Incinerator deputy gets phone threats
Monday 15th March 2010, 1:00PM GMT.
DEPUTY TONY SPRUCE has been subjected to threats of violence as a result of his requete to revisit the waste decision.
The allegations came to light during yesterday’s BBC Guernsey radio phone-in on which Deputy Spruce was a guest speaker.
His wife called the show to highlight that the couple’s phone had not stopped ringing since he submitted the requete, which is set to make the States vote again on the decision to dump the planned incinerator.
Mrs Spruce said many callers had been supportive of his move, many had been against it and some had been abusive.
Deputy Spruce (pictured) confirmed that he had also been threatened with physical abuse. ‘It’s not been nice,’ he said.
Advocate and former deputy Peter Ferbrache was also on the phone-in and said it was disgraceful that deputies could be abused in such a way.
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Mr Spruce, I’m sure you know that becoming a deputy does involve you speaking to those that are very much against your decision, it comes with the job. You have to see both points of view, not go complaining to the Guernsey Press because you’ve had abuse.
I’m pleased people are calling him up and sharing their points of view with him, this incinerator isn’t right for the island, and Spruce here is just wasting even more of the tax payers money, discussing what they discussed last week. He deserves what he’s getting!
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Let me first say I am not a member of the campaign group, but an individual who happens to agree with their aims. I also totally disassociate myself from any form of threats to any Deputy over any issue. Forceful argument and facts are the way forward, taking the people with you, lose the majority of them as is happening here and even if you win, you lose.
Sunday phone-in 14th March 2010 with Sue Coryndon, guests are Deputy Tony Spruce and Advocate Peter Ferbrache.
1:18.18 (BBC iplayer) into the phone-in, a question from the member of the public:
Brian: “An overwhelming majority of people don’t want Suez, we don’t want Suez, its too expensive, its too big. The question is, does he not think people have a long memory and he should represent the people, clearly the people don’t want this requete.
Sue C: Brian’s bringing the attention to surveys that have been done, overwhelmingly against what your doing. You should be representing that.
Deputy Spruce: Well I can answer that one quite easily, There is a campaign group set up and Peter said earlier everybody’s entitled to lobby and that’s correct. There’s a very well coordinated campaign group which I understand Peter’s actually representing.
Advocat Ferbrache: I do represent that group, as a lawyer I do, that’s why I haven’t said to you one way or another, I’m pro or anti Suez, so I’m just talking about it, so I do, I accept it, 100% correct.
Deputy Spruce: This campaign group and I’ve got it here the names of everybody on it, this is their circular to their group which has seventy people who have been bombarding this phone-in for months about this subject, this is people that completely disagree with the Suez, that’s their right, but that doesn’t mean that their representative of the whole Island, I’m getting hundreds of phone calls and representations supporting what I’m doing, (perhaps Deputy Spruce would like to itemise the hundreds of calls in support that he is getting against those who are against) for either democracy reasons or the vote or the importance of the project and all the rest of it but for somebody to say that a submarine survey which immediately went on the web, these seventy people are straight on, it completely influences anything that ………
( Submarine survey 538 voted, Guernsey individuals, not much influence from the campaign seventy you mention. The same would apply to the Guernsey Press survey. There’s not much doubt that about 78% of the population are against the requete and Suez and would like to go for waste minimalisation and that Deputy Spruce and his group are way out of step with Public opinion)
Interrupted by Brian who moves on to his second question, nothing to do with incinerator.
The two hour phone-in, which was almost totally on the Spruce requete only had one call in favour of the requete. Mrs Spruce.
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GG – “He deserves what he’s getting!” Are you kidding?!
Deputies do not sign up for abuse and he in no way deserves this! It must be very hard to go against popular opinion to do what you think is right and although we may not agree with him it does not entitle people to be abusive.
If members of the public behave in this way it is much more likely that we will get the government we deserve and more and more people who would make great deputies will not go anywhere near the job, something that is happening already.
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GG your comments are outrageous…
Its people like you that stop people running for office in the first place…
Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion, however getting physical threats on your FAMILY phone is not acceptable…
No matter what anyone does in the States (& I am a massive critic of the current States) no-one should pick up their phone in their family home & be subjected to that..
