliban methods of hiding their identity,so I would say,if you have the courage of your convictions,stand up like a man and say who you are!
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I fail to see how this could be a PR disaster for visitors, quite the reverse,Lyndon and the Boys are busy dispeling the rumours, that we are a badly regulated finance center,the last thing we need at the moment is outsiders thinking we all prefer botty sex
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Toni Bandinee:
In fairness, I think we’re at far greater risk of ‘outsiders’ thinking we’re a backward, slow thinking and even slower reacting society run by inept yocals who call themselves politicians!!
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Donald – it’s not the 1930′s, sorry to disappoint. I’m not sure why you refer to ‘Spades’ and I assume ‘Pervert’ refers to gay people. I’m not interested what goes on in your home though I have little expectation that it’s very interesting?
Toni – don’t worry – equalisation of the age of consent won’t mean you have to join in so you can move away from the wall, you’ll be perfectly safe.
Either of you got anything sensible to say?
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Martino
Again, you prove my point. Where above have I indicated that my views might concur with the (apparently) odious Sarre??
Actually, I know Sarre and I don’t agree that he’s odious. I require you to be tolerant of the fact that I believe Sarre isn’t odious. If you disagree and still think he is odious you are clearly an intolerant bigot.
hmmm….
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Martino – I actually didn’t think what you said to provoke billythefish was that bad! Still he made a good point about tolerance nonetheless. I wonder what your thoughts are on this: I think there is a difference between having the right to hold and express strong convictions (say on religious grounds) and wanting those enshrined into law.
Take yours truly for example: my views on homosexuality are based on my religious beliefs. It is therefore my human right (according to the UN Declaration) to express those views, however distasteful they might be to others. Would you agree?
Finally, on a more personal level: in my case I do not wish to violate others’ rights by having those views imposed on others via legislation. Would you therefore agree that, although fervently opposing them, to not accept someone else’s strongly held convictions is in fact also intolerant – the very thing you oppose so strongly?
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Truth Man
I think you are right, however the world is not perfect, some do discriminate and sadly this does effect business,the Muslims are shown respect by some Banks stopping the Christmas party,the Germans prefer Independance day to our Liberation Day ,some days, when particular clients visit,we give the Brown Hats the day off.Its certainly not ideal,but we have to pamper the client to gain their Business.
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Dont be naive please most male paedophiles are bi sexual and allowing them to legally have anal sex with minors wont help things.
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One has to worry that a Doctor, in a position of some responsibility in the community, should cite such discredited sources as ‘The Fight for the Family’ in support of such complete nonsense that “homosexuals….represent a very high proportion of convicted paedophiles”
One source for such nonsense is discredited psychologist Paul Cameron, who operates the Family Research Institute in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Cameron is responsible for many of the most bizarre allegations about gays and lesbians, such as that gays constitute 44 percent of sexual mass murderers, that two-thirds of gay men “ingest biologically significant amounts of feces,” and that being a gay male takes 30 years off one’s life…..
So, no, don’t criticise the good Doctor for his religious views – but one does have to wonder at the quality of the research he believes in….
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Doug,
I had no hidden meaning when I used an old phase “call a spade a spade”.Like wise I could not think up another name to describe someone who’s intent in life was to seduce young boys!And I would say that what goes on in my home would be described as “what goes on in most Christian homes”
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Toni Bandinee:
My point had rather more depth than you have read in to it! The issue is that the ‘clients’ you speak of are almost certainly from societies that are firmly in the year 2010, whereas here in Guernsey, we are not. Yet.
I think your fear that ‘clients’ will think we are all into “botty sex” and go elsewhere is totally unfounded. I think it far more likely your clients will read posts such as yours and come to the conclusion that we still burn witches, think the world is flat, and consider homosexuality to be an illness.
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My earlier post was merely an observation that, up to 1983 the law criminalised ALL acts of buggery, in public and in private. From 1983 a homosexual act between males in private, whether buggery or an act of indecency was no longer an offence but buggery involving a woman remained, and still is, a criminal act. Thus discrimination exists but no outcry about this has been made.
The other comment related to the fact that all living things come into existence with two imperatives, to continue to live and to continue the species. As far as humans are concerned the latter, until recent times was a dangerous and painful experience. If the initial action was not pleasurable it might not be undertaken a second or subsequent time and because only half the human race are female each has to produce, on average, two children otherwise the human race would eventually disappear. The “straight” humans, of course, have to do more than two children to cover for the, alleged, 10% of the population who are “gay.” Incidentally I object to the hijacking of a lovely word like “gay”; why couldn’t you have used “sad”.