For you to say it comes with the job is a pathetically foolish remark, & I suggest it sums you up as a person also…
I Think the police should have been called & the threats investigated…
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No I’m not kidding, he does deserve what he’s getting, he’s wasting the money of tax payers, and at the same time going against the parish he represents. He even lives in Vale, and AFAIK most of those living in Vale are against the planned incinerator.
Maybe he doesn’t deserve abusive threats, but that comes with the job, expect it.
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GG
I agree with everything you said …
EXCEPT THE LAST FIVE WORDS
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Fair play to Spruce. He’s highlighting how out of date and out of touch the States are with public opinion.
If his requete gets though, surely someone will just file an opposing one and we’ll go on forever, with rubbish filling the streets…..
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So Mr Spruce is getting hundreds of phone calls?
So useing the example of some of the pro-suez group on here, that means, 59,000 either dont have a phone, dont know his number or are against suez?.
Many many thousands are against the plant which he seems to think aren`t worth listening too because we know nothing, but he gets a few hundred (which i doubt) who appear are worth listening too?.
Didn`t one deputy say they had so many calls from the public not to go ahead with suez and not one in favour? Strange isn`t it?.
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He has surely complained to the Police, with telephone records readily available and even good old last number caller on most telephones, so where is the problem? Call me a cynic ( but with these States members who can blame me) but is this another smoke screen of ‘poor old me and I’m just doing my job!’.
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Gary
i still find it odd that the anti-Suez lobby are happy to claim a significant proportion of the ‘silent majority’ to their cause …. But if the pro-Suez lobby do the same they are shot down in flames.
There is an overwhelming amount of doubt as to the actual overall public opinion on this matter. There is a petition and a few surveys that account for about 20% of the total population against Suez. That is the only measure we have ….. Anything else is conjecture based on hearsay .
I’m not saying there isn’t significant opposition to Suez … Just that we don’t
actually know how big ( or little ) it is.
Getting back on topic ….. Anyone who thinks threats of violence against politicians is acceptable doesn’t deserve the right to vote IMHO …
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This bothers me.
Spruce intimated on the talk show that he knew that the people who he claims had threatened him were part of the organised oposition.
By this, I assume he means, on the list of 70 he refered to.
He claims that this is serious and is affecting his family as they are so worried.
At the same time he says he will not complain or contact the police.
I have to question if any of this actually happened, or is it another desperate act by a desperate man, to get some pity support?
I don’t support this kind of action, if it has happned, it just seems a bit weird to me.
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GG, “AFAIK (as far as I know) most of those living in Vale” would want to distance themselves from both of your absurd posts.
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Protest Against the Incinerator!
Wednesday 24 March at 08.50 am on the Court Steps.
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before we take Mr Spruce’s words as absolute gospel, would it not be worth considering what we would do if we and our families were intimidated by anonymous threats…..
quietly call the Police, doing as little to inflame the situation as possible, and leave it to them (to trace telephone records, relatively easy), or make a public huge hoo-ha about how terrible it is and clearly intimating that an individual should not be targeted for ‘only doing their job’…
in an ideal world where everyone is perfect and rational, confident in the knowledge that their representatives are hearing what they say and representing their views, that may be the case, but in this situation, where he is determinedly refusing to listen and doggedly pursuing this requete to overturn what’s ALREADY BEEN DECIDED (as it wasn’t the answer he wanted), it is entirely unsurprising to me that certain frustrated individuals have figured that as signing petitions and making a polite stand against him didn’t work, they are going to pursue more direct tactics (rightly or wrongly).
Regardless of how it’s expressed, a large swathe of our island have made it clear – WE DO NOT WANT THE INCINERATOR – and object greatly to Mr Spruce’s pig-headed ignorance, which we will all still be paying for long after he’s left office….
what amazes me is that he STILL refuses to acknowledge this…
the burning question (pardon the pun) is WHY?
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Steve Le Cheminant
I too was wondering just how much substance is behind this.
Aren`t the police always appealing to the public to support them with reporting anti social behaviour?.
But if it is true then it is wrong.
Toby
I think we get the message by now;)
although most of us do know what the vast majority think just by speaking to people on the street, i`ve had three so far who is in favour, how many you had?.
I also think (but hope i`m wrong) that Bernie will be supporting Mr Spruce behind the scenes, i wouldn`t be that suprised if it was his idea.
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Sorry if I offended your Mrs Spruce, woops I mean Adey!
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bcb
I would frankly be amazed if you didn’t run into someone in the street who was opposed to Suez. Unless you run into 65,000 people in the street however you still can’t say for sure what the majority, let alone everybody thinks.
You might think you know my opinions for instance, but you are quite possibly wrong. Whilst I’m not particularly anti Suez I’m not particularly pro Spruce. I would much rather decisions were left alone – whatever way they go. The only good this debate can do is provide a majority decision ( ie at least 24 votes ) either way and hopefully put an end to all this nonsense.
All the continued debate seems to be doing however is driving apart what little consensus there was ….. and bringing out the worst in everybody.
There are sadly times when I am glad I’m not a true Guernseyman – as a ‘foreigner’ ( all be it ‘naturalised’ after 35 years ) I can distance myself from the hate, spite, personal abuse and bigotry that seems to be rife in what I would otherwise love to call “my” island …..
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Toby
To a certain extent you are right we can not be totally sure. Without something like a referendum we can only take the information we have at hand and the impressions we get from the people we speak to on a daily basis.
So, we have the Submarine survey, 78% against the Spruce requete.
The Guernsey press survey 78% against the Spruce requete.
The Sunday Phone in, two hours when pro Spruce requete could have phoned in, the only one who phoned in in favour was Mrs Spruce.
I made a point of speaking to about 50 people in the 10days following the debate, a total cross section of society, two were infavour of the requete, three didn’t care one way or another, the remainder were against the requete.
Deputy Spruce’s actual words on the phone in were that he had recieved hundreds of calls in support. Where are these people when it comes to surveys and phone-ins.
We are all entitled to our own opinions, but I get the impression that the 78% is not far out on those who want the Spruce requete to fail.
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Toby
If 38 votes were not enough, why do you think 24 would be?
I assume you mean if 24 vote “pour” Spruce will see it as a democratic majority.
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Toby
There are sadly times when I am glad I’m not a true Guernseyman – as a ‘foreigner’ ( all be it ‘naturalised’ after 35 years ) I can distance myself from the hate, spite, personal abuse and bigotry that seems to be rife in what I would otherwise love to call “my” island …..
Are you really suggesting it is only the locals that are acting in a way that you suggest above?. How do you know this?.
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Thanks to Toby for so perfectly exhibiting how ignorance and xenophobia this island is apparently entrenched in comes from both ‘sides’…
in the righteous corner, we have you, the educated, reasoned, intelligent ‘non’ local with balanced (valid) views, and in the other corner we have the ‘true Guernseyman’ who is, how did you put it (?) oh yes, generally hateful, spiteful, abusive and bigoted….
very polite, I’m sure, and an interesting observation, as according to you, ‘unless you run into 65,000 people in the street’…’you still can’t say for sure what the majority, let alone everybody thinks…’
that is, everyone apart from you, Toby, with your superior attitude, who feels entitled to make insulting, sweeping, xenophobic statements about people that YOU’VE never met.
Attitudes such as yours positively invite us welly-wearing, pitchfork wielding, lower form of life locals to be equally xenophobic (cause and effect), and the ‘typically Guernsey’ remark is, in your case, particularly well deserved…
there’s a boat that leaves in the morning….
hopefully, that will provide enough distance for you.
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I thought abuse – verbal and physical, Bigotry (Gollygate) spite and acting purely in self interest to the detrement of your voters was mainly confined to our government members. Lead by example eh?
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Scarlett
Wow! you put that a lot better than i could have although i`m sure Toby is a decent chap really;).
Did have a good laugh reading it though.
Toby
I think Mr Spruce got a bit personal when he told us that in effect we know nothing? when the opposite is tue. Is that not showing total disregard to the members of the public and other well informed “expets”?.