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doc william’s opinions are, i think, based on his honest but fundamental religious beliefs. he is opposed to homosexual acts, i think, because of what his (own particular) bible says (and which he chooses to interpret as its only meaning). I seem to recall he is also opposed to homeopathic medicine because he thinks it is one step away from sorcery or something similar (again that would be based on superstitious religious fundamentalism). that was a shame, because he could and should have more easiy and credibly rubbished it with scientific argument. although the doc must be free to believe what he wants to believe, it does worry me that he might struggle to be genuinely objective when a gay or lesbian, aetheistic, homeopath turns up with with a nasty little nettle rash. he should stop obsessing with anal sex – it is surely the quality and equality of the emotional relationship that will matter , not if the sex is anal, vaginal, oral, virtual, manual or of the armpit (armpital)( the latter i am told is not to be underestimated). if adults consent in private, what bits they use surely does not matter, as long they both agree and respect. that is not rocket science surely?
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“So, no, don’t criticise the good Doctor for his religious views – but one does have to wonder at the quality of the research he believes in”
Good call there FlyingScot and one that, on the whole, I agree with. For starters, the book “The Fight for the Family” was published in 1999 so if nothing else the statistics he quotes are 11 years out of date. Even so, as the majority of us know, statistics rarely tell the whole story – there is an easy to read yet informative article on the flaws of statistics here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1091350
It is unfortunate that Dr Williams chose to incorporate that allegation into his case as, although I disagreed with his recommendation to maintain the status quo, I thought the rest of his letter was well reasoned and based on his own observations and experience as a GP and father. It may not have won him many friends, but it was an opinion he was well entitled to express.
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Cher Eugene – don’t be pedantic about the use of the word “gay” to mean homosexual. The only people with a legitimate objection are the Flintstones, and perhaps the Rubbles! :-)
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To pick up on where I left off re Roy Sarre’s views about homosexuality, yes, they are odious Billythefish, extremely odious.
What he said should be put into exactly the same context as if he had said that being black, or coloured, is wrong. For me there is not a paper width of difference, morally and ethically, between condemning someone simply for the colour of their sexuality or the colour of their skin.
I do owe you one small apology Billythefish. I just fire these things off sometimes and you’re right, you didn’t indicate that you concur with Sarre’s views. I think you owe me a little apology as well, though, because I never said that Sarre the person was/is odious – I don’t know him so I was always talking about his views.
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Martino
Fair point – I too apologise.
Back to the odious view. It’s odious to you perhaps, but not necessarily to others.
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Donald
I suspect that most of the men hanging around the public toilets in the 1930′s were only interested in seducing each other and fearful of arrest and imprisonment for simply being homosexual – oh the good old days eh Donald? Bigotry enshrined in law – nirvana indeed.
You probably remember Alan Turing? A dead pervert was a good pervert?
Sorry to say the world only spins forwards mate.
Christian home? A friend of mine was raped by her step father at 13, a minister and another attracted the unwelcome attention of a priest. So I really am not sure ‘Christian’ leads to an assumption of wholesomeness.
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Paul le P. Would love to have a link to the Facebook site you refer to
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Cher Eugene – you be ‘sad’ if you like but I’m not.
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No problem Judy. Obviously I don’t agree with it’s sentiments but in the interests of free speech here it is:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=363846823449&ref=mf
Doug, your comment “So I really am not sure ‘Christian’ leads to an assumption of wholesomeness” is sadly true.
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Good, sensible, humane letter from Patrick Moorshead in today’s GP. A useful antidote to what he charitably describes as Dr William’s ‘scare mongering’. As a Dr, Dr Williams should be relying on far more robust sources than he does.
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Please sign up. Our petition to the UK government on raising the age of gay consent:-
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/gay-consent/
Your help would be fabulous.
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Truth Man
I fully except your points raised,however some religious groups still find this act offensive,so we act accordingly.The Catholic church is amongst the biggest land owners,large sums of money.I am neither homophobic,nor member of the BNP in fact i own several CDs by Sir Elton John,The Pet Shop Boys & U2 i also support Chelsea FC .