The worst kind of decission maker is one that is wrong but dose`nt know it.
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Total Waste asks “If 38 votes were not enough, why do you think 24 would be?
I assume you mean if 24 vote “pour” Spruce will see it as a democratic majority”
If the now infamous vote had been lost by 21 -20 then I suggest Spruce would have regarded that as democratic.
A case of if the side Spruce supports won, it was democratic, if they lost, it was undemocratic.
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Scarlett and bcb ….. Perhaps you should actually read my post before going off on one.
I did not say that the ‘true Guernseyman’ was ” generally hateful, spiteful, abusive and bigoted….”
What I said was that “hate, spite, personal abuse and bigotry … seems to be rife in what I would otherwise love to call “my” island ”
I didn’t say it only came from Guernseymen ( and women ) , I didn’t attribute it to anybody …. only that, based on the personal attacks on politicians and the attitudes to sexuality expressed by some lately, it is obviously present. And that saddens me, and if you are a true Guernsey Gal I would hope that it saddens you also.
Total Waste …. the 38-2 vote only came about because of the 21-20 vote. If the Lowe ammendment had been passed with at least 24 votes, a majority of the House, then Mr Spruce and his friends would have next to no grounds for the devisive requette they are bringing forward. Hopefully we can get at least 24 votes against and get on with things before any more time runs out …
Scarlett, as regards public opinion … I’m afraid the only way to be sure exactly what all 65,000 people on this island think is to ask all of them!!!! Whilst whatever polls and surveys there are might be ( and, as I have said many times before, probably are ) representantive, we can’t know it for sure…
There is a stonily silent majority out there – and NEITHER side can lay claim to them.
You also chastised Mr Spruce for “pursuing this requete to overturn what’s ALREADY BEEN DECIDED (as it wasn’t the answer he wanted)”.
Do you feel the same way about Deputies Kuttelwasher and Lowe, who did a similar thing last month ……. ?
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Toby
The bit you missed out in your second post was
“There are sadly times when I am glad I’m not a true Guernseyman – as a ‘foreigner’ etc
You labbled Guernseyman.
What if i had said “There are sadly times when I am glad I’m not a true foreigner – as a Guernseyman’ I can distance myself from the hate, spite, personal abuse and bigotry that seems to be rife in what I would otherwise love to call “my” island …..
What do you think that implies?.
And Toby with reading through your posts who are you trying to kid regardig you dont agree with incineration. You`ve done nothing but repeat the same stuff i.e. there`s nothing else, the silent majority and now you think we should have another vote, why?.
Your thinking is in the minority but i guess you wont accept that either.
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Bcb
what I was trying to convey, and I obviously failed dismally, is this …… In the back of my mind, however bad things seem or get, I can always delude myself that this Island, ( where extreme intolerance is openly displayed in the media by hopefully a minority, where people are personally attacked for just doing their jobs, where for that reason they are subjected to threats of violence, and those threats are deemed acceptable by others ) isn’t really my home, and so to hell with it. Although I have never really known any other home than this. If I think things are really that bad I suppose I do have Scarlett’s option of the next boat back ‘home’ ( a ‘home’ I have scarce memories of I was so young and it was so long ago.)
True Guernsey people, born and bred for generations, do not have that option.
As regards incineration …. it’s not as if I now wake up every morning cursing the fact that we don’t have an incinerator, or that before last month I rejoiced that we did. I don’t WANT one …. (Any more than I want to give away 25% of my earnings in taxes every week) ….. but in the absence of anything else I’ll take it over stuffing rubbish in the ground. Last month it looked as though we might be looking forward to something else – but now …..
Please re read my views on the requette …. the only good that can come of it is a majority of the house (at least 24) voting against it, and then Suez should be dead and buried.
Any other result and it’s a certainty someone will bring yet another requette to waste yet more of everybodys time and money.
There are a lot of double standards seemingly employed on both sides of the argument ……the antis are dead set against this re debate but were all for the last one …. And the pros vice versa ….