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I grew up on the island but escaped when I was 25 11 years ago, I simply cannot believe that the same narrow minded, homophobic bigots are still keeping the place in the dark ages, fearing what they don’t and won’t understand, it’s 2010 and the world is a wonderful place, you should try joining in sometime.
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Just hear Sarre on Radio G and it was, indeed, odious scaremongering stuff, none of it based on science and independent research but all on his own wacko creationist nonsense views. Rubbish like specifically gay diseases and trying to paint a picture of legions of gay couples lining up to adopt ‘innocent’ children. Why is anyone giving any credence whatsoever to this man?
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S.M.
Why do you waste your time on such ridiculous matters? There is zero chance of your petition working and anyone with an modicum of intelligence can see that, do you really think the UK Government is going to actively promote inequality between gay and straight people.
As for Sarre, he and his fellow crackpots are not even worth paying any attention to.
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@Paul le Page “Obviously I don’t agree with it’s sentiments”
Paul – I too was sceptical, but reading through the posts, what seems to concern most people are not Dr William’s religious views, to which he is entitled, but his promotion of a downright lie, that “homosexuals….represent a very high proportion of convicted paedophiles” based on a book so bad it would be laughable if people in positions of authority in the community such as Dr Williams did not take it seriously.
Replace ‘homosexuals’ with ‘Jews’ or ‘Blacks’. Now how does it read? Its no truer.
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dr williams is my doctor an the best one at that he is allowed his say like many ppl in guernsey can have his say. someone on facebook as set up a group get williams struck off its wrong eveyone is allowed to say wat they think what if it was a police had said that???? whould they try an get them struck off?????? mmmmmmm i think not well it a silly thing at the end of it he is not in the wrong
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@Phil – I suggest you read the ‘signatories’…..looks like someone is having a heroic wind up!
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S.M.
I think you need to vet your signatories a little more carefully. The 10th guy (Teekol) just might be a made up name…..:-)
Perhaps the well known Scotsman, Ben Doon, will lend you his support in due course.
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S.M. – Why?
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Flying Scot – just out of interest, what position of authority does Dr Williams have? As far as I am aware he is a GP and i think maybe a deacon and a lay preacher? I dont think he is next in line to replace El Commodore Trott? He is entitled to his views, and has the freedom to express them as much as I have to say I hate Blue Smarties. Am I smartiest? am I blueist? Who knows? But I am entitled to say it – and you are all entitled to disregard or subscribe to my view.
As it goes, men arent my cup of tea, but if Mrs Golden Brown wanted to be adventurous, id be all up for that. Live and let live.
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Flying Scot
Just looked at the names, I see what you mean! Some cracking ones there, very amusing.
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@Golden Brown. Dr Williams did not write to the GP in his personal capacity, but as a ‘general practitioner’….and then proceeded to make claims about the pathology of paedophilia, namely that “[it] is a fact [that] homosexuals… represent a very high proportion of convicted paedophiles”.
And what evidence did the Doctor use to support this ‘Fact’.
The Lancet?
The British Medical Journal’?
No. Why not?
Because it is not a ‘fact’. Its hate used to perpetuate the oppression of a minority.
He can’t claim expertise on one hand, as a ‘general practitioner’ then spread nonsense on the other masquerading as ‘fact’, without being called to account.
Its really very simple, a ‘general practitioner’ should know better – and that he does not is a legitimate cause of public concern.
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Had to laugh at the Teekol name! Glad to see humour is still alive and well, even with such emotive subjects.
FlyingScot – point taken. Still I’m not sure he’s committed an offence so heinous to have him struck off as a GP. Perhaps a rap on the knuckles and a lesson in statistics would be slightly more proportionate than striking someone off because they’ve used some dodgy research to make an erroneous point?
Actually, it doesn’t matter what I or anyone else thinks. If someone genuinely believes he is guilty of professional misconduct or malpractice, they should make a complaint to the GMC and let them decide.
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I wonder if, not so long ago when Roy Sarre had his shop which sold “feminine” goods, he refused service to any male who wished to buy scent etc, of course he didnt, had made money from the people he says he disaproves of, the same goes for Ron Le Moignan who previously had plently to say on the subject of paedophiles, yet his daily business (which i think he still runs) supplies the very goods that allow the people he despises to contact each other .