The pros are ( rightly ) attacked by the antis for hijacking the silent
majority ( who are as a matter of fact both silent and a majority ) …… and yet just you dare and criticise the antis for doing the same. If the antis want to claim a majority then please use the “whiskas” caveat …” 8 out of 10 islanders WHO EXPRESS AN OPINION are anti Suez” is what the survey say …. Polls can be wrong … if they weren’t the UK would currently be enjoying it’s 18th year of Prime Minister Kinnock ….
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Toby
The 21 – 20 acceptance of the Lowe ammendment is irellevant.
38 (Including Spruce) voted for the ammended Kuttelwascher requete.
If they wanted Suez all they had to do was vote against the requete.
In your earlier post you also claim that anti Suez campaigners shoot down in flames, Spruces claim that he has majority support.
What they are shooting down is the fact that Spruce consistantly claims that as only 20% of the population have registered ther oposition, that 80% must be in favour.
He then states on the radio that as a hundred people have phoned him to support him that the majority support him.
He can’t have it both ways. Neither can you.
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oh Toby, spare us. With misdirection and spin like that, you really should consider becoming a politician..
you’ll be telling us all you smoked but you didn’t inhale, next.
With regards to being pro or anti Suez, you’ve always played devils advocate against the anti’s, but are now going for the ‘voice of moderation’ tactic…more changing horses mid stream, just like our clueless leaders, who couldn’t find their *sses with both hands on them.
As for your observations about the ‘true Guernseyman’, I won’t demean myself by repeating what you said in your first post. The intimation as to who you were referring to was obvious to all (judging by the response)… apart from you as the one who wrote it (or so it seems), so perhaps it is you who should consider re-reading your comments (before posting)?
There is an unfortunate tendency in this harsh world for kindness to be mistaken for weakness, and the people of this island are generally just that, kind. With that comes an incredibly forgiving nature, and a laid back, ‘oh well..’ attitude to the many things that have happened here, from the occupation of the Germans to the occupation of the finance industry and tax exiles, that has changed our island beyond all recognition…yes, some have benefited from these changes, but many have not.
This good natured approach to life does NOT mean that we will lie down and take EVERYTHING that is thrown at us, so when we go out of the idealistic, whimsical ‘cheery, waving, obliging local’ character you prefer, and bare our teeth (that is, show another facet of our personality, we ALL have many, good and bad) about something we feel truly passionate about, it does not come as a surprise to me…even if to you, the very idea of the ‘revolting peasants’ is just too much to bear.
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Toby
You must be in limbo at times then mate? where do you call home when it`s not Guernsey?. Is the other home a better one than this one? I bet your real home (although i dont know where that is)has bent poloticians,knife crime,racisim,murder,threats to poloticians and assults on them too,and the locals shouting “? jobs for? workers. etc etc.
I dont agree with anyone makeing threats to poloticians or anyone else, But is it any worse than your “other home”?.
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I lived and worked here twelve years ago, when we left they were panicking at deferal house about what to do with the rubbish. Seems the rubbish is still in situ in Deferal House and they still do not know what to do with the refuse. Roadside recycling is the way to go coloured bins for glass, card, paper, veg waste that way everyone recycles if they do not fine them.
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Toby – How much is Suez paying you? They are buying lunch for all the deputies this Monday and Tuesday. Perhaps you should attend as a guest of honour to collect your cheque.
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I thought Deputies have had more than enough information from Suez before they voted last time, surely by accepting an invitation for lunch this is accepting a bribe? UK councils have very clear guidelines on not accepting any inducements from contractors. Anyway I thought PSD were instructed to cancel all ties with Suez after the last vote, has this not happened?
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Daniel
They are not buying lunch for all Deputies because many of us are not accepting this invitation; I did not attend the lunch they provided in France either. This is little more than a cynical move before the debate to try and get States members to change their minds and it should be seen by all States members for what it is.
As for the threats deputies receive they can get very personal at times, I know as Housing Minister that some of the verbal attacks can be quite vicious and my wife and I have had both our cars damaged as a result of the job I do, always difficult to prove I know but it is something you have to live with if you have a role in government that requires bringing forward policies that are not always universally popular. Having said that we chose this life nobody twisted our arms to stand for public office and the numbers of people who make threats is very small indeed, mostly those who disagree with you will ring you or write to you in fairly robust but mainly civilised tones.
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If Suez are wining and dining deputies before the critical debate, doesn’t it make the comment of Tony Spruce that, “I believe that as the Suez contract has been terminated and the planning application removed, a full vote of the entire Assembly should now take place” somewhat hypocritical?
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Deputy Spruce is wasting taxpayers money and showing complete contempt for the electorate. Celebrities have to handle hate mail for lessor reasons, maybe he should stop wining, grow up or get out of the States.
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Dave Jones
Cynical move? Guernsey have been taken in by the spin from the activists and so called expert the greens brought over so as a deputy should you not reconfirm that your stance is right or wrong the GUERNSEY or are you like some of the 21 voting with your heart or just to keep yourself in a job for the next election?
Am I being cynical or do I live in the real world?
The incinerator is 10 times greener than the landfill previous politicians agreed to fill and a globally accepted modern method. I recycle weekly and want to minimise my waste but we need something for the stuff not recyclable and believe me, it is significant.
Real World or Green fantasy world…or will we just ship our rubbish for someone else to deal with at extra cost to island?
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I think most deputies will see the Suez invitation for a free lunch, just prior to the debate, for exactly what it is. A large Company’s last ditch attempt to influence the opposition. If deputies were not aware of the Suez situation before the last debate then a free lunch just prior to this debate is not going to add much to their enlightenment.
The Spruce requete is ill conceived and should be shot down in flames.
Show your opposition by turning up on the Royal Court steps at 0845 on Wednesday 24th March.
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Rupert Dorey in his 22/3/10 Press letter states that the Suez proposal is overpriced and over engineered
That reminds me of the NASA story whereby the Americans spent hundred of thousands of dollars inventing a pen that could work in space while the Russians did the same job with a pencil
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PC:
The only way you can get mass-burn incineration to look remotely ok is to compare it to the one waste disposal method that is arguably worse, which is what you have done. It is SUCH a bad reason for going with Suez. Instead of comparing with ‘worst practice’, why not compare it with ‘best practice’…. but I guess we all know the answer to that!
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PC
I have listened to both side of the argument for over ten years, I do not think incineration is the answer, anything that produces hundred of tons of toxic ash is neither green nor progressive and I certainly don’t need a nice lunch to convince me of the Suez option.
I have “reconfirmed” my stance to the hundreds of people who have contacted me on this issue, yes we will need a solution for what is left ONCE we have reduced our waste stream down by several thousand tons and that will be treated by a series of small modular solutions that do not involve producing a highly toxic by product. All these alternative options are considerably greener than landfill but we will still need an inert landfill site for inert waste possibly more land reclamation.
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PC
I don’t believe you.
Please enlighten me.
What are the significant amounts of materials that cannot be recycled but can be incinerated?
Im dying to find out.
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PC,
“Am I being cynical or do I live in the real world?”
I would say both cynical and old fashioned.
15 years ago and incinerators were generally seen as the way forward … things have moved on since then. To a large extent this is what the states is beginning to realise.
I don’t know where people get the notion that alternate ideas are going to cost the island extra. It’s quite feasible / realistic that a zero waste strategy would be a significant cost saving when compared to the Suez proposal.
£260m (cost of Suez over 25 years)
£42.5m (Loss of revenue to PSD – per Billet)
£302.5m Total cost to Guernsey over 25years
Thats £12.1m per annum over 25 years and still excludes the current collection costs levied through your parish rates.
£12.1m gets you 400 staff at £30k per annum or 200 staff + £6m to cover capital investments. Thats a world class / leading level of zero waste management potential.
I can’t deny that there will a lot of effort required and perhaps ‘zero’ waste is green utopia.
I’m confident that reduction and recycling efforts will prove a better solution for Guernsey. All that remains is to keep the faith that the states will deliver the correct vote on Wednesday and will be vigilant in delivering the services and facilities needed to pursue a zero waste strategy they certainly have the cash available to do it !!
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