I am gay , 47 and as previously stated the age of consent is of no interest to me as I am attracted to people of my own age, at the time I “came out” i was 16 and gay sex was totally ILLEGAL then. i am pleased things have changed for the better , yes I would love civil partnerships to be sorted out as I would happily be one of the first to have my photos published in the GP. I am G(ood) A(s) Y(ou) and in many cases better.
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If you want another titter at the bigots’ expense check this video of Sacha Baron Cohen a.k.a. Bruno interviewing a ‘gay converter’ pastor in the US bible belt. Priceless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazrAzBP_0I
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i also listened to roy sarre, the oddly self-appointed, all-knowing master of human behaviour, on the wireless this morning and concluded as follows -
one – he came across as somewhat defunct and no longer capable of his task. if you are gonna preach of sod’em and gorblimey, at least have some fire in your belly mr s.
two – regardless of his ineffectual guff, he seemed utterly devoid of understanding how offensive he was being. who on earth are you to stand up and condemn civil partnerships mr sarre? by whose authority? your minority congregational and choir leading is not enough, nor is US right wing fundamentalism.
three – witch-burning prejudice was badly wrapped in comfy nice-old-blokeness.
three – gary burgess could have and should have wiped the floor with him if the producer had allowed enough time. and gary knows it.
four – gary burgess should have given him a smack (now, i know violence is not the way foward but the sound of bigotry being briefly battered would, nevertheless, have have raised a cheer island-wide).
five – the ghosts of the final solution are not yet laid. shoulders to the wheel folks.
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Mr Sarre should consider the the fact that we can legally buy a copy of Gay Times on a Sunday , or indeed any pornographic magazine , but if he attempts to buy a bible he will be prosecuted , NOW who has the problem ???
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Martino – thanks for that. The Pastor was very unconvincing. God forbids him contact with men or he has no interest because he’s straight? He only ever quoted the former. I wonder if he’ll ever crack open the closet door?
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Looks like Dr Williams claims have made the front page of today’s GP…..
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If Mr Sarre is really so strongly opposed to gay sex then I would have thought he’d be all in favour of gay marriages … after all it’s a well known fact that married people hardly ever have sex …
:)
I am eagerly awaiting his campaign against Ormering ( which a flick through Leviticus last night showed me was also against the will of God … )
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You have to laugh at the wierdo in Town this lunchtime – can’t even reference the correct chapter of Leviticus!
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I think it is time that this law is brought in. Just becasue someone has a different sexual orientation, it doesn’t mean that they should have different rights – they should be allowed to have sex at 16. This should be the same with all other rights. The issue of gay marriage has been brought up and I also belive that Guernsey should recognise and allow this. After all, all people are supposedly equal.
It is good to see that issue is being discussed (if a little behind the times) and I think that the States should do the right thing and grant equal rights, not just for consenting sex but for other gay issues such as marriage and adoption, and anything else they can think of that currently isn’t equal. It’s about time we see some social change on the Island.
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so many narrow minded ppl.get into the real world
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Mr Sarre and spouse are entitled to their opinions, however bigoted and ignorant they may be, in my view. What happened to “love thy neighbour” Mr Sarre, or have you wiped that important part of the gospels you preach so fervently from your selective mind.
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Doug,
My schoolday chums and I knew perfectly well what these creatures were after.I also clearly remember one of their names,but I won’t name him in case some of his relatives have the same problem with their “genes”.As to the rape etc,they certainly did not take place in a “Christian”home.Interestimg to note,but in Europe there are a spate of cases coming to light in Catholic schools where young boys have been sexually molested by men.As we can argue about this for ever and a day this is my final word,I only wish to say thanks to Cher for that appropriate word “sads”!
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Well i have read some of the objections against equalising the Gay Ahe of Concent to 16 and i am astounded by the old fashioned,So -called Christian objections.Firstly to Andy saying Good News For Pheadophiles?What planet does this guy live on? 99% of Childabusers are Hetrosexual and in the family unit.Secondly the so -called Christians are NOT Christians the miss out the most important commandment Jesus told all of us Love Thy Neighbour As You Have Loved Me.He did not exclude Gay People.
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kevin o’leary
While i dont dissagree with the tone of your post, i dont really know how you get your 99% figure as most child molesters dont seem to get caught for what they do?. I also think where you have that kind of low life scum they dont really care who they abuse be it male or female?.
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